General Lazarevic surrenders, Gotovina still on the run

[struggle4progress]

One of the ICTY's most wanted suspects, Vladimir Lazarevic, who gave himself up to the Court on 28 January, is due to make his first appearance before the judges on 7 February. The former commander of the Pristina corps of the Yugoslav Army is wanted for war crimes committed during the Kosovo war (1998-1999). His decision to hand himself in, which was taken in conjunction with the Serb Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica, is the first sign from Belgrade of cooperation with the international tribunal. The European Union recently gave Serbia until March to significantly improve cooperation with the ICTY, making it an essential condition for talks on the integration of Serbia into the European Union. Brussels has been less successful in getting Croatia to hand over another ICTY suspect, General Ante Gotovina. The Tribunal has been trying to arrest the general since 2001 for war crimes committed against Croatian Serbs during the Serbo-Croat war (1991-1995). On 31 January, it also warned Zagreb that EU negotiations due to open on 17 March would be postponed if cooperation had not improved by then. <snip>

http://www.justicetribune.com/article_uk.php?id=2885

[HuckleB]

1. Well, that's good.

But when will the world figure out that Kosovo/a isn't going to be peaceful as long as it remains a part of Serbia?

[Kagemusha]

2. It's part of Serbia? Could've fooled me.

And how it's gonna change once it ceases to be part of Serbia is also beyond me, frankly. But I guess it sounds good on a message board.

[HuckleB]

3. It's not going to be easy.

It's ridiculously poor, and the Serbs destroyed what infrastructure existed. But Kosovars are not likely to accept Serbian rule as the UN still seems to think they must. It's a certain recipe for ongoing civil war.

[Kagemusha]

4. I'd like to see where the Kosovars are gonna accept

Serbian rule of *Serbia*.

[HuckleB]

5. Whatever you say.

Are you Serbian?

[solinvictus]

6. What about the Kosovar criminals??

I get so damned sick and tired of hearing about Serb crimes while the Islamist extremists in Kosovo received NATO help in their ethnic cleansing of Serbs.

[HuckleB]

7. Can you give us legit sources about how NATO helped them do this?

[Igel]

8. NATO didn't help the ethnic cleansing of Serbs and the

destruction of monasteries and their libraries, and churches. Some many, many hundreds of years old.

No, they merely prevented anybody from stopping it. And haven't done much to find the people that did it.

[HuckleB]

9. Who would have stopped it in the period in which it happened?

And how did NATO prevent them from stopping it?

[Igel]

10. The Serbian military.

When you drive thousands of Serbs from their homes in Kosovo and NATO stands around twiddling their thumbs, while threatening Serbia to not send in one soldier, well ... that's not exactly taking strong action. (OK, what I said isn't quite true, they did try to protect some villages, but everybody knew the rules of engagement were the typical "fire only if *you're* fired on". Shooting at NATO folk, bad; shooting at Serbs ....)

[solinvictus]

11. Exactly...

Use NATO planes as an offensive support by leveling command and control centers in Beograde whilst allowing Kosovars to round up the Serbs for deportation and death. It's a shame Russia wasn't strong enough to put a stop to this back in 1999.

[HuckleB]

13. I suppose...

you thought it was OK for Serbian troops to round up 90 percent of the Kosovo population for "deportation and death."

That is why NATO got involved. Or have you conveniently forgotten?

Sheesh.

[The Magistrate]

14. Surely, Sir, You Are Engaged In Comedy?

[HuckleB]

12. LOL!

You kindly forget that the Serbian military was performing ethnic cleansing upon 90 percent of the population of Kosovo. Hmm. I wonder why that is? NATO got involved because of the atrocities of the Serbian military. Now, again, I ask. Who could have stopped the retaliatory attacks agains Serbs and Roma in the area, and how did NATO stop them from doing it?

A real answer would be welcome. Thank you.

[Igel]

15. Serb kills Kosovar. Serbs commit ethnic cleansing. Evil.

Kosovar kills Serb. Kosovars commit ethnic cleansing. Evil ... ?

Well, you see, they're oppressed, and, well, let's not accuse the victims of anything ... they were ethnically cleansed first. And if we let the bad Serbs protect Serb villagers and monks and actually stop the victims from pursuing justice, well, not really justice, but we can understand where they're coming from ... then we wouldn't be sending a strong enough message that we really, really hate ethnic cleansing on principle.

See, I understand.

No, I don't. Why is it hard for people to believe that somebody can be against ethnic cleansing, regardless of who's doing it? Victimhood does not justify murder and arson, dammit; they can't even claim "fighting for freedom from oppression", because the Serb powers-that-be left town. NATO decided to protect the people in Kosovo ... but didn't say the Serbs weren't people.

[The Magistrate]

16. If You Seriously Wish To Argue It, Sir

There are two points that need to be recalled.

The first is the whole history of the matter, as this ground has been contested between the two groups since even before the Ottoman conquest of the region. In its modern, post-Ottoman history, the driving of Albanians out of Kossovo was consistant Serbian policy throughout the period of the Yugoslav monarchy, while under Axis occupation there was great dispossession of Serbs. Under Tito matters were stabilized, and with his death, the older pattern practiced under the former monarchy was resumed, growing in force and viciousness under pretext of suppressing Albanian rebellion. This latter brought the NATO intervention eventually. No one knowledgeable about the matter imagines anyone has clean hands here, and by the same token, it is clear the two peoples are not going to co-exist peacefully, and that anything which produces a semblance of peace and finality must disfavor one side or another.

The second is the question of scale, both of the contending populations and of the violence employed in securing their ends by the more radical elements. The Albanian population is, and for a very long time has been, predominant. The degree of violence employed by Serbian state organs vastly over-matched that employed, either in the nineties or today, by irridentist Kossovars. There is a natural tendency to range against the most recent and more gross offender, in a situation where neither side has any other credentials to command support. It is also generally wise, if one aims at a stable resolution, to favor the majority position in such a dispute, as it will be capable of more trouble if disfavored than the other. That there is nothing particularly smacking of justice or fairness in this is freely admitted, but my guide in such matters is expediency. Justice is a highly over-rated commodity....

[Vladimir]

19. I am afraid I couldn't resist...

in hindsight, Serbs should have probably let Kosovo go in the early ninties on their own initiative, since this would have put the human rights boot on the other foot - but politically this was as unfeasible then as it is impossible for the government now, even when it has been endplayed. In any case, when compared to the Bosnian Serbs' crimes, or the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Croatia (on which of course the West was always quiet, perhaps because the Croatian army was trained by retired US generals), or Turkey's record, or one might even say Latvia's treatment of its ethnic minorities, the Serbs' mid-90s record in Kosovo does not particularly stand out. The worst of what attrocities were commited did not, in any case, come until much later, arguably until the bombs were already falling.

In any case, all that has changed since '99 is who is the minority where - the low level repression and segregation continues, with the boot on the other foot. The Serbs left in Kosovo will eventually move out or die out (the birth rate across Serbia as a whole is atrocious), and this particular passage will end, for better or worse. Only the hypocrisy of the 'liberation' of '99 will remain (Can you imagine how the story would have gone in 2002? Yeah, so can I...). The Kosovars have found out the hard way why the 'liberation' was fought in any case - they are unlikely to be given meaningful independance any time soon. The status quo is too convinient.

On edit: In any case, the Kosovar Serbs are hardly the only ones who have suffered since '99, so have the Roma, ethnic Turks, the Kosovars themselves. But then the Roma always suffer, especially in the Balkans.

[The Magistrate]

20. Excellent Points, Sir

We are not really in any major disagreement, though there are some minor caveats worth mention.

First, it does not seem to me there is much point to distinction between Bosnian Serb crimes and crimes of the Serb government. The former group was dependent on the latter for fighting power, and acted under its aegis.

Second, what was done in Kossovo was done at the start of the final phase of the campaign, before it had really got into gear, but at a time when it was clearly impending. There does not seem to me any reason to suppose the thing would not have come pretty quickly to resemble events in Bosnia, if no action had been taken. Once in the alley behind my home two men were beating another, and my appearance shouting on the porch caused them to flee. The fellow proved not too badly harmed, but without my intervention might have been kicked to death, and it would certainly have been wrong of me not involve myself because he had not yet been hurt enough, and foolish for anyone to call me an interfering busybody for acting before the full dimension of the thing was clear.

Third, the breaking of Milosevic over Kossovo had in it something of the nature of a retroactive punishment for Bosnia. In truely cut-throat leagues, you only get two mistakes, and usually the second one is reminding someone of your first. Having skated over the Bosnian business, the fellow tried for another bite at the apple, and that simply was too much.

On the other hand, you are quite right about the cleansing of the Kriajna and some other areas. These were certainly crimes, and it is to be regreted Trudjman died before he could have been put in the dock. there certainly have been Croats tried for crimes against Serbs, and Bosnians tried for crimes against Serbs as well. You are also, most sadly, right about the persecution of the Roma. It is a damned bad business.

[Vladimir]

21. The final phase of the campaign, I reckon,

would have had a hard time getting off the ground had the KLA not felt emboldened by the outcome of the Bosnian affair. The KLA intensified its struggle, which gave both an excuse and a motive for Milosevic to 'get tough'. The Serbian ruling class had always used Kosovo as an electoral ploy, but the cheap labour coming out of it meant that aside from Mr. Rankovic in the late 40s and early 50s and Seselj and his ilk, few really wanted to get rid of the Albanians. It is not a coincidence that the trouble stirs in the poorest areas...

None of this is of course to excuse what was done in '99, nor indeed Belgrade's complicity in Bosnia... though I think Karadzic was not entirely a puppet. But this is moot, since the country will remain a protectorate for the considerable future and in fact it may be better for its own future that Karadzic goes down into history as Slobo's marionette.

Finally, you are to a certain extent right about Milosevic and the second bite, although I believe he was losing the next election anyway. The margins of rigging simply got too large, and confirmed what was widely realised in Serbia, that Milosevic did not in fact run a dictatorship. When it came to the crunch, he was presiding over a corruption that would not spill any more blood for him. The Serbs didn't vote him out because of the war, although it clinched the issue for many, they voted him out because he was a loser and a thief. Why else would they vote so strongly for Seselj since '99?

Speaking idealistically, I could never bring myself to regard the conflict as just because justice needs to be even-handed if it is to be seen as legitimate. All citizens of democracies, whether with "" or not, are responsible for their leaders after re-election day, and in extreme cases long before then. The Serbs (I supposed we, although I am a bit of a mongrel) failed that test many times, but then so did many others. Pragmatically speaking, plus ca change.

[The Magistrate]

22. Indeed, My Friend

Your analysis is most sound, and our differences more matters of emphasis, perhaps, than anything else. Be assured, if there is the slightest doubt, that my views in this matter are free of any animus against the people of Serbia, though my distaste for Milosevic is great. It is often the case in this unhappy world that, though a problem is pressing, there really is no good solution to it, and this has always seemed to me one such instance.

"The Balkans produce more history than can be consumed locally, and are compelled to export the excess."

[HuckleB]

17. You're playing games, spinning out of control & arguing against a phantom

...poster. You tried to argue that the Serb military could have stopped the reprisals upon Serbs by the Kosovars who were being ethnically cleansed by that same military. Yet you failed to mention any knowledge about that about 900,000 Kosovars being displaced (and thousands murdered) by the Serbian army, etc... etc...

No one here is justifying the reprisals against the Serbs. And NATO and the UN did protect everyone as much as is humanly possible once they could actually get troops on the ground. Somehow, however, you wanted the impossible to happen -- something I suspect you know. Anyone who spent any time in Kosovo knows that UN and even Kosovar troops protected Serbs and their ancient churches and other buildings as soon as it was possible to do so.

Please discuss with a genuine honesty in the future.

[HuckleB]

18. Update: Serb General Pleads Not Guilty

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=7556981

[Rockerdem]

23. What I want to know is when Rumsfeld is going to surrender

Then we will begin to have justice, closure, what have you.