Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Jewish groups threaten legal action against Vatican

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:01 AM
Original message
Jewish groups threaten legal action against Vatican
Haaretz
By The Associated Press

WASHINGTON - U.S. Jewish groups threatened legal action against the Vatican on Thursday, saying the Roman Catholic church has stonewalled their requests for information about Jewish children placed in convents during World War II to protect them from the Nazis.

David Schoen, an Alabama-based attorney, said Thursday that if the church does not agree to open up the records within a week, the Coalition of Jewish Concerns-Amcha would turn to the legal system for help in identifying the missing children.

Speaking to a news conference outside the Vatican's embassy, Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld noted the commemoration ceremony taking place in Poland to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

But, he said, "as long as the children of all those murdered at Auschwitz do not know their true identity, and as long as the murdered at Auschwitz have descendants who do know their true lineage, how can we truly say that Auschwitz has been liberated. We want our chidren back."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/533017.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. Ahh, The Vatican... always so concerned about protecting families n/t
nominate for home page
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. Their ResistenceTo These Reasonable Requests...
... make no sense at all. Why wouldn't they want to cooperate?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Because they raised them as Catholics. A different kind of "ethnic
cleansing."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. I love this, a Jewish Attorney from Alabama.
That's awesome to read.

I wonder why they won't come clean about this...what would they have done with these children?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. why won't they come clean then?
*earnestness still on*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Not in Karl Rove's epic blockbuster script????
Or maybe because the last reworking of an old fave, Mel Gibson's The Passion, made enough $$$$$$$$$$$$$s...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. OK, I'm curious now: What's with all the deleted posts?
I don't want details. There's no point in repeating things that were deleted becausen they were certainly deleted for a reason.

I'm just curious to know in general terms if they were anti-catholic, anti-jewish, or simply personal?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I am guessing all of the above and more...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Of course there are Jewish attorneys in Alabama. I know both of them.
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. More information re: Jewish Children kidnapped by The Vatican
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 12:57 PM by IanDB1
First, I'll point out that this isn't unique to the vatican.

We did the same thing here in American to the Indians. And the Australians did the same thing to the Aboroginese.

(On edit: I think it happened in Canada, too).

On the other hand, in early Jewish cultrure (pre-Christian) there was a law that if you accidentally killed the parents of a non-Jewish child, then you had to raise that child yourself in the religion of his or her parents.

And I'm not sure, but I think Islam might have had a similar law.

Vatican had policy on Jewish kids
Pioneer Press (subscription), MN - Jan 9, 2005
... The document underscores the sanctity with which the Vatican treated the ... had limited success in recovering Jewish children who had been adopted by non-Jews ...
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/nation/10...

Letter Reveals Vatican Policy on Children of Holocaust
... XII, denied that the letter came from the Vatican. ... The letter stated that Jewish
children whose parents were killed during the Holocaust "should not be ...
http://www.isurvived.org/InTheNews/letter-Vatican_Polic...

Letter Reveals Vatican Policy on Children of Holocaust
... XII, denied that the letter came from the Vatican. ... The letter stated that Jewish
children whose parents were killed during the Holocaust "should not be ...
http://www.isurvived.org/InTheNews/letter-Vatican_Polic...

Pope Pius IX
... the pleas of Edgardo's parents, Pio Nono adopted the child ... WW II, which purported
to represent the Vatican's official view that Jewish children who were ...
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/pio_nono.htm...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Related thread in Archive
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Will there ever be a DU discussion about
Jews or Judaism where someone doesn't feel compelled to inject some comment about Israel and Palestine? Gee thee to the I/P forum.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Makes no sense
Your post makes NO sense. These are AMERICAN Jews, not Israelis nor Israeli Jews. It is nothing more than subterfuge!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. No the Jews are not interested in the souls
of these children, their families are interested in finding out what happened to them and if they are still alive. The grown children also have a right to know who their biological families are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. So why does the Vatican not simply release this info? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. That's my question also n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. It could have something to do with other possible crimes
Like WWll art theft, Vatican banking and tax crimes during and after WWll, the issuing of Vatican passports to Nazi leaders after World War
II so that they could escape to south America, state treasurey theft after WWll, sexual abuse by priests (that didn't all of a sudden begin recently) and many other issues they've been accused of over the years.

It has to be that they don't want other information to come out else they would open the Vatican records to help these people find out who they were and where they came from.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mutus_frutex Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. And you keep deleting them..
Are you going to delete this one too? That has no content? What was wrong with the other one?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
26. Good and good luck
Though the RC church doesn't seem to be afraid of going into the courtroom, the courts are the only recourse to the stonewalling. With lots of skill and luck, the information will be extracted out of the grip of the archives sometime this century.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jmc777 Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
27. Have these Jewish groups ever thanked the RC church...

....for saving the children in question? :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. good point
i have no idea of the motives for witholding the info, it could be that they have incomplete records, or they may have sworn to the adopying families that the info would never be released.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Not to start a flame war or anything, but....
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 04:40 PM by fryguy
My understanding of Jewish law is that when a Jew converts or otherwise turns away from his/her faith it is as if they died. Therefore in a sense the children were not "saved". They're bodies might have continued to live, but with the loss of their Jewish identities they are just as dead to the Jewish history and their ancestry as if they had perished in the camps. (You might remember the scenes in movies where a son tells his father he's marrying a non-Jew, at which point the family sits Shivah for him. Same idea.)

Keep in mind, I don't necesarily support this point of view and I'm digging way way back in my Jewish studies, so please correct me if I'm off-base.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
28. the world hates us jews already......
now we're gonna piss them off more by suing the pope - well at least we got enough lawyers in our ranks....

/sarcasm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
30. How fast can you recover the records requested?
Remember the Records are in countries like France, Poland, Hungary, Belgium etc. Italy was late at shipping the Jews to the Camps so you have few records in Italy (Through some).

Thus almost all of the records will be in the local Parishes. Most have NOT computerized their lists. This is further complicated by the fact that the parties to the action made an effort to cover up the Jewish background of the children (Remember Nazi antisemitism was NOT religious in nature but on Blood lines thus the mere fact that you had a Jewish Grandfather was enough to send you to the camp, for example Senator Kerry had he been captured by the Nazi would have been sent to the camp for he is a "Jew" as the Nazi's defined "Jew").

Thus you have dispersed records, hand written parish books (Which were NOT Cross referenced) AND a deliberate policy of covering up any evidence the Jewish background of a child (To protect the Child from the Nazis) two months to get the "Records" is insufficient time. It may take years for any records to be found.

My point is it is simply unreasonable to ask the Church for these records and than two months later say the Church is slow at providing the records. I suspect Grandstanding for the better approach would be to set up a committee to look at the records at the Parish level and once the Committee is set up and adopted a methodology on the search contact the Vatican on assistance on looking at the Church's Records from 1940-1946. If the Church than refuses to co-operate than the critics of the Church could show the Church is the one being unreasonable. Two months is not even enough time to start the process on HOW to look at the Records, What records one has to look at (and what records one does NOT get to look at), get co-operation not only of the Vatican but the Various Bishops of the Countries where most of such adoptions occurred etc.

If these speakers really wanted to address this issue that is what they be doing instead of grandstanding about how bad is the Vatican. The Vatican may be bad but at least give the Vatican a Chance to show its refusal is based on fear instead of impossibility.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. thats what i said
but unlike yourself, after i write ten words my brain just shuts off, thanks :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Aug 21st 2014, 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC