Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Nuclear sub runs aground in Pacific

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:51 AM
Original message
Nuclear sub runs aground in Pacific
CNN) -- U.S. Coast Guard and military aircraft Saturday are en route to the western Pacific, where a nuclear attack submarine ran aground, wounding several crew members -- including at least one critically -- according to the U.S. Pacific Fleet.

The USS San Francisco ran aground some 350 miles south of Guam -- the nearest land mass -- while it was conducting submerged operations. It has since resurfaced and is heading back to Guam, according to the USPF's news release.

"At this point there does not seem to be damage to the (nuclear) reactor," Lt. j.g. Adam Clampitt told CNN, from his base in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.

The accident happened Saturday at noon, Guam time (Friday 9 p.m. ET, 4 p.m. Hawaii time).

...
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/01/08/nuclear.submarine/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. A naval Captain is going to be looking for a new job.
Maybe Exxon is hiring.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. Uh oh... this sounds serious...
I wonder which Bush donor was driving this time???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. at least there won't be a question about who'll pick up the bill.
Won't be the driver.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
3. There go five to ten careers
They'll have a full investigation, after which the following careers will be over:

Definitely over

Captain
XO
Navigator
Officer of the Deck
COB (enlisted)

probably over

training officer
helmsman
quartermaster in charge of charts
combat systems officer
communications officer
operations officer

They'll lose at least half the officer corps on the boat, and at least 3 or 4 senior enlisted. Could be a maintenance issue, a navigational issue, all sorts of stuff.

But the officers who aren't court-martialed will likely have negative entries in their records, and that means the end of the career.

The injuries mean the torpedo room was likely damaged. Here's hoping the sailors recover.

This post was written with the able assistance of Chief Haele, my wife, USN-Retired.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. FUBAR
Considering the type of injuries (head injuries), this could only have happened if they were maneuvering at high speed in an area without the assured depth to permit it. It's really inconceivable. While I doubt the helmsman can be held responsible, I'd be in favor of some brig time for the command. This is beyond mere incompetence - it's criminal negligence, imho.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. If the Navy can't certify that the hull is 100% ...
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 11:08 AM by Danmack
intact ( no stress factures or such) they'll decommision it. A stress facture at 100 feet is not a problem. A stress facture and Test depth could spell doom.

Thats why someone is in a whole lot of trouble.

The sub I was on hit bottom going flank in around 200' of water doing EM Log calibration. This entails going back and forth over the same route over and over to make sure the speed gages are accurate. Control room is rigged for red because at the end of each run you have to go to PD and take some bearings. The QM (quartermaster) has to chart the subs position on a map so when you are going to go back and forth over the same spot they usually put tracing paper over the chart, so they don't have so much to clean.

In my case the QM plotted a course right over an undersea mountain and because the control room was rigged for red and the tracing paper was on the chart he didn't see it. The sub glance off the side of the hill, stove the MBT vents on the bottom in about 2'.

The navy couldn't determine there were no stress fractures anywhere so they had to decom it about 15 years ahead of schedule.

Needles to say a lot of people were quite PO'd about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
56. Danmack -- what sub were you on?
Just curious as to what sub you were on. It wasn't the Baton Rouge, was it??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #56
74. No, the BR was an SSN, mine was a SSBN out of Holy Lok ...
and this grounding didn't make the front page anywhere. I'm a little apprehensive about giving out the hull # with the current pricks in charge. Who knows they'd probably charge me with being a traitor over something that happened 20 years ago.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. Danmack, what did you do in the Navy? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. I was a Sonarman..Got out a STS1 (SS). Best job on the boat..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
36. Thank heavens for you, TahitiNut!
You put it all so well, there really is no need for further discussion.

Heads need to roll all the way to the top.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. Yup .... and as it should be (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. Since I was on a sub that hit the bottom in the Irish sea...
I can tell for a fact the CO is gone. And the navigator and nav petty officer on watch. The OOD is probably history also. If the XO is on someones shit list he might get caught up in it too.

But that is about all.

Pretty stupid thing to do and avoidable.

Someone was fuking off
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
20. I know you are partly right.
It will happen. I just don't know which ranks. And besides that, we have to pay for sub repairs. :thumbsdown:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
28. I'm not so sure, there's a hell of a lot more focus on retention
these dayy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Not for the fuk ups that did this. The navy...
will make the individuals involved an example for the rest of the fleet. Kinda keeps stupid shit like this happening too often.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
55. Navy careers ruined
I was stationed on an aircraft carrier -- the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower. Coming back from a mediterannean deployment, we ran into another ship that was anchored in the harbor. The currents were strong that day and whoever was doing the "driving" didn't account for that. The ship we ran into opened the side of our ship like a can opener causing about three million dollars in damage.

Our CO wasn't on the bridge when it happened, but he was gone the next day. We never saw him again.

It is too bad we don't hold our Commander in Chief to the same level of responsibility.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
4. Excuse me? Isn't this akin to getting a Stealth caught in a tree?
Grounding a nuclear sub? :wtf:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Thats funny, HaHaHaHa! LOL n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Massachusetts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Great comment!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. Sort of
A sub is still a big boat. It's different from an airplane in that a sub can be grounded and a stealth would shred a tree.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. See CNN is left wing. They put it in paper
Can we blame this on Clinton?Maybe the Gods do not like people who ride around on things called SF. Isn't that one of the Blur State cities?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. It has to be Clinton's fault...
It always is!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Clinton got a humm job! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
46. That darn B.J.
The root of all evil in this world, I tell you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
59. I know! If not for that Lewinsky...
Bill would have been paying attention and 911 would never have happened! Oh, that was on * watch, wasn't it? Nevermind!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Well who was under * 's desk?
Something distracted him!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Maybe it was Lewinsky! Oh, wait. He was reading a goat book...
Maybe it was a goat under his desk!

(No goats were harmed in the production of this post.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Nah...Monica wouldn't waste her talents on that dork. n/t :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. ROFL! Nope, probably not.
After all, he's a lightweight compared to her. She has a sex act named after her! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
8. If there really is damage to the reactor
would they tell us? I think not! :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. The RC is just about the hardest thing to crack of anything..
in the world. Its actually a containment compartment that could stand up to a melt down of the core. The sea water would keep the outer hull from melting and the melted core would not melt through.

3" HY-80 stell is some pretty tuff shit.

Gotta remember the sub probably hit bottom near the front of the ship.

RC (reactor compartment) is safe
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
34. Yup. The boat and hull is to the reactor compartment ...
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 12:00 PM by TahitiNut
... as the chassis of an automobile is to an engine block. Those babies are removed intact when 'refueling' ... and the "USS Whatever" is barged up the Columbia River to Hanford as radioactive waste. The sub is then retrofitted with a new RC and recommissioned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Deb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
10. This sub ended a 2 month deployment in Dec.
How does it work on subs? 30 days seems like a very short break for submarine work.

"December 10, 2004

USS San Francisco returns from deployment
By Kelly Nicholas
Pacific Navigator Staff

Family members of the crew of USS San Francisco got the chance to welcome loved ones as the submarine returned home Dec. 1 after a two-month deployment.

It was the crew's first operational deployment since the boat's arrival on Guam in December 2002. Capt. Brad Gehrke, commanding officer for Commander, Submarine Squadron 15, was pleased with their performance."

http://www.guampdn.com/guampublishing/navigator/data/EE...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. Some hot running SSN's are away from home port over 300 days..
a year.

Really suks for the crew and family
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. Generally the subs have two full crews
One is stationed on the sub -- and the other one is undergoing training and retraining.

The sub can be out for nearly a year -- but with two crews -- generally they aren't out longer than 6 months at a time.

This applies to the Trident fleet -- but I am told that the fast attack sub fleet has similar 2 full crews per sub. UNLESS the Navy is having staffing problems just like the rest of the branches of the military.

I'm a Navy brat -- when 6 month deployments were standard. Pappy bush changed that -- and his son shares his father's contempt for military families.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Well thats news to me and I rode em for 8-1/2 years..
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 12:02 PM by Danmack
In 1978 the USS limpscomb (sp) pulled next to my boat the day before xmas. I was standing topside watch and got talking to there TS watch and he said they were away from home port over 330 days in 1978.

The Lipscomb was a special projects boat that had a special propulsion system in it so it was always out. But away from home port for 300 days I believe is quite common.

Anyway if SSN's now have 2 crews (which I don't really think is true) it would be a great thing. I rode boomers (SSBN) and yes we had 2 crews
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Trident subs do --
I believe they are referred to as the Gold crew and Blue? crew -- I could be wrong about the second color. I know for sure that the Trident subs do have 2 crews.

When I asked about other classes of subs -- the answer was yes -- in order to keep these highly trained crew members the Navy opted for 2 full crews. Families would be screaming bloody hell if fathers were deployed for 300 days and only home for 30 days a year. Pappy bush assorted wars caused a whole lot of early retirements. I live near one of the sub bases -- and know of several early retirements due to over extended military from that bush era. I also know a sub commander (fast attack sub) -- but he won't be back to his sailboat until this coming summer. I have some new questions for him!

The cost of training for each crew member is expensive -- the training facilities are extremely expensive to maintain. Plus each crew need to be brought up to date when modifications are done to the subs -- and it is easier to teach this at a training facility -- where all matter of on-board crisis can be simulated.

My knowledge of the Trident subs is more accurate than the other subs -- but when I have a chance I question people who are associated with the other sub classes.

Remember 1978 were were still in the "Cold War" and the sub service was vital to that effort -- but by the 1990s we were in an era of the Professional Military and the Navy was attempting to make the Navy more family friendly.









Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. NO, SSN's do NOT have TWO full crews....
...I don' care what you heard.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. here's some information about SSN and SSBN
The SSBN (Trident subs with nuclear warheads) are undergoing changes -- since the prime mission of the Trident is supposed to be over.



2) What do SSN and SSBN stand for?

Technically, "SSN" stands for submersible ship (nuclear). Now it is commonly referred to as "submarine (nuclear propulsion)", and this is the designator for fast attack (Los Angeles-class) submarines.

Similarly, "SSBN" is submersible ship (ballistic nuclear), otherwise referred to as "ballistic missile submarine (nuclear propulsion)". This class can also be called by other nicknames- Tridents or Ohio-class (based at Kings Bay, Georgia and Bangor, WA), boomers or fleet ballistic missile submarines.

3) What is the difference between a Fast Attack and Trident submarine?

The most noticeable difference is size. The Fast Attack subs are about 360ft long, with a beam (width) of about 33 ft. Trident submarines are about 560 ft long (length of two football fields!), with a beam of about 42 ft. Along with this, a Fast Attack generally has a crew of about 130 men, doing one long deployment of several months about once a year as well as many
short away times of one to three weeks a month. Tridents have two crews of about 160 men that rotate through deployments (called patrols) of about 100 days apiece, with each crew being at sea about twice a year.

Both classes still depend on secrecy and silence for operations. A Trident's main mission is carry the Trident class missiles as a deterrent, all the while hiding from the enemy. The Fast Attacks may carry Tomahawk or Harpoon missiles, with their mission being to find and track enemy subs.


http://www.submarinewivesclub.org/generalfaqs.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. Correct -- SSN don't have two full crews
but they also do not deploy for 300 days straight -- they have one long deployment and several shorter deployments. There are a hell of a lot of the SSN subs and these bastards were lobbing missiles in 2003 at Iraq. It seems that any branch of the military with new toys that go boom used Iraq as a testing ground.

But Tridents do have two full crews -- however -- rumor has it that Tridents will be either retired or modified. My question is -- will the Tridents be out fitted with the new mini nukes that bushie wants so that he can nuke any nation that doesn't bow down to him? I asked some Trident sailors this question -- they started stuttering.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Deb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Amazing to me, we toured a sub once
It's hard to imagine what life must be like, it takes a special kind of person to do that work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. It takes a special kinda lunatic you should say...
In my case, we went under for 70-75 days, nuc missiles primed and pointed (back before the wall was down) and went around in circles at around 5mph. I did 8 of those patrols.

I used to blame the navy for me becoming a lunatic until I remembered that I volunteered for sub duty, so I had to be a little whacked out before even stepping a foot on one :freak:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yinkaafrica Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Do people have claustraphobic panic attacks during that time?
That could be like living in hell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. In all my time only one person went wacko..
an officer who just couldn't cut it, heard voices that weren't there and thought everybody was against him. Tried to kill himself by drinking some chemicals in the ELT lab (lab where they test the reactor core for decay and other such stuff).

Was such a dumb shit he picked the wrong stuff and only got sick. Needless to the Doc kept him in LaLa land until we could medevac him. Probably still in the funny farm....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yinkaafrica Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. I am guessing it is not easy to get assigned active sub duty
I would never cut it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
61. Shit, we had two medivaced out of our site in Alaska for cabin fever...
...one several years before had suicided.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
57. Fast attack subs...
My roommate from prototype (navy school) was on a fast attack that was always at sea. I think he told me that in twelve months, they spent nine months away from home port.

I was a sub volunteer all the way through my training, but ended up on a carrier. Not as prestigious as a sub, but we got mail almost everyday and saw a lot more ports!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
12. They hit BOTTOM?
"The USS San Francisco ran aground some 350 miles south of Guam -- the nearest land mass -- while it was conducting submerged operations. It has since resurfaced and is heading back to Guam, according to the USPF's news release."

Sounds like they went too deep in relatively shallow waters...
OK, who was supposed to watch the Fathometer?

Hope the injured recover.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Massachusetts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
16. The little Mario character on
the depth scope must be broken. :wtf:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
17. BBC coverage:
US nuclear submarine runs aground

"The extent of the injuries and damage aboard San Francisco is still being assessed, but includes one critical injury and several other lesser injuries," the Navy said. .............

Guam, a territory of the US, is one of the American military's most important bases in the Pacific.

The Los Angeles-class submarines are 109.73 meters (360 ft) long and are classed as attack vessels, designed to counter enemy submarines or surface vessels. They are equipped with a single nuclear reactor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4157517.stm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. Letting Bush bribers drive again?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. ,like the Greeneville>Ehime Maru?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ahimsa Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
24. Maybe they were depending on charts...
...that are no longer valid due to the tsunami?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Roy Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. The recent earthquake
caused some pretty drastic changes in the ocean floor in the Straight of Sundai. Some areas that used to be 4,000 feet deep are now barely 100 feet deep, and the USGS is hurrying to re-survey the area. Something similar might have happened off of Guam. They have some pretty big subduction zones over there.

I don't know anything about submarine navigation, but I suspect the Navy has pretty detailed sea-floor information, and I would be surprised if our subs didn't have that info on-board in some kind of navigational computer system. What happens if the ocean floor changes suddenly and the info stored in the computer no longer agrees with reality? Did the software guys who wrote the navigational system take that possibility into account? Things could get pretty hairy.

No idea what really happened, but interesting to speculate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. It seems to me that the seafloor . . .
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 11:53 AM by msmcghee
. . rising by 3900 ft in an earthquake would generate a much bigger wave than the 30 ft or so we saw on shore.

Do you have a link to this data so I can understand it better?

Thanks
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Roy Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. I agree
that the ~4000 foot vertical displacement seems outrageous. But if a 4000 foot deep channel leads through a 100 foot shallow area and the entire region shifts horizontally, then "the same area" as defined by a GPS system could have been in the channel before the earthquake and out of the channel afterwards.

Sorry about the "missing link". I tried to find it before, and couldn't. Here's a link to another article that has the same info:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2002142582_strait...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
<...snip...>
The agency has received an unconfirmed report that one area of the Strait of Malacca, which separates Malaysia and the devastated Indonesian island of Sumatra, had its depth cut from 4,060 feet to just 105 feet.

In another area of tsunami-affected waters, a merchant marine ship has logged that the depth was cut from 3,855 feet to just 92 feet.

The agency's chief hydrographer, Chris Andreasen, said experts may find that whole channels were moved by the earthquake that preceded the tsunami, shifting the ocean floor many feet.

"When the plate moves, everything on it moves," Andreasen said. "There could be some pretty serious shifts."

<...snip...>
Among other international operations, the Navy is sending two ships to begin efforts to rechart the waters.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. Thanks Uncle Roy n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
66. Did they mention which ones?
I spent 2 years on a survey ship (USNS Hess) when I was in the Canoe Club.

Then spent some time on The John Adams SSBN 620

-Hoot
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ahimsa Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #32
72. Possibly crevices being filled in...
by debris pulled out to sea from inland after the tsunami? Like when you dig a hole in the sand at the beach and a wave comes in over it and retreats, leaving no hole behind. I'm not sure if that applies in this case, but that probably another factor in the changing seascape too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
haele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
51. You bring up a point there -
The article indicates that they were in the middle of a series of operational tests; some of those tests probably require the crew to react to equipment failure.

If the sub was in the midst of a test where, say, the fathometer or half the navigational system, is "CASREP'd", and everyone thought they were in waters of a depth of 1K ft or so - and now, suddenly, the ocean floor is is at 500 ft?

It won't "excuse" the CO or navigator, or any other member of the crew that was on duty at the time, but it would explain why they went aground.

I feel sorry for the guys that are forced to bunk up forward in the torpedo room. They must have gotten tossed around pretty badly when she ran aground - and with all that heavy equipment around, it's almost worse than getting tossed out of a rack in a normal berthing compartment.

Haele
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
27. Interesting they used the word "wounding" instead of injuring
that came from DOD

Wounding means something different in military speak than injuring.

I suspect a weapons malfunction or reactor problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
haele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
60. Wounding would mean that something struck them.
When a sub strikes something, from what I understand having done equipment installations on one, it's rather like being inside a washing machine and everything must be secured accordingly. As the sub is built to move in three dimensions - unlike a surface ship - the "rollover" plane is not as strict, and people can be thrown "up" or sideways in a way one does not normally see. If you are thrown "up" out of your rack and hit the sharp cableway and piping above you, that would cause a different injury that you would get on a surface ship being tossed "down" or down and sideways from your rack. You might break an arm or leg when you hit the deck on a surface ship. You have a chance to "catch yourself" and won't fall so far. I've fallen out of my rack - a "top rack" before when my ship did "backing down" exercises or in high seas and received nothing more than bruises and a slightly wrenched shoulder. The injuries tend be more of a stress or soft tissue damage.
On a submarine, you can easily crack open your skull as if you were hit with an axe if you were thrown "up" out of your rack and hit the cableway or pipe hangers. If you're sleeping in the torpedo room racks (one division sleeps right under the torpedo stowage cradles - that shocked the hell out of me when we did a LAN install on a LA class a few years back) and the maintenance tools aren't secured properly above you, you can get hit by all sorts of flying items.
Submarines are also very tight spaces; again, there's enough sharp corners and edges on otherwise "common" items that normally wouldn't be a major problem - if you have room to catch yourself before you fall on them or if they're secured properly.

Wounding would probably be the type of injury one would get when a submarine runs aground - as opposed to the standard military definition of simple "injury".

Haele
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. No, wounding means wounded, as in enemy action
in military speak.

Injured means anything else.

It is a very strange choice of words for such a press release.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
39. Any civilians on board?
Was Kenny boy at the helm?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
41.  Makes like a whale & beach itself, much like the lemming-like voters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Not_Giving_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
44. My heart stopped when I saw this
My brother is deployed on a sub right now. We of course, don't know where he is, just where he was the last time we heard from him. I was so relieved to see that it wasn't his sub.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peterh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
47. On another board I found myself in this morning.
They were taking a real different angle on this story and one that I suppose could be plausiblethe idea that this sub and maybe a new Chinese sub may have exchanged paint and the grounding is just a coverup.its not like the US and Russia never exchanged paint.the US may have decided to test the Chinese in the art of cat and mouse.but I guess well never know unless something leaks out of China.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Why report this then?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peterh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Because
When a nuclear sub surfaces and heads back to port under abnormal conditions, something has to be put out on why.otherwise the rumor mill goes ballistic and you leave the speculators with a tad more room to hang a hat on than you might wish.
Im not saying that grounding wasnt the cause in this case, its just that as an OT in the Navy back in the early 70s I did witness some gaming in the waters

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. I'll tell you why *I* appreciate him reporting this
since it sounds to me like you object for some (IMO stupid) reason.

Such a report, even tho completely speculative and even discounted by the poster himself in this instance, nevertheless helps the rest of us who are not very familiar with such things understand the bigger picture and the broader scope that may on occasion be involved in such incidents. That way, the next time *I* hear of something unusual happening with a sub, I might understand that there's a possibility that there's more to the situation than is being officially reported (as is so often the case anyway) and something about what else could be going on.

Doesn't mean it happened that way, doesn't mean it WILL happen that way. But it DOES expand our ability to think critically and even creatively about world events and especially about our ultra-secretive, lying government.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Roy Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. I agree.
ALL of the posts on this thread are speculative, if not downright silly. peterh's post has more substance than most.

We KNOW that subs play cat and mouse. And we know that governments never fess up about it. I'm not sure why this is, exactly, since each side knows the other is doing it. The activity might technically be construed as an act of war, especially if something goes wrong and one sub gets seriously damaged or sunk. Maybe the governments fear things could get out of hand politically if they told the truth. Pressure to retaliate, loss of face otherwise, embarrassing comments... the whole thing has an adolescent male hot rodder feel to it.

Again, we don't know if that's what happened here, but it's fun to speculate, and sometimes informative, too; and if speculative posts disappeared from DU, there wouldn't be a whole lot left...

R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. A secretive government leaves us with only a choice to speculate,...
,...and make conclusions on an aggressive campaign to collect facts.

THAT reality makes our government the "bad guys" and the rest of us the "good guys", particularly those of us who DO embrace freedom and democracy.

Doncha' think? :bounce:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kurtyboy Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
75. My very first thoughts as well---
This news story sounds so much like a cover story its silly--

I guess it's possible for a skipper to have found the ground in some of the deepest water on Earth---but I'd be more willing to bet on another cause for the incident.

The US has a long history of not talking facts when it comes to the silent service. Even incidents that happened 50 years ago are just now seeing the light of day as old-timers, no longer concerned about clearances, share their experiences.

Check out Blind Man's Bluff or Rising Tide: The Untold Story of the Russian Submarines That Fought the Cold War for some fascinating stories about this...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
69. I read it was twenty people injured...
Here's the link, but it's in Portuguese...
http://br.news.yahoo.com/050108/6/qnca.html
It's a few more than "several" unfortunately, or at least in my opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheEconomist Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
71. "Nuculear... its pronounced 'Nuculear'"
Sorry, couldnt resist the chance to quote Homer Simpson...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
73. Holy SHIT!!!!
There's an unexpected job opening for someone on the prospective commanding officer list....XO too. And anyone on the bridge at the time of the incident is pretty close to toast.

Surface ops to Guam...NOT FUN. I'd not want to be aboard that vessel in these circumstances...!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
78. Crewman Dies Aboard U.S. Submarine That Ran Aground..
This so fookin sad. I had some close calls and they were all human errors of judgement.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticN...

Sure would like to hear from any westpac'rs out there concerning op areas south of Guam.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. Another news link on the dead sailor
http://www.indiadaily.com/breaking_news/20241.asp

A U.S. sailor died Sunday, after sustaining injuries in a submarine accident a day earlier in the western Pacific, according to a statement from the U.S. Pacific Fleet. The sailor -- whose identity has not been released -- was one of 24 wounded when the nuclear-powered fast-attack submarine USS San Francisco ran aground about 350 miles (560 km) south of Guam -- the nearest island -- while it was submerged, the Navy said. Navy sources said the submarine was en route to Brisbane, Australia, for a port visit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BadGimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
79. I have a theory...
Subs don't "run aground". They drop to the bottom.

350 miles from Guam there is little chance (imho) that they got into shallow waters. Chances are they had some serious problems and bottomed. Bottoming a sub is like really a bad thing. Subs the bottom are more likely to stay there.

I hope they did not bottom out, but my intuition tells me this story will get worse before it's over.

I have no particular information or insight btw.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Hit the lip of the Marianas trench, maybe....? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danmack Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. Not a chance..
If you want better info on how deep a sub can go, go to Janes Fighting Ships. I can say subs can go in excess of 400' (if I said more I'd have to kill ya :) ) . But no way do they go deep enough to hit the lip of the MT.

I don't have op exp in the westpac but I think they either hit another sub or they hit the bottom. If they had hit a surface ship we would also have a story of a sunk ship I think.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. looks like
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 04:49 PM by lazarus
they could have hit the Kyushu-Palau Ridge, which is in that area.

Of course, they could have hit Megaladon. ;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Dec 21st 2014, 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC