Hercules 'hit by terrorists'

[emad]

By Andrew Gilligan In Baghdad, Evening Standard
31 January 2005

A terrorist group claimed responsibility today for shooting down a British transport plane in Iraq, killing up to 10 members of the armed forces.

The claim by Ansar al-Islam came as British military investigators confirmed they believed the Hercules C130 was brought down by a ground-launched missile.

A statement posted on the internet by the Iraqi group said its fighters tracked the aircraft as it came over them at low altitude and "fired an anti-tank missile at it".

.....

A senior RAF source said there was "no doubt" that the crash about 25 miles north of Baghdad was caused by a "catastrophic mid-air event".

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/16268660?source=Evening%20Standard&ct=5

[HereSince1628]

1. How many Stingers from Iraq's old inventory went "missing?"

Last I heard there was anxiety about 1000's of them.

[Stella_Artois]

3. Stingers ?

They didn't have any, the CIA gave 2,000 to their man Osama and his friends though.

[LiberallyInclined]

5. those stingers the CIA gave the mudjadheen(sp?) are past their shelf life.

supposedly, after 20 years, the very specialized batteries would be unusable.

BUT- there are lots and lots of other shoulder fired ground-to-air weapons out there and available for relatively low cost.

[htuttle]

15. You're thinking of Strela-2's

Also referred to as SA-7's.

Other than being of a Russian design, it's very similar in capabilities to a Stinger.

[Stella_Artois]

17. More akin to the ancient Redeye

The SA-7 had as much chance of chasing the Sun or a hot rock than then intended target.

The insurgents seem to be using SA-14's however which are indeed as capable as the Stinger.

If anyone is in any doubt as to the availability of this weapon, email DHL and ask them what happened to this A-300





http://www.cargolaw.com/2004nightmare_on.target.html

Yet, this poses more questions than it answers. A single SA-14 would not be expected to bring down a C-130, they are fairly robust.

[daleo]

2. Makes you wonder about that helicopter.

A bit much for a coincidence.

[Scurrilous]

4. Purported Tape of Shot Down Plane Shown

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=1&u=/ap/20050131/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_plane_crash

<snip>

"Insurgents claimed to have shot down a British military plane north of Baghdad over the weekend, and Al-Jazeera television aired a videotape from guerrillas Monday showing flaming wreckage of a plane. Britain said all 10 personnel on the flight were missing and presumed dead.

The authenticity of the video could not be confirmed. It showed a finger pressing a button on a white box with wires, and then images two missiles or rockets flying up into the air. The video did not show any impact with a plane. Instead, it cut to footage of people in street clothes walking through a plane's wreckage burning on the ground.

It was not immediately possible to determine if the wreckage was that of the British C-130 Hercules that crashed Sunday about 25 miles north of Baghdad.

In London, officials at the Foreign Office said they were aware of the reported video, but offered no further comment."

[egoprofit]

21. THE VIDEO IS RIGHT HERE (fyi)

Al-Jazera footage of the released video:

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/january/ogrish-dot-com-british_plane_shot_down.wmv

[leftchick]

6. Jazeera Tape Appears to Show UK Plane Hit in Iraq

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=2&u=/nm/20050131/ts_nm/iraq_plane_dc

DUBAI (Reuters) - Arabic television channel Al Jazeera aired a videotape on Monday purporting to show an Iraqi insurgent group firing a missile that downed a British transport plane in Iraq (news - web sites).


The video, issued by the 1920 Revolution Brigades, also showed an explosion at a distance and burning debris of a what appeared to be a plane on the ground, including an engine, filmed at close range in a large field.


British Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon said 10 servicemen were missing, believed killed, in Sunday's crash. Defense experts said it could have been shot down.


Al Jazeera said it had received a copy of the tape from the group, which has claimed responsibility for some attacks and kidnappings in the past.

[RandomKoolzip]

7. But....but....the elections!

Damn liberal media!

[leftchick]

8. Now how the hell would they know how many were on the plane?

???


<snip>
An al-Jazeera announcer said the rebels said on a statement accompanying the video that more than 40 people were killed when the plane went down, including officers.

[Stella_Artois]

9. Thats strange

That they had time to assemble the various body parts and go through their ID.

They must have been fast workers, or are making it up.

[leftchick]

12. or...

perhaps they had an informant who watched them board?

[KansDem]

35. Maybe their IDs were made of the same material the WTC passports

of the hijackers were made of that enabled them to resist a huge fireball undamaged.

The searchers found several clues, he said, but would not elaborate. Last week, a passport belonging to one of the hijackers was found in the vicinity of Vesey Street, near the World Trade Center. "It was a significant piece of evidence for us," Mawn said.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/17/inv.investigation.terrorism/

I also like this statement from the same article:

Mueller said there were "no warning signs" before the terrorist attacks.

Really? How many foreign intelligence services were screaming about something big was going to happen prior to 9/11? How about the PDBs? The increase in "chatter/" --what a pack of liars!

[TahitiNut]

13. It wouldn't take much for infiltrators on military bases to count heads.

I doubt very much that there are many airfields or bases that don't have large numbers of Iraqis working on them doing "coolie labor."

It was the same in Vietnam. We had all kinds of Vietnamese working on post, from office workers to barracks maids to men who burned the shit in the split 50-gallon drums under the latrine seats to men and women who worked mucking out the roadside trenches to the barbers who cut our hair.

It'd take almost nothing to count the number of troops boarding a C-130. The C-130 Hercules is the transport workhorse of the military, ferrying men and supplies all over any war zone. When troops are loaded onto a C-130 Hercules, they usually walk in nice formation up to the plane and up the ramp. It's easy to count them - just count the boots and divide by two.


I'd be willing to bet that the Resistance has a better handle on troop movements in Iraq than the Pentagon does. It's been the "second rule of warfare" for 3,000 years. First Rule: Know where your own forces are. Second Rule: Know where the enemy forces are. These have been the primary immutable rules of armed conflict for all of history.

[leftchick]

18. Thank you for the insight TahitiNut...

I learn so much from you Vietnam Veterans. I agree that the Resistance is adapting well. How long before we can expect a Tet 2005?
I would imagine before summer.

peace,

lc

[TahitiNut]

37. Tet was a remnant of the "gentleman's war" mentality.

Up until 1968, Tet (the "New Year" when everyone celebrates their birthday) was respected as a sacrosanct time. It was the habit (not by agreement) that hostilities would decrease while people focused on their culture and family. Clearly, any reliance on this was a strategic error. Thus, I'd not expect a repeat of that specific error. If anything, the U.S. is now less respectful of such customs than any other. After all, Geneva is "quaint," right?

That's not to say that U.S. military forces aren't engaging in habitual (seasonal?) behaviors. Such habits are hard to break. Virtually any successful surprise assault would identify and exploit such habits ... catching 'em with their pants down, so to speak.

[daleo]

20. Just count the boots and divide by two

The evil Zarquawi could trick you if you used that principle, depending on how many legs he was using that day.

[JanMichael]

14. Guestimates. Happens all the time. Like with the missing 9 Billion.

It's like an estimate but it's a guess.

[Roland99]

10. Terror Has Been Defeated Says Iraq PM

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050131/140/fbfgf.html



Uhhh....hmm....which is it?

[jayfish]

11. Hey Where's seriousstan?

The crow is tasting mighty fine. Don't worry though, you'll be at 1000 posts soon and then you'll be a real, genuine Du'er


ON EDIT: Since when are fighters who attack a military target designated as terrorists?

Jay

[Lone_Star_Dem]

16. Video tape is one hell of a weapon against propaganda.

In the future we will be waiting much longer for an "official reason" for crashes.

[RedCloud]

19. By Zeus, this shall not go unavenged!

Mighty Hercules hit? Oh let Mount Olympus avenge thee!

[truthpusher]

22. Arab TV shows 'shooting down' of British plane

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/a2603364-73b7-11d9-b705-00000e2511c8.html

Arab TV shows 'shooting down' of British plane
By Christopher Adams in London
Published: January 31 2005 18:50 | Last updated: January 31 2005 18:50

A videotape purportedly showing the shooting down of an RAF Hercules aircraft in Iraq was broadcast on Monday night by al-Jazeera television channel, possible evidence that insurgents were responsible for the attack, which is believed to have killed 10 UK servicemen.

The video showed two rockets being fired, an explosion in the distance, and then footage of burning debris including what appeared to be an aircraft engine scattered over a wide area.

According to the Reuters news agency, al-Jazeera said that it had received a copy of the tape from the 1920 Revolution Brigades - a group that has claimed responsibility for some attacks and kidnappings in the past - although a separate group has claimed it downed the aircraft.

A British government spokesman declined to speculate on the cause of the crash and said the official investigation would take some weeks. Defence analysts said it could have been shot down.

more:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/a2603364-73b7-11d9-b705-00000e2511c8.html


Video @ MSNBC:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6886612

[xultar]

23. When will we find out they shot down our helicopters and the US lied

:grr:

[Sal316]

32. There was an article in the Asia Times this weekend...

...that said the chopper with 31 aboard was shot down by an old SA-7 rocket.

[truthisfreedom]

36. sigh. the US has lied and will continue to lie, under any administration,

about things like this. the excuse at the highest levels will always be "don't support the terrorists by letting them take credit for kills." end of story.

it's sad, but inescapable.

[seriousstan]

24. Interesting editing in this video.......

"The video – on Arab satellite TV station al-Jazeera – showed pictures of a finger pressing a button, then pictures of a missile flying up into the air.

The video did not show the missile hitting a plane. Instead, it cut to footage of a plane’s wreckage burning on the ground."

[Emboldened Chimp]

26. If they got footage of firing the missile...

...then they would have gotten footage of the helicopter being hit. This is a sham.

[Up2Late]

31. The "Super Stallion" Helicopter is...

a BIG, Slow, Helicopter. Hard to hit with a RPG, easy to hit with a "Stinger" missile or just about any Soviet made SAM:eyes:

[egoprofit]

27. wouldn't it be very hard to hit a moving plane??

unless the missles are somehow guided? seems to me that it would be VERY hard to do this!!!

if the plane is so big maybe that's how they were able to do it...

[shadowknows69]

33. they don't call it a hercules for nothing

they're huge aircraft and at lower altitudes would make a fairly easy target for any missle.

[Damien]

25. can we see al-Jazeera?

We always read about it in MSM comments, but I for one have never seen the station? Can we even get it in America? It would be interesting to see with our own eyes...

[egoprofit]

28. i have seen their web site at the beginning of the war!

I used to watch the footage. I remember the grisly footage of dead americans... but then the US government (GOD) shut down their site!! they must now still be operating but chances are there are now some kind of USA (GOD) influence in their programming... (??)

[sabra]

29. Video @ MSNBC:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6886612/

[truthpusher]

30. Thanks n/t

[twaddler01]

34. Will we ever know

how many were actually in the plane?

I hear 10,15,30 and all kinds of diff numbers. Is it that hard to count?