Science or Miracle?; Holiday Season Survey Reveals Physicians' Views of Fa

[Postmanx]

Article

NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Dec. 20, 2004--A national survey of 1,100 physicians, conducted by HCD Research and the Louis Finkelstein Institute for Religious and Social Studies of The Jewish Theological Seminary in New York City over the past weekend, found that 74% of doctors believe that miracles have occurred in the past and 73% believe that can occur today.


The poll also indicated that American physicians are surprisingly religious, with 72% indicating they believe that religion provides a reliable and necessary guide to life.

Often, religious conviction, especially a belief in the miraculous, declines as level of education increases. This does not appear to hold true for physicians. Perhaps because of their frequent involvement with matters of life and death, physicians show significant openness to religion.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

1. 7 generations of physicians in my family...science, science, science.

This study sounds bogus. People of science are generally critical thinkers, not faith thinkers.

[pnutchuck]

4. Have many friends in medicine

and very few are religious and if they are it only extends so far as the necessity for the cohesiveness of society. Dr. Ernest Becker in "The Birth And Death Of Meaning" states that the educated have this tendency to embrace religion without actual belief because they understand it's necessity in the bonding of communities.

On the other hand, from an outsider's point of view, I would think that, in certain hopeless cases, "miraculous" recoveries could bring a physician closer to a spiritual belief. Being a Buddhist, I believe in natural energies and their connectivities to everything. Miraculous could be misinterpreted as the will of life.

[DemBones DemBones]

45. I know a lot of physicians, too, and most are religious.

I know this because many doctors in this city are Catholic and I see them at church.
Not just family practitioners, either, but oncologists, cardiologists, neurologists, gastroenterologists, otolaryngologists, opthalmologists, surgeons, pediatricians, internists, pretty much all the specialties are found in my parish.

I also know that one of my doctors is Jewish and another is Southern Baptist but only because I heard this mentioned by other Jews and Southern Baptists, as in "Oh, yes, he goes to temple/church with me," not because the physicians themselves told me their religious affiliation.

Being religious does not necessarily stop a person from approaching their work scientifically, any more than being an atheist necessarily makes a person think life is pointless. Most of us religious people aren't going to ignore our scientific knowledge and training in favor of faith healing, but we can still have faith.

[FM Arouet666]

2. 100% of this physician thinks it is a load of crap

Great post, as a physician and scientist, I view religion as fantasy. I have never witnessed a miracle, nor do I believe in this delusional concept. I do believe the statistics, most in medicine are republicans, and by definition, are given to irrational thought.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

18. Remind me to never go see you

I want a doctor who knows science and has faith. Either one without the other doesn't cut it with me.

[FM Arouet666]

19. Your off my patient list

Faith, religion is an outdated mode of viewing the world. I wish to be grounded in the real world, and I accomplish this through scientific thinking.

[Marnieworld]

34. You'd be my doc

I'd want someone to be scouring JAMA articles and databases of science trying to cure me until my last breath instead of someone looking heavenward saying, "It's in invisible man's hands now."

[FM Arouet666]

36. Thanks, it is appreciated. n/t

[ChickMagic]

43. I'm with you doc

I'm often taken aback when a doctor professes his/her religiosity. Some of the docs I work with are fundy republicans. I work in radiology and have noticed different mindsets attracted to different specialties. Radiologists tend to be obsessive/compulsive. They have to be. Their thinking gets into very deep ruts. I know a few creationist Radiologists.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think docs usually train in scientific method unless they specialize and plan to conduct studies. Is that correct?

[Malva Zebrina]

46. I'm with you too

those who believe in miracles to begin with, are most likely if they are the suffering or have relatives who are suffering, using modern medicine to it's nth degree.

This is the stuff of urban legendsand it is harmful to others.

Is it only the Christian god who performs these so called miracles?

If they believed in miracles,and god ordained cures, (which opens up a Pandora's box of worms) they would all be Christian Scientists, who, btw do believe that all is spirit and anything else is merely an illusion, including modern medicine-- so do not rely upon MD's.

To me, it is the same thing as claiming that the face of Jesus appeared on a tortilla or that the virgin appeared on a picket fence.

[Runcible Spoon]

39. here is a good Dr. for you Alicia

this is what happens when faith and medicine are freely allowed to interbreed:

Dr. W. David Hager:
"he refuses to prescribe contraceptives to unwed women. He has spoken out against the use of birth control pills and condoms outside of marriage. Hager is a member of the Physicians Resource Council, part of the radical right group Focus on the Family. And he has written books and articles encouraging women to turn to prayer and scripture to help heal ailments such as premenstrual syndrome, postpartum depression and eating disorders"

http://www.now.org/press/10-02/10-16.html

I dunno about you, but the only faith I have when I'm PMSing is in Haagen Dazs ice cream. :evilgrin:

[PATRICK]

42. Probably right when

you consider the smarm and the preconceptions that go into this revisiting of the issue. It is like the lazy reporter who believes more in astrology than the Hubble finding some astronomers are practitioners and superstitious.

THAT has nothing to do with the- by definition- nebulous concept of miracle. If it is not natural it can't be "proved". If not proved, then not scientific. If mysterious then fair game for a "knowing" theorist.

Surveys like this evince a deadly triviality of real thought. the doctors who fall into this trap do so probably because they are a priori already religionists as well. So many Catholic doctors believe in the Virgin Birth(but don't ask them to explain it!) Another inane entertainment questionnaire.

But if you quizzed geologists about global warming you wouldn't get this nodding pious respect by the media would you? You'd get objective skepticism or utter silence.

A lot of people believe in ghosts and UFOs too, maybe more than believe in evolution. The realization is not heartwarming.

[DireStrike]

3. I don't respect a lot of doctors anymore.

Not because of this. But I'm not surprised.

[0007]

44. I never have respect for croakers until I need one!

"The poll also indicated that American physicians are surprisingly religious, with 72% indicating they believe that religion provides a reliable and necessary guide to life."

I've been around for 72 years and been in the professional world. I'd say the doctors that I knew, and there were hundreds were the biggest rounders of them all. They smoked too much, they drank like fish, they gambled like trained monkeys, they were greedy for not religion but for more money.

[oneold1-4u]

5. The honest doctors know

That they and medicine are only a go between or helper!
The human body must heal itself and is capable of doing so quite well.
The worst doctors in the world are those 5 minute gods who forgot their OATH TO DO NO HARM and announce horrible death sentences that only they and their profession knows how to care for!

[beam me up scottie]

6. I just quit going to my doctor because he told me that he disagreed

with gays and lesbians raising children. the conversation started when he made a comment about me being a vermonter and wasn't i glad to have moved? i asked why he would think that, he said since governor Dean legalized gay marriage he heard that all of the gays were moving to Vermont. i started laughing because i thought he was kidding ( this guy is a doctor, right?) But, no, he was serious. When i asked him if he even knew any homosexuals he said maybe one or two. He asked if i was a lesbian and i said no, but right now i wish i was, and i also wished i was still living in vermont, which seems to have substantially less idiots per capita than kentucky. What kind of "doctor" thinks like this? He's supposed to be educated? WTF????
luckily, my new doctor is young, intelligent and open-minded.

[GOPBasher]

7. Good for you for leaving!

Did you tell him why you left?

By the way, welcome to DU! :hi:

[beam me up scottie]

8. i said something about moving back to vermont when it becomes

part of the united states of canada. I used to not take it personally when someone gave their political opinion during conversation. i now take it VERY PERSONALLY. i refuse to speak with a good friend of mine from cleveland who is a born-again catholic. he used to joke about bush's election (i called it a selection) and send me postcards with w's picture on them. it is not funny anymore. it never was. i have gay friends and family and i am also not a christian, people like him are a threat to people like me. people like me are barely tolerated in this country now, where will we be in four more years?
oh, by the way, thanks for the welcome. i live in a red state but am no longer lonely thanks to du.

[FM Arouet666]

14. I see it a lot

I am a doctor, and I see bigotry, intolerance and down right ignorance from many in my profession. Your are correct in your perceptions, the younger crowd is different. I will be happy when the dinosaurs, most of which are repukes, have retired.

[0007]

17. Good for you!

[HuckleB]

28. Good idea.

If the science showing that gays and lesbians are great parents doesn't suit him, then what other science has he chosen to ignore in how he runs his practice.

Scary.

[Demeter]

38. You Are Experiencing the Outer Limits

It was the color-change when you crossed the Mason-Dixon line.

If we all work ourselves to death next election, perhaps we can return control of your television set....

[MasonJar]

9. Doctors know that there are miracles which derive from the

environment and mental attitude of a patient. If the patient believes that he will get well, then sometimes miracles do happen. Many things blend together to bring health, not just science. My father, my grandfather, both my uncles and my daughter, doctors all and the generators of many miracles.

[Ilsa]

10. Placebo effect for some patients. n/t

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

11. Exactly. nt

[mainer]

12. I don't believe this one bit

M.D. here, married to an M.D., with loads of M.D. friends who are agnostics. I wonder how they "found" all these religious doctors.

Neither I nor my husband ever witnessed any medical "miracles" in our careers. Only misdiagnoses.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

13. Many docs see themselves as ministers of the body or 'human temple.'

Like shrinks, they become doctors out of a personal commitment to tend to those in need.

They also frequently see the mind/body connection and encourage institutionalized optimism as they help others deal with being sick and mortal.

These are very spiritual social interactions.

This article however will be weaponized to keep running that psy-ops 'moral values' football down the field of public opinion. The press propaganda campaign about religion is moving us towards fascist theocracy. The goal is to equate Bush* with God's Choice for President and bring back the old abusive Divine Right of Kings that the American Revolution rejected 228 years ago.

Refuting science (called EVIDENCE) serves the fascist tactic of hiding their war crimes against humanity and the environment.

Criminals don't like the reality-based world of indictments and convictions, and sentencing. They prefer faith-based thinking where the ignorant and naive have faith that authorities will do the right thing.

Rather then on acting on the strength of their convictions, they try to avoid being convicted.

"A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves."-Edward Murrow

"Let us prey."-Theocratic Fascists in the White House today.

[Merlin]

24. Well said, JOM. Plus they are in daily contact with the desperate.

They are with desperate people all day long; people who need reassurance; people who would go elsewhere if they were not certain their physician believed, as they do, in the power of prayer.

They are regularly exposed to the phenomenon of people praying for a cure, then experiencing an unexpected recovery and being certain it was the result of divine intervention.

They are on the front lines of profoundly emotional human needs, beliefs and behavior.

[pnutchuck]

29. In NC they've already put stickers in the science books at public

schools: "Evolution is only a theory and not a fact"

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

32. Ya, so is the THEORY of gravity...do they have a sticker for that? nt

[Ms_Mary]

41. Where in NC? That's the first I've heard of it.

[Richard Steele]

47. Not in NC....

Different state; he's confused two different stories.

NC is where a snooty private academy over in Raleigh is teaching their kids that the nice African folks were HAPPY to be slaves...

[Ms_Mary]

49. I thought that was a religious charter school, not something snooty

and exclusive. There are quite a few umbrella and charter schools, many of them religious.

[Terran]

15. Two words:

Bill Frist

[beam me up scottie]

16. oh yeah, forgot about billy-boy

:think: Compare Dr. Frist with Dr. Dean. I'm not in the medical field but anybody have any idea how these two could be such polar opposites? Dr. Dean came from a wealthy family yet he chose to be a GP in Vermont.

[fshrink]

20. Amen! Allelujah! Hosannah! Gloria! Blahblah!

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Try living in a small Oklahoma town!

Even the dentists are right-wing religious. I just left one dentist because of it (and the fact he had the professional 'bed-side' manner of Hannibal Lecter). These people scare me! I am all for faith, but not when it comes to treating me...if I want prayer, I will supply my own or go to a high priestess! :)

[Merlin]

26. Some good medical advice: Get Out Of Dodge!

I have enormous sympathy for your predicament. I moved to Lancaster, PA--one of the most religious communities in America--just after grad school 30 years ago. As one who is keenly interested in politics and a devoted, lifelong Dem, I can tell you it was a mistake to stay here, and I would never recommend it to somebody else. I thought I could change things. I naively believed that if they knew more they would be open to change. Nothing could be further from the truth.

My advice would be: don't waste your life in a community of rednecks and fundies.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Interviews

I have two up coming interviews, one in Providence, RI and one in College Park, Maryland....I am hoping one of those will work out and my partner and I can use our "escape Oklahoma" fund! It is all I want from Santa (and I am not even Christian)! LOL!

[arwalden]

22. My First Clue That This "Survey" Is HORSE SHIT... Look At WHO Sponsored...

and conducted the survey. LMAO!

>> Often, religious conviction, especially a belief in the miraculous, declines as level of education increases. <<

You'll get no argument from me there. I'm no authority on the subject, but it's been my own observation that the previous statement appears to be true.

[leesa]

23. How much of this crap reporting are we going to have to endure?

[pnutchuck]

30. as much as takes until every leftie is baptized and a repuke

It's called propaganda and is a very effective brainwashing tool for these "faith based" masses.

[Politicub]

25. Ass or Hat?

Who wrote this article? Was it Ass or Hat? Hmmm?

[Merlin]

27. Family doctors don't really have much of a choice.

General practitioners depend completely upon their reputation in a community for their livelihood, and develop emotional connections with their patients at profoundly important times in their patients' lives. The "wrong" answer could have two effects at the same time: (1) the patient could lose hope--even non-believers realize that hope is essential to psychosomatic ability of the body to heal itself, and (2) they would be excoriated in their community and "run out of town."

Specialists do not routinely develop such close bonds with patients and hence can get away with a view less dictated by the pressures of their community.

[madison2000]

31. I wonder if it depends on what specialty they practice n/t

[NurseLefty]

33. This survey still shows that docs are still grounded in science.

<<Often, religious conviction, especially a belief in the miraculous, declines as level of education increases.<...> Regarding their views on miracles and the source of the Bible: 37% physicians believe that the Bible's miracle stories are literally true while 50% believe they are metaphorically true..>>

These percentages about biblical beliefs are still considerably less than the general public. As for prayer, I am guessing that physicians look upon it as having therapeutic benefit. Reseach has suggested that for instance, trancendental meditation lowers blood pressure and heart rate.

I am puzzled that any person holding a doctorate based in science (as MD's do) could in their hearts and minds hold traditional religious beliefs in the face of what they know as scientists.

I find myself to be increasingly more agnostic as I learn more about science. In my attempt to resolve what confusion I have, I have looked to the brightest minds who have contemplated the spiritual/religious.

One of my favorite quotes is from Albert Einstein:
<<My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.>>

And from what I recall, Stephen Hawking has said that while he does not believe in a personal god, he does not rule out that a supernatural force is responsible for the creation of the universe.

Another great mind I learned of recently, who discusses religion and science is Richard Dawkins. He appeared on NOW with Bill Moyers a couple of weeks ago. (http://www.pbs.org/now/science/dawkins.html)

The conflict between science & religion is a long lived one. I just thought we had this settled already. Sheesh! It's the 21st century!

(edited for typo)

[Wilber_Stool]

37. My guess would be that

miracle recovery=miss-diagnosis. It's hard for a doctors to admit they're wrong.

[GoBlue]

40. This truly frightening....

The poll also indicated that American physicians are surprisingly religious, with 72% indicating they believe that religion provides a reliable and necessary guide to life.

Guess it depends on your view of reliable and necessary. What did people do before they invented religion?

[Book Lover]

48. That smell I smell sure smells like

horeshit... I know a lot of nurses and doctors - spiritual, maybe, but religious? Not the majority, by far. I am not buying this line of bull.