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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:18 AM
Original message
Britain 'sliding into police state'
Britain 'sliding into police state'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,14005...
Alan Travis, Clare Dyer and Michael White
Friday January 28, 2005
The Guardian

The home secretary, Charles Clarke, is transforming Britain into a police state, one of the country's former leading anti-terrorist police chiefs said yesterday.
George Churchill-Coleman, who headed Scotland Yard's anti-terrorist squad as they worked to counter the IRA during their mainland attacks in the late 1980s and early 1990s, said Mr Clarke's proposals to extend powers, such as indefinite house arrest, were "not practical" and threatened to further marginalise minority communities.

Mr Churchill-Coleman told the Guardian: "I have a horrible feeling that we are sinking into a police state, and that's not good for anybody. We live in a democracy and we should police on those standards.

He added: "I have serious worries and concerns about these ideas on both ethical and practical terms. You cannot lock people up just because someone says they are terrorists. Internment didn't work in Northern Ireland, it won't work now. You need evidence."

--more--
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. How refreshing to hear a law enforcement person...
... tell it like it is... and for a mainstream media source to report it.
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NickFun Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. "Britain 'sliding into police state'"
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 08:36 AM by NickFun
The United States is also falling into a police state. Our so-called "war on terrorism" has had the effect of reducing Democracy and creating a paranoid society.
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. that is the plan - terror is the "trojan horse" for One World Govt
they can control the world vs an invisible enemy...
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I'm certainly for one world government. And who are "They"?
The invisible enemy is bad U.S. Policy toward others on this planet.

What are these policies by the way?
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renaissanceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The Alien & Sedition Acts were ridiculed
in Adams' administration. It's a shame how our country has devolved in just the past four years.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/472476
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. It has been a rapid decline. Mind boggling, actually
It could get worse.

Just look at all the stuff the BushCo bounced off us just in the past few days:

Social Security privatization
Cuts to Medicare and Medicaide
Log the Sequoias

Could go on and on....

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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
6. We met some Brits and Aussies in New Orleans last week
...when we were down there to protest. They know this is happening in their country. We talked for hours about politics, and they are so afraid of Bush (as all thinking people are), that one of them, though she couldnt vote here, went door to door in NY, campaigning for Kerry. By the end of the evening we decided it isn't JUST Bush...we are ALL SCREWED.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. She went door to door in New York? Oh boy. Someone has to explain the
electoral college to that woman.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. lol...hadn't thought of it like that
her heart was at least in the right place.
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98geoduck Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Meanwhile, we have a bunch of lame Dems voting for rice and gonzolas
Politicians playing games.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. kick
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. They have an excellent model to copy! n/t
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. Sliding? Doesn't anyone rember the IRA hayday? The UK already had on
the books some of the most incredibly repressive legislation imaginable.

I don't know if it's still the case, but there was a time up until at least 1997 when Blair entered office when you could indefinitely detain someone for questioning without ever having to arrest them. I think was merely that that the police had 48 hours to make a decision whether to hold someone for another 48 hours. So, so long as you were willing to fill out forms (and the British love to fill out forms), you could arrest someone for a pretty long time without ever having to charge that person. If there was any limitation on how this law could be used, I don't remember it.

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. No - Blair has already increased the time they can be held without charge
The Prevention of Terrorism Act, which came in in 1974 and was renewed annually, allowed detention for up to 7 days without charge (this required an application to a magistrate after 2 days - I don't know if a magistrate ever turned down an application). So does the Terrorism Act 2000, which replaced that. The Criminal Justice Act 2003 has allowed that to be extended to fourteen days.

References:

http://www.historyonthenet.com/Chronology/timelinenorth...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3683244.stm
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs2/hoc0204.html
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
15. MPs plan revolt against house arrest plan
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?sto...

MPs plan revolt against house arrest plan
By Robert Verkaik and Nigel Morris
29 January 2005


MPs are planning a parliamentary revolt over the Government's "chilling" measures to place the families and friends of suspected terrorists under house arrest.

Charles Clarke said yesterday that the terror threat faced by Britain meant it was necessary to restrict the freedom of contact, association and movement of the families, friends and associates of suspected terrorists. Under the proposals, relatives and other associates of suspects could be searched every time they enter their homes or be banned from using telephones or the internet, the Home Secretary said.

The measures are a direct response to the House of Lords which last month ruled unlawful the indefinite detention of 11 terror suspects in Belmarsh and other high-security prisons. Lawyers for the detainees are to make a fresh attempt to free them on Monday when the Special Immigration Appeals Commission holds bail hearings. They will say they should be freed because Mr Clarke has accepted the Law Lords' ruling.

And the Pentagon is continuing to claim that four Britons released from Guantanamo Bay still pose a real security threat. Moazzam Begg, Feroz Abbasi, Martin Mubanga and Richard Belmar were freed without charge the day after they were flown home. The Metropolitan Police accepted there was insufficient evidence to hold them under the Terrorism Act. It is understood that the men are now considering financial offers from the media for interviews.

..more..
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Massachusetts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
16. "The Revolution will not be televised".
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. Maybe Mr. Chertoff can have a chat with Churchill-Coleman
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
18. Even the Tories oppose this proposal
And their Shadow Home Secretary, David Davis, is certainly no bleeding heart liberal. Internment without trial failed in Northern Ireland and had to be abolished. It merely acted as a recruiting agent for the paramilitaries. Since the tactic has no proved of absolutely no worth in fighting terrorism you have to wonder what Blairs real motives are for adopting it now.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
19. so far its all talk...
lets wait and see what they actually do. I only judge actions
before i go off on a chicken little screaming sesssion about police
states and the lack of accountability. It seems rather that the freedom
of information act has actually undermined said police state if we're
looking at recent actions.

As well, this thread shows how the worst poverty is being tackled that
these people are not under the iron heel.. don't have link, but posted
today in LBN about getting 1 million britons out of poverty by
making social security benefits inclusive for women who've been home
workers during their career (part time & housewives). A country that
takes care of its poor is certainly working against the police state
label in one regard.

Lets wait for some actions before calling clark the devil.
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. It may be all talk now but who knows what the future holds
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 11:52 AM by fedsron2us
Arbitary power exercised by governments without any checks afforded by the due process of law nearly always ends in tyranny.

I personally would prefer 'habeus corpus' to any cosmetic Freedom of Information Act. Anyway Ministers have reserved an extensive right of veto over what data can be released under the latter legislation so I expect there will be no real change in the culture of secrecy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4145069.stm

As for New Labour's success in eliminating poverty the results are far from conclusive. Families with children are better off. Other groups such as the disabled have fared far less well. Although the condition of the elderly pensioners has improved British citizens still pay more in National Insurance yet receive some of the most miserly pensions in the western world. Even the US system is more generous to the old although Bush's proposed Social Security 'reforms' are going to change that situation. Most of the egalitarian policies that have emenated from New Labour can be traced back to the Chancellor Gordon Brown not to Blair. I suspect that if the Prime Minister had his way the poor would be no better off than under his Tory predecessor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4055415.stm
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. The fate of the 51st state
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deacon2 Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
22. Welcome to the club
Here in the good old USA, we're doing our best to mimic Orwell's 1984:

Third Columnist Was Paid by Bush Agency

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=3...

At the Washington Post, a reporter regales us with tales of Soviet style "escorts" while attempting to report on the Inaugaration:

Don't mind me. I'm just doing my job.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46409-20...

Surprisingly, this from The American Conservative. I think dyed-in the wool conservatives are starting to realize that Bush is NOT one of their own, but much closer to a Stalinist aberration of what they believe in.

The administration quarantines dissent.
http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html

As reported at dailykos, a protester has just been convicted as "being a threat to the president."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/28/223223/440

The fact that we can still discuss and distribute these outrages here on the "internets" will be challenged soon enough.

If you didn't feel the urgency before, it's time to get religion on this. The front line is drawn and the motion is fast and furious. All most as if they know their window of opportunity is closing already. That makes for desperation - never a good thing for folks that control the courts and the guns.
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