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Postmanx Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 11:41 AM
Original message
Press Image of Gun Owner Not Far Off, Except for All Those Women


NEW YORK A Gallup Poll released this morning reveals that the average American owns 1.7 guns, with the average gun owner possessing 4.4 of them. The press is quick to promote stereotypes of the average gun owner as a white male, most likely Republican, living in a rural area or the South. But how well does reality match the image? The new Gallup Poll shows that the stereotype is not that far off, but with several twists.

For one thing, one out of three American women say they own a gun. That's not much below the overall mark of 40% for all American adults.

As for other elements of the stereotype: More than half (53%) of Republicans own guns, compared with 36% of political independents and 31% of Democrats. Whites are more likely than nonwhites to own (44% and 24%, respectively), according to Gallup.

Gallup also asked those with guns in their households about the total number of guns they have. A majority of gun owners (62%) have more than one gun on their properties, including 29% who say they have five or more guns.
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yep...
it's what has been said all along: gun owners represent all spectrums of American life.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. but how many go to the range - and how often do they shoot a gun
My guns are rarely fired, and the last time I went to a range was 3 months ago.

I believe guns are just not that big a deal to most folks.
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Until someone wants to regulate the law-abiding.
Edited on Tue Jan-04-05 11:58 AM by BOHICA06
Elections are turned when that happens.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. true - but I'd use the phrase "OVER-regulate the law-abiding."
:-)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. Tee hee hee.....
It's astonishing how often this particular bit of idiocy crops among the trigger happy.

Laws against bank robbery only "regulate the law-abiding" too. But somehow I doubt the American Bankers Association is going to call for their repeal.
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jukes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. BUT
how many also have detailed maps of the DC sewer system?
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Why, do you need some??
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. But, but, but, The Democrats want to take my guns away!
NOT!
Why do we keep letting them say this?
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Postmanx Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Because all those pushing for further gun control
call themselves Democrats
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IStriker Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Not all, just most, and definitely all the loud ones
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
78. Ah-nold....
signed the California .50 BMG ban.

Reagan banned the manufacture of machineguns.

Bush 41 forbade the importation of chinese guns by EO.


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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. because almost all handgun deaths are pointless
i don't own a gun, and i don't particularly care about this issue, so:

how many handguns are used in thwarting robberies or assaults every year? 10?

how many handguns are used by men in shooting their spouses every year? 1000?

how many handguns are used in gang violence every year? 10,000?

simply put, many democrats (and "independents") feel that guns are out of control in this country. i suppose some gun owners & even some GOP idiots feel that way, too. if you want to defend gun rights on constitutional grounds, fine. but i, for one, don't see any "well regulated militias" around my neighborhood. the NRA & gun nutters reduce everything to a manichaean up/down black/white choice. it isn't that way & it never has been. hunters are not the same as crazy ex husbands. but o no, we can't nuance the issue, can we, red america?

"its waaaaay too late for gun control in america" - steve earle
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. No guns in this urban household
and with all due respect to gun owners, if I found out one of my neighbors had guns I would assume either:

- A paranoid right wing nut

- A gangsta who needs to enforce some crack cocaine "contracts" the hard way.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. And you know what they say about ass u me friend.
I have had several guns in my house when I lived in the city. I'm neither a RW paranoid, nor a coke dealer. I'm a fairly normal, radical left winger who didn't have any guns until I inherited my father's modest collection upon his death. Occaisonly I still like to go out and shoot clay pigeons, and like knowing that if I needed to hunt, I could. I also believe in rational gun control measures.

And now that I live in the country, I would like to acquire an antique, functioning cannon. Yes, I like things that go boom once in a while. It would also be handy to have the heavy ordinance when this country goes to hell, which will probably occur in our lifetime.

Don't let the stereotypes blind you to the reality of things.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. With all due respect, eh?
I own two. I am neither a paranoid right wing nut nor a gangsta who deals cocaine.

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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. I disagree with that
I am a woman and own many guns. I love going to the range. I grew up with guns in the house. I am a retired nurse, a wildlife rehabber, and a housewife. I don't fit into your definitions.
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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. With all due respect?
Does the term collector come to mind?

I live in the country (7 miles to the nearest country store). I currently have over 70 firearms - all but a few in safes. A couple stay near the back doors because we have a coyote problem - they're killing pets and livestock.

I used to live in a city - at least I'd call it a city. The metro population was over 2,000,000 at the time. I owned more firearms then. I collect them for the sake of collecting and as investments.

I'm anything but a RW nut or a drug dealer.
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Ms_Mary Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
38. I'm neither of those options. nt
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
48. Don't fit your profile either...but I own a gun.
I'm not a member of the NRA, I'm a life-long Democrat, and I own a handgun. The only reason I even considered it is that there is no other living being in my home but me. One of my brothers-in-law is a hunter, so I get to go skeet-shooting with his long guns from time to time. I'm by no means a gun-nut, a wingnut, a gangsta, or a crack dealer. I'm a 53 year old homeowning woman.

I have gone to the firing range from time to time -- if you're going to have a gun, you'd damned well better know how to use it.

Oh...and my neighbors don't know I own a gun...unless of course they're good buddies with one of the local police and he's got a big mouth. Unless and until (the universe forfend) I ever have to use it in my house, there's no reason for them to know.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
50. I live in a suburban house and own about 31 firearms
Ten of which happen to be handguns.

I collect weapons of historical and technical interest, and keep all firearms locked up in a sturdy safe.

So which of the two do you assume me to be? Paranoid RW Nut or Ganster?

And what does that make YOU?
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
80. Or, you could assume....
that they were gay and didn't want to be bludgeoned to death...

http://www.pinkpistols.org

Or that they might be a minority who wants the ability to defend themselves...

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1596237,00.html (this is from South Africa)

or

http://sohp.org/research/lfac/N&O/6.5b18-Mabel_Williams.html
which talks about her husband, Robert F. Williams.

"Whenever the Ku Klux Klan tried to terrorize the Monroe black community, Williams and a corps of black veterans were waiting with M-1 rifles and machine guns."

Care to guess how he died? He died after a long battle with Hodgkin's disease. He didn't end up lynched.
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fatherjohn Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. handguns
You may simply not realize it, but handguns prevent hundreds of thousands of assaults and robberies per year. You simply don't have the facts on hand, but they are available.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Laughable, but apparently you don't have the facts either friend
Handguns are more likely to be used against the gun owner or his/her family/friends than to be used in self defense.

The best gun for home defense is the 12 gauge pump or 2X barreled shotgun, even the NRA recommends this over handguns.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Please provide a source for your assertion "Handguns are more likely to be
used against the gun owner or his/her family/friends than to be used in self defense."
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Here you go
Arthur Kellermann and Don Reay, "Protection or peril? An analysis of firearms related deaths in the home." (New Engl J Med 1986. 314: 1557-60.)

Yes, it is an older cite, but a valid one none the less. You can probably find it in your local library. Kellerman states that "for every case of self-protection homicide involving a firearm kept in the home, there were 1.3 accidental deaths, 4.6 criminal homicides, and 37 suicides involving firearms." I doubt that these figures have changed that much.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. That study has been refuted but apparently people still quote it. See
Is My Own Gun More Likely to be Used Against Me or My Family?

The National Academy of Sciences report “Firearms and Violence, A Critical Review” released 16 December 04 said:
QUOTE
Both Kellermann and Reay (1986) and Rushforth et al. (1974) compare fatalities caused by self-defense and other motivations. Both studies find that people using guns in self-defense account for a small fraction of fatalities in the home. Kellermann and Reay find that there were nearly 5 times as many homicides and 37 times as many suicides as perpetrators killed in self-defense. They go on to conclude, “The advisability of keeping a firearm in the home for protection must be questioned.” Rushforth et al. (1974) found similar results and drew similar conclusions.

Although the facts are in no doubt, the conclusions do not seem to follow. Certainly, effective defensive gun use need not ever lead the perpetrator to be wounded or killed. Rather, to assess the benefits of self-defense, one needs to measure crime and injury averted. The particular outcome of an offender is of little relevance. It might be, as Kleck (2001b) suggests, that the ratio of firearm-caused fatalities to fatalities averted because of defensive gun use is a more relevant comparison. Answering this question, however, requires researchers to address the fundamental counterfactual questions regarding the effects of both defensive and offensive uses of firearms that have been the subject of much of this report and have generally proved to be elusive. Simple death counts cannot answer these complex questions.
UNQUOTE

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. So in other words, the numbers for the Kellerman study are correct
But the conclusions drawn from those numbers are up for debate. That is a far cry from refuting the arguement friend. Apparently the numbers are solid friend, the methodology is solid, but the conclusions are still debated, most likely because otherwise the NRA and other would be forced to admit that a gun in the house is more of a danger than the threat of a criminal in the house. OK, people can debate this, but that doesn't mean the study has be "refuted" Stop trying to play word games OK.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. The conclusions are not acceptable. The report I cited is not online and
probably not yet available in libraries. Below is the full section from the report.

QUOTE
Firearms and Fatalities

A number of researchers have attempted to infer the defensive utility of firearms by examining the firearms deaths that occur in or near the victim’s home. Both Kellermann and Reay (1986) and Rushforth et al. (1974) compare fatalities caused by self-defense and other motivations. Both studies find that people using guns in self-defense account for a small fraction of fatalities in the home. Kellermann and Reay find that there were nearly 5 times as many homicides and 37 times as many suicides as perpetrators killed in self-defense. They go on to conclude, “The advisability of keeping a firearm in the home for protection must be questioned.” Rushforth et al. (1974) found similar results and drew similar conclusions.

Although the facts are in no doubt, the conclusions do not seem to follow. Certainly, effective defensive gun use need not ever lead the perpetrator to be wounded or killed. Rather, to assess the benefits of self-defense, one needs to measure crime and injury averted. The particular outcome of an offender is of little relevance. It might be, as Kleck (2001b) suggests, that the ratio of firearm-caused fatalities to fatalities averted because of defensive gun use is a more relevant comparison. Answering this question, how- ever, requires researchers to address the fundamental counterfactual questions regarding the effects of both defensive and offensive uses of firearms that have been the subject of much of this report and have generally proved to be elusive. Simple death counts cannot answer these complex questions.

Case-control sampling schemes matching homicide victims to non- victims with similar characteristics have also been used to infer whether owning a firearm is a risk factor for homicide and the utility of firearms for self-defense (see Chapter 7 for a discussion of the case-control methodology). Kellermann et al. (1993) found that persons who had a firearm in the home were at a greater risk for homicide in their home than persons who did not have a firearm (adjusted odds ratio of 2.7). Cummings et al. (1997) found that persons who purchased a handgun were at greater risk for homicide than their counterparts who had no such history (adjusted odds ratio of 2.2).

In light of these findings, Kellermann et al. (1993) ultimately conclude that owning firearms for personal protection is “counterproductive,” (p.1087) and that “people should be strongly discouraged from keeping guns in the home” (p. 1090). This conclusion rests on the implicit assumption that the decision to own a firearm is random or exogenous with respect to homicide in the home (after controlling for various observed factors, including whether a household member has been hurt in a fight, has been arrested, or has used illicit drugs). Cummings and his colleagues (1997) do not draw such strong causal conclusions, but instead simply describe the observed positive association between firearms and homicide.

In the committee’s view, the exogenous selection assumption and the resulting conclusions are not tenable. While these observed associations between firearms ownership and homicide may be of interest, they do little to reveal the impact of firearms on homicide or the utility of firearms for defense. As noted by the authors, even small degrees of misreporting on ownership by either the cases or the controls can create substantial biases in the estimated risk factors (see Kleck, 1997, for an illustration of these biases). A more fundamental inferential problem arises from the fact that ownership is not likely to be random with respect to homicide or other forms of victimization. To the contrary, the decision to own a firearm may be directly related to the likelihood of being victimized. People may, for instance, acquire firearms in response to specific or perceived threats, and owners may be more or less psychologically prone toward violence. Thus, while the observed associations may reflect a causal albeit unspecified path- way, they may also be entirely spurious. As Kellermann and his colleagues note (1993:1089), “it is possible that reverse causation accounted for some of the association we observed between gun ownership and homicide.”
UNQUOTE
(Source: pages 117-119 “Firearms And Violence A Critical Review” by the National Academy of Sciences)
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Sorry friend, but it sounds to me like the conclusions are at worst
Up in the air for debate. The source you are quoting from is continously using words like "can" and "may", certainly not definitives like "are" and "will". And even this source you're trying to use to refute Kellerman states that Kellerman's numbers are not in doubt, just the conclusions that can be drawn from them are debatable.

And yet more numbers seem to back up my position. Do you realize that fully fourteen percent of the police officers that are fatally shot are shot with their own weapon? And these are trained professionals, not amatuers or paranoids.

I'm including a link that has many more numbers for you to peruse,<http://endabuse.org/newsflash/index.php3?Search=Article&NewsFlashID=152> Some scary numbers that reenforce my original position.

You lone source doesn't refute these numbers, it even admits that those numbers are accurate. It simply wishes to put a pro-gun spin on the conclusions. This is a familiar tactic friend, one I suggest that you don't fall far. Rather, stick to the numbers, the facts, and draw your own conclusion.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. The Kellermann paper has been refuted and I gave two sources, one of
them was the National Academy of Sciences.

Goodbye :hi:

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. And yet neither source puts Kellerman's numbers in doubt
They just state that Kellerman's conclusions are open to debate. In fact both of your sources accept Kellerman's numbers. I also have given you a couple of other sources that expand and backup Kellerman's numbers, and you have yet to address either of them.

Simply stating that you've won and running off isn't a victory friend, no matter how much you think it is.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
81. Hey Madhound....
You heard about a reporter asking Kellerman about if his wife was attacked, how would he want her to deal with it, and he responded "with a .38 in her hand", right?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. Notice that the new conclusion
fails entirely to consider the possibility that the person using the gun might be in any way irresponisble...

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. So in other words the data was correct
and somebody wants to bitch about what it says.

"Certainly, effective defensive gun use need not ever lead the perpetrator to be wounded or killed. "
But in the real world, guns are often operated by irresponsible people who are impaired by any number of factors...including drink and drugs.
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. one big flaw in Kellerman's study
- he never ascertained if the firearms were legally owned.


make that two flaws:
- he never verified that the gun used was the one owned by the residents
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
61. Methodological problems in the Kellerman study
Edited on Tue Jan-04-05 08:31 PM by benEzra
Methodological problems in the Kellerman study:

Kellerman et al arrived at this figure by <1> ignoring the vast majority of defensive uses and <2> deceptively inflating the "killing a friend or family member" figures.

For example, Kellerman et al. excluded any defensive uses that did not result in the DEATH of the criminal. In other words, if a rapist breaks in, his intended victim retrieves a gun, and the rapist flees, it doesn't count. If she fires a warning shot and he flees, it doesn't count. If she shoots and hits him, but he survives, it doesn't count. If she shoots and kills him, and she knew who he was (i.e., stalker), it is counted as "shooting a friend or family member," as I understand it. This obviously stacks the statistics against defensive uses, particularly since Kleck et al have shown that in well over 90% (I think possibly >98%) of defensive gun uses, the criminal fled as soon as the intended victim produced a gun, and no shots were fired. (My father's "save" in the early 1970's was in this category.)

Kellerman also failed to state clearly that in nearly all of the cases in which the gun owner was murdered with a gun, it was the CRIMINAL'S gun; in other words, if the homeowner's gun was unloaded and locked up and a murderer broke in and killed the unarmed gun owner, it would have been counted in the "gun death involving friend or family member" category. It also included suicides by the gun owner, which other cross-cultural studies have shown is not significantly affected by gun access due to method shift. Finally, IIRC the original Kellerman study was conducted in an area where ownership of firearms by law-abiding citizens is something of a hassle, reducing the number of guns in households at low risk for murder (the control group), and he didn't many any allowance for underreporting of gun ownership in the control group.

Other studies such as the National Crime Victimization Survey have shown that intended crime victims who fight back with a gun are LESS likely to be injured than victims who use any other method of defense (including nonresistant compliance), and ALL of the injuries to gun-using intended victims occurred BEFORE the victim accessed the gun.

So the upshot is this: for competent, responsible individuals who take the time to become familiar with their firearm, the gun can provide a net safety benefit.
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Billy Ruffian Donating Member (672 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
62. You've got your facts wrong
Handguns are more likely to be used against the gun owner or his/her family/friends than to be used in self defense.

Cite? The Kellerman study that made the original '43 times' claim has been discredited through its poor methodology.

The best gun for home defense is the 12 gauge pump or 2X barreled shotgun, even the NRA recommends this over handguns.

There is no "best" home defense firearm. What may work well for one person may not work well for another. Even for one person, what may work well for one situation may not work well for another. I'm not certain that the NRA even MAKES a recommendation about what type of firearm is best for home defense.

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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
53. link it, mr. 5 posts
lets see those stats.

hundreds?

how many women are shot by their exes with handguns every year? thousands?
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #53
72. Ha! Mr. 5 post freeper couldn't get a nut!
That is the same old tired lie the stupid freeper nuts have been using for years. Not that I don't have a gun for my own personal protection however - it seems a natural thing to do in the rural areas :D
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. Most handgun deaths are suicides
Not pointless at all.

how many handguns are used in thwarting robberies or assaults every year? 10?

The real figure is unknown and unknowable, but the lowest official estimates are more than 100,000 times per year.

if you want to defend gun rights on constitutional grounds, fine. but i, for one, don't see any "well regulated militias" around my neighborhood.

I defend gun rights on libertarian grounds. I won't even consider supporting any gun control measure that prevents people with no criminal record, who haven't been adjudicated as mentally incompetent, are not under a restraining order, etc. from obtaining a gun of his or her choice. Nor would I accept any requirement to pay money for the "privilege" of keeping one's personal property.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
54. i said i agree with gun rights
Edited on Tue Jan-04-05 06:58 PM by maxsolomon
but i don't see part one of the constitutional clause in effect whatsoever in america. its just ignored. "a well regulated militia" is neccessary. where is it? is it the military? if its the military, what are those outside the military doing with unrestricted access to guns?

<The real figure is unknown and unknowable, but the lowest official estimates are more than 100,000 times per year.>

i call bullshit;

300,000,000 US citizens. 100,000 crimes stopped with guns every year? that's 1 out of every 3000 americans fighting off a gun crime every year. in a decade that means 1 out of every 300 americans defends themselves with a gun. bullshit. what are you including, crack dealers?

post your "lowest official estimate". at least i admit when i'm guessing.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. US Department of Justice estimate published May 1997
Edited on Tue Jan-04-05 07:30 PM by slackmaster
...i call bullshit;... ...post your "lowest official estimate". at least i admit when i'm guessing.

No prob'. Here you go:

"Private citizens sometimes use their guns to scare off trespassers and fend off assaults. Such defensive gun uses (DGUs) are sometimes invoked as a measure of the public benefits of private gun ownership. On the basis of National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) data, one would conclude that defensive uses are rare indeed, about 108,000 per year."

Source: http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles/165476.pdf

...but i don't see part one of the constitutional clause in effect whatsoever in america. its just ignored. "a well regulated militia" is neccessary. where is it? is it the military? if its the military, what are those outside the military doing with unrestricted access to guns?

I don't subscribe to any Second Amendment theory of the right to own guns. That line of discussion is never productive. My support for gun ownership is based on basic libertarian philosophy - Individual freedom is essential to our society. Any restrictions on ownership of guns or anything else must be based on a solid foundation of reason, not on fear or claims of "common sense" or what some other country is doing.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Those outside the military...
DON'T have unrestricted access to guns. The types of guns non-LEO civilians may own is strictly circumscribed by the National Firearms Act of 1934. There are also limits on WHO may own a gun (criminals, people subject to restraining orders, and the mentally incompetent are barred), and of course a whole boatload of regulations concerning where and how they may be possessed, used, and so on.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #54
83. Two words:
"right" and "people". NOT "privilege" and "state".

"that's 1 out of every 3000 americans fighting off a gun crime every year."

Huh? Wrong. That's 1 out of every 3000 americans fighting off a crime by using a gun every year. What you said doesn't include things like rape, strong-armed robbery, et cetera.

For 2003, the reported rate of violent crime was 475 per 100,000. That's the REPORTED rate according to the UCR, the true figure is far higher (for example, forcible rape is, as I'm sure you know, grossly underreported). Total number just over 1,380,000. And that's JUST murder, forcible rape, robbery, and ag. assault. So when well over 1 out of every 300 Americans is either robbed, seriously assaulted, raped, or murdered every year, 1 out of every 3,000 using a gun to defend themselves isn't even remotely out of line.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
52. Guns don't kill people... bullets do
It's a hot-topic issue of course and one that causes divisions within our party.

For my own part, I'd like to see effective and efficient regulation of the 2nd Amendment as I would with the 1st and 3rd and up. That beng said....

I ask questions before I go to someone's house for a visit, a game of poker or to watch football... "Are there any firearms in the house?" If the answer is yes, I simply don't go.

If my friends want to go camping, I'll go... if there are no firearms.

I simply do not want to be around a fire arm and take personal precautions not to.

For the most part, I don't like to be around gun-owners in much the same way that many people here don't like to be around Conservatives (I'm not), Christians (I am) or insert-favorite-philosophy-to-villify-here.

In the words of Steve Martin, "Guns don't kill people... bullets do"
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #52
84. In that case, if you ever get burglarized, don't call 911...
or people with guns will show up at your house....
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Sheesh....
There's quite a difference between law enforcement the average Joe off the streets in my opinion.

Actually, if my house is burglarized, I will call 911. I simply didn't write down in my previous post *every* particular qualifier that would pre-empt my normal routines. If I did that, most of my posts would be three or four pages (and still incomplete) of "except in the case of", or "however, if *this* particular thing happened...".

It would be tedious if we did that on every post and every reply. Of course I realize there are extenuating circumstances that happen in every aspect of life... should I make a list of them and paste it into every damned post I make... or could we simply use a little common sense.

Sheesh.... :eyes:


"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will accidental shoot their family members..." (Ya gotta love Steve Martin)
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. You're right, there is a difference...
your average cop fires his gun once a year, when it's time to qualify (the standard is 25 rounds). Your average gun nut shoots many times that many rounds in training each year.

I can tell you've never worked with or been a cop....
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. Give it a rest, fella.
You are aware of the adage, "All other things being equal...", yes? Or maybe, "But there are exceptions..."

I suppose I'll get a three or four page list of "Pre-Qualifiers For All Things" the next time I run into you in a thread.

Nope- not a cop, and never worked with 'em in my life. I suppose my entire life is now one blazing advertisement of hypocrisy because I'd call 9-11 in an emergency (but there are exceptions...) yet won't go to a gun-owners house to play poker (all other things being equal...). Oh, the humanity!

:eyes:
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. Nah, I could tell you had no real experience dealing with cops....
because you seem to assume that they're somehow more competent with their weapons than John Q. Public.

Trust me, they aren't.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. I'm still not sure what your point is....
O-kay... I'll make random phone calls to some guy in the white pages (all other things being equal) rather than call Law Enforcement if my house is burglarized (however, there are exceptions...).

I do however, assume that Law Enforcment is more competent in and trained to deal with emergencies than John Q. Public (should I list the exceptions...?).

I'm sure you have a point (without listing all possible exegencies), but I just don't see it right now. I doubt you'll ever have me over for poker so I'm not sure where you're going with all this....
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. You act...
as though the fact that the police have badges is indicative of a greater knowledge of and experience with firearms than your average gun owner. This is emphatically NOT the case in my experience. And I've had a LOT of experience with both regular gun owners and cops.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. Let. It. Go.
Specifically how do I "act" that way? Because I believe that law-enforcement has greater knowledge (piratical and theoretical) of emergency response?

I *do* assume that police have a greater knowledge of emergency procedures, and I'm confident in that belief. Do you actually think I should call a gun-owner at random from the white-pages rather than the police if I return and find my home burglarized? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way...)

Will you let out a resounding trumpet of success if I say that I'll go to a pal's house regardless of whether he owns a firearm or not? ("Whoo-hoo! Another internet victory! This anonymous guy that I don't know will start going to the homes of gun-owners! Triumph! Success! Chalk one up for Our side!").

What Absolute Bad do my habits have?

Jeez, man. Let. It. Go. I'm not going to change my habits of who I do and do not visit on a regular basis because you believe that, "This is emphatically NOT the case in my experience".

Overall, I assume I'm safer because I don't go the the homes of gun-owners (as a rule of thumb... lest you assume another hypothetical that I failed to pre-qualify to your satisfaction). Big deal... whether I'm right or wrong- Big Frikkin' Deal!

Just.... Let. It Go.

Thanks :)



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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
79. Defensive gun uses number....
between 70,000 at the low end and 2,500,000 at the high end. Nobody knows how many there are exactly (since most do not involve a shot being fired, most are not reported) but odds are excellent that it's somewhere between the two extremes in the literature.

People keep talking about the second amendment and "well regulated militias" kept by the state. The problem with seeing it as a privilege of the states is that the laguage is that it's a "right", not a privilege, and it belongs to the "people", not the States. The Founding Fathers understood the difference....see the 10th Amendment for proof of that.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
82. Well said, maxsolomon
Your post went right to the heart of this dreadful situation. Just the other day in our state, a police officer was killed by a gun nut who had over 30 weapons in his house.

The officer was wearing his vest, but it didn't do him any good because the bastard shot him with an "assault-type rifle" of the sort that the NRA insists we MUST be able to buy to Preserve Our Freedom and Protect Our Rights and Defend Our Families Against Them Godless Ayrabs and Keep The Libruls From Making Us Let Them Homos Get Married And Take OverThe Country While They Drain Our Precious Bodily Fluids.

This officer's blood is on the hands of the NRA and all the other gun nuts out there, and I hope they enjoy the honor.

Redstone

PS: For me, it only took getting shot but once to take all the romance & excitement out of firearms.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. Because some gun owners are stone-stupid and paranoid
and will say it no matter what.

The NRA is going to say that until it's blue in the face, because it is essentially a Republican party propaganda vehicle.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
65. Depends on what guns one owns...
Edited on Tue Jan-04-05 09:28 PM by benEzra
If you own a 15-round handgun, or a rifle with a protruding handgrip, Feinstein/Schumer/et al have expressly said they want to take them from you if they possibly can.

It is true that (for example) bolt-action deer rifles are not in danger from the prohibitionists in most jurisdictions. But most gun owners are nonhunters, and even hunters often own nonhunting guns as well. So there's the rub. And that's how the handful of prohibitionists give the party a bad name among gun owners...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. 60%, no gun
More people say a gun in the home makes it a more dangerous place. And buried in those exit polls released, people who don't own guns are more likely to vote Democratic and support gun regulation. So while some Democrats throw tizzy fits over gun policy, the numbers are actually in favor of the current gun platform. It's just another example of Democrats buying into right wing propaganda and further splintering the party as a result. Talk about spineless.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Not to argue, but ......
..... just what *is* "the current gun platform"?

That's not a challenge to what you said. I honestly can't say I know what it is.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Current Dem platform is
Democratic Party Platform 2004
QUOTE
We will protect Americans' Second Amendment right to own firearms, and we will keep guns out of the hands of criminals and terrorists by fighting gun crime, reauthorizing the assault weapons ban, and closing the gun show loophole, as President Bush proposed and failed to do.
UNQUOTE
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
60. Just to clarify...
Edited on Tue Jan-04-05 08:26 PM by benEzra
the "assault weapons ban" banned all firearms holding over 10 rounds, with a few inconsequential exceptions, and all self-loading firearms with two or more listed features (e.g., a rifle with the stock shaped a certain way). That was a pretty sweeping ban.

One thing it did NOT cover was actual military-type weapons...
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. It didn't actually ban any items per se
All detachable magazines with capacity over 10 rounds, and all firearms that got classified as "AWs", were grandfathered and fully transferrable under federal law. The AWB was a 10-year moratorium on manufacturing them.

One thing it did NOT cover was actual military-type weapons...

Exactly right. A ban on actual military weapons would cover a lot of curios, relics, and antiques. Most of the firearms formerly known as "assault weapons" were patterned after military weapons but made semiautomatic only, given National Firearms Act-compliant (length) barrels, etc. They were designed to fill a market demand for non-NFA versions of military weapons.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. "More people say a gun in the home makes it a more dangerous place."
Which is an interesting bit of information about public opinion, but what people say and what the actual state of affairs is can easily be two different things.

We know from the 2004 election that cities are dem strongholds; cities tend to have tougher gun regulation (more regulations, in general), and less of a use for guns overall. I suspect that repubs that live in cities have gun ownership fairly similar to that of dems, but that's just a suspicion.
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
46. well, I'd say about 25% are barred from owning a gun
Edited on Tue Jan-04-05 04:10 PM by Romulus
due to criminal background, restraining orders, etc., or they live in cities where they aren't allowed to own firearms (DC, Chicago), or they live where it is really difficult to own firearms (NYC, all of NJ, etc.).

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/bcft03pr.htm
The Federal Gun Control Act, 18 U.S.C. § 922, prohibits the transfer of a firearm to a person who:

Is under indictment for or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year.
Is a fugitive from justice.
Is an unlawful user or is addicted to any controlled substance.
Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution.
Is an illegal alien or has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa.
Was discharged from the U.S. military service under dishonorable conditions.
Has renounced U.S. citizenship.
Is subject to a court order restraining him or her from harassing, stalking or threatening an intimate partner or child.
Has been convicted in any court of a felony or misdemeanor crime of domestic violence."



http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crs.htm

"A criminal history record describes any arrests and subsequent dispositions attributable to an individual . . .

Over 64 million criminal history records were in the criminal history files of the State criminal history repositories. (An individual offender may have records in several States.)"


Assuming one in four "criminal records" is a dupe, that would be 48 million people with criminal records. 300mil/48 mil = ~15% ineligible to own (one in six) = 85% max eligible to own.

Even discounting my "difficult to own" explaination, and the number of people with restraining orders or other listed disqualifying factors, that means at least half of the max base expected eligible population owns a firearm.


So, the "60% no gun" meme needs some retooling to really be an accurate statement.
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Not that difficult to own a gun in NJ at all...
...if you're a homeowner, no criminal or psychiatric record, you can get a permit fairly easily. This is not a carry permit, merely to own and have one in your home.

I've had one for years, and once you are licensed to own one...getting a second is even easier.
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #47
74. what if you *rent*? (n/t)
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Couldn't say...never been a renter in NJ
but my gut says "not so likely"
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. Two reports found no proof that gun-control laws reduce violent crime.
Both the National Academy of Sciences report “Firearms and Violence, A Critical Review” released 16 December 04 and CDC’s report “First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence” 3 Oct 03 say there is no evidence that gun-control laws reduce violent crime.

See current discussion at the DU thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=96850&mesg_id=96850&page=
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
36. Actually....
The National Academy of Sciences report only says that there is not enough data to conclude anything....mostly because the NRA has blocked proposals for a national database.

And CDC has been forbidden by law to report anything favorable to gun control...
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. wow, whites are more likely than non-whites to own a gun?
I never would have guessed. :eyes:


They're also more likely to cross over to the other side of the street when a dark-skinned person is walking towards them.
More likely to move away to a different neighborhood if too many minorities move in. More likely to live in gated communities away from the rest of humanity.

What are white people so afraid of?
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Karma?
Just a guess :)
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. best. answer. ever. n/t
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
92. Why is that???
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 06:40 PM by DoNotRefill
Could it be because most of the gun control laws out there DELIBERATELY TARGET MINORITIES AND THE POOR??????

Look at the places with the highest concentration of minorities. Then look at where the gun control laws are the strictest. You'll find some interesting trends....like the larger the percentage of minorities there, the stricter the gun control laws tend to be.

What percentage of the total population do minorities comprise in Washington DC and Detroit? What places have the strictest gun control laws there?

Here's something you may NOT know. In the 1940's, the Supreme Court of Florida ruled that gun control laws DID NOT APPLY TO WHITES, BECAUSE THE LEGISLATIVE INTENT OF GUN CONTROL LAWS WAS ONLY TO DISARM MINORITIES. No Shit. They actually SAID that.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
21. Many own guns because of insecurity . .
. . they think they're going to drive into a riot or something some day and they may need a gun to save their life - or their children's life.

I know the odds are infinitesimal - but TV programs (like the great CSI series that I'm addicted to) continually barrage us with the terrible things that people do out there. And real TV images of a guy being pulled out of his truck and beaten to death with a brick by an angry mob make indelible impressions. The news every nite has stories of innocent people being attacked by crazy people or muggers or whatever. We do live in a very violent world. All that makes people wonder if they shouldn't have a gun in the car - just in case.

Our approach to guns should be the same as abortion - don't outlaw guns but make it rare and unnecessary to want to own one for security.

I know no-one wants to outlaw guns anyway - just make sure they don't get into the wrong hands. But "making gun ownership for security rare and unnecessary" is a good meme that the right would have a hard time opposing. It's also a good goal for a peaceful and progressive society to reach for IMO.

The problem is that reaching that goal would require a completely different approach to our society - how we treat minorities generally, huge education funding changes, sensible drug and immigration laws - and many other things that we should have done long ago.

I am worried that, like Twain's frog in the pot of boiling water, we don't really understand how far we have moved away from the possibility of a sensible and sane approach to social problems - thanks to the rise of the Republican and Christian right.

</end of rant>

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oneold1-4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. FYI
Since the medical profession kills more people in this country than guns, I will try to stay as healthy as possible and keep my guns!
The first rule of using a gun is if you point it, pull the trigger!
A "threat" of using force of any kind is signing your own injury or death warrant!
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
49. Damn straight!
If you're going to own a gun, you must face the possibility of using it. If you can't face that, don't buy a gun. There's a fair amount of self-awareness and reflection required before you make a decision to be a gun owner, or there should be; any other course is irresponsible.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
41. Where did you get that information?
. . they think they're going to drive into a riot or something some day and they may need a gun to save their life - or their children's life....

Cite, please.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. I got that information from real life . .
. . discussions with white middle-class Christian Americans, like those in my spouse's family.

They really have a palpable fear, these days especially. Whether it is irrational or not, or is directed at the wrong enemy, is not the point.

Fear is one of the strongest human emotions and is a very strong motivator. Why else would 1/2 of Americans vote against America's and their own best interest?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. Ah, so it's not based on any actual controlled research
Just your perception based on speaking with a few people, or a few dozen. IMO you are painting with a broad brush based on limited exposure to people. I personally know many people who own guns, a small minority of whom keep one handy for self-defense, and it has nothing to do with the kind of fear of which you wrote.

Fear is one of the strongest human emotions and is a very strong motivator. Why else would 1/2 of Americans vote against America's and their own best interest?

The people who voted that way thought they were doing the right thing. They were misinformed, not fearful. Nobody intentionally votes against his or her own best interests.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. You operate from an incorrect model . .
. . of human nature. Americans were not misinformed. To say that implies that if they just had better information they would have made a different decision.

Those who voted for Bush had the same information you and I had. I am certain that is true of my spouse's family and they are quite average Republicans.

Instead, the Bush administration skillfully used fear of terrorists, fear of homosexuals, etc. They skillfully convinced them that liberals would not protect them. In fact they convinced them that liberals would expose them to more danger and make them less safe.

People buy neither cars nor politicians based on a logical examination of the pros and cons. When it comes time to sign on the dotted line, they buy the product that makes them feel the best about themselves.

I can't blame you for believing otherwise - as most liberals believe as you do, just as John Kerry's campaign apparently did - that it's just a matter of education - that if the media would just tell the truth we'd win - that people wouldn't vote against their best interests.

I consider that hopelessly misguided. All Americans knew this administration would destroy social security, they knew this administration would wreck the environment, they knew it would hand safety and workers rights over to the corporations.

They set all that and much more aside because they knew that at least we'd kill a lot more brown-skinned non-Christian foreigners under Bush and no more fucking gays would be getting married around here.

That is the success that comes from preying on people's fears.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Not one person has told me they voted for Bush because of those things
Edited on Tue Jan-04-05 10:00 PM by slackmaster
Instead, the Bush administration skillfully used fear of terrorists, fear of homosexuals, etc.

Everyone who has told me why he or she voted for Bush basically said they wanted the more pro-business candidate, that Kerry is a good man but too liberal for their tastes, or because it was a toss-up they picked the incumbent. A few Bush voters I know are homosexuals BTW. Several of them are brown-skinned - Hispanic, Pacific Islander, Filipino, and Native American right off the top of my head. (As I'm sure you know, military and former military people and their families tend to vote GOP.)

All Americans knew this administration would destroy social security...

Sorry to disagree, but only Congress has the power to do that. :eyes:

I do agree with you that SOME Bush voters were motivated by negative emotions like hatred, racism, or fear; but the picture is a lot more complex than that. Maybe it's because I don't socialize with religious conservatives, but I don't know anyone who picked Bush because of gay marriage. Gun control, sure.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Of course they say that . .
Do you think they'd say that they really love the idea of innocent non-Christian brown people getting blown away by our military (even if they had nothing to do with 9/11 but they are just like those who did and might even know them)

. . and do you really think they'll tell you that they hate gays and are afraid that gays will recruit their children into their "lifestyle" and take over society and make everyone accept homosexuality as "normal"?

Do you have any idea how actual people really behave?

The key word is "emotionally". The wrong word is "intelligently".
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. As I said, it must be the crowd I hang out with
Edited on Tue Jan-04-05 11:01 PM by slackmaster
I don't associate with bigots, racists, homophobes, etc. As soon as I get an inkling that someone belongs to one of those groups I move along.

. . and do you really think they'll tell you that they hate gays and are afraid that gays will recruit their children into their "lifestyle" and take over society and make everyone accept homosexuality as "normal"?

I have met many people who say things like that, but I don't make them my friends.

Do you have any idea how actual people really behave?

Sure do. I have a degree in Psychology, almost 25 years in the working world, and just a few weeks shy of 47 total years interacting with them.

The key word is "emotionally". The wrong word is "intelligently".

I've found that most people behave in a mixture of those two modes, some more on one side or the other.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #69
90. Speaking of gays in a gun thread...
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
87. Unfortunately, "the wrong hands" is a code-word....
for "african-american hands".

Gun control has historically been used to keep minorities from having teh ability to resist both the government and groups like the Klan. In fact, the LAST federal Jim Crow law still on the books is the National Firearms Act of 1934...NO other federal law makes people get their chief of police "sign off" on a tax document before they can exercise their civil rights...but the NFA does. Oh, and the chief of police can absolutely refuse to sign off for no reason at all, and there's nothing that can be done about it.
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
95. "Our approach to guns should be the same as abortion "??
So we should support a waiting period on abortion? We should allow local municipalities to be able to ban certain types of abortions? We should allow states to have a registry of people who have had abortions? We should prevent juveniles from having abortions unless their parents sign for them?? If you have a history of mental health problems we should prohibit you from having an abortion??

I think we already have too much regulation on the individual on both of these issues. I know tons of people (including me) who have guns and none have ever shot anyone.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. no one is saying shit about hunting rifles!
own 20,000 rifles, i don't give a fuck.

the issue is HANDguns & the havoc their irresponsible use wreaks on american society.

i have never needed a gun, & no urbanite i have ever known has ever needed a gun.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Does it really matter...
... who needs a gun?

When you wish to abridge someone's rights you need to have a more compelling case than "s/he doesn't need it!".

Maybe I'll come to your house and figure out for you just what you don't need.


Get a clue folks, this is about RIGHTS. You either believe in them or you do not. Don't be like a Repug and try to have it both ways.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #55
64. 80% of gun owners are nonhunters...
and we would like to be able to keep ours, thanks. :)

FWIW, my favorite firearm is a rifle, not a handgun, but I'm not sure how you'd feel about it since it's rather unconventional looking...


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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. My favorite rifle is so unconventional looking I dare not post a picture
Some people here would be terrified.

:scared:
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
89. Can you explain something to me?
You're pissed off about handguns. OK. Let's say somebody owns 20,000 handguns, OK? They still only have TWO FREAKING HANDS, yes????? So what does it matter if they've got 20,000 handguns? Or would they be able to shoot with their toes? And if they shoot with their toes, wouldn't it be "footguns" instead of "handguns"?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gaia_gardener Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
73. I think they need to break that up by handgun, rifle and shotgun
I know lots of people that own multiple guns, none of them handguns. They own deer rifles, duck hunting guns (shotguns?), their grandfather's gun, a blackpowder gun or two, etc. They are avid hunters who hunt because they need the food to live (which is becoming an issue with the deer wasting disease taking over). These are people that eat squirrel and rabbit, often. People that have eaten possum and raccoon. People who can butcher a deer at home (I've seen deer strung up from trees in front yards) and sometimes hunt out of season because they have no money or food.
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MNBiker Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
76. The number changes if street gangs are included....
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Wallew Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
77. Raging Against Self Defense by JPFO by Sarah Thompson, MD
Raging Against Self Defense

Permission is granted to distribute this article in its entirety, so long as full copyright information and full contact information is given for JPFO.

Copyright © 2000 Sarah Thompson, MD
Published by Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
P.O. Box 270143
Hartford, WI 53027
Phone (262) 673-9745

www.jpfo.org



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Raging Against Self Defense:
A Psychiatrist Examines The Anti-Gun Mentality
By Sarah Thompson, M.D.

[email protected]


"You don't need to have a gun; the police will protect you."

"If people carry guns, there will be murders over parking spaces and neighborhood basketball games."

"I'm a pacifist. Enlightened, spiritually aware people shouldn't own guns."

"I'd rather be raped than have some redneck militia type try to rescue me."
How often have you heard these statements from misguided advocates of victim disarmament, or even woefully uninformed relatives and neighbors? Why do people cling so tightly to these beliefs, in the face of incontrovertible evidence that they are wrong? Why do they get so furiously angry when gun owners point out that their arguments are factually and logically incorrect?

How can you communicate with these people who seem to be out of touch with reality and rational thought?

One approach to help you deal with anti-gun people is to understand their psychological processes. Once you understand why these people behave so irrationally, you can communicate more effectively with them.


Defense Mechanisms
Projection

About a year ago I received an e-mail from a member of a local Jewish organization. The author, who chose to remain anonymous, insisted that people have no right to carry firearms because he didn't want to be murdered if one of his neighbors had a "bad day". (I don't know that this person is a "he", but I'm assuming so for the sake of simplicity.) I responded by asking him why he thought his neighbors wanted to murder him, and, of course, got no response. The truth is that he's statistically more likely to be murdered by a neighbor who doesn't legally carry a firearm1 and more likely to be shot accidentally by a law enforcement officer.1

How does my correspondent "know" that his neighbors would murder him if they had guns? He doesn't. What he was really saying was that if he had a gun, he might murder his neighbors if he had a bad day, or if they took his parking space, or played their stereos too loud. This is an example of what mental health professionals call projection – unconsciously projecting one's own unacceptable feelings onto other people, so that one doesn't have to own them.3 In some cases, the intolerable feelings are projected not onto a person, but onto an inanimate object, such as a gun,4 so that the projector believes the gun itself will murder him.

Projection is a defense mechanism. Defense mechanisms are unconscious psychological mechanisms that protect us from feelings that we cannot consciously accept.5 They operate without our awareness, so that we don't have to deal consciously with "forbidden" feelings and impulses. Thus, if you asked my e-mail correspondent if he really wanted to murder his neighbors, he would vehemently deny it, and insist that other people want to kill him.

Projection is a particularly insidious defense mechanism, because it not only prevents a person from dealing with his own feelings, it also creates a world where he perceives everyone else as directing his own hostile feelings back at him.6

All people have violent, and even homicidal, impulses. For example, it's common to hear people say "I'd like to kill my boss", or "If you do that one more time I'm going to kill you." They don't actually mean that they're going to, or even would, kill anyone; they're simply acknowledging anger and frustration. All of us suffer from fear and feelings of helplessness and vulnerability. Most people can acknowledge feelings of rage, fear, frustration, jealousy, etc. without having to act on them in inappropriate and destructive ways.

Some people, however, are unable consciously to admit that they have such "unacceptable" emotions. They may have higher than average levels of rage, frustration, or fear. Perhaps they fear that if they acknowledge the hostile feelings, they will lose control and really will hurt someone. They may believe that "good people" never have such feelings, when in fact all people have them.

This is especially true now that education "experts" commonly prohibit children from expressing negative emotions or aggression. Instead of learning that such emotions are normal, but that destructive behavior needs to be controlled, children now learn that feelings of anger are evil, dangerous and subject to severe punishment.7To protect themselves from "being bad", they are forced to use defense mechanisms to avoid owning their own normal emotions. Unfortunately, using such defense mechanisms inappropriately can endanger their mental health; children need to learn how to deal appropriately with reality, not how to avoid it.8

(This discussion of psychological mechanisms applies to the average person who is uninformed, or misinformed, about firearms and self-defense. It does not apply to the anti- gun ideologue. Fanatics like Charles Schumer know the facts about firearms, and advocate victim disarmament consciously and willfully in order to gain political power. This psychological analysis does not apply to them.)

Denial

Another defense mechanism commonly utilized by supporters of gun control is denial. Denial is simply refusing to accept the reality of a given situation.9 For example, consider a woman whose husband starts coming home late, has strange perfume on his clothes, and starts charging flowers and jewelry on his credit card. She may get extremely angry at a well-meaning friend who suggests that her husband is having an affair. The reality is obvious, but the wronged wife is so threatened by her husband's infidelity that she is unable to accept it, and so denies its existence.

Anti-gun people do the same thing. It's obvious that we live in a dangerous society, where criminals attack innocent people. Just about everyone has been, or knows someone who has been, victimized. It's equally obvious that law enforcement can't protect everyone everywhere 24 hours a day. Extensive scholarly research demonstrates that the police have no legal duty to protect you10 and that firearm ownership is the most effective way to protect yourself and your family.11 There is irrefutable evidence that victim disarmament nearly always precedes genocide.12 Nonetheless, the anti-gun folks insist, despite all evidence to the contrary, that "the police will protect you", "this is a safe neighborhood" and "it can't happen here", where "it" is everything from mugging to mass murder.

Anti-gun people who refuse to accept the reality of the proven and very serious dangers of civilian disarmament are using denial to protect themselves from the anxiety of feeling helpless and vulnerable. Likewise, gun owners who insist that "the government will never confiscate my guns" are also using denial to protect themselves from the anxiety of contemplating being forcibly disarmed and rendered helpless and vulnerable.

Reaction Formation

Reaction formation is yet another defense mechanism common among the anti-gun folks. Reaction formation occurs when a person's mind turns an unacceptable feeling or desire into its complete opposite.13 For example, a child who is jealous of a sibling may exhibit excessive love and devotion for the hated brother or sister.

Likewise, a person who harbors murderous rage toward his fellow humans may claim to be a devoted pacifist and refuse to eat meat or even kill a cockroach.14 Often such people take refuge in various spiritual disciplines and believe that they are "superior" to "less civilized" folks who engage in "violent behavior" such as hunting, or even target shooting. They may devote themselves to "animal welfare" organizations that proclaim that the rights of animals take precedence over the rights of people.15 This not only allows the angry person to avoid dealing with his rage, it allows him actually to harm the people he hates without having to know he hates them.

This is not meant to disparage the many wonderful people who are pacifists, spiritually inclined, vegetarian, or who support animal welfare. The key issue is not the belief itself, but rather the way in which the person experiences and lives his beliefs. Sincere practitioners seek to improve themselves, or to be helpful in a gentle, respectful fashion. They work to persuade others peacefully by setting an example of what they believe to be correct behavior. Sincere pacifists generally exhibit good will towards others, even towards persons with whom they might disagree on various issues.

Contrast the sincere pacifist or animal lover with the strident, angry person who wants to ban meat and who believes murdering hunters is justified in order to "save the animals" – or the person who wants to outlaw self- defense and believes innocent people have the obligation to be raped and murdered for the good of society. For example, noted feminist Betty Friedan said "that lethal violence even in self defense only engenders more violence."16 The truly spiritual, pacifist person refrains from forcing others to do what he believes, and is generally driven by positive emotions, while the angry person finds "socially acceptable" ways to harm, abuse, or even kill, his fellow man.

In the case of anti-gun people, reaction formation keeps any knowledge of their hatred for their fellow humans out of consciousness, while allowing them to feel superior to "violent gun owners". At the same time, it also allows them to cause serious harm, and even loss of life, to others by denying them the tools necessary to defend themselves. This makes reaction formation very attractive from a psychological point of view, and therefore very difficult to counteract.


Defense Mechanisms Are Not Mental Illnesses
Defense mechanisms are normal. All of us use them to some extent, and their use does not imply mental illness. Advocates of victim disarmament may be misguided or uninformed, they may be stupid, or they may be consciously intent on evil, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are "mentally ill".

Some defense mechanisms, however, are healthier than others. A safe general rule is that a defense is healthy if it helps you to function better in your personal and professional life, and unhealthy if it interferes with your life, your relationships, or the well-being of others. Young children utilize projection and denial much more commonly than do healthy adults. On the other hand, "if projection is used as a defense mechanism to a very great extent in adult life, the user's perception of external reality will be seriously distorted."17

Defense mechanisms are also frequently combined, so that an anti-gun person may use several defense mechanisms simultaneously. For example, my unfortunate correspondent uses projection to create a world in which all his neighbors want to murder him. As a result, he becomes more angry and fearful, and needs to employ even more defense mechanisms to cope. So he uses projection to attribute his own rage to others, he uses denial that there is any danger to protect himself from a world where he believes he is helpless and everyone wants to murder him, and he uses reaction formation to try to control everyone else's life because his own is so horribly out of control.

Also, it's important to remember that not all anti-gun beliefs are the result of defense mechanisms. Some people suffer from gun phobia18, an excessive and completely irrational fear of firearms, usually caused by the anti-gun conditioning they've been subjected to by the media, politicians, so-called "educators," and others. In some cases, gun phobia is caused by an authentic bad experience associated with a firearm. But with all due respect to Col. Jeff Cooper, who coined the term "hoplophobia" to describe anti-gun people, most anti-gun people do not have true phobias. Interestingly, a person with a true phobia of guns realizes his fear is excessive or unreasonable,19 something most anti-gun folks will never admit.

Defense mechanisms distort reality

Because defense mechanisms distort reality in order to avoid unpleasant emotions, the person who uses them has an impaired ability to recognize and accept reality. This explains why my e-mail correspondent and many other anti-gun people persist in believing that their neighbors and co- workers will become mass murderers if allowed to own firearms.

People who legally carry concealed firearms are actually less violent and less prone to criminal activity of all kinds than is the general population.20 A person who has a clean record, has passed an FBI background check, undergone firearms training, and spent several hundred dollars to get a permit and a firearm, is highly unlikely to choose to murder a neighbor. Doing so would result in his facing a police manhunt, a trial, prison, possibly capital punishment, and the destruction of his family, job, and reputation. Obviously it would make no sense for such a person to shoot a neighbor - except in self-defense. Equally obviously, the anti-gun person who believes that malicious shootings by ordinary gun owners are likely to occur is not in touch with reality.21


The Common Thread: Rage
In my experience, the common thread in anti-gun people is rage. Either anti-gun people harbor more rage than others, or they're less able to cope with it appropriately. Because they can't handle their own feelings of rage, they are forced to use defense mechanisms in an unhealthy manner. Because they wrongly perceive others as seeking to harm them, they advocate the disarmament of ordinary people who have no desire to harm anyone. So why do anti-gun people have so much rage and why are they unable to deal with it in appropriate ways? Consider for a moment that the largest and most hysterical anti-gun groups include disproportionately large numbers of women, African- Americans and Jews. And virtually all of the organizations that claim to speak for these "oppressed people" are stridently anti-gun. Not coincidentally, among Jews, Blacks and women there are many "professional victims" who have little sense of identity outside of their victimhood.

Identity as Victim

If I were to summarize this article in three sentences, they would be:


(1) People who identify themselves as "victims" harbor excessive amounts of rage at other people, whom they perceive as "not victims."
(2) In order psychologically to deal with this rage, these "victims" utilize defense mechanisms that enable them to harm others in socially acceptable ways, without accepting responsibility or suffering guilt, and without having to give up their status as "victims."

(3) Gun owners are frequently the targets of professional victims because gun owners are willing and able to prevent their own victimization.

Thus the concept of "identity as victim" is essential. How and why do members of some groups choose to identify themselves as victims and teach their children to do the same? While it's true that women, Jews, and African- Americans have historically been victimized, they now participate in American society on an equal basis. And other groups, most notably Asian-Americans, have been equally victimized, and yet have transcended the "eternal victim" mentality.

Why, for example, would a 6'10" NBA player who makes $10 million a year see himself as a "victim"? Why would a successful, respected, wealthy, Jewish physician regard himself as a "victim"? Conversely, why might a wheelchair bound woman who lives on government disability NOT regard herself as a victim?

I would argue it's because the basketball player and the physician believe that their identities are dependent on being victims – not because they have actually been victimized, but because they're members of groups that claim victim status. Conversely, the disabled woman was probably raised to believe that she is responsible for her own success or failure.

In fact, many people who have been victims of actual violent crime, or who have survived war or civil strife, support the right of self-defense. The old saying is often correct: "a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged."

Special Treatment and Misleading Leaders

Two reasons for these groups to insist on "victim" status seem likely. First, by claiming victim status, members of these groups can demand (and get) special treatment through quotas, affirmative action, reparations, and other preferential treatment programs.

Second, these people have been indoctrinated to believe that there is no alternative to remaining a victim forever. Their leaders remind them constantly that they are mistreated in every imaginable way (most of them imaginary!), attribute every one of life's misfortunes to "racism" or "sexism" or "hate crimes", and dream up ever more complex schemes for special treatment and favors.22 These leaders are the ones who preach that the entire Black experience is slavery and racism, or that Jewish history before and after the Holocaust is irrelevant,23 or that happily married women are really victims of sexual slavery.24

Likewise, the NAACP is suing firearms manufacturers to put them out of business,25 and is especially opposed to the inexpensive pistols that enable the poor to defend themselves in gang-ridden inner cities. The Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) proposed evicting anyone who dares to keep a tool of self-defense in any of its crime-infested housing projects. Jewish leaders, especially those in the politically correct "Reform" branch, preach that gun control is "a solemn religious obligation",26 contrary to the teachings of their sacred scriptures and their own history.27 Law enforcement agencies falsely teach women that they are safest if they don't resist rapists and robbers,28 while women's organizations advocate gun control, thus rendering women and their children defenseless.

Victimhood is good business for organizations that foster victim status. As victims, the members depend upon the organization to protect them, and the organization in turn relies on members for funding and political power. In the interest of self-preservation, these organizations work hard at preserving hatred and bigotry and at keeping their members defenseless – and therefore dependent.

Anti-gun groups love victims!

From my observations, pro-victimhood is a feature of all of the anti-gun special interest groups, not just the ones mentioned here. Every organization that supports gun control apparently wants its members to be helpless, terrified and totally dependent on someone else to control every aspect of their lives. It doesn't matter whether it's a religious, racial, ethnic, political, social, or charitable group. From Handgun Control, Inc. to the Anti- Defamation League to the Million Mom March, they all want you to live in fear. In this scheme, soccer moms are "victims" just as much as are inner-city minorities.

If these organizations truly cared about the people for whom they claim to speak, they would encourage safe and responsible firearms ownership. They would help people to learn how to defend themselves and their families so that they wouldn't have to live in fear. They would tell everyone that one of the wonderful things about being an American is that you have the right to keep and bear arms, the right to defend yourself, and how these rights preserve the right to be free.

The psychological price of being a victim

In our current society, victimhood has many perceived benefits, but there are some serious drawbacks. Victims tend to see the world as a scary and threatening place. They believe that others treat them differently, unfairly, and even maliciously – and that they are helpless to do anything about it. This belief, that they are being mistreated and are helpless to resist, generates tremendous rage, and often, serious depression.

But for victims to show rage openly can be dangerous, if not outright suicidal. For example, a battered woman who screams at or hits her attacker may provoke worse beatings or even her own murder. And a person who successfully defends himself loses his status as "victim." For someone whose entire identity is dependent on being a victim, the loss of victim status is just as threatening as loss of life.

So, unable psychologically to cope with such rage, people who view themselves as victims: (1) use defense mechanisms to displace it into irrational beliefs about neighbors killing each other, and the infallibility of police protection, and (2) attempt to regain control by controlling gun owners, whom they wrongly perceive as "the enemy".

Say NO to being a victim!

But no one needs to be a victim! Quite simply, it's not very easy to victimize a person who owns and knows how to use a firearm. If most women owned and carried firearms, rapes and beating would decrease.29 Thugs who target the elderly and disabled would find honest work once they realized they were likely to be looking down the barrel of a pistol or shotgun. It's nearly impossible to enslave, or herd into concentration camps, large numbers of armed people.


Communicating with anti-gun people
How can you communicate more effectively with an anti-gun person who is using unhealthy defense mechanisms? There are no quick and easy answers. But there are a few things you should keep in mind.

Anger and attacks do not work

Most gun owners, when confronted by an anti-gun person, become angry and hostile. This is understandable, because gun owners increasingly face ridicule, persecution and discrimination. (If you don't believe this, ask yourself if anyone would seriously introduce legislation to ban African- Americans, women, or Jews from post offices, schools, and churches. Even convicted felons aren't banned from such places – but peaceful armed citizens are!) But an angry response is counterproductive.

It's not helpful to attack the person you're trying to persuade. Anything that makes him feel more fearful or angry will only intensify his defenses. Your goal is to help the person feel safe, and then to provide experiences and information that will help him to make informed decisions.

Be Gentle

You should never try to break down a defense mechanism by force. Remember that defense mechanisms protect people from feelings they cannot handle, and if you take that protection away, you can cause serious psychological harm. And because defense mechanisms operate unconsciously, it won't do any good to show an anti-gun person this article or to point out that he's using defense mechanisms. Your goal is gently and gradually to help the person to have a more realistic and rational view of the world. This cannot be done in one hour or one day.

As you reach out to people in this way, you need to deal with both the illogical thought processes involved and the emotional reactions that anti-gun people have to firearms. When dealing with illogical thought processes, you are attempting to use reason and logic to convince the anti-gun person that his perception of other people and his perception of firearms are seriously inaccurate. The goal is to help him to understand that armed citizens and firearms are not threats, and may even save his life.


Reversing Irrational thoughts
The Mirror Technique

One approach that can be helpful is simply to feed back what the anti-gun person is telling you, in a neutral, inquisitive way. So, when replying to my anonymous e-mail correspondent (above), I might respond, "So you fear if your neighbors had guns, they would use them to murder you. What makes you think that?" When you simply repeat what the person has said, and ask questions, you are not directly challenging his defenses. You are holding up a mirror to let him see his own views. If he has very strong defenses, he can continue to insist that his neighbors want to murder him. However, if his defenses are less rigid, he may start to question his position.

Another example might be, "Why do you think that your children's schoolteachers would shoot them?" You might follow this up with something like, "Why do you entrust your precious children to someone you believe would murder them?" Again, you are merely asking questions, and not directly attacking the person or his defenses.

Of course the anti-gun person might continue to insist that the teachers really would harm children, but prohibiting them from owning guns would prevent it. So you might ask how using a gun to murder innocent children is different from stabbing children with scissors, assaulting them with baseball bats, or poisoning the milk and cookies.

It's important to ask "open-ended" questions that require a response other than "yes" or "no". Such questions require the anti-gun person actually to think about what he is saying. This will help him to re-examine his beliefs. It may also encourage him to ask you questions about firearms use and ownership.

The "What Would You Do?" Technique

Once you have a dialogue going with an anti-gun person, you might want to insert him into a hypothetical scenario, although doing so is a greater threat to his defenses, and is therefore more risky. You might ask how he would deal with a difficult or annoying co-worker. He will likely respond that he would never resort to violence, but "other people" would, especially if they had guns. (Projection again.) You can then ask him who these "other people" are, why they would shoot a co-worker, and what the shooter would gain by doing so.

Don't try to "win" the argument. Don't try to embarrass the person you're trying to educate. Remember that no one likes to admit that his deeply held beliefs are wrong. No one likes to hear "I told you so!" Be patient and gentle. If you are arrogant, condescending, hurtful or rude to the anti-gun person, you will only convince him that gun owners are arrogant, hurtful people – who should not be trusted with guns!


Defusing Emotional reactions
The "You Are There" Technique

Rational arguments alone are not likely to be successful, especially since many people "feel" rather than "think". You also need to deal with the emotional responses of the anti-gun person. Remember that most people have been conditioned to associate firearms with dead toddlers. So you need to change the person's emotional responses along with his thoughts.

One way to do this is to put the anti-gun person (or his family) at a hypothetical crime scene and ask what he would like to have happen. For example, "Imagine your wife is in the parking lot at the supermarket and two men grab her. One holds a knife to her throat while the other tears her clothes off. If I see this happening and have a gun, what should I do? What would happen next? What if after five minutes, the police still haven't arrived?"

Just let him answer the questions and mentally walk through the scenario. Don't argue with his answers. You are planting seeds in his mind than can help change his emotional responses.

The Power of Empathy

Another emotion-based approach that is often more successful is to respond sympathetically to the plight of the anti-gun person.

Imagine for a moment how you would feel if you believed your neighbors and co-workers wanted to kill you and your family, and you could do nothing at all about it except to wait for the inevitable to occur.

Not very pleasant, is it?

This is the world in which opponents of armed self-defense live. All of us have had times in our lives when we felt "different" and had to contend with hostile schoolmates, co- workers, etc. So we need to invoke our own compassion for these terrified people. Say something like, "It must be awful to live in fear of being assaulted by your own neighbors. I remember what it was like when I was the only (Jew, Mormon, African-American, Republican) in my (class, football team, workplace) – and even then I didn't think anyone was going to kill me." It's essential that you sincerely feel some compassion and empathy; if you're glib or sarcastic, this won't work.

Using empathy works in several ways. First, it defuses a potentially hostile interaction. Anti-gun people are used to being attacked, not understood, by advocates of gun rights. Instead of an "evil, gun-toting, extremist", you are now a sympathetic, fellow human being. This may also open the door for a friendly conversation, in which you can each discover that your "opponent" is a person with whom you have some things in common. You may even create an opportunity to dispel some of the misinformation about firearms and self-defense that is so prevalent.

This empathy technique is also useful for redirecting, or ending, a heated argument that has become hostile and unproductive. It allows you to escape from the dead end of "guns save lives" vs. "the only reason to have a gun is to murder children." With empathy you can reframe the argument entirely. Instead of arguing about whether more lives are saved or lost as a result of gun ownership, you can comment on how terrifying it must be to live in a country where 80 million people own guns "solely for the purpose of murdering children".

You should not expect any of these approaches to work immediately; they won't. With rare exceptions, the anti-gun person is simply not going to "see the light," thank you profusely, and beg you to take him shooting. What you are doing is putting tiny chinks into the armor of the person's defenses, or planting seeds that may someday develop into a more open mind or a more rational analysis. This process can take months or years. But it does work!


Corrective Experiences
Perhaps the most effective way to dissolve defense mechanisms, however, is by providing corrective experiences30. Corrective experiences are experiences that allow a person to learn that his ideas about gun owners and guns are incorrect in a safe and non-threatening way. To provide a corrective experience, you first allow the person to attempt to project his incorrect ideas onto you. Then, you demonstrate that he is wrong by your behavior, not by arguing.

For example, the anti-gun person will unconsciously attempt to provoke you by claiming that gun owners are uneducated "rednecks," or by treating you as if you are an uneducated "redneck." If you get angry and respond by calling him a "stupid, liberal, socialist", you will prove his point. However, if you casually talk about your M.B.A., your trip to the Shakespeare festival, your vegetable garden, or your daughter's ballet recital, you will provide him with the opportunity to correct his misconceptions.

If you have used the above techniques, then you have already provided one corrective experience. You have demonstrated to the frightened, anti-gun person that gun owners are not abusive, scary, dangerous and sub-human monsters, but normal, everyday people who care about their families, friends and even strangers.

As many gun owners have already discovered, the most important corrective experiences involve actually exposing the fearful person to a firearm. It is almost never advisable to tell someone that you carry a concealed firearm, but there are ways to use your own experience favorably.

For example, if you're dealing with an anti-gun person with whom you interact regularly and have a generally good relationship – a coworker, neighbor, church member, etc. – you might indirectly refer to concealed carry. You should never say anything like "I'm carrying a gun right now and you can't even tell," especially because in some states that would be considered illegal, "threatening" behavior. But you might consider saying something like, "I sometimes carry a firearm, and you've never seemed to be uncomfortable around me." Whether to disclose this information is an individual decision, and you should consider carefully other consequences before using this approach.

First-hand experience

Ultimately, your goal is to take the anti-gun person shooting. Some people will accept an invitation to accompany you to the range, but others are too frightened to do so, and will need some preliminary experience.

First, you want to encourage the anti-gun person to have some contact with a firearm in whatever way feels most comfortable to him. Many people seem to believe that firearms have minds of their own and shoot people of their own volition. So you might want to start by inviting him simply to look at and then handle an unloaded firearm. This also provides you the opportunity to show the inexperienced person how to tell whether a firearm is loaded and to teach him the basic rules of firearms safety.

Encourage the newcomer to ask questions and remember that your role is to present accurate information in a friendly, responsible and non-threatening way. This is a good time to offer some reading material on the benefits of firearms ownership. But be careful not to provide so much information that it's overwhelming. And remember this is not the time to launch into anti-government rants, the New World Order, conspiracy theories, or any kind of political talk!

Next, you can invite your friend to accompany you to the shooting range. (And if you're going to trust each other with loaded guns, you should consider yourselves friends!) Assure him that no one will force him to shoot a gun and he's free just to watch. Let him know in advance what he will experience and what will be expected of him. This includes such things as the need for eye and ear protection, a cap, appropriate clothing, etc. Make sure you have a firearm appropriate for your guest should s/he decide to try shooting. This means a lower caliber firearm that doesn't have too much recoil. If your guest is a woman, make sure the firearm will fit her appropriately. Many rifles have stocks that are too long for small women, and double-stack semi-autos are usually too large for a woman's hand.

Remember that just visiting the range can be a corrective experience. Your guest will learn that gun owners are disciplined, responsible, safety-conscious, courteous, considerate, and follow the rules. He will see people of all ages, from children to the elderly, male and female, enjoying an activity together. He will not see a single "beer-swilling redneck" waving a firearm in people's faces.

In my experience, most people who visit a range will decide they do want to try shooting. Remember to make sure your guest understands all the safety rules and range rules before allowing him to handle a firearm. If you don't feel competent to teach a newcomer to shoot, ask an instructor or range master to assist. Remember to provide lots of positive feedback and encouragement. If you're lucky, you'll recruit a new firearms enthusiast.

But even if your guest decides that shooting is "not for him", he will have learned many valuable lessons. He will know basic rules of firearms safety, and how to clear a firearm should he need to do so. This may well save his life someday. He will know that guns do not fire unless a person pulls the trigger. He will know that gun owners are friendly, responsible people, not very different from him. Even if he chooses not to fire a gun ever again, he will be less likely to fear and persecute gun owners. And who knows – a few months or years later he may decide to become a gun owner.

Why these techniques do not always work

You should remember that you will not be successful with all anti-gun people. Some people are so terrified and have such strong defenses, that it's not possible for someone without professional training to get through. Some people have their minds made up and refuse to consider opening them. Others may concede that what you say "makes sense," but are unwilling to challenge the forces of political correctness. A few may have had traumatic experiences with firearms from which they have not recovered.

You will also not be successful with the anti-gun ideologues, people like Charles Schumer and Dianne Feinstein. These people have made a conscious choice to oppose firearms ownership and self-defense. They almost always gain power, prestige, and money from their anti-gun politics. They are not interested in the facts or in saving lives. They know the facts and understand the consequences of their actions, and will happily sacrifice innocent people if it furthers their selfish agenda. Do not use these techniques on such people. They only respond to fears of losing the power, prestige and money that they covet.31

Conclusion

By better understanding advocates of civilian disarmament, and by learning and practicing some simple techniques to deal with their psychological defenses, you will be much more effective in your efforts to communicate with anti-gun people. This will enable you to be more successful at educating them about the realities of firearms and self- defense, and their importance to our liberty and safety.

Educating others about firearms is hard work. It's not glamorous, and it generally needs to be done one person at a time. But it's a very necessary and important task. The average American supports freedom of speech and freedom of religion, whether or not he chooses to exercise them. He supports fair trials, whether or not he's ever been in a courtroom. He likewise needs to understand that self-defense is an essential right, whether or not he chooses to own or carry a gun.


© 2000, Sarah Thompson.

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http://www.jpfo.org/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #77
85. Deleted message
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #77
99. Oh gosh, out of possible concise expression,
did you really have to print all of that? I find many glaring generalizations quite disconcerting and IMHO invalid.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
97. My Father bought me two rifles and a shotgun in my youth ...
And most importantly, he taught me gun safety and how to accurately fire them. Must admit that that damn shotgun nearly tears my shoulder out of the socket if I don't have it properly seated. However, there's nothing better than a shotgun for effective home security. If you KNOW that you have an intruder coming at you with a gun or knife, well, a shotgun pointed in the general direction - you can't miss. :-)

I own NO hand guns, and I believe, that's the way I want it. Hand guns are lousy home security weapons UNLESS you make time to become accurate by going to the firing range at least once per month. I have better things to do than waste my time with, mostly right wing freepers, at the local firing range.

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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
100. i should know better than to throw my 2 cents into this debate
canadians don't own as many guns, and they don't have as many gun deaths. this is not a coincidence. my source? michael moore, so its probably a lie, right?

for a lot of you real red-blooded americans, guns are basically your porn. you get off on them: the design, the engineering, the craft, the power. thinking about your old guns, dreaming of the day when you'll have a new one you can cradle & keep clean. if your gun had a pussy you'd fuck it.

own as many guns as you want - nothing i say is ever going to change shit about gun control in this insane excuse for a nation. but do not write things like "maybe i should come over to your house & tell you what you NEED" - that's a threat.




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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-06-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. fast cars, incendiary speech, recreational drugs, guns, abortion, all can
be dangerous but I'd rather them all be legal than not even if it would be safer without them.
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