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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:30 AM
Original message
Christians face hearing in felonies at gay rights event
Four Christian activists face arraignment tomorrow in Philadelphia on felony charges in what they describe as their "peaceful protest" of a homosexual rights event last fall.

The defendants, all members of an evangelical Christian group called Repent America, "exercised their First Amendment rights by preaching the Gospel, and they did it peacefully," said Brian Fahling, an attorney for the American Family Association, who is representing them.
...
The defendants, known to their supporters as the "Philadelphia Four," have become a cause celebre for Christian conservatives and commentators.

Robert Knight, director of the Culture and Family Institute, an affiliate of the Concerned Women for America, said it was "frightening to see religious persecution on American soil, especially in the birthplace of the Declaration of Independence."
...
In addition to the felony charges, the four Repent America members who will be arraigned today are charged with several misdemeanors, including failing to disperse, disorderly conduct, obstructing the highway, recklessly endangering another person and possessing an instrument of crime presumably the bullhorn.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050110-095925-2563r...
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. Scary.
While I revile their message and tactics, I am not at all comfortable with them being charged with felony counts that could net them 47 years in jail.

While what they did was a crime for failure to listen to the officers, I think this is over the top.

I know I would not any to be charged with something like this at a protest.

Although I would listen to law enforcement if told to disperse.

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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. You sure about that?
"I know I would not any to be charged with something like this at a protest."

If you behaved the same way, I think you would.

A man protesting Chimp's motorcade in Indianapolis was charged with assault on a police officer because a motorcycle pig claimed he was trying to knock him off his bike with a flag he was waving.

24 people got hit with Kerik's Cattle Prods(tm) for failing to obey officer's orders not to take to the field after the Fiesta Bowl.

Need I go on? Welcome to RoboCop Murka.

Of course, you qualified your staement by saying
"...I would listen to law enforcement if told to disperse."

Hopefully, you'll disperse fast enough to satisfy the pigs. My hunch is you could sprint like Carl Lewis and that wouldn't be fast enough to save you an ass-beating with TASER sprinkles on top.
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. I am sure.
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 07:17 AM by Seldona
Seems they are being charged with a hate-crime for protesting at a gay rally.

That smacks to me of being charged for the CONTENT of their protest.

I have no problem with them having their say. In fact I am glad they do it, as many people get exposure to the madness of their ideas.

And as for them being charged with whatever law covers their failure to heed law enforcment, you bet I support that.

In short my only problem is I saw some of the charges as a free speech issue. And that is the only reason I had a problem with it.

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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
26. You missed my point entirely. eom.
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Jesus H. Christ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
40. Oh, yes, those poor persecuted bigots.
They're being persecuted for their faith. There's nothing wrong with failing to disperse, disorderly conduct, obstructing the highway, recklessly endangering another person and possessing an instrument of crime.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. After All... They Were Doing It In The Name Of Their Faith
and that excuses everything, right? :eyes:
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Jesus H. Christ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. As long as they accept Jesus into their hearts...
they can do whatever they want.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
66. The Radical Right's Latest Courtroom Drama
Sarah Posner (2:52PM) link
http://gadflyer.com/flytrap/index.php?Week=200501

(scroll down for article)
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
70. What would happen if gays held a peaceful protest at a church service?
Private-property issues notwithstanding, would they not also be charged for the content of their protest?

I understand completely your point, just giving some food for thought.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. They were obstructing people who were lawfully demonstrating
I have no probelm throwing the book at obstructors who prevented others from partaking in this event. I'm all for counter-protesting, but they need to stay out of the intital groups way and recognize the boundaries established by police.

This group should have its own demonstration if they want to make a point, where they make the rules.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. They weren't moving towards, they were all over them
These guys are repeat offenders. They have accosted gay groups before. There is a lot of spin being put on this story by the right.
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. I wish the cops would have done this at our pre-war pro-peace protest
Instead they allowed the pro-war people to join in our group, in a park that we had rented, and yell and scream. They screamed over our songs and our speakers. Evidently the idea of peace was offensive to them. One of the many local hate radio stations had invited them to come and harrass us.
The swat team was assembled and watching us from a nearby 'secret' location. I found this out after from a 'conection' I have.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I agree...
The last thing we need is to give the Xians new martyrs.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. In NYC, they arrested people for following police instructions
This is different:

The protesters at three times ignored police commands to move, according to the report, before moving toward the event's main stage opposite to the direction of the commands.

The case will be interesting and has to be closely watched for the reasons that you cite.
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Harry S Truman Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Let's see...
If every Xtian bigot spent 47 years in jail, we'd have ... probably 47 years of peace, tolerance and a quite scerene society. Lovely. Throw the key away.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
43. I was trying not to say it ... so hard ... but I agree.
I read the rightwing websites, and they are deliberately exaggerating this and blowing it up, in order to make it their cause celebre. I have read their sites faithfully for over a year. During the last few months, it seems to me as if they are setting up incidents, so that they can make legal challenges to certain separation-of-church-and-state and obstructionist barriers.

I went to the Michael Moore gathering in San Marcos, at the Del Mar racetrack. The oppo was allowed to protest on the sidewalk as we drove into the parking lot. The police were right there, and they were not permitted to harass individual cars, and the police were strict about this. They were permitted a protest/free-speech area as we walked into view the presentation, but they were not allowed to physically accost us ('course I would have loved it if they had tried).

Contrast this with the account you read about this incident. They were not 'praying quietly,' but, unlike the MM lecture I attended, were interfering with people entering the event area.

Not that I think they should get decades in prison. These guys were so obnoxious - it is just my fantasy that they would.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
60. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jesus H. Christ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #60
73. The literal translation? Absolutely.
The literal translation says homosexuals are evil and should be put to death.

Is that bigotry yup, and anybody who believes it is a bigot.

Same thing goes if they Bible said, "them niggers is dumb, and you should lynch them."

No, the question is, if the Bible said that would you still believe it?

Oh, have I wandered into a timewarp? First you're talking about blasphemy, now you're apologizing for that bastard MacArthur. Does this have anything to do with the movie MacArthur being on recently? Or are you just randomly throwing around antiquated rightwing rhetoric?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. The thing is, Fundies AREN'T Fundies
They cherry pick what they want from the Bible, usually the Old Testament. If they WERE real Fundamentalists, they would live like Abraham.

I once had an Episcopalian priest say this to me: "There's no way anybody would look at a 2,000 text for medical advice, so why do people look at it to prove discrimination?" A good guy. A righteous Christian.
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Jesus H. Christ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. The Bible contradicts itself in many places.
So believing in the literal interpretation is logically impossible, but of course most people who say they believe in the literal interpretation have never actually read the thing.

There was a survey years ago that found most people who considered themselves fundamentalist christians thought that Joan of Arc was Noah's wife.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #76
88. You made that up. LOLLLLLL
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Harry S Truman Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #60
75. trav? short for travesty? I knew it.
On your bible: Yes, it teaches bigotry. It's a lie, a concoction, a fable. Get over it. Love comes from the human heart, the human mind.

On Truman: Stopping a rail strike that was about to shut down the US economy is not breaking unions. Harry would be Howard Dean today.
And is the general you do dearly speak of MacArthur? Save lives? The loon wanted to use nuclear weapons on the Chinese and start World War III in Korea. You remember that, trav? Mac was so popular that when he came home and tried to run for president, he got laughed right back to the farm. Or, as a dear old conservative lady I know from those days once told me: "Sure, we loved MacArthur. We just didn't realize until later that he was nuts."

And that micro-management you speak of is ... uh ... just the Constitution. Read it. It beats the bible by a mile.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. The Bible Also Teaches
That slavery is cool, it's okay to kill your kid is s/he sasses off to you, have as many wives as you want, and hey, you know all of those women? They're chattel! Treat 'em like hell!!!
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. No, No, NO!!
These idiots went to the gay event with the intent to disrupt it by reading the bible. They were told to disperse and refused and are now trying to use the act of reading the bible as some kind of veil of immunity to justify their refusal to stop their disruption and disperse.

These idiots would like nothing more than to be able to say and justify that they are being persecuted. They WANT to be persecuted.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I agree that they want to be persecuted
Why else would they go where they are not wanted and confront people? Now they can go cry on shows like "The 700 Club" and O'Reilly about how badly christians are being persecuted in this country, and the people who are stupid enough to believe them will rally to their cause, and of course, send Pat Robertson/Jay Sekulow more money.

After all, don't gays and liberals want the Bible banned as hate speech? Not to mention all of us secular humanists who are trying to steal Christmas from them.
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. My only objection
was that as I understood it they were being charged for the content of their message. I guess I read that wrong and apologize.

I have no other problem with any other charges.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #62
86. Defenders of bigotry
So, you are basically saying it is OK for a group to interfere with another group's right to free association, freedom of expression, and right to assembly, IF the person uses the Bible? It is a shame that people use the Bible to uphold their bigotry and hate.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Deleted message
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
50. This wasn't civil disobedience
That would have been kneeling and praying or going limp when the cops tried to drag them away. Standard protest stuff -- $100 fine, like you said. This group's purpose is to disrupt. Per the police reports and video, their actions were very intimidating, and were done to cause a massive public disturbance, ie a riot. Because this group planned to break the law en masse, it is legally a conspiracy. All of these charges were misdemeanors, btw.

They were illegally trespassing and physically and verbally confronting people -- very in-your-face. In many states, this is legally assault. They purposely broke the law and now are crying persecution. Boo hoo.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, FOLKS!
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #50
90. It they had a history of such actions, they would be treated harsher.
Some misdemeanors become felonies if the individual does not heed the courts. In FL, drunk driving does not become a felony until #3, I think. It may be #2 now, but the first is a misdemeanor.
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
82. that goes to show that they don't read their bibles
because they are commanded to follow the laws of the land wherever they live by that same bible.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. If you disobeyed cops three times when they told you to move
it would happen. Peaceful protests are created by ORDER.

From the article:
The protesters at three times ignored police commands to move, according to the report, before moving toward the event's main stage opposite to the direction of the commands.

Not only did they IGNORE the order, they DEFIED it and moved toward the stage.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
58. failure to listen to officers....
in the minds of some officers that justifies shooting you...

fucking pigs.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
67. They Should Be Sent to the Electric Chair
With Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and D. James Kennedy sitting in their laps.

:-)
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
81. they're liars, if anything
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 03:50 PM by SemperEadem
How can you be peacefully protesting when you're using a bullhorn to 'preach the gopsel' at those you abhor at an event where you're not in the 'free speech' zone?

The bullhorn removed the 'peaceful' in their protest.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
5. those poor victimised christians
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 06:59 AM by xchrom
america is a terrible place -- they should leave it.
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slutticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
92. No shit. Cry me a fucking river, martyr
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rogerashton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
7. I agree that the charges are over the top, but
if the people charged had been a group of anarchist atheists, they would be in for the max -- and perhaps it is time that sauce for the goose should also be sauce for the Xians.
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. were these the ones who'd been previously chastized for a similar thing?
i'm not sure, but i seem to recall something about these folks having been in trouble previously for the same sort of protest? if so, it could be why the harsher treatment.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
56. Yes, repeatedly
On the level of that other nutcase out of Kansas, Fred whatever his name is. The one guy is "featured" on the Army of God web site. They go all over the place stirring up shit. I have no sympathy for any of them, this is exactly what they want. Well they got it.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
10. more from another source
http://www.covenantnews.com/repent041216.htmd

The Christians were a part of an evangelistic effort organized by Repent America, which frequently preaches at homosexual gatherings in Philadelphia. The charges against Repent America Director Michael Marcavage include three felonies: Criminal Conspiracy, Ethnic Intimidation, which falls under Hate Crimes, and Riot; as well as five Misdemeanors: Reckless Endangerment, Possession of Instruments of Crime, Failure to Disperse, Disorderly Conduct, and Obstructing Highways. Mark Diener and James Cruse are charged with Criminal Conspiracy, Failure to Disperse, Disorderly Conduct, and Obstructing Highways. Dennis Green is charged with Criminal Conspiracy, Disorderly Conduct, and Obstructing Highways. The "Criminal Conspiracy" charge links all of the Defendants together, therefore Marcavage's "Ethnic Intimidation" charge will be linked to the other Defendants.

During the hearing, Judge Meehan watched a videotape of the arrests, and turned his head toward the Defendants each time he saw one of them in the video footage. Apparently, the charges were dropped against the six other Defendants because they were not seen quoting scripture on the videotape.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Deleted message
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. I thought that interesting also!
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Jesus H. Christ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
41. They probably shouted some racial epitephs as well.
Homophobes are usually racists as well.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
63. Deleted message
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Jesus H. Christ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Blasphemers are often racists?
Where are you getting that idea?

And what is this, the 15th century?

Blasphemy is a virtue.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #63
71. Have Fun While You're Here...
eom
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #63
78. blasphemers???
Right now the biggest blasphemers are members of the religious right who talk a good talk, but walk a very bad walk.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Who did Jesus rail against???
Those would used their religion for hypocrisy and intolerance.

Trav, just because we're liberals doesn't mean we don't have religious chops.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. "Who did Jesus rail against???" you ask?
The ones who hated him the most were the church elders and hierarchy. He seemed to get along famously with those that nowadays would be concidered liberal.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
11. I defer to the courts to decide the legal outcome --
-- but at the heart of the Christians' counter-protest is a vigorous bigotry.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
15. Deleted message
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. If they broke the law then they need to pay.
The charges are based on Pennsylvania law, I know here in Arizona most conspiracy charges are considered felonies.

The law has to be applied equally, I would've expected the same thing if it was an anti-war protest and the protesters refused to follow the directions of the authorities.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
61. "They were charged with criminal conspiracy, rioting ...
... and ethnic intimidation."
School's Diversity Day will go on despite opposition
The Intelligencer
December 17, 2004 8:05 AM
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/113-12172004-418...

I don't know whether they're guilty or not. And I really can't speak about the Philly police. But these ARE real felony charges. And I really don't trust the Moonie press.

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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
20. The religious right is going to be using this one as a battle flag
They are ramping up the issue that the hate speech they were supposedly saying were quotes from the bible. Stories from the people they were counterprotesting suggest there was some other dialog going on as well.

These guys are repeat offenders. Think Fred Phelps lite.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Deleted message
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. They weren't just reading pleasant little bible verses
That is the story as spun by the right. There is a thread locked up in the archives here at DU right now detailing the other side's actual complaint and description of what happened. It is nothing like how it is being spun.

Once the traffic dies down I will try to recover the link. Or if the person that posted it originally sees this thread post it again.
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Roaming Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
52. There is a video of what happened; I watched it, and saw
nothing that would qualify as a felony; they were carrying signs (nothing hateful) and behaving in a peaceful way. When they were arrested, at least a couple of them went limp in protest but that was it. This is very scary.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. Oh baloney
You must have seen an edited version because all reports are that there were heated altercations and several attempts by police to get them to move. Don't be so damned naive.
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Roaming Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #57
89. The link to the video I saw is here; there were no heated
altercations that I could see; just a lot of talking, "why are you doing this, this is against the law, etc." some singing, etc.; later in the video the police and the protestors are talking, but there was nothing violent, and I wouldn't even say there were really any angry words.

The link to the video is about halfway down the page:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_I...



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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. hahahah! This is worldnet.com!
It's the Fundies' video. Their heavily edited one. I think this is a time when I'll trust the cops' videotape.

I grew up by Philly, and when a bunch of Philly cops side with the queers, you know Repent America did something baaaad.
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. Your source
is, IMO, somewhat sympathetic to the alleged felons. It seems to be something akin to a wing-nut site at first glance. I would be suspicious of favorable editing of that particular video.

No offense, just my opinion.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #89
95. okeedoke
Let's forget that it's a link from World Net Daily to a right wing "family" group. Am I not supposed to notice it's been edited 4 times, and that's just in the first 2 minutes????
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #89
97. I watched the video... know whats missing?
The video is editted highlights of the leader interacting with the law enforcement. There is no footage of the protestors interacting with the rally. And it is the interaction with the rally that they were arrested for. There is no evidence here other than the leader was prepared for a legal fight and was looking to challenge the law.

The gay rally was a properly licensed event. Their protest of it was not. We have no evidence from this video what they were doing when the leader was not talking to the police representitives.

Secondly they were charged with the crimes. It is up to the courts to determine whether the charges are valid. The religious right is creating a deliberate situation with the advance noteriety of this situation such that if they are found guilty they will cry bloody murder.

This is simply an exploratory assault. Its a form of testing the waters to see what they can force and what their limits are. If they find out they can shut down an event by preaching loud enough they will simply up the numbers and use this case as a precident.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #52
91. nt
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 05:36 PM by Sterling
nt
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
51. They WERE Charged with misdemeanors
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 12:27 PM by LostinVA
The felony was the hate crime -- that is Pennsylvania law. Their physical actions were not felonies. The intention of their actions was the felony. And, I agree with it legally... if you have a hate crime law on the book, then this fits it. PA does.

If this was, say, a NAACP group meeting, and this Fundie group went and disrupted them and intimidated, then read Bible verses condoning slavery, it would be the same thing. The physical actions were misdemeanors, but the intent was a felony under PA law. IE, it was done against a specific class.

Alot of people disagree with hate crime legislation, but since PA has the law, it's a legitimate legal charge.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. Sounds like a bullshit law to me...
When thoughts and not actions become felony crimes thats complete bullshit.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #59
69. Did you read what I wrote?
It was the intent behind their actions that caused the hate crime charge, not what was in their fricking heads. They zeroed in on a gay organization's activity, not a Jaycees meeting. There is no difference than if this was an NAACP meeting and the Klan went there, reading aloud "scientific" studies that proved the inferiority of blacks, and then backed it up with some very aggressive physical demonstrations. You wouldn't have to be a mind reader to know their INTENT and PURPOSE was to target blacks. Just like here the target was gays. Also, they are quite proud of this intent on their website. Nothing hidden.

My opinion is that hate crime legislation is a good thing. You certainly have a right to disagree, but I read the PA law on line, and it's definitely not Orwellian.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #69
85. so if you target someone thats a hate crime?
So would it be a hate crime when we target republicans? :eyes:

Even if we dont commit any other crimes other than targeting them?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. I can see you didn't read what I wrote. Tsk Tsk Tsk
And, I've also noticed on DU that the posters that use the eye-rolling icon are usually the ones who are only being contrarian.

And yes, that would be a hate crime in some states if you did the same thing to some Repubs as these Repubs did to the gay pride group. Political affiliation isn't usually a protected class, but creed is. But hey! Don't trust me, let's look at some other sources:

1.) American Heritage Dictionary:

Hate Crime A crime motivated by prejudice against a social group: "murders were hate crimes targeting victims by gender" (Jane Caputi and Diana E.H. Russell).

2.http://www.acjnet.org/youthfaq/define.html :

What makes a hate crime different from any other crime?
Most crimes involve a certain amount of hate and anger, but hate crimes are special. They cause two sorts of harm: they cause emotional damage to members of the target group. Secondly, they can create serious discord between various cultural groups in society. Thus, they attack the basic bonds that bind our culturally diverse society together. The Criminal Code specifically defines hate crimes. They involve hate against people because of their colour, race, religion or ethnic origin. In these kinds of crimes, the act of spreading hate is against the law. (05.21.98)

3.) The PA Law:

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/BI/BT/2001/0/HB149...

4.) Findlaw.com:

a crime that violates the victim's civil rights and that is motivated by hostility to the victim's race, religion, creed, national origin, sexual orientation, or gender

See? Motivated, targeted, targets, etc. The intent and the action have to connect. But, you knew that already.



:eyes:
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #87
96. by one of your definitions...
the first one, crimes against republicans or democrats could be considered hate crimes and I dont think its any stretch to consider political parties social groups.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. It Could Be a Hate Crime
If a court finds a political group as a protected class, then it would be a hate crime in that jurisdiction. I personally think it's kinda stretching it to include it, but then I think of the Blacklist, and I think maybe it's not.

And, you seem to be missing the point on purpose AGAIN: These people in Philly legitimately broke the law. They targeted a specific group for malicious intent, and then ACTED on those intentions. Thus, it's a hate crime.

But, I think this thread has had it's time, so I'm off to greener pastures.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
25. Go to Snopes
She actually has a REALLY good entry on this, slamming the Fundies' tactics. The best thing is, she does it by using RW sources like O'Reilly, so Freepers reading it can't squawk too much. The woman who runs Snopes is conservative, but is generally very fair.

What these people did was conspiracy under the law. This was not a peaceful protest, this was a planned act of aggression, and videotape shows how aggressive they were. The felony was the hate crime, I believe, and that was because it specifically targeted a specific group out for MALICIOUS intent -- this wasn't a group of Xians reading the Beatitudes. Now, the morans are trying to spin they were attacked by the gay pride groups "pink angels" security group.

The cops have video of what the both the legal protestors and the disruptors did. In my experience, most cops don't tend to be too liberal or gay friendly, so their coming down heavily on the side of the gay group is telling.
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Sentath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. A Very good entry
and an almost dizzyingly balanced comment from O'Reilly.. :crazy:
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Democrats_win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
38. Protest the government or Religion, not THE people!
Why protest people who are gay? The xstians live under that fallacy that gays can harm them while the government and religion harms Americans and Humans in general every day.

BTW, great post.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
47. The same laws have and will be used against us....
...removing ourselves from this specific case, the laws that are being used are heavy-handed and are used often to suppress the right to protest. As distasteful as it is, I have to side with the protesters (on some of the charges).
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pschoeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
27. Hypocritcal Religous Right
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 08:45 AM by pschoeb
All the Right Wing Christian news orgs are out on this one. Despite the fact that these same groups were upset in 2002 when felony charges were dropped against the Gay Christian group SoulFource, when they protested at the Southern Baptists Convention in St. Louis. They clearly thought that felony charges(and the same ethnic intimidation charge) were appropriate for that case, and SoulForce didn't fail to disperse when police arrived, nor were they saying anything derogatory or attempting to roil someone into a fight.

Also, I don't remeber any of these news orgs running story's about the people held on felony charges after the 2000 RNC protest in Philadelphia, these persons were aquitted in 2004. They were held on 1/2 million to million dollar bails initially as well, though later reduced to 150,000.

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=14586

The light penalty sets a dangerous precedent for freedom of religion, said Tim Wilkins, a former homosexual and founder of Cross Ministry, which helps the church reach homosexuals with the gospel.

"It's nothing but a slap on the hand that does nothing to dissuade future disruptions," Wilkins, of Raleigh, N.C., told The Pathway, newsjournal of the Missouri Baptist Convention. "It does not protect Southern Baptists' right to assemble and worship without disruption from people who might disagree with them."
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
29. Uhhh..."Religious Persecution???"
What about gay persecution, fuckers? I mean, even if you "believe that homosexuality is a choice," isn't believing in a schizophrenic Mammon Leviticus God a choice, too? Great, I'm going to go obstruct services at a church, and they can defend my right. They can also defend the "piss Christ" artwork.

Fuck them. Poor babies.
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renaissanceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
55. I'm getting sick of being PC for them.
They don't want us to have ANY rights, so why should we protect theirs?

Let them rot in jail.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.15841622
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
32. Consider the source--Washington Times
Consider the other sources--rightwing websites.

If one of them told me that the sky was blue, I'd check to make sure it hadn't changed lately.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. That's Worth Repeating... "Consider the source--Washington Times"
LOL @ your blue-sky comment... that's true!

-- Allen
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Yup ... "Consider the source--Washington Times""
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joefree1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
49. Faux News Alert: Moonie Times!
Yeap, did a Google News search on this story and it's all over the "Conservative Media." Can't find it anywhere on the "mainstream" media.

This type of protest the protester technique is a new trend with the right. Protest Warriors use it a lot when they try to disrupt the larger protest of the left with their small numbers. Let 'em get a taste of happens when they go up against "the man." The PWs are always amazed when the police stop them.

Warning, reading anything from Washington "Moonie" Times may be hazardous to your intellectual well being. Moonie Times is owned by the cult leader Sun Myung Moon.

"Some people may oppose me, but they will go down the drain after a while and end up in hell. I came with the teaching that the world and religions should become one Soon, the American president will have to visit me to seek advice."

* Sun Myung Moon, December 10, 2000, East Garden, New York source: http://www.unification.net/news/2000/news20001210.html

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Massachusetts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
34. Praise Gee Sus
Give me some of that old time religion, lets whip up some anger and dissension, thats what I'm talkin about...Praise Gee Sus

PHONIES! :evilgrin: O8) :evilfrown:
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artr2 Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
35. I hope they get prison time
then they could be shown what its like to be homosexual by tossing salads & gang rape in the showers LOL
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
72. They Won't
A few months' probation, maybe a fine. That's it. The 47 years was the MAX all 11 of them could get. Most of the charges have been dropped. I think only four of them are still going to trial.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
39. I thought these charges were dismissed
they're claiming religious persecution

I'm claiming bullshit
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. They are setting things up for a legal challenge..
but I don't think they are going to get a good one here.

Maybe you guys are right - this hype just keeps the donations flowing.

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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
46. The left has been treated this way..
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 11:57 AM by sendero
.... for years, I don't remember the right coming to our aid.

Personally, I don't like laws against peaceful, non-violent and non-destructive protest. But that's just me.

Police use vague complaints such as "failure to disperse" which frankly, who made them the gods of dispersal.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
53. Typical
These people use these type of tactics and cry "foul," when they are prosecuted. Notice, they are being prosecuted not persecuted! They don't care about freedom of expression, unless it is THEIR freedom of expression. If a gay group protested one of the many prayer groups that take place in public parks, they would FREAK OUT! We CANNOT allow these bigots to continue to use the Bible is such an obscene way. They are dangerous and hate-filled!

They decided to 'judge,' now it is there turn to be 'judged!'
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Also Worth Repeating: "PROsecuted not PERsecuted"
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
64. Who says they are Christians?
I guess they could be considered Christian fanatics with no sense of reality or Christ's teachings.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #65
79. Erika's Right
They aren't Christians. By its very definition, being Christian is striving as hard as you can to emulate Jesus of Nazareth. No matter what your thoughts are on religion, everyone can agree that he was a wonderful man, incredibly open and loving to everyone -- the prostitute, the tax collector, the rednecks... everyone. That's what was so great about his teachings -- he loved everyone, said nothing bad about ANYONE -- except for hypocrites that hid behind their religion!

You want me to quote proper sources? Trav, if you need me to tell you THAT about Jesus' teachings, I think you better go back and read the gospels again. They are Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John. And they talk about Jesus and his teachings and works. Take a gander at the Beatitudes. Some good stuff there.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #65
84. Christ's Golden Rule Says What?
and these people do what?
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