Ohio Mulls Academic 'Bill of Rights'

[Scurrilous]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4795751,00.html

<snip>

"College sophomore Charis Bridgman tends to keep quiet in class if she thinks her professor might disagree with her Christian-influenced ideas. The 19-year-old says schools such as her Otterbein College in suburban Columbus should be a place for open discussion, but she feels some professors make students afraid to speak up.

"They might chastise me, or not even listen to my opinion or give me a chance to explain," she said.

Professors would have to include diverse opinions in classrooms under legislation being pushed in Ohio and several other states by conservatives who fear too many professors indoctrinate young minds with liberal propaganda. Such measures have had little success getting approval in the other states.

"I see students coming out having gone in without any ideological leanings one way or another, coming out with an indoctrination of a lot of left-wing issues," said bill sponsor Sen. Larry Mumper, a former high school teacher whose Republican party controls the Legislature."

<snip>

"Mumper said he is concerned universities are not teaching the values held by taxpaying parents and students.
He questioned why lawmakers should approve funding for universities with "professors who would send some students out in the world to vote against the very public policy that their parents have elected us for."

[smoogatz]

1. Jesus freaking Christ

"Mumper said he is concerned universities are not teaching the values held by taxpaying parents and students. He questioned why lawmakers should approve funding for universities with "professors who would send some students out in the world to vote against the very public policy that their parents have elected us for."

At least he's an honest fascist. It's not that students are being indoctrinated--it's that they're being indoctrinated the wrong way.

[Tigress DEM]

23. School is for teaching one HOW to think not WHAT to think.

If "Christian" students are afraid to speak their beliefs that is their fault.

I spoke up in high school and college about my beliefs that evolution and creationism could co-exist is some manner where we in this time and place don't have all the pieces.

Recent science points to the earliest organisms to exist on Earth in the molten period arrived at once and began to make substantial environmental changes. They created oxygen and were able to survive in the harsh temperatures.

A chance meteor or the hand of God? Room either way and I say believe what you want to believe, but just don't stamp your feet up and down and say only what you believe CAN be right. Not one of us was there at the beginning so no one knows for sure. But it's a wonderful thing to discuss when you're free to do so.

It's probably the extremely strict fundamental upbrining of today's young Christian students that make them think "leftist" don't allow other's opinions to be voiced. That and quoting from the Bible doesn't get you out of homework. You still have to exercise those brain cells to get credit.

[The Flaming Red Head]

62. Creationism cannot co-exist with evolution in the teaching of biology

on a college campus. Creationism is a fairy tale not worthy of an educated mind.

[UL_Approved]

2. The crux of the whine:

"Mumper said he is concerned universities are not teaching the values held by taxpaying parents and students.
He questioned why lawmakers should approve funding for universities with "professors who would send some students out in the world to vote against the very public policy that their parents have elected us for."

Learning and education is NOT A TOOL OF THE STATUS QUO. It is about knowledge, discovery, and understanding. This GOP fool would have been one of the guys putting Galileo on trial back in the day. He would have burned Joan of Arc at the stake. And he would have put Jesus of Nazareth on the cross...

[jdj]

15. this is why we need to call them retrogressives.

because thats what they are.

They make up a past and devote all their energy trying to pull people back into it, even though "it" never existed.

they do this because with enough cultural power they can control the past.

they know the future will disprove them, whereas progressives arent' afraid of it.

And the thing is, it's not that right-wing view-points aren't allowed in class, it's that they will get slaughtered because they can't back up their facts with logic or fact.

This is what the legislators are trying to do, insulate the freeper kids from any kind of collision with reality.

[UL_Approved]

76. Word

The NAZI empire tried this, and so did various Communist dictators.

This is straight out of the 1933-present school of mind control.

Hopefully some people will get together and stop this from happening. Universities are not about feeding out myths and fiction to people.

This runs contrary to CENTURIES of academic tradition.

[knitter4democracy]

3. Would it even apply to private schools?

Otterbein is private, and my husband and I went to Mount Vernon Nazarene up the road from there, also private. That student chose that college, just as I chose mine. I often felt like I shouldn't speak up as a liberal, but that didn't keep my mouth shut. I once took on a former Marine on Hiroshima that devolved into a shouting match, and the prof didn't cut my grade for it. That's what she's most worried about--her grade. If she really cares about her faith and her ideas, she'll speak up and defend them, no matter what the cost.

I just can't feel sorry for her or her parents. What is so bad about learning to think? Isn't that what collegel is about--learning to think critically about everything, even one's own ideas? Why'd they send her to Otterbein when the Naz is up the road, then?

[smoogatz]

6. According to the full text of the article

the proposed legislation would affect public and private schools. It's just insane. I'm going to email this Mumper idiot and give his auto-responder a piece of my mind.

[mike_c]

12. and if her ideas have merit she will benefit GREATLY by...

...speaking them and defending them. I say this as an athiest ultra-leftist university professor who has been quite proud-- if a bit baffled-- by some of my students who've held different views. The key is that they articulated them well and at least attempted to debate them. The fundy christians are always the most difficult- and I presume the same is true of most religious folks-- in that their arguments usually devolve into "it's just what I believe." That's hard to deal with in a setting that values reasoned discussion and critical thinking about the merits of ideas. Still, even that can offer opportunities for self-examination and intellectual growth, both for the students who hold those beliefs and for those who discuss them.

What the young woman in the OP is missing is that college is about more than grades-- it's about learning and intellectual maturation. That's a process she has to participate in-- not simply sit in class and absorb. That some members of the Ohio state legislature would miss this point is disappointing, but not too surprising.

[knitter4democracy]

21. It's really too bad.

I mean, she's paying all that money--not to get a job at the end but to learn how to think critically. She's missed the whole point of a liberal arts education, especially one from a place like Otterbein (can you tell I was a bit jealous of their students?).

If she can't defend her beliefs even a little bit reasonably, are they really hers? If she can't explain why she believes the way she does, does she really believe it? The Church has always encouraged (at least on a monastic or clerical level) true debate and reasoning. If she were to read the early Church Fathers and Mothers, she would be astonished at how much they debated amongst themselves over every theological point. I'm not saying she has to be a modern-day St. John Chrysostom, but she should be able to speak up and defend her faith.

When I taught high school, one of the hardest lessons I had to teach was that grades are not connected to a student's ideas but how he or she wrote about them. They always wanted to say that I'd graded them down because I disagreed with them; that's a whole lot easier than admitting that one's essay writing skills stink. I had students who wouldn't speak up in class because they didn't want to "get in trouble" with me, and I constantly worked to convince them they couldn't get in trouble for debate (unless they stopped respecting me or the others around them--my only rule).

[realisticphish]

40. i dont see how it could

also, correct me if im wrong, but isnt otterbein religiously affiliated? (i.e. like Capital is lutheran, Ohio Northern methodist)


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[northzax]

50. United Methodists, according to the school website

I now assume my snob role. I can understand why she is intimidated. I wager that Orrerbein does not attract students who are born to question and taught throughout high school to argue and defend their beliefs. It is a 'comprehensive' college, not a liberal arts one. (what's the difference? fewer than 50% of students achieve a degree in the 'liberal arts' as opposed to a professional degree such as business. Economics is a liberal art. Business is a professional degree) It's not the same thing.

Students who attend professional sdchools are not looking to question and debate, they are looking to get a skill to learn a trade. I'm sure it's a fine school for what it is, but it is not a liberal arts college in the traditional sense, we shouldn't expect it to be. Frankly, if you're getting a degree in business administraiton, it's not your job to question, it's your job to follow instructions.

now my acknowledged bias. I am a graduate of a traditional liberal arts college (Colby) where professional degrees did not exist. for the measly cost of $120,000+ my degree in East Asian History and Government with a minor in Creative Writing is basically useless as a professional tool, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. You want to discuss the structures of Mongol rule in the Korean Peninsula, I'm your guy. But strangely, the market for that is not as lucrative as you'd think.

That all said. Otterbein students are recieving exactly what they expect, if they read the information closely. Go read the website, and you get a perfectly good sense of what kind of school it is. It is not a school that welcomes debate or student participation in decision making procedures, you can tell that by reading the website. It is not a school that expects its students to act like adults without supervisions, go lok at it. It is not a place that welcomes dissent. That's a shame, but that's what it is, why expect something else?

[Tigress DEM]

55. So they are using a "private school's policies" to mandate public reform?

Sounds about par for the course. Like quoting a right wing paper's misquote from a DEM and accusing the paper of having a liberal bias.

Will the insanity ever stop?? :grr:

On the whole "business school should not teach you to question" deal, I disagree, but of course I went for a Small Business Management Associate and that requires entreprenurial thinking - read outside the box.

Basics like accounting are pretty fixed (unless you go the Enron route) but creativity in Business should be encouraged. Cookie cutter corporations are the bain of American business. Every new trend and they have to go out and get it so they can inflate their stock so people "think" their worth is going up. When the truth is they don't have a clue.

[knitter4democracy]

59. I don't know about that.

Otterbein is in Westerville, which, when I was in college, had the closest coffee shop (45 minute drive away, but it was worth it!). I went to two different drama productions there, one of which was "Six Degrees of Separation," not a production for the faint of heart. Of course, they got in trouble because they cut into the stage to make the rotating stage on top of it (which rocked, btw), but I digress . . .

Otterbein was a whole lot more liberal in its student population and policies than my college, and I think there are many students there who really want a liberal arts education. Maybe that's why the students quoted in the article feels nervous about speaking out.

[northzax]

60. I would posit that anyone who is getting a liberal arts education

would not be afriad to speak out, it's the entire principle of the education. It's like a biology major who refuses to learn about cells. You can't have one without the other. Obviosuly if people are really interested in getting a liberal arts education, they should not be afraid to speak out and defend their views. If the school doesn't teach that, and demonstrate that, it's not a liberal arts education. simple as that.

[knitter4democracy]

81. I understand what you're saying, but it isn't what's happening now

Most kids I had as high school students had been indoctrinated to believe (by their parents, mostly) that college is about getting the skills and background needed for a job. Then, those kids turned around and wanted to attend the most prestigious liberal arts schools in the country--because that would give them the background supposedly needed for a job. They really didn't know what a liberal arts education was and didn't really care; they just wanted to jump through the "right" hoops to get the "right" job and live the "right" life. When I would try to talk to them about being well-rounded citizens, they would just blow me off as "unrealistic."

I don't think it's the college's fault that the students are so mercenary about their education, and I seriously doubt all or even many of the professors are at fault as well. Even at my college (let's say it's a conservative arts school), I had profs working hard to convince students that being a well-rounded citizen with a solid arts education was a worthwile endeavor in and of itself.

Let's not take one student's comment (which might've been taken out of context) and base a whole college's reputation on it.

[Lady President]

74. You're completely off the mark

I grew up down the street from Otterbein-- literally the same street, probably a mile from the center of campus. The sign of becoming a "big kid" was being allowed to walk to the campus for their yearly arts show. There's a large courtyard in the middle of the campus and probably a hundred vendors/street performers/artists spend a weekend there every year selling their goods.

Otterbein is most noted for their drama/arts department. I attended several writing workshops and was in an art show the school sponsored when I was in high school. In fact, Otterbein sponsors a yearly high school journalism conference focusing on pushing the limits, freedom of speech, debate, etc.

I didn't attend Otterbein, but I have to admit, I'm offended by your post. Otterbein is a true liberal arts school and it surprises me anyone would make such bold assertions when the clearly lack facts. (Knowing facts before speaking is something I learned from Otterbein professors.)

That being said... I was a political science major and had only conservative professors. I may have had some uncomfortable moments, but it taught me a lot. I learned to always be prepared to give the opposing argument, and to be able to defend my beliefs. It's a shame that conservatives don't want students to actually think.

[pop goes the weasel]

4. What an Orwellian bill

An Academic Bill of Rights that would, in fact, stifle academic freedom.

So Charis feels she has to keep quiet because her professor might disagree with her? Poor baby. Obviously, she doesn't understand why she should ever be subject to defending her beliefs.

Even right-wing professors I know get accused of being left-wing for the simple fact that they demand that students practice critical thinking, which includes being able to explain and defend personal beliefs as well as analyze ideas belonging to others.

[booksenkatz]

5. Since when is critical thinking "indoctrination?"

When a student is taught to think objectively about an issue, he/she learns to decide for himself how he feels about it. That most certainly can still include his or her Christian values. You can't grow if your beliefs aren't challenged. I've had many of my most deeply-held beliefs challenged over my 44 years and, after much thought and listening to all sides, I've kept some of those beliefs and have discarded others. It's how you grow. I was grateful for the opportunity have my beliefs challenged. Why are people like Mumper so frightened of this? The point of an education is not to rubber-stamp everything you were taught when you were 5 years old. Otherwise, we'd just rubber-stamp the idea of Santa Claus and never challenge it.
:eyes:

[forgethell]

18. As I understood the problem

they were NOT being allowed to express their Christian views.

[VegasWolf]

70. That's a mortal sin! n/t

[forgethell]

87. Nobody said that, but

it is a violation of their rights.

[TOhioLiberal]

37. Critical thinking becomes indoctrination...

...when one is taught to think in 'unapproved' manners, such as the world is actually round and the Earth is not the center of the universe.

It pains me that this is originating in my state. :(

[VegasWolf]

69. When one is not buying into the program? n/t

[Joanne98]

7. Why doesn't the whining little bitch go to bible college them?

[mitchum]

58. Agree!

Bob Jones, Liberty, Oral Roberts are just a few institutes of higher "learning" that value superstitous magic man in the sky belief over empiricism. She should get her ass to one of them.

[knitter4democracy]

82. Mount Vernon Nazarene is right up the road

It's a decent school, and she'd feel more at home there. I, on the other hand, should've gone to Otterbein. ;)

[VegasWolf]

72. Because she wants a REAL education? n/t

[madmom]

8. her profs MIGHT disagree with her..

she's afraid something MIGHT happen and if it does she MIGHT have to do something like stand up for what she believes instead of letting someone else do it for you.Also I thought your parents where the ones to teach you your values, by the time you get to college you should hopefully already have them.

[Coastie for Truth]

9. At Carnegie Mellon Univ

we had a prof for a required Mech E survey course -- his "weekend job" was as an Evangelical minister -- he preached in class -- hard line fundamentalism and very politically conservative (this was back when the Mellon family controlled the Trustees).

We complained - and complained and complained.

Five years later the school said students could take a FORTRAN survey class - instead of this prof's class.

I was sufficiently intimidated (and had no knowledge of Rapture or Apocalypse or Revelations) that I kept quiet in class. And, I do NOT intimidate easily.

[hughee99]

80. How the hell did he work politics into

a mechanical engineering class? I went to an engineering school in New York, and for all the engineering & math related class I took, I couldn't tell you what my professor's political or religious persuasions were. My history and social studies classes were another issue, though.

[Canuckistanian]

10. This is the kind of thinking that spawned madrassas

Fundamentalists or ANY single-issue zealots should not be dictating the intellectual discoure in places of learning.
And LEGISLATING it compounds the problem.

If ideologists want to influence education, they should do it by the rules - reasoned logical argument. Since fundamentalist logic is all over the map from death pentalty vs. abortion to peacemaker vs.warmonger to personal sacrifice vs. avaricious greed, then intellectually they need to clean their own house first.

It's commonly agreed that madrassas, intellectually, are a wasteland of narrow-mindedness and dogma. Why try to emulate that?

[smoogatz]

11. Senator Mumper's email address

[email protected]

Ohio DUers especially should drop him a note.

[QC]

13. I deal with this shit all the time.

I teach in a very conservative area, and students here are quick to bitch if you reveal your opinions on something or ask them to defend theirs. So you have to do all kinds of shifty stuff about, "Well, one could argue that ___ because ___" in order to maintain a pretense of the sort of objectivity that every thinking person knows cannot exist but every nonthinking person demands.

Don't get me wrong. I love my students and colleagues and wouldn't be doing anything else. This is the most richly rewarding job I can imagine and I look forward to going to work in the morning. But there is an increasing attitude in higher ed, from community colleges to Research I universities, that education is a business transaction and students are customers--and we all know what they say about the customer. If you pay the bill you should get the diploma. Anything that makes the customer uncomfortable--like having to consider all sides of an issue or defend a position--is a customer service failure, just like getting an overcooked steak at Outback. After all, Mommy and Daddy paid the bill, so little Brytneigh and Joshua should get what they want.

That kind of attitude, along with knuckledragger reactionary politics, is what's behind this business in Ohio and everywhere else.

[TahitiNut]

14. That's a 'diploma mill' attitude.

The pretense that already-formed opinions and already-acquired knowledge are somehow sacrosanct is totally antithetical to the very meaning of the word "education."

I wonder how accommodating Bob Jones University is (would be) of the Islamic beliefs and practices of students. :eyes:

[Tigress DEM]

30. Some teachers I had would make people look at both sides...

Objectively. Made the student look at their thought process and the other sides thought process and how they got there. Working on it like a comparison/contrast without the jaundice to prove one point better than the other.

It pissed me off, but it made me a better thinker. And it helps me when I can realize those I don't agree with may really be trying to fit their own beliefs into some life pattern they can cope with instead of just rejecting out of hand their opinions.

I am someone for instance who believes not all repubs are evil, many are just specifically uninformed on purpose by the powers that be and mislead by people they trust (parents usually) with good intentions.

I had a sweet/crazy moment this week when on Thursday the place I work for was going to let go myself and 3 other contractors on short notice because someone up high decided the 24X7 service had to go due to budget concerns. (The decision was reversed the next day, but..)

People I have known for less than 6 months came up and hugged me and wondered where they would get their leftist propoganda now. Our wild and crazy repub came over and hugged me and said that no one up there had consulted with him on who to let go. "I have a 600 page .pdf document, but YOUR name isn't on it." He was joking, I think. Anyway 2 of us tree huggers there are his "favorite liberals" and I believe if I had to rely on any repub to hide me from the modern day gestapo, he'd be a good choice.

The point to this ramble I guess is that my education and open minded upbringing make me someone who can discuss my view with most people and see multiple angles to an issue so I can help come up with solutions that save face and at the same time get the job done.

I do see we need people at the far sides of both spectrums to keep a balance, but neither side should rule the world. None of us should get our way all the time. No truly loving parent would allow that and I don't think it was God's plan either.

[Igel]

16. I'm in favor of it. Sorry, but a lot of professors expect

academic freedom for themselves and deny it to their students. I've seen dispreferred theories and papers written in them rejected with no argument allowed, no matter how well reasoned or documented. And these were grad students.

Undergrads have even less academic freedom, and I've seen some real abuses committed. I worked as a computer/web tech for a couple of years during my overly long stint in grad school, and had to deal with a lot of students working on projects, and putting together lists of links for courses. Lots of points of view were completely off limits, and professors were paranoid that I would include links on their course web site that they personally disapproved of: the students were not to even know they existed, even concerning Shakespeare or Milton, much less post-colonial literature.

Students would do prep work to present their web-based presentation topic to the professor, and come back a week later saying that they didn't even get to present what they had started to do before the idea was shot down. An example from a course of war literature illustrates the point. Americans were never the good guys, just less bad than the German Nazis; the Japanese population were routinely mislead, and instead the rulers weren't "Japanese imperialists" imperialists in Japan, unlike the European imperialists (who could be called European). One guy whose grandfather flew in WWII wanted to show American support for their flyboys ... and instead was told that was unacceptable. His project was morphed into showing how women made strides towards equality when faced with male oppression, i.e., a presentation on the WACs. He slighted the female oppression angle by showing both obstacles and limitations on the WACs, as well as the support they received and their achievements, fairly objectively. But "objective" apparently wasn't the goal. Factually correct, accurately discussing some literature, his presentation barely passed: it was too "militaristically jingoistic."

The students had complete academic freedom. To reflect the professor's point of view.

That was one professor, not the worst, just the one I had the most experience with. Most others were better; some even did give their students a fair amount of academic freedom. But the law's not written for the law-abiding.

[funnymanpants]

22. explain please

>>An example from a course of war literature illustrates the point. Americans were never the good guys, just less bad than the German Nazis;

I don't understand what you are saying here. This quote only shows a point of view. It doesn't show that the professor disallowed other points of view.

[Igel]

68. Students did preliminary work on presentations;

any that contradicted the profs views were rejected (Americans were bad, Japanese citizens were mislead, and the German Nazis were the worst). Sometimes rejection involved refocusing the presentation to show what she wanted the students to "know".

To say Americans were the good guys ... not "knowledge" or "insight", but jingoism. Even to say the American public supported the troops, without saying Americans were sexist, racist, etc., was jingoism.

Any that supported her views were well received. She was not fit to teach, in my opinion.

The faculty code of conduct she agreed to required her to grant academic freedom to her students.

The code of conduct contained no punishment for those that didn't.

It should have.

[northzax]

53. any professor who engaged in such behaviour

should be roundly criticised. Isn't that what end of the semester evaluations arefor? Any professor who would punish someone for having an opposite viewpoint, rather than for process, should not be teaching. The whole point is to learn the process by which you can formulate ideas and support them, not the idea itself. Out them. Seriously, any professor, or by extension school that supports such a professor, whould be outed so people know not to take their classes.

I (ok, my parents)frankly paid good money to have professors attack my methodology, to show me different ways of thinkingAnyone who would have punished me, via a failing grade, for an idea, while ignoring the process that I used to formulate such an idea, I would have mocked in evaluations. But I also expect professors to be able to criticize students who are not able ot defend their ideas. Schools don't exist to justify your existence, they exist to provide you with the tools to do it yourself. (I know utopian, but if the situation is as bad as you say at that school you owe future potential students a warning that they will be wasting their money. Some of this happens everywhere, professors are human too, but the best schools diminish it and encourage, at least in the classroom, honest debate and criticism) But if you can't take it, don't run crying to other people for help (not you, the general 'you')

[Igel]

71. I'm sure she got lousy evaluations.

But she had tenure. And, at a research university, you can have bad evaluations if your research is admired by colleagues.

She should have been criticized, but there was nobody to do it, and no mechanism for enforcing the "academic freedom" clause of the faculty code of conduct.

I'm afraid that something like a state bill to impose academic freedom would have bad results, and hope they write it sensibly (or it gets amended to be sensible). It would also be far too easy for a troubled undergrad (or grad) to bury a prof in frivolous complaints.

[readmoreoften]

79. Was it a required course?

If not, then it's not an issue in my opinion. Writing an essay on your grandfather's service in WWII is a personal essay. Where was the thesis in that paper? An essay about how great America was in WWII has no thesis. While this prof seems overbearing in her slant, most undergraduate humanities education is simply deprogramming.

I know that many profs are loony, but so are students. In Texas, for example, you have students who want to write essays called "Why Jesus is my personal savior" on a regular basis.

[Redleg]

77. Most universities have an appeals process for students to use

when they feel they got fucked by a prof. I have been in higher ed as a student for 10 years (bachelors, masters, and doctorate) and as a professor for 4 years and have never seen a student get steam rolled because of their political views. Most likely it's because they offered a piss-poor analysis on a topic.

[forgethell]

17. Progressives are FOR

free speech. Even of those that disagree with them. Dialogue & discussion should be the tools to progress, not authoritarianism.

[Tigress DEM]

25. AMEN to Dialogue & Discussion as Tools to Progress

A toast! :toast: To FREE SPEECH!!

[forgethell]

31. To free speech

for all. :toast:

No matter who is offended.

[Tigress DEM]

36. To Free Speech!!

:toast:

[forgethell]

38. And Justice!

:toast:

Let justice prevail, though the heavens fall!!

:toast:

[Tigress DEM]

41. To Justice !!!

:toast:


Egad! Am I safe to drive on the DU after all this toasts?


Aw, well toast again!

:toast:

[Tigress DEM]

52. Another ROUND barkeep! To LIFE! LIBERTY! and the Pursuit...

of whatever strikes your fancy as long as it likes you back well enough and is in the same species.


:toast: :toast: :toast:

[VegasWolf]

54. No, but we'll tuck you safely in bed said the wolf. n/t

[Damien]

19. we have this in Colorado

It's not that big of a deal, and theorically it is good. I've had very conservative profs too -- I worry writing more "liberal" papers in their classes can be self-defeating.

Really though, I find most profs are not biased to where it impacts your grades (im a grad student right now, so I've been in academia awhile). The question is if state lawmakers need to be doing this kind of thing at all. I think most universities handle it internally fine.

This is often just the GOP bitching (I know it is in my state). Our gov. wants studetns to tell him about "liberal" profs and he will deal with it (blah blah blah).

It's really just a big dog and pony show. Though I understand how it can threaten free speech, it's not the issue to be worried about -- remember: it does protect us against exceeding right-wing econ/business profs that might fail you for a pro-marxist paper too...

[Tigress DEM]

26. It depends on exact wording - GOP is great for calling something...

One thing and it being in reality something entirely different....

The "Liberal Media Bias" where none really existed - for example - is how the Mainstream Media has become afraid to speak up about real issues any more. The media has been turned into whores of Bushdom.

Will the same tide of insanity sweep through the schools?

Private religious schools are already turning out fundamentalists that swallow Bushit hook line and sinker.

If the only professors that are allowed to move up in the prestigous schools are the ones who buy the party line, what will happen to Truth in education?

[donco6]

39. Actually, we don't

The bill was pulled when the colleges agreed to voluntarily moderate their behavior in the classrooms.

Probably still has the same stifling result.

[Tigress DEM]

42. Still one goosestep removed from theocratic dominion over education.

[VegasWolf]

20. So what should a prof do when someone wants to discuss a hollow earth

theory that was created by god and argue that there is
an access point in Mt. Olympia.

[Tigress DEM]

24. Theory is theory and quantum physics was insanity on paper at one point.

I'd say a wise professor would simply ask the student to follow the scientific method and look for solid evidence to support the theory.

However, what we teach as scientific fact must be provable. Evolution was seen to be a fact for a long time, except for the nagging missing link and the fact that there are still humans who haven't evolved beyond a "me-me" :bounce: mentallity. (Sorry - had to throw some humor in there, I'm having a rough day.)

[VegasWolf]

27. Unfortunately a lot of scientific theory is not yet provable e.g

many aspects of relativity theory and other issues such as
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle exist. Change in speciation
over a period of time is an observed fact although its exact
mechanisms are theoretical. I wouldn't want to waste valuable
lecture time talking about hollow earth theory or easter bunny
theory.

Hope you have a better day, humor is very appreciated.

[Tigress DEM]

34. I understand that science gets complicated when it ...

becomes brainstorming. But if a student will grab hold of the challenge and provide evidencial proof for their theory - even as extra credit - it can inspire them and quash the whole "left" is all about telling us what to believe crap.

<edit> As in (This is what the class is about - read the book, learn the stuff, tell me what I told you.) OK DONE. NOW>>> (Your brain is on fire with new ideas... tell me about those too, but use the scientific method. Extra cranial workout - Extra credit.) No special classes - no special privilage, but if someone wants to go above and beyond encourage their efforts. <end edit>

Just a thought.

Thanks. I'm better since being on the DU.

[VegasWolf]

45. LOL. Isn't it amazing the effect of fellowship here at DU. n/t

[northzax]

56. let them

if they can provide evidence, go right ahead. The professor has every right, indeed aresponsiblity to question the beliefs of the students, and to allow them to air their beliefs. as long as the criticism is of the theory, not the person, it's fine.

This is the problem, many conservatives (and just as many liberals) take criticism of ideas as personal criticism, or use personal criticism insteado f idealogical crit. This is what stifles debate. If your ideas and beliefs are the bedrock of wht and who you are, and you cannot stand to have those questioned, you cannot debate, because criticism of your ideas becomes criticism of you. it makes everything personal.

[AngryOldDem]

28. How these legislators see professors

80% of professors are Democrats, liberals, and communists looking to indoctrinate students into their cause.

And to answer Mumpers' question:

He questioned why lawmakers should approve funding for universities with "professors who would send some students out in the world to vote against the very public policy that their parents have elected us for."

It's called making students think, and think for themselves, which is what college is supposed to do. What Mumpers wants to do is to indoctrinate students into one very narrow line of thought, which is rich, considering that is precisely what he is accusing the professors of doing.

If this passes (and I live in Ohio and have just gone back to school here within the past year), I foresee a chlling effect on such classes as sociology, philosophy, political science...anywhere the free and open exchange of ideas and opinions are vital to learning.

It will be open season on professors, and higher learning in general in Ohio if this passes.

The good news is, it's not due to come to a vote anytime soon, last I heard.

[VegasWolf]

29. That is the problem though, highly intelligent people are liberal. n/t

[Tigress DEM]

35. Say, How are the Legal 4 doing? Those champions against vote fraud?

Last I heard...
www.freepress.org
by Steve Rosenfeld and Harvey Wasserman
February 3, 2005

Ohio Attorney-General's attack on election protection attorneys draws mountain of documentation on state's stolen election, including new study on exit polls


Stiff legal sanctions sought by Ohio's Republican Attorney General James Petro against four attorneys who have questioned the results of the 2004 presidential balloting here has produced an unintended consequence -- a massive counter-filing that has put on the official record a mountain of contentions by those who argue that election was stolen.

In filings that include well over 1,000 pages of critical documentation, attorneys **Robert Fitrakis #1, **Susan Truitt #2, **Peter Peckarsky #3 and **Cliff Arnebeck #4 have counter-attacked. Their defense motions include renewed assertions that widespread irregularities threw the true outcome of the November vote count into serious doubt. That assertion has now been lent important backing by a major academic study on the exit polls that showed John Kerry winning the November vote count.

Petro's suit is widely viewed as an attempt at revenge and intimidation against the grassroots movement that led to the first Congressional challenge to a state's Electoral College delegation since 1876. The attorney general's action was officially requested by Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, who administered the Ohio presidential balloting while serving as co-chair of the state's Bush-Cheney campaign. Petro and Blackwell have labeled as "frivolous" the election challenge filing. Their demand for sanctions will be reviewed by the Republican justice of the Ohio Supreme Court.

Though Petro's filing was aimed at backing down further challenges to the Ohio vote, it has allowed the election protection attorneys to enter into the official archives critical documentation detailing dozens of problems with Ohio's presidential balloting. Among the documents now made part of Ohio's legal archives is a congressional investigation report from Rep. John Conyers that seriously questions the November 2 outcome.

The two now-infamous lawsuits in question, Moss v. Bush and Moss v. Moyer, argued that irregularities involving enough votes to switch the state's electors from Bush to Kerry, and from Supreme Court justice Tom Moyer to challenger Ellen Connally, gave the public the right to file suit. Underlying much of the challenge have been wide ranging questions about whether Blackwell administered the election in a partisan manner.

Blackwell refused to testify in the case, and he has removed from public access critical documents relating to the vote count.

Under Ohio law, an original action to contest election allows only deposition testimony. It was impossible during the ten days of discovery to take the depositions of tens of thousands of disenfranchised voters, the majority African-American. But, as a result of Petro’s sanctions motion, the attorneys were able to enter into evidence (as Exhibits 1 & 2) explosive first-hand sworn testimony from November 13 and 15 public hearings in Columbus about voting irregularities. Excerpts from these first-person accounts were published on the House Judiciary Committee Democrats webpage and were used by some three-dozen U.S. Representatives and Senators to challenge Ohio’s Electoral College certification in Congress on January 6.

[bluestateguy]

32. There is always Bob Jones University for these people

It is wrong for a professor to punish a student with a reduced grade for nothing other than disagreement with the professor's opinion, but there is no evidence that this is a major problem at universities.

Students who do not want to have their world view challenged in college are free to enroll in places like Bob Jones University or Hillsdale College. There they can maintain their sheltered, white pickett fence wiew of the world and not dare have it challenged.

[Tigress DEM]

33. Any sensible person prefers ideals that speak to true equality..

So why is bozo Mumper surprised that education would help people see that oppression in general doesn't help America?

"I see students coming out having gone in without any ideological leanings one way or another, coming out with an indoctrination of a lot of left-wing issues," said bill sponsor Sen. Larry Mumper, a former high school teacher whose Republican party controls the Legislature."

[VegasWolf]

43. Exactly! but what about the neo conservative movement that thinks

that being poor is a sign of disfavor of god, whereas being born wealthy is a sign of god's good grace. This reconcillation allows
them to see and embrace a hierarchial society that would provide
tax breaks for the wealthy at the expense of the poor.

[Tigress DEM]

51. Oh boy... don't get me started on this one! ROFL

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Major soapbox tirade approaching.....


King Bush is sending us back to midEVIL rule.

Church - tells you what to believe, what is ok to do or not do.

Nobels (Rich People) - administer the rule of law.

Peasants (not the rich people) - get to do all the work.

[droidamus]

44. Unable or unwilling to debate is the problem

My experience with young right-wingers is that they are not interested in debating or supporting their beliefs they just expect them to be accepted as indisputible facts. An example from a non-religious perspective (this is from the 1980's), a right wing student in my Macro Economics class made the statement that Ronald Reagan was the best thing that ever happened to the Unitied States economy. When pressed to back up his statement and presented with counter indicating facts he fell back to the typical 'you just hate Reagan' and 'your just picking on me because you don't like my politics'. He had no backup for his statement other than sound bites and talking points he had heard. That is the crux of their problem they don't want to logically debate they just want their ideas to be absolutely accepted.

[VegasWolf]

46. Yes, any answer that begins with "because god did it" should be

immeaditely disqualified. Why do TV's work? Why do washing
machines work? What does a computer work? Because god did
it is not an acceptable answer.

[bluestateguy]

57. Oh you ain't seen nothing yet

I had a student last semester that offered up some real gems in class and on exams. For example:

"Well, um until Ronald Reagan came along all of the rest of the world was communist" (I'll pass that along to the folks in China, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam)

"Bill Clinton sold out the Panama Canal to the Red Chinese" (Carter turned over the Canal to Panama, and it was that Commie Lib Margaret Thatcher who turned over Hong Kong to Red China).

On Social Security privatization, which he favors: "Well, I mean, the stock market is just going to go nuts for the next four or five years" (If this 19 year old dolt is right, I'll be sure to pass along his resume to Goldman Sachs).

[depakid]

65. This is the EXACT sort of irrational reaction I get

People on the far right are either:

1. Incapable of honest and logical debate, because they lack the requisite communication skills;

2. Ignorant of the facts- so they have no evidence with which to butress their arguments;

3. Unwilling to entertain the notion that their beliefs may be based on false assumptions or that they are laboring under misconceptions.

Often, it's all 3.

Students like these should not be surprised that they receive poor grades or ridiculed by their classmates.

[LinuxInsurgent]

47. This is NOT an academic bill of rights

This is better named the "push Christian-Right wing views" Bill...

I have YET to meet a professor, conservative or leftist, (and I'm doing a doctorate) that has PUSHED his views on the classes as the final word...the closest that I got was a professor who was a right-winger, who would point to me as the "resident Marxist" in the class (I am not a communist...but I do think Marx's ideas are useful for understanding society, politics, and economics). Of course, that got a little tiring after a while...but he never forced his views on the class. I had mine, he had his. End of story.

This whole "i'm a right-winger victim" thing is overblown propaganda...intended to shape the stage for an ideological attack on left-wing ideas in academia.

[VegasWolf]

48. I certainly never met one either but i was in the sciences and

mathematics and it was 30 years ago.

[underthedome]

49. I've heard the Senator tell an off color joke before

Makes me question what values Larry wants taught.

[HockeyMom]

61. No LIBERAL PARENTS?

Did these IDIOTS ever consider THAT? Or do we now have the Nazi BROWN SHIRTS mentality where the schools must INDOCTRINATE the kids to follow the GOVERNMENT regime?

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

63. Universities "teaching values"?

Not on my watch we don't.

[depakid]

64. This is simply another round of right wing intimidation

It's part of the pattern that has been used against the media for close to 3 decades now (with obvious success) - It's being used against scientists in administrative agencies, when their objective findings don't match the agenda driven policy choices of the Republican party- see, e.g.

U.S. Scientists Say They Are Told to Alter Findings

And now it's being used effectively against academia- even without stupid laws.

Universities are now being forced (through right wing budget cuts) to hire an increasing number of "adjunct" or contract professors. It's been my experience in grad school that these profs- more so than even the untenured assistant profs, remain silent about controversial issues, often to the detriment of the class discussion.

Were it not for certain student provacatuers, a lot of issues- a lot of LIES ABOUT POLICY, would be glossed over or avoided entirely.

That's not only detrimental to students, but harmful to the country at large- and in the case of health care and economics (my current field of study)- even to the very Republicans who advocate stifling academic freedom.

[American Tragedy]

66. Well, if you're afraid to speak up, that's your problem!

I've verbally sparred with very conservative professors and teachers throughout my life. Nobody can stop me from doing so. It's part of being a critically thinking human being.

[rasputin1952]

67. Apparently Sen Mumper is terrified that a youngster might actually...

learn to THINK while in college....OH THE HORROR!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!


I would think the good people of OH would send this fool packing in the near future, apparently his education was not all it was cracked up to be either....:evilgrin:

[rocktivity]

73. Thought policing

The proposal in Ohio to create an academic ``bill of rights'' would prohibit public and private college professors from presenting opinions as fact or penalizing students for expressing their views. Professors would not be allowed to introduce controversial material unrelated to the course.
It's easy to separate fact or opinion--a fact is either true or false. I think this student's real problem is that too many liberal opinions have too much truth in them.

``We see nothing but mischief if we invite people from outside of the university to somehow start monitoring what goes on inside the classroom,'' said David Patton, an AAUP member and professor emeritus of Ohio State University.
What John Kerry would have said.

Sen. Teresa Fedor, a Democrat from Toledo, agrees: ``Can we say 21st century witch hunt and book burning?''
What Howard Dean would have said. YEAAAAAAGGGGGHHH!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Kimber Scott]

75. The truth leans left. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

78. 2 issues with this travesty

The first is this is nothing more than the Xtian right wing trying to get their way...AGAIN! ...Charis Bridgman tends to keep quiet in class if she thinks her professor might disagree with her Christian-influenced ideas. "They might chastise me, or not even listen to my opinion or give me a chance to explain." I have thing one thing to say to this...BOO FUCKING HOO!!! If she had said she had tried to explain her views and got shot down, then there is a slight issue. But this whiny ass didn't EVEN try!!! So, now, they don't even have to try and get shot down, the idea they MIGHT get shot down is enough for them to cry and whine!

Issue 2: I see students coming out having gone in without any ideological leanings one way or another, coming out with an indoctrination of a lot of left-wing issues. What fucking students has he MET?! The last university I worked for has been doing ongoing first-year student surveys and the vast majority are conservatives!!! As they exit, the numbers change slightly from less "hard core" conservatives, to more 'moderate.' However, conservatives, still outweigh the number of "liberals" our university was spitting out!!! When compared to other universities, we were about in line (we had more "hardcores" coming in, than most, but we are in Okla-HELL-ma). Therefore, it seems, if anything, universities are "favoring" right-wing politics! This guy needs a fucking reality check (or at least read some published material about what he is screaming about).

[Democat]

83. The religious right wants complete control of youth brainwashing

TV isn't enough for them, they want to use the colleges for right wing brainwashing as well.

To the right wing, education is dangerous. Stupid people are easy to control.

[Behind the Aegis]

86. You are absolutely correct!

We have to take a stand. These people are dangerous, but so many people want to placate them, and that is WRONG! They need to be throw out of the equation.

[Bake]

84. I'm not afraid of the marketplace of ideas!

The only thing I fear is that we no longer have such a "place."

So she's "afraid" to speak up? Then sit there and shut the fuck up. We - on BOTH sides of the aisle - need people who can cogently put forward their ideas and discuss and defend them. I think OUR ideas will win out in such a debate.

Bake

[SmokingJacket]

85. If you don't like college, don't go.

You wouldn't catch me dead at Oral Roberts.