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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:08 AM
Original message
Turkey will not apologise for Armenian genocide
December 15, 2004

Turkey will not apologise for Armenian genocide
By Anthony Browne, Brussels Correspondent

TURKEY has reacted angrily to a demand by France that it accept responsibility for a genocide against Armenians nearly 80 years ago, which is thought to have influenced the Nazi Holocaust.
Michel Barnier, the French Foreign Minister insisted that Turkey must officially recognise the 1915 genocide before it joins the European Union.

Historians believe that Turkish authorities orchestrated the killing of 1.5 million Armenian Christians, who were indigenous inhabitants of Turkey, in a brutal attempt to make an ethnically pure nation. However, the Turkish Government has always said that only a small number were killed in spontaneous acts of violence.

M Barnier said: In the course of the accession negotiations, France will ask for a recognition of the tragedy at the outset of the 20th century. When the time comes, Turkey should face up to the requirement of remembrance. The European project itself is founded on reconciliation.

He said that recognition should not be a precondition for membership talks with Turkey, a step to be decided by EU leaders on Thursday. However, he insisted that Turkey recognise the genocide during the membership talks, which are expected to last ten years: We have ten years to ask it. the Turks have ten years to think about their response.

(snip)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1403664,00.ht...
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GRLMGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. This hits close to home
I'm not Armenian but I'm from an Armenian-heavy town and I know all about the genocide. It's so disgusting. Denying it ever happened will not make it go away. In fact, it will doom them to repeat it. GRRRRR
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I feel the same.
Sad and disgusted.
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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. I had an Armenian grandfather
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 12:53 AM by kskiska
whose family was just about wiped out well before 1915, as he arrived in the U.S. in 1909. Unfortunately, I never met him because he died at 35 in 1930. I have his immigration papers, though, and the stories that filtered down regarding the atrocities of the Turks. He and his brother escaped to France, then came to the States on a White Star Line. He became a U.S. citizen by serving in WWI.

Judging by his old Lincoln Steffens books in our attic, I would guess he was a Socialist.
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. That's fascinating kiska.
I'm completely enamored of genealogy, and yours must be really interesting.

There was a recent book about the genocide that I've been wanting to get-- something like the Burning Tigris, or the Tigris Ran with Blood-- something like that. I picked it up at Barnes and Noble a few months ago, and wanted to get it, but the hefty price tag made me put it aside for awhile.

The most I'd heard of the genocide before that was studying about the artist Arshile Gorky in art history classes. His mother died in the genocide, and he drew and painted some lovely pictures of her-- her face was so sad and haunting. He later committed suicide- I'm sure there was much unresolved there for him.

FSC
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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. "The Forty Days of Mussa Dagh"
by Franz Werfel, an epic novel of the Armenian resistance to the Turkish
genocide, is a classic.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. The book is called The Burning Tigris
and the author is Peter Balakian.

:smoke:
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. That's it.
Thanks!

Armenia sounds so exotic compared to my own very mayonnaise-like French German ancestry. But researching it is still a lot of fun.

FSC
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. I am one quarter Armenian
Turkey can go fuck itself. The other three quarters are in agreement.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
4. Hurrah for France! Yay France!
Make em acknowledge it and then they can join... Excellent strategy.
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Anakin Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. Rethugs Will Take the Side of
TURKEY!!! Just because it is France that's backing the other side. You know Rethug mentality. And it goes like this: Genocide must be a good thing if the French think it is bad. We must not agree with France over anything 'cause they are a bunch of limpwristed cowards, blah blah blah.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. I worked with two Armenian girls many years ago.
They told me about the genocide, and said there is not a single
Armenian family anywhere who did not lose at least one member.

This was in the 70s, so they were only a generation away, and the
memory was fresh.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Has France apologized to Algeria?
Or Britain to Africa?
Or the US to China or Vietnam?

I could go on, but I will give it a rest.
How come long-dead Armenians are now all of a sudden, worth something?
Or is it simply one way of preventing Turkey from negociating alliances?
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neweurope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yes. There is growing resistance in some European countries
against Turkey joining EU. Clever move.

I was always fore Turkey joining but I don't know what to think anymore. We have a growing US-influence on the Eastern European countries and Bush is supposed to have a lot of influence on Erdogan, also. Plus Erdogan supposedly plans to change the Turkish presidency to something more like the US-presidency which means much more power for the Turkish president. So I'm really not sure anymore if I want Turkey to join.
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termo Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I believe yes
It was done at many stages, including (if I remember well) the last trip of Chirac in Algeria...

During last years (and mainly for the 40th years commemoration), people started to talk, a lot a movies/documentaries were broadcast on terrestrial TV (Arte, Franch/German channel) showing tortures, rapes, massacres and also showing interviews of both french and algerian people which took part in this war.

You can find plenty of books in french (dunno if they were translated). I read books from Benjamin Stora and found them interesting. I do also recommand the movie 'The Battle of Alger', a movie W should have watched before...

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. How about the US to Iraq? And the UK gassed the Kurds
During their 1st invasion & occupaiton of Iraq. And are on their 2nd invasion & occupation of Iraq and killing Iraqis.

Of course bush will side with Turkey. Turkey is bush's "great democracy" buddy; what's a little past genocide between friends.

:eyes:

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. Doint the right thing shouldn't be dependent on others doing so
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 05:08 AM
Response to Original message
12. rent "Ararat" if you want a snapshot view of what happened ...
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
13. Diamanda Galas has been talking about this for a while
You all may not have heard of her, she's a Greek-American singer. I think she's even writing an album about the Armenian genocide and the refusal to acknowledge it. I'm a fairly well-read student, recently took a course in late Ottoman/Turkish history, and I had never even heard about it.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. thanks for "Diamanda Galas" reference - I'll look her up! :-)
:-)
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
17. The Turks fear that if they make reparations. . .Armenians,
particularly those living in the Diaspora (outside modern-day Armenia) will then demand more. You know, "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile".

This link from Mother Jones a few months back sums it up real well:
http://www.motherjones.com/news/dailymojo/2004/04/04_53...

(snip)
Fear of being forced to pay reparations -- monetary and territorial -- is often cited as a reason for Turkey's refusal to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Some Armenians are still calling for "the return of the lands" from which their ancestors were expelled, a demand that is not going to be supported by the international community. In any case, even if it was, mass migrations from Paris and Los Angeles to populate Turkey's rural areas are not realistic either -- the descendants of the survivors are well-integrated into their "host countries." More likely, international courts will require that Turkey pay massive reparations...
(snip)
Turkey's refusal to recognize the Armenian Genocide, is much more than a matter of money, though -- the recognition would entail a fundamental transformation of the country's political and educational discourse. An honest examination of the violent dismemberment of the multi-national empire from whose ashes modern Turkey rose would require that the government dismantle the founding myths of the state...
(snip)
Turkey's drive to enter the E.U. has been met with constant promises of "tomorrow, tomorrow." The Europeans have pointed to Turkey's poor human rights record, Cyprus, and lack of progress on democratization, but unwillingness on the part of Europe to let a poor, populous Muslim country into the club is a reason as well. The E.U. has not made the acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide a requirement for Turkey's entry, but it has urged Turkey to re-examine its past in keeping with the E.U.'s commitment to the protection of minority rights.

Turkey's younger generation is growing up in a world at odds with their country's denial of the Armenian Genocide and under a government that has little tolerance for dissent on the subject. Continuing the current policy is bound to backfire internationally by isolating Turkey, in addition to undercutting its aim of becoming a fully-fledged democracy.
(snip)


much more...

:smoke:


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BuddhaGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
19. Turkey still oppressing it's ethnic minorities
the Armenians and Kurds.

My ex-husbands family publishes the oldest Armenian newspaper in Istanbul. They have quite the stories to tell!
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hel Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. And yet your relative publishes a minority newspaper.
That's a pretty ironic post.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
22. What's at stake for Turkey?....80 years of history.
What's at stake for Turkey? 80 years of history

Suat Kiniklioglu International Herald Tribune Thursday, December 16, 2004

The expanding EU

PARIS Even as the leaders of the European Union countries meet in Brussels to decide on whether to open EU membership negotiations with Turkey, the European public is in the midst of an intense debate.
.
Not a day goes by without polls, statements and opinion articles on Turkish accession reverberating in the news media. Yet, what is missing in Europe's discussion is a recognition of the internal debate in Turkey and a better understanding what the prospect of EU membership means for the Turks.
.
For many Turks, EU accession involves much larger considerations than joining a privileged economic and political club. Membership in the EU carries with it ideological baggage that relates to the raison d'tre of the Turkish republic. Turkey's EU drive is closely associated with competing domestic political visions that should matter to Europeans.
.
The Turkish republic was founded in reaction to the Ottoman Empire and defined itself in stark contrast to it. The early republicans associated the empire with everything that was archaic, religious and backward. They modeled the republic on modern, secular and progressive lines, similar to those they saw in Europe. They also embarked on an unprecedented "civilizational turn" and in the 1920s and 1930s radically broke with Turkey's past.
.
The ultimate aim, as Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the republic, proclaimed, was to attain "contemporary civilization." Turks soon identified what was then the European Economic Community as the political expression of "contemporary civilization" that Ataturk had set them the task of reaching. As the EEC evolved into a deeper union in the 1990s, Turkey's republican elite became even more fixated with joining it.
.
To understand the Turkish domestic dynamics at play, one must start by recognizing that Turkey's radical break with its past was not only initiated with the aim of imitating Western civilization but also motivated by a genuine desire to participate in it.
.
The EU has been reluctant, however, to respond to this Turkish desire. This reluctance in turn reflects the challenges Turks face domestically.
.
The struggle for ideological dominance has been an ongoing process in Turkey ever since the establishment of the republic in 1923. To this day, an ideological struggle over the nature of the republic continues...cont'd

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/15/news/edsuat.html
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hel Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
23. I, as a Turkish person,
do not deny cruel and unnecessary atrocities committed against Armenians and am very saddened by this red stain on the history of my people and the suffering of the Armenians; but to call it a purposeful genocide? That's too much. Ottomans had no military to spare to such an effort, and I don't think it is that easy to murder 1.5 million people. And besides, there were no 1.5 million Armenians living in Ottoman Empire back then. Numbers are clearly exaggerated. First Armenian reports on the matter (which they printed on billboards all around United States to further their cause) called 200.000 deaths. The numbers have risen continually since then.

I think it is also very sad that Armenian governments expect to earn money or prestige from the misery of its own people.


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