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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:35 AM
Original message
Warning From a Student of Democracy's Collapse

Warning From a Student of Democracy's Collapse
By CHRIS HEDGES

Published: January 6, 2005


Correction Appended

PRINCETON, N.J.

FRITZ STERN, a refugee from Hitler's Germany and a leading scholar of European history, startled several of his listeners when he warned in a speech about the danger posed in this country by the rise of the Christian right. In his address in November, just after he received a prize presented by the German foreign minister, he told his audience that Hitler saw himself as "the instrument of providence" and fused his "racial dogma with a Germanic Christianity."

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"Some people recognized the moral perils of mixing religion and politics," he said of prewar Germany, "but many more were seduced by it. It was the pseudo-religious transfiguration of politics that largely ensured his success, notably in Protestant areas."

Dr. Stern's speech, given during a ceremony at which he got the prize from the Leo Baeck Institute, a center focused on German Jewish history, was certainly provocative. The fascism of Nazi Germany belongs to a world so horrendous it often seems to defy the possibility of repetition or analogy. But Dr. Stern, 78, the author of books like "The Politics of Cultural Despair: A Study in the Rise of the Germanic Ideology" and university professor emeritus at Columbia University, has devoted a lifetime to analyzing how the Nazi barbarity became possible. He stops short of calling the Christian right fascist but his decision to draw parallels, especially in the uses of propaganda, was controversial.

"When I saw the speech my eyes lit up," said John R. MacArthur, whose book "Second Front" examines wartime propaganda. "The comparison between the propagandistic manipulation and uses of Christianity, then and now, is hidden in plain sight. No one will talk about it. No one wants to look at it."



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/06/nyregion/06profile.ht...
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steve2470 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:46 AM
Original message
this is very scary indeed nt
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
17. Congressman Retreats on "Schindler"--Sort Of
Congressman Retreats on "Schindler"--Sort Of

by Jeff B. Copeland
Feb 26, 1997, 4:20 PM PT

Yesterday, Congressman Tom Coburn, a Republican from Oklahoma and an activist on the issue of TV-content ratings, denounced NBC for airing Schindler's List Sunday night. The broadcast, he said, took network television "to an all-time low, with full frontal nudity, violence and profanity being shown in our home."

Even though the network rated the show TV-M and introduced it with a taped appeal from director Steven Spielberg to keep children out of the room, Coburn still thought that NBC's action "should outrage parents and decent-minded individuals everywhere

THESE NEOCONS HAVE BEEN OUT TO DESTROY DEMOCRACY FOR SOME TIME BY PROMOTING A WIERD RIGHT WING JESUS

Who tells us to KILL THE RAG HEADS.
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Jawja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. The message that
Coburn is conveying is that the nudity, violence and profanity shown in "Schindler's List" is more important than the subject of the film.

Never mind that the film presents the conditions for Jews in Nazi Germany and one man's attempt to do the moral thing; the movie has naked people! "Decent-minded people" should be "outraged" by naked people and not the actions of Nazi Germany. :eyes:

How long does America continue to tolerate this bullshit from our "leaders?"

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DrZeeLit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. Are "decent minded people" outraged any more at any atrocities?
Certainly they don't want to see what this war has done to Iraqis. Another Holocaust? Aye, but the "decent minded" people (as opposed to the rest of us who are, what? "indecent minded") don't really believe there was a Holocaust, do they? Like Mel and his "Christian" cohort? They take to heart the "right" in the terms "Right Wing" and "Christian Right."

Every time one of these "decent minded" people start raving about television, it irks me. Television is not sacrosanct AND what ever happened to JUST TURN IT OFF (and go back to reading the Bible)?
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #32
52. Uh-oh...
According to your picture, the end is near!

Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, biblical?
Ray: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor... real Wrath-of-God-type stuff. Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies.
Venkman: Rivers and seas boiling!
Egon: 40 years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanos.
Winston:The dead rising from the grave!
Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats, living together... mass hysteria!


Sorry - I just thought of that scene when I spied your sig pic. :)
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DrZeeLit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. Excellent line. I never thought of it, but.... HOW TRUE! n/t
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #57
120. That picture is just hysterical. Are they yours?
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Harry S Truman Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. He's not from America...
...he's from Oklahoma
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hangemhigh Donating Member (587 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #37
121. LOL! But in Okla's defense......
I just returned from there for a holiday visit with friends and family, a visit I had been dreading and had posted about here at DU. Most of my family belongs to the freeper mindset in that, "kill all of the ragheads" sick mentality. Well here's the good news, folks-even the bible banging Okies are coming around. There are like minded folks everywhere and the numbers continue to grow.

In a conversation with my Dad about Christianity, I told him that I currently reject it. Instead of a lecture, I got a wizened and sad smile leading to a meaningful conversation about the hijacking of religion to advance political agendas by this government. There was agreement that just as "Christianity" had been hijacked, so had Islam. Although I was told that "God wants you to stop smoking," too, the change in his mindset was not lost on me.

In a tearful dinner conversation about the tsunami, I mentioned that there are likely an equal number of dead Iraqi civilians and that the world has turned a blind eye to it. I got no pushback.

My closest friend of 30 years, the one who literally exploded in laughter when I told her I was working on the Kerry campaign, now has a son in South Korea and is trying desperately to convince him NOT to volunteer to go to Iraq. All of a sudden this war is wrong to her.

Finally, a visit with other friends brought us all together. I had decided to leave things alone, but if the topic of the state of the world came up I would not relent. It did and I didn't. And the takeaway for all of us is that Americans in general, have sacrificed our capacity for critical thinking by looking to MSM for the truth and that something is horribly wrong with America. That's a lot for a group of what I have called wingnuts and worse.

All of this to say that I "get" the joke on Oklahoma, it's one reason I no longer live there and was reticent about my visit. It is simple to open the eyes of others with facts. Problem is, most are conditioned to regard the MSM as factual and the rest of us as "internet conspiracists." I drove this home when the various theories about the OKC bombing came up. Although I agree with them, as devil's advocate I simply said, "That can't be true, it hasn't been on the news." Game, set, match.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
96. The GOP MINDSET:
Titties will kill you, regardless of context. Even pictures of BREAST FEEDING are dangerous and evil.

Dead bodies, bomb blasts, and the violent aftermath of war are like flowers in spring--par for the course, get used to it. We like it on the Nightly News, especially if the bodies are those of our enemies.

Our leaders are cowed by a loud minority, and the majority is so goddamn OVER-tolerant that they take this bullshit from these assholes. If the easily offended can't bear to watch, to buy, to see, they can avoid all of these unwelcome sights by AVERTING THEIR EYES, changing the channel, not purchasing or subscribing....what EVER!

I'm quite tired of this GOP attitude that if THEY don't like it, NONE of us can like it. FUCK THEM!! They need to grow up, and take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their own consumption of consumer and media goods. I swear, that is actually a fucking REPUBLICAN argument, which says something about the circular nature of politics.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #17
38. "Weird right-wing Jesus"
saigon68 said:
"THESE NEOCONS HAVE BEEN OUT TO DESTROY DEMOCRACY FOR SOME TIME BY PROMOTING A WIERD RIGHT WING JESUS"


Yes, they have completely warped Jesus' message, & do not deserve to be called his followers.

Here is a link to a great op-ed cartoon on the republinazi version of Jesus: Supply-side Jesus.


"Prosperity is just around the corner." -- Herbert Hoover
"The economy has turned a corner." -- GW Bush

Herbert Hoover = GW Bush

Neither man cared about the Depression their economic policies created.


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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
61. LOL
scary, but true...
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
82. Where is the retreat?
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DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Amazing that the NYTimes would run this story.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I am surprised about the NYT running it too.
Maybe someone there has lost their packets of kool-aid?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. That's why they buried the story
in the Regional section.

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sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. It's in the regional section because
it's about a speech that was given in the region, Princeton, NJ. What section of the NYT do you think it belongs in?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. It has nothing to do with where the speech was given
it has to do with the subject and what the speech discussed, which had nothing to do with NY or NJ. The Politics section or Opinion section would have been more appropriate. The NY Times does this sort of thing all the time. Then they can claim that they reported the story, while they bury the story in a place that most people who are interested in this sort of thing will never find it.



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sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I respectfully disagree
The reporter sent to cover the story was probably the regional reporter. That's how newspapers cover stories. They don't send the editorial staff out to cover a speech in Princeton, they send the reporter out from that region.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Chris Hedges
is a veteran war coorespondent, he is not just some regional reporter.

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sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Never the less, he's a reporter
and not from the editorial staff where opinion pieces come from. The New Jersey area is a NY region that is covered by the NYT, thus they have a solid staff of reporters there that do regional news.

It's a good, well written story and deserves praise.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. So if there was a nuclear bomb explosion in Trenton
it would be burried in the regional section?
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
45. And a best selling author as well
His latest book is War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning. I've seen him in interviews -- Chris Matthews, I think Charlie Rose, and probably C-Span -- and he is VERY compelling, very wise, very anti-war. I want to read this book and anything else he's written.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search/102-4...

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meppie-meppie not Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. this book addict thanks you muchly for the link! :-)
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 01:43 PM by meppie-meppie not
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potone Donating Member (359 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #45
75. Chris Hedges has also written a very moving and disturbing
article in the New York Review of Books, called "On War", in the Dec. 16, 2004 issue. It is a review of two books on the war in Iraq, but it more than that--he covers the psychology of the war and its devastation. He concludes that we are losing the war and losing our democracy in the process. Read it and weep.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #75
83. Chris Hedges probably knew that the only way the NYTimes would print
the story at all would be in the Regional Section, so he was willing to settle for that rather than not getting it printed at all.
He may have some ethics, it is the NYTimes that does not.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. You are 90% wrong, Sherlilocks
The 10% where you are perhaps correct is that this is a new thing. No beetle browed KGB men or polished SS standing behind them MAKING them do it.

Who knows, without observing it up close and in detail, what the peculiar mecanism of sea change, how the bullying intimidatio self-censorship and parasitization of the media has cococted itself in this new stew of Totalitarian gleichtschlaung (German for "bringing into line") to make these things happen?

But it is a sea change so profound and powerful that it is everywhere.

That's the 10%. The 90% wrong is that journalists look for (or did, back during the Height of the Old Republic post WWII-mid 1980s) a "newsworthy hook", a twist or condition that lends interest to the story.

During the days of the Old Republic, a venerated professor who's family escaped from Hitler's Germany warns he see the same thing here is such a newsworthy hook, big time!

After all, people may have compared Republicans to Nazis in the past (maybe some of it was because Poppy Augustus Bush had former Nazis on his 1988 campaign staff) but I don't ever recall, before 2001 anyone who lived in NAZI GERMANY EVER MAKING THAT COMMENT.

But now, a journalist looks for other things rather than a newsworthy hook and a good story.

A journalist looks over his shoulder in fear. As during McCarthyite Times, the road is littered with the smeared and wrecked enemies of Empire.

No, by the standards of the Old American Republic, such a frightening idea revealed by one who LIVED THEIR, phrased logically and with appropriate caveats (this guy is no nut), WOULD have been a story that would have been covered, especially since so many have made the comparison since 2001 both here and abroad.

But we do not live in the Old USA anymore. That place is gone.
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sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. The problem is that this speech was given
on November 14 in Germany, so it is not current news and does not belong on page one. I had assumed the Fritz Stern lived in Princeton, NJ, but, in fact, he lives in NYC and is a professor emeritus at Columbia.

The reporter, recognizing the value of the story, brought it to the surface in the best way that he could in the "Public Lives" section of the regional section. The article was well-written and did not seem to cater to any fear of a right-wing backlash.

I get weary of a constant barrage of complaints because some DUers don't like the NYT. Better to recognize the value of Chris Hedges' article and write to the NYT to let them know that you appreciate Hedges' efforts and that you would like to see more good reporting in a more timely fashion. Or write a LTTE or join in on the NYT on-line discussions. But all this bashing of a newspaper that I don't think half of the bashers read is counter-productive and will not bring back good old investative reporting which seems to have gone the way of the do-do bird.

Chris Hedges was not writing an investigative piece, but managed to resurrect a story that was almost lost to the readers. For that he deserves praise.




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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. That makes NO sense to me
Why are you sticking up for the NYT? They facilitated all the lies that took us to war. They barely apologized, and are STILL enabling the Bush regime, big time.

But all this bashing of a newspaper that I don't think half of the bashers read is counter-productive and will not bring back good old investative reporting which seems to have gone the way of the do-do bird.

Nor will YOUR suggestions (write LTEs, thank them for Hedges' article, join the on-line discussions) bring back investigative journalism either.

I simply do not understand why you think the NYT shouldn't be soundly and often for its ever-expanding servile laxity and dereliction of duty, a duty which happens to be Constitutional and whick happens to be absolutely essential to the survival of democracy itself: keeping the people well and accurately informed.

Makes no sense to me.

Unless, of course, you work for the NYT???? Maybe then that kind of emotionally-based (codependent) protectiveness would make some emotional sense. But I can't think of any other reason.
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sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. You are kidding, right?
With my writing skills, I couldn't write for the New York Post. I read the NYT and for the most part, I get a lot of good information. My brother-in-law's brother-in-law works for the NYT and is well known, but I've never met him. Does that make me a suspect NYT codependent?

There's lots of good stuff there.

For instance, go here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/07/opinion/07fri1.html?8...

or here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/08/opinion/l08gonzales.h...

or try this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/08/opinion/08laracy.html

Opening my mind to the ideas of others, including some of the RW columnists, helps me to form my own opinions. I find the NYT useful and informative. Codependent, that's a joke, right?

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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #49
62. No, I'm not kidding
And you did a wonderful job of attacking my post without addressing my question. At all. Perhaps that was purposeful.

If not, I will say this: if that's the best you can do with following a train of thought and its logic, then I suggest you be careful reading RW columnists. They can be pretty tricky and manipulative -- seductive, even -- in their faux reasoning and "logic" and I worry that you may not be able to sort that out very well.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #62
94. Nice GOP trick
Attacking a man's intelligence instead of what is actually in the post. That is a low, and irrelevant shot. Not to mention arrogant and condescending.
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sherilocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #62
112. Actually, I did respond
by posting some links to the NYT that you might agree with. I don't think that the NYT is perfect, far from it. They should have sent Judith Miller in the same direction as Jason Blair. But, I also get a lot of good information from the NYT.

I take my information from many sources, and I like to look at all sides of an issue. I can't respond directly to what you posted because DU rules prevent me from saying exactly what is on my mind.

I will relate this personal story, which may give you some insight into my thinking. During the McCarthy era my sister gave a valdictorian address at her high school. She stated something to the effect that in order to fight Communism, you have to know what it is. She went on further to say that education is the best tool in fighting Communism. There was an incredible uproar in the community. LTTE calling my sister a Communist. Numerous frightening anonymous calls to our home calling us commie bastards and other even worse epithats. In other words, when one is blind to one side or another of an issue, whether it is to the right or left, one is courting ignorance.

If you read the NYT on a regular basis, you will understand how they divy up their stories. The technology reporters look for stories on computerized voting, (I spoke to one about voting irregularities in Broward County in 1980, when even the ACLU disregarded my warnings about hanging chads) and it goes into the technology section. The political reporters report on politics and it goes into the political section. The editorial and opinion sections is completely separate from the various news reporting sections. This may appear to you to be an imperfect system, but it is still a newspaper worth reading.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #44
58. the problem is that too many are just whistling past the grave yard
we are about to pick the guy who AUTHORIZED TORTURE to be the HEAD of JUSTICE.

this needs to be on the FRONT PAGE at least every other day.

the NYT ranks about a 4 or 5 compared to the www and DU.

i will NEVER trust them again after what they have done the past 4 years cheer-leading the war, downplaying legitimate criticism and labeling everyone as KOOKS when we point out that not only does the emperor have NO CLOTHES but there IS a CONSPIRACY at the HIGHEST LEVELS of our GOV to perpetrate a fraud on the AMERICAN PEOPLE.

peace
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. Understand that the NYT and others have been CIA-influenced for decades.
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 05:05 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
And the corporate managers of the MSM have been reserving the above-the-fold headlines for Tributes to the Virtue Empire for decades.

I suspect that, just as in the CIA, there is leaking of stories that don't support the current regime and are meant to give a heads-up to those in the power elite who might be able to 'clean house' when needed.

Consider:
During the post-Thanksgiving annihilation of Fallujah, NPR ran a radio documentary on...THE WARSAW GHETTO UPRISING AGAINST THE NAZIS!
The program was called 'Red Runs the Vistula' and sounded exactly like what was happening in Fallujah at the same time.

Not very flattering to the neo-con-men's Operation Oil Occupation.

I suspect that this was stealth programming on the part of some producers at NPR who don't like being Nat'l Petroleum Radio.

"Hmmm...A message from inside the fortune cookie factory..."

Chris Hedges is the most respected war-time correspondent alive today and anything he writes is deadly important. His book 'War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning' is one of the most compelling things I've read in 45 years due to its exploration of the psychology of war which has defined our species for...well, ever. So far.

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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
132. Agreed. BushCo is a student of the Nazi regime:
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #44
105. Actually, the speech was given in the US. The German foreign minister
was in the US at the time and gave an introductory speech before Stern was given the prize.
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Beth in VT Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
67. They put a piece about voting machine problems in the technology section.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. page one
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MHalblaub Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
130. What the New York Times didn't mentioned
The prize was presented to Mr. Stern by Mr. Fischer, Federal Foreign Minister of Germany.
Germany is not so close to Princeton, NJ.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yes the NYT
has fed grist to the propaganda mill.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Yes. We should forward this to other media.
along with the 14 points of Fascism article, if someone has the link.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
69. The 14 Symptoms of Fascism. Here is the link.
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 05:18 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
http://empirewatch.org/pages/_archives/fascism/pages/14...
one edit-hmm. not working right now. gonna get another.

This one works:

http://surrealist.org/prayforpeace/fascismsymptoms.html
>snip<


1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
- Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
- Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
- The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military
- Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism
- The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media
- Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security
- Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
- Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected
- The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
- Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
- Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncomm on for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free __expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
- Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
- Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections
- Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #69
77. I printed, copied and distributed those "symptoms".
The reactions were varied and interesting.

Those who were self-initiated in keeping a tab on current events were not surprised but certainly concerned.

Those who were compassionate and/or oriented towards social justice were angry.

Those who were consumed with just making a life for themselves and their children rejected the possibility of their country evolving towards fascism. Period.

The highly religious (fundamentalist) wouldn't even read it.

The "professional politician" just laughed.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #69
85. We are already there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #85
113. yes 14 out of 14 not good
KL
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
4. finally in the main stream - nt
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. I hope more and more editors start to "get it", about what's going on here
This is a discussion the United States needs to have at this point in time. Are we going to follow the path of history into a fascist state, or are we going to choose Democracy?

Just asking the question will make people stop and think.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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jaime_176 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
6. This is important.
I just did a report on this subject for a class at school. (I'm a returning student). This so needs to be out in public and talked about, because the propaganda techniques are so obviously drawn from Goebbels, as well as other psychological studies on persuasion and fear appeals, etc. Today, was it that Congress admonished the administration about covert propaganda?? This is good. I'm excited that people are starting to stand up against the tactics of this administration!!!
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
7. All I can say is Thank GOD!
Someone gets it and sees it and is speaking up about it and the NYT is printing it! It's about damned time!

It may only be a trickle at this point, but I hope more and more people have the courage to speak up about this and in time there are torrents of such stories published--somewhere, somehow.

Thanks for this Liberty Belle! :hi:
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meppie-meppie not Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
54. my thoughts exactly! nt
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
98. You're welcome! See my new thread on fascism...
Started in the Political Discussions forum today. I suggest sending links to fascism info to leaders of synagogues, churches, and Jewish group to urge that they inform their congregations.

The links include warnings from conservative as well as liberal leaders.

I also listed links to lists of many churches and synagogues.

Please help!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. "No one will talk about it. No one wants to look at it."
Indeed. We have a regime that knows no restraint in the extremism of their attacks and their policies to enrich the wealthy ... but the 'left' is obsessed with being polite. Heaven forbid some rabid reichbot be offended. :eyes:
:puke:
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Prodemsouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
24. Amen!!- (a little religious right lingo) I hate being a part of the left-
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 09:03 AM by Prodemsouth
because of this nicey -nice behavior. And it is not just Democratic politicans, like Daschel and KERRY!( So what if he was greated well by the troops in Iraq "we love you Kerry for laying down for our glourious leader and being a good Defeatist elitist") your right: PUKE! Double :puke:
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
47. Have you seen this article?
I think it's the best psychological profile of Bush I've seen -- IMO very important reading:

THE MADNESS OF GEORGE W. BUSH: A REFLECTION OF OUR COLLECTIVE PSYCHOSIS
by Paul Levy
http://www.awakeninthedream.com/georgew.html

I think someone posted it in the Editorials forum (shoulda remembered who, but it's probably still over there).
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Yup. It echoes the 'malignant narcissist' diagnosis we at DU found.
I don't know how anything could be more obvious, quite frankly. I never expected to live within such an extreme example of "The Emperor's New Clothes." How can anyone not see this psycho-pathology? Hell, I'm sure not the most nut-free fruitcake on the planet and it's obvious to me.

My long-lasting respect for the DU community was anchored two years ago when we discussed Smirk's sociopathic/narcissistic personality disorders. Maybe there's something in being a liberal that means we've had to come to grips with such realities in our personal lives - while conservatism still lives in deep denial. I don't know. I do know that George is one sick puppy -- a sickness only exceeded by those who celebrate his pathologies for their own self-interests.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #48
78. What's terribly disturbing is his sickness is like an infectious disease.
He is like a highly infectious toxim. His influence is making us all sick!!!

I've never witnessed anything like that before.

It truly frightens me that this man and his cabal are able to "infect" human masses in such a way.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #78
116. That's why references to 1930's Germany are relevant and appropriate.
These people are but a lesion on a body politic infested with corruption.
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Also read "Bush on the Couch"
for a very complete psychological profile. Has anyone ever done one on the chimp's brain, Rove?
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meppie-meppie not Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. that was a good book..
now if they did one one on Rove I would imagine it would have to be titled, "Karl in the Crapper", given where he resides ;-)
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. very very interesting...
very insightful, i think it brings out what we already know and gives it a name and a face...but how to cure ME? that's the real question, how do we remove bush from power for the sake of us all, without destroying the very thing we're trying to save?
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meppie-meppie not Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. impeachment nt
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #70
97. that would be the logical thing
but do you really think that the repug congress would allow this? logic is not their strongpoint...

i have my doubts that barring some radical new information (or not even then) we'll ever see bush impeached...(impeachment being a very partisan proceeding, and the congress being solidly repug...

so we must revolt instead! (only half-joking)
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jaime_176 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
76. That is really an excellent article. He writes so well.
I 'm glad you posted it so I could read it again. I think it truly points up the complicity of all of us when we react negatively against him...that we are a part of the disease...because he makes us insanely angry and hateful. That is something of which I have been so upset about...that he can make me have such violent reactions. I cannot look at him, as I have said, without feeling "unclean". It is so important to focus on positive ideas, such as the power of this community, to dispel those bad vibes. We are the ones who get hurt by our own anger and our hate...it sure doesn't bother him. I don't deserve to be hurt. Maybe we should just retrain our minds to be working for rather than against. He really does debase everything he comes near. Hold in my anger and concentrate on achieving a higher level of circumspection for myself. Choke.
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Hebegirl Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #76
106. Inside Out
Say it sister. That is SO true. I don't want to sound too "out there" but a similar type of message has been coming to me from various corners of the Universe, filling me a forgiving spirit toward the follower sheep- I met a metaphysical healer who practices quantum healing (energy healing)...and others have crossed my path. I can even forgive Bush on one level, and see him as human too, which doesn't excuse him and the power mongers AT ALL (the First Step is to admit there's a problem, Shrubbie! Work the Program Already!!), though he is dangerous and this madness must stop. This collective disease is making me very very ill indeed. I have never seen anything like it and frankly never thought I would. I wonder if it is going to have to turn around metaphysically, which doesn't excuse us from action or righteous protest of course. I don't know how else to fight it without surrounding the disease, containing it, and disabling it (like how the human immune response functions). Maybe within the Field that Paul Levy talks about, the seeds of our own healing exist! But what messages kick that ol' immune system into gear? And why do so many innocent people have to suffer and die in the process :(
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jaime_176 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #106
126. Yes. No excuses for him and his policies.
Just try to keep ourselves psychically healthy!!
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #47
95. Bush has Narcissitic Personality disorder....
said the psychologist.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #95
117. Yup. He's the poster boy for NPD as described in DSM-IV.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
11. glad it is coming to the forefront now, but didn't we notice this right
after election fraud 2000? Rove started his campaign of twisting things in the media immediately....and comparisons with Hitler and the Third Reich were evident in the Chimp's first year in office ....
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Well,
We noticed it, but the masses here in this country don't wish to be awakened to this knowledge. Might upset their status quo.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
73. Remember the television mini-series
(2 parts) on Hitler that caused such a flap with the extremist Right wing?

They know, too. It would appear they welcome fascism.

Certainly they recognized the parallels between Bush and the rise of Hitler's Germany, or why would they have fought against the program being aired?

I mean, no where in the production was Das Bush mentioned. Why get upset?

Do they protest the history channel?
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
88. Rove used this formula from the beginning of his career. He has just
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 08:42 PM by BrklynLiberal
perfected them by now.
If you remember there is a story about how he fought for a year over the election of a judge whose campaig he was involved with...totally dirty campaign. And when it was all over and done, his guy won. Look what he did to Max Cleland. Hs dirty tactics probably started when he was running for class president in elementary school. Wasn't he a Lee Atwater protege?
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keopeli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
12. This is a puff piece
A liberal will view it and say "see, I told you so"

A conservative will view it and say "see, the liberal press"

Remarkable would be for a public official to say this to the press. Who is out there that will call a spade a spade?

<sound of empty vaccuum of space>

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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
13. Whoa..a major academic is comparing Bu*h Adm to Nazi's
Say it ain't so. Looks like DU conspiracy theory is going mainstream.

I am amazed at how we here at DU are able to see what others are able to see, but only much much sooner.

Bu*h is a nucking fazi, just like his father and his father. Herr Rove is a nucking fazi, just like his father Herr Rover.

Guess Operation Paper Clip wasn't such a hot idea after all, was it Dulles?
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
74. Here's a column by Thom Hartmann from March 2003
I've never forgotten it.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/03/20_... >

Here is an excerpt from Mr. Hartmann's article;
When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History


"To deal with those who dissented from his policies, at the advice of his politically savvy advisors, he and his handmaidens in the press began a campaign to equate him and his policies with patriotism and the nation itself. National unity was essential, they said, to ensure that the terrorists or their sponsors didn't think they'd succeeded in splitting the nation or weakening its will. In times of war, they said, there could be only "one people, one nation, and one commander-in-chief" ("Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer"), and so his advocates in the media began a nationwide campaign charging that critics of his policies were attacking the nation itself. Those questioning him were labeled "anti-German" or "not good Germans," and it was suggested they were aiding the enemies of the state by failing in the patriotic necessity of supporting the nation's valiant men in uniform. It was one of his most effective ways to stifle dissent and pit wage-earning people (from whom most of the army came) against the "intellectuals and liberals" who were critical of his policies."
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Niche Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
15. hitler did not base his beliefs nor his doctrine on christianity.
* does.
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KDLarsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. I wouldn't consider * a Christian..
.. but like Hitler, he's using the Christian movement as a tool.
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Montanan Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. Nor would I...
...and you're so right. The only tenet these people really have is the acquisition and exercise of absolute power over others.

Religious organizations and governments have always had a symbiotic relationship, but today's Conservative Christian rabble is extremely easy to lead, because they have surrendered their critical thinking up front in exchange for "salvation".

Perhaps the only hope of defusing this ticking bomb would be the emergence of strong anti-Bush opinion from "respected" religious leaders. I'm sad to say, however, that seems unlikely to happen; they know on which side their bread is buttered.
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AirAmFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
115. You mean, for example, get Jerry Falwell riled up over all the Moonies
in the "marriage promotion" operation of the "Faith-Based" offices at the White House and in HHS?
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AngryWhiteLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. Bullshit.
Hitler's movement and philosophies were infused with Xtian and nordic mythological themes. His hatred of the Jews was fueled by the engrained Protestant belief that Jews are responsible for Jesus' death and are not worthy of Heaven until they believe Jesus' is the son of God.

Pick up a history book sometime...

JB
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theycanbiteme Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Forgot to mention...
that he also sprinkled plenty of the occult into the mix...
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
64. No, but he used Christianity in much the same way Bush does
Bush might actually be a believer. I don't know if Hitler was or not. BUT the Straussians (neoCons), bona fide fascists (for real), definitely favor using religion for "the masses" to keep them occupied and "moral" and compliant. If you want links, let me know (might need to PM me in case I don't make it back to this thread -- and include the link to the thread too).

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
16. it's the christian right + the corporate oligarchy
the christian right right depends on the anti-tax freaks to further their political agenda.
if serious cracks should appear in that alliance -- then the corporatists are deprived of foot soldiers and the foot soldiers are deprived of both financing and intelligent leadership.

the corporate oligarchy simply doesn't care about christian fanaticism -- money buys you out of everything.

discrediting the christian lunatics must be one of the corner stones of leftist plans for the political future.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
22. It is indeed in plain sight and I have seen it for 4 years now....
as has the rest of the world. The people who don't see it are freeper bushbots....

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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Yup...
= the

for
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
33. with all due respect to Mr. MacArthur
we here in the DU "talk about it" and "look at it" ALL THE G.D. TIME. It's the CORPORATE MEDIA that refuses to do so.
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Melynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
34. A Big Advantage
We have a big advantage over Hitler's Germany. We have the Internet to get the truth out. The "good Germans of the Third Reich didn't have any way to communicate with each other or to get alternative ideas out to the public. We do.
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theycanbiteme Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. The Internet....can and will be shutdown...
you can bet on it. Its alot easier to control believe it or not.
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Melynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
59. Perhaps your right
Maybe your right about the Internet can be shutdown. My Road Runner connection was just down for a week.
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AngryWhiteLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
35. Finally!! Calling the Xtian Fascists out on the carpet!
We need MORE of this TRUTH to be told and ZERO tolerance for this Church-State Fusion Movement!

History will look upon US to see if we did anything to STOP history from repeating itself.

JB
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
39. "He wanted to grasp how democracies disintegrate"
Yep, he can study it firsthand here in the USA
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theycanbiteme Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
41. OMG...
First, seeing the NYT publish this makes me wonder HOW it got
published.
Second, its just confirming what we, here at DU, have always known...

Get this far and wide people...NOW.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. Hmmm.........makes ya wanta stay out of a church, eh?
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #50
99. Just the opposite. Ask the preacher to deliver a sermon on fascism.
See my new thread in the political discussions forum on Fascism. It includes a link to a sermon delivered by a minister in Austin on "dangers of fascism in America."

If we get enough congregations and religious folk on our side, we win.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
43. The Republicans only seek to use the Christian right as a tool like Hitler
did. Hitler did not personally believe in Christianity. He only sought to use religious rhetoric as a political tool to gain and consolidate power. It's entirely possible Bush is the same way.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
56. The Nazi's Never Went Away
They just bided their time. They're back. Will we ever learn?
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #56
109. Hell, we brought a bunch of them over here after the war.

They were salted throughout the gov't. We have never been free of nazis
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rdmccur Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
60. Someone (back just before the election)
posted (on another website than this one I believe) one of Hitler's speeches (given in the 1930's) which sounded very much like someting one might hear today from a Neocon (e.g. *). Does anyone here know what this speech is? If I can find it I will post it.
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Hitler speech re Christianity.

"The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality. Today Christians stand at the head of our country. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press-- in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of LIBERAL excess during the past years."

Adolph Hitler
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AngryWhiteLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. Thanks for the quote...nails the Xtian Fundy / Nazi connection.
I'll be adding this quote to my signature file.

Once again, we see that the designs of the Neocon/Straussian fascists were born from the political idealism of the NAZIS.

Regards,
JB
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #65
100. Do you have a link for your source?
I'll add this to my links on fascism. This one should get some attention.
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #100
131. Sorry, I lost the link.
There is a DUer around here who has the link. I don't remember who it is. Eventually someone will turn up the link for you.

Originally, I hadn't even saved the quote, but as time went along, it seemed more and more useful. (Next time, I'll save the link.)
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
66. I'm preaching a sermon about this in early March.
Thanks for another resource.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #66
79. Hope you read this UU sermon from Vet's Day: Living Under Fascism.
An Austin, Texas Unitarian minister gave this Veteran's Day 2004 sermon and it is on target. I'll bet he/she wouldn't mind 'loaning' parts to you. Good luck with spreading the word.

http://www.uua.org/news/2004/voting/sermon_loehr.html
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. But of course.
I am a UU seminary student. But I've been working on this issue myself since right after the 2000 election.

I've also posted on the rise of religious nationalism here on DU. Here's the thread, written on 11/3/04:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I also posted a link to that sermon under "Fascism" on the beta-Demopedia, so it will be there for posterity when Demopedia comes up.

But thanks for posting the link again here--it's a great sermon that everyone should read.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #66
101. Good for you! Can you tell us which church or religious group
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 01:03 AM by Liberty Belle
you'll be educating?

Please tell us the reception you get from your congregation.
If it's positive, your experience may embolden others to do the same.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #101
122. A UU congregation.
I'll probably post it after I deliver it, so will give you an update to how it was received then.

Peace!
ITF
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despairing optimist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
71. "A student"? Fritz Stern is a leading scholar of European history!
He's quite famous among history scholars. Like a number of people who've commented here, I'm disappointed that the NYT not only buried the story in its regional section (uh, let's see: the Twin Towers in NYC collapsed, thousands dead--sounds regional to me, right? Could even be in the Manhattan borough section.), but editors also chose to hold off publication for two months AND put it in the Saturday edition, which relatively few Times readers bother with, let alone anyone else.

Nonetheless, it's good that they didn't can it completely. When an authority such as Stern makes the comparison between what's happening in the US today and what happened 70 years ago in Germany, it's wakeup time.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've detected (finally) more of an inclination among NYT and WaPo editors and reporters not to let the administration get away with things. There seems to be a shift toward greater skepticism in Iraq reporting and in the coverage of Social Security "reform," and of course we all caught the coverage of Bush's initial stingy response to the tsunami disaster--as if he was floating a trial balloon filled with meanspiritedness to see how far it would float before someone shot it down. The Bush people aren't going to get as free a ride as they did for the past four years. Leaks and scandals will come forward; they've made a lot of enemies just about everywhere in the Beltway and outside it. Wait and see.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #71
111. I'm glad to see it
it's time the "F" word gets used. If we have sig lines right now, you'll see that my sig line alludes to just that. It became my sig line in January of 2004, but I suspicioned the fascist lean in the months following 9/11 when it became PC and even necessary to display a flag on doors, cars and anything else the collective could think of.

I decided back then to jump on the bandwagon too. Well, not exactly. I put up a flag. The World Flag. Nationalism is very dangerous. Nationalism mixed with religion is fascism.

Welcome to Amerika.....................
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despairing optimist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #111
127. When even US conservatives are beginning to suspect it's fascism,
we're due for a political realignment. My guess is that the Republican paleocons will join forces with their Democratic counterparts and anyone who'll call themselves moderates. But anyone left of them needs to keep pushing and crying bloody murder to keep the fire lit under them to do the work that needs to be done to get this country on a saner course. Yes, the centrist alliance will make the usual motions of ignoring and marginalizing "the left," only to take credit later for things the left pointed out much earlier. But the main thing is that we head off the neocons at the pass.

Fritz Stern is not a leftist academic, as if that should exclude his comments from serious consideration by the "mainstream" anyway. And, halleluiah, he's not a lone voice in the wilderness. If he's saying it and he's an opinion maker in an elite academic institution, people like his old colleague Zbig Brzezinski are probably thinking it too.
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Newfoundland Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
80.  Advertisement in this post
I don't understand what an "Advertisement" has to do with yet-another-hitler warning about America. Perhaps some analogy of what the USA is doing that relates to the Jew-hating scumbag hitler is in order here.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Thanks for stopping in!
Welcome to DU. "Advertisement" is the result of an oversight in cut&paste.

I've got your analogy, but try this: Guantanamo, the sweep of Muslims stateside who were held for months without due process, the spiriting off of a law-abiding German citizen to torture in Afghanistan as reported in tomorrow's NYT, etc, etc.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #84
93. ...and now farewell
.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. There is a list in the post responses.
Try reading them before you respond.

There is also a link to another article listed above.

If you really want an answer to your question, go back and read them.

Vellkommen to DU.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #80
87. Strange response to an interesting
serious and timely article about an interesting man with important things to say. Hmm.
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poe Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
89. McAmeriWalMartika- they thought they were free
do not be surprised by this. consider the following: General Reinhard Gehlen, the head of German military intelligence on the eastern front was brought over to America along with his network of spies and terrorists to assume their same roles in the American intelligence agencies. Gehlen was a primary consultant to Alan Dulles (first head of CIA) in the establishment and structuring of the CIA. at present KGB head Yvgeny Primakov and Stasi (german secret police) head Markus Wolf have been consulting with the department of der-father, i mean der-homeland security. national i.d. card, unlimited domestic surveillance, indefinite detentions etc. welcome to the machine.
at least you're not applying for a job in the attorney general's office in mexico city where those hired are required to have a microchip implant. that policy courtesy of the giuliani group. security ya' know.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
90. There Is The Christian Left Too . . .
repigs do not have a monopoly on Christianity.
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infusionman Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
91. There was a thread recently that...
Described King George as the Antichrist.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
92. KKKarl Rove's grandfather a Nazi. Rove has dual citizenship

http://www.rense.com/general42/rove.htm

According to reliable sources, as well as our own Al Martin Raw.com investigation, Karl Rove is, in fact, the grandson of Karl Heinz Rover, the Gauleiter of Oldenburg (incorrectly reported previously as Mecklenberg).
Rove's grandfather Rover was evidently not only the Gauleiter, but the Reich-Statthalter (or governor, comparable to the Nazi State Party Chairman for the city-region), who was also a partner and senior engineer of a company which built Birkenau, the concentration camp in Nazi Germany.
So Karl Rove has been identified as the leaker responsible for the deaths of more than 70 CIA assets overseas (See previous story "Will the Real Chemical Ali Please Stand Up? The Curious Case of Ambassador Joseph Wilson)
When Ambassador Wilson was asked how he knew it was Rove, he had documents in his possession identifying Rove as the leaker from a secret investigation of the State Department's Internal; Security Unit. It was a from a small clique, four Clinton holdovers in that department of the State Department that were sympathetic to what had happened to Wilson.
<snip>
Wilson has announced that he will have his private attorneys petition the Department of Justice demanding that Roverer a/k/a Karl Rove be prosecuted under the 1982 Intelligence Identity Protection Act . This law specifically supposed to prevent what has happened in this case and that is the Bush administration attempting to retaliate against a senior government official who tells the truth about that administration by revealing the identities of intelligence members within their own families.
This is a law that was specifically designed to prevent this from happening. It is a law that was proffered by the Democrats in 1982 that the Republicans fought and could not defeat. The law carries an automatic mandatory 10 years to life imprisonment as punishment.
And where would Rove go? Karl Rove, it should be noted, is a dual citizen of the United States and Germany. Because of his position he has special diplomatic status. The idea is that if its absolutely necessary he could go to Switzerland where he couldn't be extradited.
<snip>
This is very explosive and what makes it so explosive is that this Intelligence Identity Act, if it can be proved, and Rove can be successfully prosecuted and if Rove reveals that the president George Bush told him to institute this leak, then the President's automatic shield of immunity is removed and the president himself can be prosecuted for murder if any deaths of any US intelligence agents or assets resulted from the leak.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #92
103. If true, this is a ticking time bomb.
But what is your source that Rove is the grandson of Rover?
I have seen this story before, but hesitated to forward it without some documentation of the link between the two.
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AirAmFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #92
119. Karl Rove has German citizenship? I'd take this alleged factoid with a
whole BOX of salt, especially since I see the name "Al Martin" associated with it. Al Martin's nose is longer than Pinocchio's. He doesn't hesitate to stretch the truth into far-fetched fiction to make a point. He's sometimes amusing, but hardly credible. Do you have another source?
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neweurope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #92
137. This alleged German connection has intrigued me especially
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 05:57 AM by neweurope
since I read in an American source once that Rove was of Swedish origin.
I just did some googling.

The Gauleiter and Reichsstatthalter of Bremen and Oldenburg was not "Karl Heinz Rover" as mentioned in your source but

Carl Georg Rver. An ardent follower of Hitler and the party, member since day one. He died in 1942. He was married twice. 1920 he had a daughter from his first wife. After the death of his wife he married again and got "several sons which died shortly after birth". I am not saying that Rove ISN'T a grandson of Rver - maybe he is the son of the daughter and (kind of) adopted the name of his grandfather, who knows. I'm only saying that the info has to be taken with a grain of salt. The only other "Rver's" I could come up with were

Egon Carl Rver
Hanno Carl Rver

but I didn't get a link to any one of them.

As to the dual citizenship I would find it very unusual because Germany doesn't allow this often. And as to the phrase "The idea is that if it's absolutely necessary he could go to Switzerland where he couldn't be extradited.": this I do no understand. A citizen of Germany certainly wouldn't find refuge in Switzerland which is an autonomous state.


---------------------

Remember Fallujah!

Bush to The Hague

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Lisabtrucking Donating Member (807 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
102. I have to say, I have known this. I spent a year researching
The holocaust. Personal story's and eye witness accounts to what happen.
I see things going on right now, like control of the media, stealing of election, murder, and changing of books "like the grand canon was made by Noah"
I see it happening, and people are the same way about it as they were back then.
History is bound to repeat itself.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #102
104. You would think that our system of government wouldn't allow this.
It's amazing that this is possible. But we have a country where the law doesn't matter and there isn't anyone that can do anything about it. It won't change until the House, Senate or Prez switches parties. What a fucking tragedy? I still don't know how it will go down for the US. Can we end up becoming irrelevant (the US)? I hope not, but I fear so.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #104
108. You would think the American PEOPLE wouldn't allow this
But then you have to remember that back in the 1930s, most Germans were so taken with Hitler and puffed up on the national pride he instilled in them that they didn't realize how wrong they were till it was too late. The New American Century jingoism is more insidious but every bit as dangerous.

I'll bet that in 40-50 years, just like in post-war Germany, there will be a lot of ashamed Americans regretting their stupidity in following Der Fuehrer Bush**.
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Lisabtrucking Donating Member (807 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #108
125. I agree, like I said we are bound to repeat history, because we don't
learn from it.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #108
129. Yes, you are right. Some are already rethinking what they've done.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
107. Stern's speech does NOT actually mention the "Christian right" in the US
(unless the online version has been censored). The NYT article states that Stern "warned in a speech about the danger posed in this country by the rise of the Christian right". Strangely, this is not so, again, unless the online version of the speech has been censored. The speech is much more subtle than that. It doesn't directly mention conditions in the US today, but I'm sure that the intelligent audience there could read between the lines and draw parallels to the Bush regime. The only reference to current events is here, in the introduction to his speech (2nd paragraph):
"I am also grateful for the timing of this event. It would be nice to ascribe this to some invisible hand, but I suspect it had to do with the visibly crowded schedule of the Foreign Minister. Still, for me it is felicitous because it is an encouragement at a hard time; events of the last ten days have intensified my reasoned apprehension, my worry about the immediate future of the country that saved us and taught us and gave us so much. I take heart from tonight, since renewed hope is itself a marvelous gift."

The speech is here: http://www.lbi.org/fritzstern.html

These parts of the speech particularly caught my attention (in addition to the quotes in the NYT piece) :

"But the rise of National Socialism was neither inevitable nor accidental. It did have deep roots, but the most urgent lesson to remember is that it could have been stopped. This is but one of the many lessons contained in modern German history, lessons that should not be squandered in cheap and ignorant analogies. A key lesson is that civic passivity and willed blindness were the preconditions for the triumph of National Socialism, which many clearheaded Germans recognized at the time as a monstrous danger and ultimate nemesis."
<snip>
"Allow me a few remarks not about the banality of evil but about its triumph in a deeply civilized country. After the Great War and Germanys defeat, conditions were harsh and Germans were deeply divided between moderates and democrats on the one hand and fanatic extremists of the right and the left on the other. National Socialists portrayed Germany as a nation that had been betrayed or stabbed in the back by socialists and Jews; they portrayed Weimar Germany as a moral-political swamp; they seized on the Bolshevik-Marxist danger, painted it in lurid colors, and stoked peoples fear in order to pose as saviors of the nation... Richly financed by corporate interests, they denounced liberalism as the greatest, most invidious threat, and attacked it for its tolerance, rationality and cosmopolitan culture... Throughout, the Nazis vilified liberalism as a semi-Marxist-Jewish conspiracy and, with Germany in the midst of unprecedented depression and immiseration, they promised a national rebirth."
<snip>
"People were enthralled by the Nazis cunning transposition of politics into carefully staged pageantry, into flag-waving martial mass. At solemn moments, the National Socialists would shift from the pseudo-religious invocation of Providence to traditional Christian forms: In his first radio address to the German people, twenty-four hours after coming to power, Hitler declared, The National Government will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built up. They regard Christianity as the foundation of our national morality and the family as the basis of national life. <snip>
"Though modern German history offers lessons in both disaster and recovery, German has remained the language of politics in crisis. And the principal lesson speaks of the fragility of democracy, the fatality of civic passivity or indifference; German history teaches us that malice and simplicity have their own appeal, that force impresses, and that nothing in the public realm is inevitable."
<snip>
"Every democracy needs a liberal fundament, a Bill of Rights enshrined in law and spirit, for this alone gives democracy the chance for self-correction and reform. Without it, the survival of democracy is at risk. Every genuine conservative knows this."

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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #107
124. The more I think about this, the stranger it seems - why did the NYT
article say that Stern "warned in a speech about the danger posed in this country by the rise of the Christian right", when in fact this is not true??? It's hard to believe that Hedges could get this past the editorial staff, exaggerating the speech's parallels between Bushco and Hitler's rise to power. Usually such things are *underplayed* in the media, not exaggerated. In a way, Hedges puts words into Stern's mouth that were not present in the fairly subtle speech (although reading between the lines of the speech and reading the excerpts from Hedges' more recent interview of Stern, it is of course clear that Stern really does fear for this country).

Or was the online version of the speech censored??? It sure would be interesting to find someone that was there that night...
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sarahlee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 05:19 AM
Response to Original message
110. Democrats Call on President to Stop Covert Propaganda in U.S. Media
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 05:24 AM by sarahlee
News From House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi
H-204, The Capitol, Washington D.C. 20515

http://democraticleader.house.gov

Friday, January 7, 2005

Contact: Brendan Daly/Jennifer Crider, 202-226-7616

Pelosi, Senior House Democrats Call on President to Stop Covert Propaganda in U.S. Media

WASHINGTON, D.C. - House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi and senior House Democrats today called on President Bush to stop the alarming use of illegal covert propaganda to promote government policy after two new accounts of such activity surfaced today. In a letter to the President, they pointed out that independent investigations have revealed the use of covert propaganda in at least three federal agencies.

"We are concerned that these three incidents, while serious and disturbing on their own, may not be isolated incidents," the lawmakers wrote to the President. "It would be abhorrent to our system of government if these incidents were part of a deliberate pattern of behavior by your Administration to deceive the public and the media in an effort to further your policy objectives."

They called on the President to "publicly renounce the use of covert propaganda to influence public opinion. And we urge you to direct your department and agency heads to immediately disclose all past and ongoing efforts to engage in covert propaganda, whether through contracts with commentators, the distribution of video news releases, or other means."

The lawmakers pointed out that "covert propaganda to influence public opinion is unethical and dangerous. It violates fundamental principles of open government. And it is illegal."

The letter was signed by House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA), the senior Democrat on the Government Reform Committee, Rep. George Miller (D-CA), the senior Democrat on the House Education and the Workforce Committee, Rep. David Obey (D-WI), the senior Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee, and Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-MD), the senior Democrat on the Criminal Justice, Drug Policy, and Human Resources Subcommittee of the Government Reform Committee.

The letter was in reaction to two reports today. USA Today disclosed that the Department of Education paid $240,000 to conservative political commentator Armstrong Williams to routinely promote the No Child Left Behind Act on his broadcast shows without revealing that he was being paid by the government to do so. Rep. Miller separately today requested that the Department's Inspector General investigate this contract with Williams.

And the Washington Post and New York Times reported today on a General Accounting Office report to Rep. Waxman and Rep. Obey that found the Office of Drug Control Policy violated the law when it used video news releases to promote an anti-marijuana message without revealing to television news viewers that the on-camera "reporter" was really an actor, not a journalist. In May, the GAO found that the Department of Health and Services also violated the law by producing and distributing similar video news releases regarding Medicare policy.

The text of the letter follows.


***
January 7, 2005


The President
The White House
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. President:

We are writing about the Administration's use of taxpayer dollars to influence public opinion. Recent investigations have revealed at least three separate instances in which the Administration has used covert propaganda to shape public perceptions.

Today, USA Today reported that, "Seeking to build support among black families for its education reform law, the Bush administration paid a prominent black pundit $240,000 to promote the law on his nationally syndicated television show and to urge other black journalists to do the same." The article reported that the Department of Education paid Armstrong Williams, a conservative political commentator, $240,000 to promote the No Child Left Behind Act during his broadcast television and radio shows and to encourage other prominent black journalists to take similar actions.<1>

Yesterday, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that video news releases concerning the dangers of marijuana, involving actors pretending to be reporters and distributed by the Office of National Drug Control Policy, were illegal "covert propaganda."<2>

Last May, GAO made a similar finding regarding video news releases that also involved fake reporters and were distributed by the Department of Health and Human Services in support of the Medicare Modernization Act.<3>

Covert propaganda to influence public opinion is unethical and dangerous. It violates fundamental principles of open government and it distorts the free press and the public's right to know. And it is illegal. GAO found that both sets of video news releases violated prohibitions against publicity and propaganda because they did not identify the federal government as the source of the fabricated news reports.

We are concerned that these three incidents, while serious and disturbing on their own, may not be isolated incidents but rather a deliberate pattern of behavior by your Administration to deceive the public and the media in an effort to further your policy objectives.

We ask you to publicly renounce the use of covert propaganda to influence public opinion. And in furtherance of official congressional oversight, we request that you direct all department and agency heads to immediately provide to us all past and ongoing efforts to engage in covert propaganda, whether through contracts with commentators, the distribution of video news releases, or other means.


Sincerely,

Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi
Rep. Henry A. Waxman, Ranking Minority Member, Government Reform Committee
Rep. David R. Obey, Ranking Minority Member, Appropriations Committee
Rep. George Miller, Ranking Minority Member, Education and the Workforce Committee
Rep. Elijah Cummings, Ranking Minority Member, Criminal Justice, Drug Policy, and Human Resources Subcommittee, Government Reform Committee


<1> White House Paid Commentator to Promote Law, USA Today, (Jan. 7, 2005).

<2> U.S. Government Accountability Office, Office of National Drug Control Policy - Video News Release (Jan. 4, 2005) (GAO/B-303495).

<3> U.S. Government Accountability Office, Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services - Video News Releases (May 19, 2004) (GAO/B-302710).
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JAK1941 Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
114. "Warning From a Student of Democracy's Collapse"
I just finished reading a three-page article, "The Rise of the Amerikan Nazis," and find this thread to be quite pertinent. One can't help but think that history is repeating itself and, unless we do something to stop it, we may be doomed to defeat the same as Hitler.

:evilfrown:
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #114
118. Welcome to DU JAK1941!!!!........Well said!!!
:bounce:
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bobaloo2 Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
123. For many years...
I've told people that the greatest myth of the 20th century is that the US won WW2. The US beat Germany, but it did not defeat the Nazis. They went underground and laid low or became useful to the new governments, but they're coming back, just not in Germany.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
128. What's the difference between a "liberal" and one on the "extreme left"?
Are they/he talking about communism? What is he using to define each? I assume this is in the context of '30s Germany.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
133. kick
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oecher3 Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
134. Don't take this the wrong way...
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 01:32 AM by oecher3
...but has anyone ever thought how so many Germans (and assume they answer honestly) say they were afraid and didn't want to do anything against Hitler? How come they did see his horror acts coming, or if so, why did nobody stop him?

Now, given this is true, and believe me I have been asking me this question for way more then two years now, will people learn from history?

The day/year after the "Reichstagsbrand" in Berlin, were people thinking this is Hitler's way to give us a dictatorship, or did they believe it was a terror act? Suddenly, 9/11 (and I know this is close to being distasteful) gets suspicious, but an act that reduced the civil rights followed. And believe me, many Americans are eager to follow W in the fight against terror to wherever he takes us. Will there be Marshall law giving him even more power soon.

No to be even more cynical, I got started here at DU, because I wanted to make a commend about Secretary Snow and his latest remarks. But this ties in well anyway.
Cheney and Snow both said the administration believes, it will cut the deficits in half in the next 5 years. First I thought, ambitious, and then where are they going to get the extra year. Of course, I am convinced that they are not secretly telling us we are going to take over the US and turn it into a dictatorship, this was probably just rhetoric. However, Republicans are sure convinced they have beaten the Democrats for quite a while and who knows what will be the next law?
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
135. This is truely frightening
Heil Bushitler. :(
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memory Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
136. I think that Dominionism is the driving force of
all this madness.

These articles have probably been posted before, but I consider them must read articles for everyone that I can get to pay attention.

Since I live in Oklahoma (where my senators are the above mentioned Coburn and the other bastion of outrage...Jim Inhofe...sigh), the number of people that will look at these and pay attention is relatively small, but we ARE here.

There are many very good, extremely disturbing articles at this site

http://www.yuricareport.com /

The 2 that I have read over and over and pass on to others are:

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOf...

&

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/Lang_BushAndThe...

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Debbie13 Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
138. Does anyone find it Scary that * wants to get rid of the United Nations?
I see this on a street corner where I live. The same guy who was pushing the B*sh agenda around election time is now carrying a sign saying "It's time for the UN to go".

I know there have been problems which need to be corrected, but don't we need this gathering of the nations?
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MHalblaub Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. No, why?
Isn't there only one nation under god?
So don't bother for the rest.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
140. kick - as our democracy goes slip-slidin' away
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MHalblaub Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #140
141. "Kick" - What does it mean? Sorry, I'm a beginner.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. A reply to a thread "kicks" or "bumps" it to the top of the list in that
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 07:26 PM by Vidar
forum.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. Welcome to DU.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
144. American Jews think it can't happen here!
You will find Jews across the political spectrum convincing themselves that a Holocaust or a pogrom could ever take place in America. Wrong! And it will probably come from the most unexpected source.

If we are not safe here, we are not safe anywhere!
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