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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:18 PM
Original message
AP: Sen. Biden, Iran Minister Clash Over Nukes ('You have to grow up!')
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 08:55 PM by truthpusher
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/93-01282005-4405...

Sen. Biden, Iran Minister Clash Over Nukes

By GEORGE JAHN
The Associated Press

DAVOS, Switzerland - Sen. Joseph Biden and Iran's foreign minister clashed Friday over Tehran's nuclear ambitions, with Biden hinting at the possibility of armed conflict unless fears of an Iranian weapons program were put to rest.

The rare and frank public exchange between a senior American politician and a ranking member of the Iranian government came at a dinner during the World Economic Forum held in this Alpine resort town.

(snip)

"You have to grow up and my administration has to grow up, with all due respect, and find out if there is any common ground," he said." We are on the course of unintended consequences."

(snip)

"I hope we're all smarter about this, smarter than we've been," he said. Alluding to the refusal by Bush to rule out an armed response to Iran's nuclear plans, he said: "I hope our leadership is brighter because if it's not, it's a very dull picture for the region, and for humanity."

more:

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/93-01282005-4405...
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TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ugh, I don't know who to be mad at
Maybe they need a frank talkin' to. Maybe we shouldn't fire them up like that. I don't know. I DO know there isn't any common ground. They want to have nukes. We want them to have bronze age weapons.
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rqstnnlitnmnt Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. last i checked..
it was our president planting flags of liberty and whatnot
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow!
That's a pretty damn big slam on *. Of course I don't even want a dem senator HINTING at armed conflict, but still...good words.
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IrishBloodEngHeart Donating Member (815 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. If Biden holds to form
tomorrow he will do exactly the opposite of what he said today, and praise Bush for his genius in foreign policy.
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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Biden's getting a lot of attention on this stuff...
...maybe he's smarter than we think :shrug:
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. He's so smart he voted against IWR ... not.
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 09:29 PM by bahrbearian
Chimpy keeps suckering these guys.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. Doesn't sound like he was hinting in any threatening way, but
rather condemning the bushies for having hinted. He'd do better to leave out the inflammatory rhetoric regarding other countries though.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. Condi should be saying these things,...
but it would hurt the feelings of her husband, Bush*. Another reason for more objectivity and distancing between the Secretary of State and the President, don't 'ya think?
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
64. well in a leadership vacuum like we've got at present,

...with John Kerry acting like a shadow president, Biden might as well be our shadow Secretary of State. :)
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kitty1 Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
51. have we not all learned by now
that it wouldn't make any difference what Iran says or really intends to do with their nuclear capability. Like Iraq, Bush and Co are Hell bent to democratize and control the Middle East. Again, they're looking for a justification to go in there and blast away their nuclear sites and destroy their credibility . It's Iraq all over again. But unlike Iraq, Iran will strike back fiercely with better arsenal, and Iraq in comparison will look like a school yard fist fight.
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deacon2 Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Dead on
The PNAC Manifesto is clear on its goal of American hegemony throughout the entire Middle East. Iraq was a paper lion. Ironically, Iran does truly pose an enormous threat to its neighbors and, depending on nuclear weapons delivery capability, to the larger world community - at least under current leadership. In terms of full-on nuclear force, the sleeping lion is Pakistan. What the hell happens when the Islamic fundies finally off Musharraf and acquire this capability wholesale? His limo was back wheels up and on fire not too long ago and that was with the "protection" of super jammers. You know the jihadi RF/IED experts have been hard at work since then.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. I'm sure US experts at work, pushing that event off to the horizon
It seems that allied leaders usually survive as long as they remain useful to us. Musharraf is still VERY useful. I wouldn't hope for his premature demise.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Oh, God, Biden took a hint from Dayton...telling the TRUTH.
They have to grow up (yeah, like how about democracy in Iran you religious zealots) and we have to grow up (too many examples to list).

Way to go Biden. Shout it Out!
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oppositionmember Donating Member (147 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. Good for Joe Biden.
Somebody's gotta start talking reality here.
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
9. What the fuck is going on with Biden lately. As if we could handle
a war with Iran.
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. He's not threatening Iran with war
he's WARNING then that the neo-cons are dumb enough to start one.
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
47. Of course not, he's a democrat. It is this "grow up" Iran that is silly.
Seems to me Iran needs nukes to protect themselves from
the imperialist advances of the neo conservative agenda
of the US. That sounds like a pretty grown up response
to me. After all, persia has lots of OIL.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. Their stubbornness
as our stubbornness is what he's talking about. I agree with him in principle.
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
62. The male Andropause perhaps?
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. Iran
will end up having nukes. That is reality. Only then US will stop pushing them around.

Iran is no crazy. US is. PERIOD.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Or Maybe Not
I think the main reason Washington is looking at Iraq the way they are is, if we don't go in *soon,* Iran *will* get a nuke, in time.

Of course they're going to get a nuke, or work on it, because having nukes is the only deterrent to keep US troops out. (Just look at North Korea.)

I think the whole thing is doomed.
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Well go in then
If a country has no right to protect itself by having nuke cause that is the only way they can stop the US from bombing the shit out of them
then this world is shity.

Sorry I dont have a problems with Iran having nuke if that is what it take to save themself from US greedy fingers.

Iran is no danger to me. Or the rest of the world.
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pacifictiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #20
39. I agree
NRA/republican wisdom says, if the bully across town comes in with a gun to shoot your neighbor, then you'd better get a gun too so you can shoot him first if and when he comes back for you.
With the current madness of escalation and global domination plans from these fools that are currently in control, I'm not surprised that Iran wants nuclear capabilities.
US has, Russia has, Pakistan & India have, Israel has ......
What does one more matter in this dangerous little game of chicken the world is playing at. Iran's mullahs are no more dangerous in terms of armageddon than our resident madman.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
41. More or Less
I wouldn't see Iran as a threat, personally, either, if the US were to leave things alone. But they've shown in the past (the Hostage Crisis) they're willing to poke us in the eye.

And we don't want to leave things alone.

On this map, look at what Iran's surrounding nations:



Afghanistan - UN is there and is our boy Hamid.

Iraq - 'nuff said.

Pakistan - will Musharrif control the border?

SA - hard to tell

Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Armenia - all friendly, IIRC.

Iran's a frigging sandwich, IMO.

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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #41
77. Well taking on Iran
Is no small matter. It has to be a full land based war. Also all those countries surrounding it is Muslim countries. No supply line is safe.

Iran has Sunburn Missile, they are deadly, Bush is crazy if he attack Iran, US will need like 500,000 troops in Iran just to control the major population center. Where are you going to get all the troops.
Already 225,000 of your troop are sick. If US go for Iran you will see figures like 1 million. This is no counting the dead which will be maybe 100,000.

All in all US need to deploy like 750,000 troops into mid east. And if that region blows up I think you need like 1 million.

The Roman empire went broke trying to defend conquer territories. The US is already broke. Once you attack US economy will collapse so fast you wont even know what hit you.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. The Iranian Army will prove to be a formidable enemy ...
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 11:02 PM by ElectroPrincess
If we invade Iran we will suffer major casualties AND a draft would have to be put in motion - full bore. :argh:

On Edit: IMO Biden is an arrogant a**hole. Sometimes I wonder if he pontificates "wild mood swings" on positions, only because he loves the sound of his own voice in the limelight.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #29
78. totally agree about biden...
I think he is in love with his own voice. I am so fucking sick of him. He will be on Face the Nation this morning too! Probably saying what a success Iraq is today because people GOT to vote!

AAARRRGGGHHH....
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Mystified Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. I wonder
I wonder if Israel will attempt to take out Iran's nukes as a favor for Georgie Boy? They could claim preemptive self defense since they are neighbors, relatively speaking, and the gov't of Iran has often spoken publicly of their dislike of Israel. However, I do recall the US urging Israel not to retaliate aginst Saddam in the first Gulf War so as not to make it a "Jews-Arabs" conflict and draw allies to Saddam's side. Who knows what the warmongers in DC will do?
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
11. "We are on the course of unintended consequences"
That's only partly true. The Bush administration actually does intend to have an armed conflict with Iran. Any feints of diplomacy will be "we tried our best" moral figleafs.

It's the consequences to follow which will be untended.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
50. Biden is fooling himself if he believes the PNACers will cease pursuit
of their agenda.

The neoCONimperialists ARE going to attempt to control the M.E. with military force. They don't give a rat's ass about the consequences because they believe another world war would be a good thing.

Maybe, Biden is failing to grasp reality, failing to acknowledge just how fuc*ed up the Bush regime really is.
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
63. Break out the Sunblock 5000-Its gonna be a real HOT summer in the ME!
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
70. That one phrase is the most troubling
It is not facing up to the Bush commitment to take Iran- no matter what- that places Biden in the realm of off the wall missing the point ludicrous arguments. Unintended consequences. Unless Biden, not Iran, faces up to who is the determined, unprincipled aggressor he will be led by the nose further down the path of sort of rubber stamping the inevitable, pre-planned Bush attack. No wonder they can't come up with any ideas how Iran can derail Bush. The position is a priori absurd. Bush has to be stopped, not placated or dared.

Saddam was in a dilemma and chose to bluff it out. Iran should be freer to find other options AND get some nations fully between themselves and the Americans instead of hand-wringing spectators preaching on the hypocritical sidelines. They suffer the same dilemma as with the Iraqi defense. Subversion and espionage within leading to no surprise static defense, prone targets of American air power. Not much of a winning tradition on the ground. Should they attempt something new it could be known, something old it is planned for and the enemy within(as in all countries)means the political opposition needs to be won away from possibly aiding the Americans.

However many Iranians die it will fare much worse for American occupiers. I fear they have another "plan" for Iran that will take things to another shocking level in another stupid dream of quick and easy. That will fail too, inevitably. probably a huge bombing(dirty by definition if it hits nuke facilities) and a coup by the opposition(dream on) which in Iran would be the very secular Sunni groups causing trouble in Iraq. Reverse madness, repeat, never retreat, repeat. Bush and company is much to simpleminded for anything complex. brutality swift simplicity and treachery will ALWAYS be the rule of the day, whether it works or not.

Instead Biden is talking about the PR WMD game we've seen before as if it is a real thing. Skip the sham and just stop it, period. Lots of more dangerous nations have nukes and will be more dangerous still after this is over.

I am guessing we will be seeing many nuclear deaths before two years go by. Biden is in a position to wake up and avoid these intended consequences.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. "You have to grow up and my administration has to grow up,"
Biden really scares me, does he really think that Iran considers him anything more than Chimpy's puppet.
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98geoduck Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. First TELLING Europe "Accept It" pertaining to Bush, now Telling Iran
Is he a Republican spokesman? Or is this the diplomatic highway the Dems are to be taking? This does nothing but strip the integrity away from the country and the party.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
34. Did you read the Sept 04 PNAC letter to Russia? Biden signed it.
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:02 AM by Tinoire
In it they tell Europe to get in line with the US when it comes to Russia. The whole arrogant thing just reeks.


Letter of 100 on Democracy in Russia, September 28, 2004

An Open Letter to the Heads of State and Government
Of the European Union and NATO
September 28, 2004

(snip)
we are deeply concerned that these tragic events are being used to further undermine democracy in Russia. Russia's democratic institutions have always been weak and fragile. Since becoming President in January 2000, Vladimir Putin has made them even weaker. He has systematically undercut the freedom and independence of the press, destroyed the checks and balances in the Russian federal system, arbitrarily imprisoned both real and imagined political rivals, removed legitimate candidates from electoral ballots, harassed and arrested NGO leaders, and weakened Russia's political parties. In the wake of the horrific crime in Beslan, President Putin has announced plans to further centralize power and to push through measures that will take Russia a step closer to authoritarian regime.
We are also worried about the deteriorating conduct of Russia in its foreign relations. President Putin's foreign policy is increasingly marked by a threatening attitude towards Russia's neighbors and Europe's energy security, the return of rhetoric of militarism and empire, and by a refusal to comply with Russia's international treaty obligations. In all aspects of Russian political life, the instruments of state power appear to be being rebuilt and the dominance of the security services to grow. We believe that this conduct cannot be accepted as the foundation of a true partnership between Russia and the democracies of NATO and the European Union.
These moves are only the latest evidence that the present Russian leadership is breaking away from the core democratic values of the Euro-Atlantic community. All too often in the past, the West has remained silent and restrained its criticism in the belief that President Putin's steps in the wrong direction were temporary and the hope that Russia would soon return to a democratic and pro-Western path. Western leaders continue to embrace President Putin in the face of growing evidence that the country is moving in the wrong direction and that his strategy for fighting terrorism is producing less and less freedom. We firmly believe dictatorship will not and cannot be the answer to Russia's problems and the very real threats it faces.
The leaders of the West must recognize that our current strategy towards Russia is failing. Our policies have failed to contribute to the democratic Russia we wished for and the people of this great country deserve after all the suffering they have endured. It is time for us to rethink how and to what extent we engage with Putin's Russia and to put ourselves unambiguously on the side of democratic forces in Russia. At this critical time in history when the West is pushing for democratic change around the world, including in the broader Middle East, it is imperative that we do not look the other way in assessing Moscow's behaviour or create a double standard for democracy in the countries which lie to Europe's East. We must speak the truth about what is happening in Russia. We owe it to the victims of Beslan and the tens of thousands of Russian democrats who are still fighting to preserve democracy and human freedom in their country.

Urban Ahlin Madeleine K. Albright Giuliano Amato
Uzi Arad Timothy Garton Ash Anders Aslund
Ronald D. Asmus Rafael L. Bardaji Wladyslaw Bartoszewski

Arnold Beichman Jeff Bergner Joseph R. Biden
Carl Bildt Max Boot Ellen Bork
Pascal Bruckner Mark Brzezinski Reinhard Buetikofer

Janusz Bugajski Michael Butler Martin Butora
Daniele Capezzone Per Carlsen Gunilla Carlsson
Ivo Daalder Massimo D'Alema Pavol Demes
Larry Diamond Peter Dimitrov Thomas Donnelly
Nicholas Eberstadt Uffe Elleman-Jensen Helga Flores Trejo

Francis Fukuyama Jeffrey Gedmin Bronislaw Geremek
Carl Gershmann Marc Ginsberg Andre Glucksmann
Phil Gordon Karl-Theodor von und zu Guttenberg
Istvan Gyarmati Pierre Hassner Vaclav Havel
Richard C. Holbrooke Toomas Ilves Bruce Jackson
Donald Kagan Robert Kagan Craig Kennedy
Penn Kemble Glenys Kinnock Bernard Kouchner
Jerzy Kozminski Ivan Krastev William Kristol
Girts Valdis Kristovskis Ludger Kuehnhardt Mart Laar
Vytautas Landsbergis Stephen Larrabee
Mark Leonard Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger
Tod Lindberg Tom Malinowski
Will Marshall Margarita Mathiopoulos
Clifford May John McCain Michael McFaul
Matteo Mecacci Mark Medish Thomas O. Melia
Sarah E. Mendelson Michael Mertes Ilir Meta
Adam Michnik Richard Morningstar Joshua Muravchik

Klaus Naumann Dietmar Nietan James O'Brien
Janusz Onyszkiewicz Cem Ozdemir Can Paker
Mark Palmer Martin Peretz Friedbert Pflueger
Danielle Pletka Florentino Portero Samantha Ravich
Janusz Reiter Alex Rondos Jim Rosapepe
Jacques Rupnik Eberhard Sandschneider
Randy Scheunemann Christian Schmidt
Gary Schmitt Simon Serfaty Stephen Sestanovich

Radek Sikorski Stefano Silvestri Martin Simecka
Gary Smith Abraham Sofaer James Steinberg
Gary Titley Ivan Vejvoda Sasha Vondra
Celeste Wallander Ruth Wedgood Richard Weitz

Kenneth Weinstein Jennifer Windsor R. James Woolsey


http://www.newamericancentury.org/russia-20040928.htm

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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
15. The best thing Biden could do is to SHUT UP!!!!
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98geoduck Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. along with Lieberman, Feinstein, and Clinton.
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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. Biden is really carried away with himself these days ...
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
18. What do you people have against Biden? Listen to him.
He's one of the few Senators that actually makes sense. I don't see anything wrong with this comment either! We keep saying we want politicians to tell the truth, and say what they mean, then when they do, many don't like that either!

And yes, he voted for Condi, but, I listened to his explanation of why he did. Every President deserves to have the cabinet he wants, and unless the candidate is absolutely incompetent, and unable to do the job, they should be ok'd. I agree with that! I think Condi will sink herself in this job, and so will Shrub. Let them do it. We wouldn't have liked anyone who Shrub would have chosen, and I'm sure many would have been worse.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. He's smart enough to make sense sometimes
but generally he is way too middle of the road. He seems to think he's one of Bush's advisors. Guess what? he's not.He needs to take a stand .
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. You know, I agree with you mostly
He did some pretty eloquent speaking, although he voted for Rice. He didn't mince words - he told her exactly what he thought. Matter of fact, I think he made her quite uncomfortable, which is commendable.

He is speaking out against our administration in this article (at least the way I read it), in quite a public way. HE'S not trying to start a war with Iran - shrubshit is, and everyone already knows it, so it wasn't exactly a big secret. They DO have to grow up, and so do we, although the odds of our regime doing any changing are slim to none. Sure, I would have preferred that he vote against the Con, but today is another day.

In my opinion, anyone who speaks out against our administration and the road it's heading down, can only help. It's like he's speaking out of frustration, which I can certainly understand, because he obviously IS frustrated, and who wouldn't be?
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. What DO they have to grow up about?
Last time I checked, it was the US threatening other states with extinction.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I don't disagree with that
but they're toying with the bait, and they really shouldn't when there's an obviously insane man in the white house. It's not a game, it's about blowing up countries. They're kind of saying "bring it on" which is NOT a good idea.
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. The stakes are high
Acquiring a nuclear deterrent is an effective way to prevent US aggression. Can't really blame the Iranians when one looks at the available choices from their point of view.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. And I don't blame them
I just wish they didn't have to use the language chimpy likes to respond to. I blame chimp and his buddies and no one else. It probably doesn't matter what kind of language the Iranians use - if he wants to go after them, he will. Things like world opinion, his own country's opinion, even being nuked won't stop him. He's been "chosen". Not by me, though. He needs to be locked up where he belongs.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. I don't trust him
His history gives me no reason to trust him.

The only consistant thing about him, is that he loves to hear himself speak, especially in front of a camera.
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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. I don't agree with all he says, but he sure seems to have some balls!
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98geoduck Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. He comes across as arrogant in his speaking manners.
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 11:17 PM by 98geoduck
He should lower the tone, because from what I'm reading on other blogs, he's nothing but a "puppet to Bush" in the eyes of Europeans and other foreigners. Not the ideal for bringing nations together.

Telling Countries to "grow up" and "accept it" is like O'reilly telling you to just "shut up". He's not on the DU blog saying these things.

Words mean a Lot in diplomacy.
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Byronic Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
40. Totally agree
Joe "You Europeans" Biden should realize the importance of words more than most. It was his use of other people's words (Kinnock's) that helped derail his last presidential bid. His own words threaten to harm relations with Europe further (if such a thing is possible).

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I am a fan of much that Biden has done in the past, but his arrogant lecturing to Europe really annoyed me. Europe has had enough of that during the last four years.

Diplomacy, Mr Biden, is a word you should study further. Maybe Neil Kinnock has written something on the subject.....
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
35. This sounds like a backhand at Bush to me.
"I hope we're all smarter about this, smarter than we've been," he said. Alluding to the refusal by Bush to rule out an armed response to Iran's nuclear plans, he said: "I hope our leadership is brighter because if it's not, it's a very dull picture for the region, and for humanity."

A backhand to Bush and a forehand to Iran. Basically, anybody who wants to mess with nukes - us, or them - is playing a very sad game.

That's the way I read it, anyway.
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Rockerdem Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
36. Nuclear war is coming in the Middle East in the next 10-20 years
Plan on it. Get used to it. There are enough nuts with money and resources, and a suicidal martyr mentality. Throw in hurt pride and an inferiority complex. Take the average American fundie, multiply the insanity factor by 5, and you have a Middle East fundie.

This has been boiling for 30+ years, but technology has finally met with desire and motivation. The US wont be firing the first shots either. It will be the homies.
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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Battle of the F-undies
Come to think about it, maybe this is a good thing; we could send all our fundies over to Iran to fight with their fundies, they can all enjoy their rapture and all go to heaven, leaving the rest of us in peace.

Best argument for war yet!
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
65. Amen to that. Two birds with one stone!
Good riddance!
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. what? we won't fire the first shots? you mean like Iraq? The US will
try out their newest nukes the first chance they get.
They don't want to lose any troops in a conflict but have every intention of controlling ALL of the oil in the Middle East.
There is no conflict if you remove the conquerers from the equation.

The only suicidal martyr mentality in this standoff is that of our arrogant "leaders" who would risk it all to get a little sweeeeet crude for their buddies like Halliburton. Killing 100 thousand civilians is a sick sick thing, and at least 50% of our citizens do not support this.

-Those who defend themselves and would die to protect their own land and their own culture from invaders could actually be considered "honorable"-What if some idiots tried to move into our country and take over? See if any murkins would strap on a bomb and blow up theselves to help protect their fellow countrymen--Not any of the selfish idiots in my neighborhood!

And that "martyr mentality" you mentioned,--> corporate aggressors are the ones with the martyr mentality---our so called "leaders" who are so damn stupid they'd attack and invade without ever contemplating the aftermath or the consequences--
Are they truly ignorant of the fact that other large countries like China and Russia have a vital interest in keeping oil flowing to their own countries and are NOT about to sit back and watch the U.S. knock'm down one by one (as indicated in the PNAC plan)????

first shots? you'd better believe our freedumb loving U.S. of A. would sucker punch any country to get the "jump"--Dirty lowdown "leaders" we have--lowest of the low-no ethics- no morals- no conscience- killing in the name of freedumb.

Watch what happens--the world will come together to stop them even if our own citzens won't.
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Rockerdem Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. Get real.
The US has had plenty of opportunity to use nukes in the past that were much more serious than Iraq is now. Korea, Vietnam, Cuban missile crisis, the Iranian embassy crisis, you name it.

Right now, the US could eliminate the whole Sunni population in a week without dusting off any nukes. But that it not our style.

Nuclear warfare is coming, it will be in the Middle East, and it will be locals. Start in Tel Aviv, move westward, and you have the biggest collection of fundie nuts on the planet. It's hard to believe now, but Afghanistan is one of the saner areas in the whole frinkin region.
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #46
68. before, we never had a Chimp in power-Now they invade
other countries totally unprovoked.
Never in history has this happened.
And remember the U.S. was the only country to ever use a
Nuke in a war.
Don't you know about the new "mini" nukes congress just approved of last year? They just can't wait to try them out.

Nuclear war isn't really a war--
the sky turns black around the entire world and nuclear winter sets in.
This is our future for those of us who do survive.
If you die tomorrow have you done the things in this world you wanted to do?
Something to think about for everyone.

There are no good guys or bad guys, just stupid guys.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
42. Meal from Hell Whets Appetite for US-Iran Clash
...A World Economic Forum dinner designed to promote dialogue between Iran and the United States on Friday night began with a comic strip series of diplomatic and gastronomic blunders, and ended with a sharp exchange over nuclear weapons.
...
The star guest, U.S. Senator Joe Biden, ranking Democrat on the Senate foreign relations committee, was missing. The organizers kept saying he was on his way.

Moderator David Ignatius, a Washington Post columnist, apologized for the fact that wine had been served, upsetting the Muslim guests. Waiters cleared the offending glasses.

They also removed the menus since the hotel had planned to serve non-hallal meat, breaching Islamic dietary rules. Even the soup spoons were withdrawn -- erroneously, it transpired.

One participant asked whether different cultures could not tolerate each other's dietary customs. Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi responded that tolerance was fine but it did not mean people should not respect each other's religious values. If wine was served, his delegation could not participate in the meal, he said.

...o more...

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsN...
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. I've met 'uneducated' people with better manners than our
government. Common courtesy suggests finding out the dietary needs of one's guests. It's easy! All it takes is concern for the feelings of others.

Between Dick Cheney's 'fashion faux pas' and our failed attempts at something so simple as dinnertime diplomacy, we'll have the whole world attacking us in no time.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. it's almost as if they are being rude on purpose
nt
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Rude?
This wasn't something set up by the Bush White House; it was arranged by the World Economic Forum. They had expensive wine on the tables! How awful! How insensitive!

How childish of the Iranian delegation to act like primadonnas about it.

The Forum even stiffed a Swiss political cartoonist at the last second because they were afraid of offending their guests.

I don't think it was the Forum that was being rude.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Of course it's rude
And the expense of the wine is completely irrelevant. Setting a bloody rare prime rib in front of a vegetarian would also be rude, but heaven forbid anyone respect others, not to mention the stakes involved in this instance.

Odd that anyone would consider someone else's convictions childish.
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Rockerdem Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. The Iranian guy sounds like a fundie prick
If he was being forced to eat pig or drink wine, thats one thing. But sneering at another persons choice is rude to the max.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #49
67. If only fundies the world round could rise to our level
of graciousness and tolerance and kindness :eyes:

It costs nothing to exhibit manners. Nothing. -and the potential gains are enormous. Someone has to start. Why shouldn't it be those who consider themselves to be enlightened? Or is the answer really for everyone to dig in and call names while the bushies drive us all toward nuclear oblivion?
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
53. This is good of Biden.
He took a chance to talk directly to the Iranians and he was smart about it. Good job
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Biden is a PNAC warmongering wolf in Dem's clothing ...
I wouldn't trust that DINO ba*tard as far as I could throw his arrogant a**.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #55
69. Back it up.
Show me how he is part of PNAC and/or even supports their agenda. Voting for the Iraq was isn't enough.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Read THIS thread a little closer ; )
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Well. that was pretty good.
Thanks :thumbsup: Why would he sign his name to anything they do, even if he agrees? Gotta love Biden.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Gotta love Biden?!?
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 11:30 PM by ElectroPrincess
:wtf:

Why? For behaving like Republicans? I wish these folks would change parties. I could respect them much more for being honest about devotion to their corporate masters and the war machine.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. That was sarcastic
I don't know what to think of him. I thought he handled this Iran thing well. I generally feel like Biden is flaky. He does some dumb shit sometimes. Other times he's brilliant. It's not like he's consistent on that. I'm not a lover or a hater of Biden's. Thankfully, I live outside of Delaware.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
57. Screw off Biden. How is it that Iran is participating in diplomacy with
the EU without any problem??

YOU need to grow up Biden!

You assholes threaten them constantly and then expect them to cooperate with you??
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American liberal Donating Member (915 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
58. This complementary article shows that U.S. not sensitive to cultural
differences.

Biden was an hour and a half late to the dinner.

They served wine (which was taken away after attending Muslims complained).

They served the wrong kind of meat for Muslim participants.

Biden's wife showed up in leather pants and bare arms.

It didn't sound to me like a function that was heavy on diplomacy.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=2...

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420inTN Donating Member (803 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #58
76. Sounds like the hotel really screwed the pooch on this one n/t
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
59. Meal whets appetite for Iran clash
...and so it goes as we grovel for peace ...

DAVOS, Switzerland (Reuters) -- A World Economic Forum dinner designed to promote dialogue between Iran and the United States began with a comic strip series of diplomatic and gastronomic blunders, and ended with a sharp exchange over nuclear weapons.

With Iran's vice-president and foreign minister in the room, the organizers of the dinner on Friday night began by announcing they had disinvited Swiss cartoonist Patrick Chappatte, one of the listed panelists, because the issues were too serious.

The star guest, U.S. Senator Joe Biden, ranking Democrat on the Senate foreign relations committee, was missing. The organizers kept saying he was on his way.

Moderator David Ignatius, a Washington Post columnist, apologised for the fact that wine had been served, upsetting the Muslim guests. Waiters cleared the offending glasses.

more...

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/01/29/davos.ir...
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old blue Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Well, now I certainly have high hopes. n/t
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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Dessert anyone?
rofl
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
66. The Iranians had better listen to Biden, or...


PS: Nice hair plugs, Joeyboy. You still look like a jerkoff.

Redstone
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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #66
75. Thanks, I will never be able to sleep now?
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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #66
80. That's a mushroom, not a mushroom cloud...
everybody know's that Condi is fed shit and kept in the dark.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
79. Biden is a blowhard who votes with the administration (aka Fence Sitter)
n/t
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