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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:17 PM
Original message
BBC obtains Iraq casualty figures
Coalition troops and Iraqi security forces may be responsible for up to 60% of conflict-related civilian deaths in Iraq - far more than are killed by insurgents, confidential records obtained by the BBC's Panorama programme reveal.

Official figures, compiled by Iraq's Ministry of Health, break down deaths according to insurgent and coalition activity. They are usually available only to Iraqi cabinet ministers.

The data covers the period 1 July 2004 to 1 January 2005, and relates to all conflict-related civilian deaths and injuries recorded by Iraqi public hospitals. The figures exclude, where known, the deaths of insurgents


3,274 civilians killed in total
2,041 by coalition and Iraqi security forces
1,233 by insurgents
12,657 civilians wounded in total
8,542 by coalition and Iraqi security forces
4,115 by insurgents


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/4217413....


These are number for just the last SIX MONTHS. They do not include the 1000's of civilian casualties that occurred during Shock & Awe and the invasion.



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kuozzman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. ahem....bullshit......ahem......scuse me. n/t
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. What's BS about it? -nt-
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 06:21 PM by DireStrike
If it were lies, wouldn't it be the other way around? More by insurgents than coalition?

Or do you think they're deflating the numbers?
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kuozzman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Yes, deflating the numbers. n/t
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. The grave count via the public notice assembly work of the NGO's is
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 05:39 PM by papau
over 20,000 in the first year.

and the "missing" would imply about 100,000 to date from the invasion date.

I assume a large number of them are in the mass graves dug by the US Army

As I recall the Army actually killed a photographer that was trying to take photos of the mass graves.

I suspect as per the usual free press in the US history of reporting truth, you will have to wait 20 years until a research book is published with real numbers.

And the depleted uranium deaths are now starting - but we do not talk about them.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I believe you are referring to Mazen Dana
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 06:02 PM by DoYouEverWonder



He was killed in front of Abu Ghraib prison before most people had ever heard of the place. I've seen the footage that he was taping when he was killed. He was in plain sight on a clear day and the troops that killed him from their armored tank were in no danger, they had plenty of time to ID him before they shot him.

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Yes I was - Mazen Dana was a good brave man that deserved a better
end.

I concluded that the grave digging that going on near the tank was the reason they prevented his filming in that direction. At least I was told that there was grave digging going on.

Whatever the truth as to the situation around the tank, there was no reason to kill him.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. it was cold blooded murder....
such a brave man.

RIP... :(
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. These numbers seem too low
Although the proportions may well be correct. Who knows how many are just ignored if a body can't be identified, or how many civilians are arbitrarily called insurgents just to keep the civilian body count down.

I wouldn't be surprised if Iraqis are keeping a separate set of books to show the world, once the U.S. troops and any puppet governments are gone. Those numbers will be at least ten times higher.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
26. These are the numbers that go through the hospitals
those who die on the streets may never be taken to a hospital in Iraq. It's not as if they have a formal system of coroners, inquests etc.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Compiled by Iraq's Ministry of Health. Yeah right.
Now lets have Jeff Gannon of Talon News tote up how many people love Bush.

Both poll counts would be equal in believability.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Do note that these figures only cover the last 6 months...
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 06:13 PM by tx_dem41
I'm still not sure they are accurate, but they aren't covering the whole time period of the war.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Plus these are just 'civilian' casualties
that means they probably excluded every Iraqi male which is were the most of the casualties are.

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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. misleading Numbers- they massacred the citizens of Iraq
Worst mass murder since the Third Reich-
so proud to be 'n Murkan!
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. Bush himself even said it.
I was surprised - it was the first time I've heard him make any reference to Iraqi deaths. He said,

"the terrorists have killed many of their own people".
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. What was the real reason for this massacre.. perhaps his "daddy"
would like to comment on this frigging warcrime.... oh wait, we aren't supposed to talk about that.... nevermind.

WARNING!!!!! GRAPHIC PHOTO!!!

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/iraqg...
>>The above photo is of the incinerated body of an Iraqi soldier on the Highway of Death, a name the press has given to the road from Mutlaa, Kuwait, to Basra, Iraq. U.S. planes immobilized the convoy by disabling vehicles at its front and rear, then bombing and strafing the resulting traffic jam for hours. More than 2,000 vehicles and tens of thousands of charred and dismembered bodies littered the sixty miles of highway.

The clear rapid incineration of the human being suggests the use of napalm, phosphorus, or other incendiary bombs. These are anti-personnel weapons outlawed under the 1977 Geneva Protocols. This massive attack occurred after Saddam Hussein announced a complete troop withdrawal from Kuwait in compliance with UN Resolution 660.

Such a massacre of withdrawing Iraqi soldiers violates the Geneva Convention of 1949, common article 3, which outlaws the killing of soldiers who are out of combat.

There are, in addition, strong indications that many of those killed were Palestinian and Kuwaiti civilians trying to escape the impending siege of Kuwait City and the return of Kuwaiti armed forces. No attempt was made by U.S. military command to distinguish between military personnel and civilians on the highway of death. The whole intent of international law with regard to war is to prevent just this sort of indiscriminate and excessive use of force.<<



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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. The end of the article is telling...Negroponte is ly-y-y-y-ing!
Panorama interviewed US Ambassador John Negroponte shortly before it obtained the figures. He told reporter John Simpson:

"My impression is that the largest amount of civilian casualties definitely is a result of these indiscriminate car bombings.

"You yourself are aware of those as they occur in the Baghdad area and more frequently than not the largest number of victims of these acts of terror are innocent civilian bystanders".

The coalition has yet to respond to the figures.

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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. I like your photo
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thanks
I print batches of them and stick them on fundie cars.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
15. Wow. Just wow.
We are killing and wounding twice as many people trying to get the insurgents as the insurgents are.
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ban-one Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. But Uday and Qusay are dead
so all those other deaths are worth it.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. and we pulled the bone out of his leg to prove it.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #16
30. That's a strange way of looking at it.
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
21. People are starting to leak like crazy
This is going to keep building. We are approaching the tipping point, when the nation turns against the war, and the punkass motherfucker who started it.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
22. kick
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
23. US and allies 'kill most Iraqis'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/4217413....

Coalition and Iraqi troops may be responsible for killing 60% more non-combatants in Iraq than the insurgents, the BBC has learned.
The civilian death toll for the last six months is contained in confidential records obtained by Panorama.

More than 2,000 civilians were killed by the authorities, while insurgent attacks accounted for 1,200 deaths.

The Iraqi Ministry of Health figures are usually available only to members of Iraq's cabinet.

The data covers the period 1 July 2004 to 1 January 2005, and relates to all conflict-related civilian deaths and injuries recorded by Iraqi public hospitals. The figures exclude, where known, the deaths of insurgents.

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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Sure it is true, but...
Those aren't really people after all, just ragtops! (sarcasm at the extreme, now turned off)
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. but but Faux reported that these were foreign fighters -- Fox should be
fined and their commentators "fired" for lack of due diligence as a matter or National Security.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. CIA's World Factbook (is this an oxymoron?) says
there are (were) a little over 25 million people in Iraq. Forty per cent of them are under 14. The median age is 19.

We're making war on teenagers. No child left behind.
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zwielicht Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
27. US Naval Institute Commentary: "They are all enemies"
found this disgusting piece of shit illustrating what's going on in some of those armchair massmurderers' sick minds:
(from http://groups.yahoo.com/group/osint/message/48514 )


"
Civilized Warfare Is Uncivilized

Clausen, Perry
Proceedings of the United States Naval Institute; Jan2005, Vol. 131 Issue 1,p28, 1p, 1c


Waging so-called civilized warfare does not serve the nation's interest. The United States plays by the rules of international law, but its enemies do not. And, because they do not fear us, war is more likely. We have lost track of the fact that military force is violent coercion and must be exercised in a way so frightening that no adversary will consider provoking us.

The goal is not to look civilized. It is to be civilized by deterring wars; failing that, conclude them quickly. But four characteristics of civilized warfare guarantee continued conflict: proportionality, an artificial distinction between combatants and civilians, reluctance to punish collectively, and the undue rush to end conflicts.

Proportional retaliation ensures a never ending cycle of retribution, such as the Palestinian Intifada. It enables our enemies to select the level of violence they can sustain and we cannot. To break that equilibrium, we must deploy overwhelming force in unpredictably disproportionate manners so as to win one conflict and deter the next.

Distinctions between combatants and civilians are artificial because, in fact, they are all enemies. The nation's success in defeatingc onventional military formations and its reluctance to attack civilians provide powerful incentives for adversaries to fight from civilian sanctuaries. But we attacked civilian populations in the past - including our own Civil War - with positive, if distinctly untidy, results. Bombing attacks on German and Japanese cities were essential to ending World War II. Because of respect for the hard side of U.S. policy, there were few incidents of insurgency when we occupied and rebuilt their countries.
...
"

:grr: :grr: :grr: :wtf:
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frictionlessO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
29. this could be very important in our fight against bushco, kick!
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
31. These numbers are pure propaganda
The fact that the numbers killed by coalition and Iraqi security forces is higher is just a trick. Well, of coarse they would be higher, we've been bombing and shooting them for almost 2 years now but only 2,041? this is such crap.

I'm sure that number had to be aproved by Donald Rumsfeld.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. This is just civilian casualties for the last six months
with those two factors in mind, I think these number may not be that far off. As I said earlier, most of the casualties during that period would be Iraqi males and probably any male over the age of three is classified as an insurgent.

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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
33. BBC now retracting.
"Today, the Iraqi Ministry of Health has issued a statement clarifying matters that were the subject of several conversations with the BBC before the report was published, and denying that this conclusion can be drawn from the figures relating to military operations.

It states that those recorded as killed in military action included Iraqis killed by terrorists, not only those killed by Coalition forces or Iraqi security forces; and that those recorded as killed in military action included terrorists themselves, and Iraqi security forces.

The BBC regrets mistakes in its published and broadcast reports yesterday."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4217413....

Negroponte earning his paycheck!
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Too late
we've got the numbers. At least, this gives us a base line to work from. I think this helps prove that the numbers of 100,000 civilians killed during the invasion even more credible.

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