Hawks push deep cuts in forces in Iraq (Cut and Run?)

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http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/11/22/hawks_push_deep_cuts_in_forces_in_iraq/

By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff Ê|Ê November 22, 2004
WASHINGTON -- A growing number of national security specialists who supported the toppling of Saddam Hussein are moving to a position unthinkable even a few months ago: that the large US military presence is impeding stability as much as contributing to it and that the United States should begin major reductions in troops beginning early next year.
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Their assessments, expressed in reports, think tank meetings, and interviews, run counter to the Bush administration's insistence that the troops will remain indefinitely to establish security. But some contend that the growing support for an earlier pullout could alter the administration's thinking.

[Florida_Geek]

1. Besides they need the troops for

Iran. :(

[LiberalEsto]

2. and Syria n/t

[Nevernose]

3. No they don't

That's why they've been collecting all those nukes for the last fifty years. What good are toys if you don't play with them once in a while?
:scared:

[jwirr]

19. Just curious

would the oil survive in a nuclear attack? I don't think bushie would shot himself in the pocketbook.

[DulceDecorum]

26. Nukes and Oil

In fact, as early as 1949, the Truman administration investigated the most effective methods for preventing an enemy from using Middle East oil fields. Fearful of a possible Soviet invasion of the Arabian Peninsula, President Harry S. Truman put in place a plan to blow up the Saudi oil installations so as to prevent the Soviets from making use of the oil and thus becoming even more powerful.

In 1950, the CIA conducted a feasibility study that considered the use of radiological weapons as a way of making it impossible for the Soviets to benefit from the oil.

The CIA report ruled out the use of radiological weapons as a method for two reasons.

First, it was found that "denial of the wells by radiological means can be accomplished to prevent an enemy from utilizing the oil fields but it could not prevent him from forcing 'expendable Arabs' to enter contaminated areas to open well heads and deplete the reservoirs. Therefore, it is not considered that radiological means are practicable as a conservation measure." In other words, while such a method would have prevented the Soviets from using the oil, it would have also prevented the United States from using it upon reoccupation.

Second, the CIA report found that the use of explosives and conventional plugging methods of the oil heads could be effective enough in denying the Soviets the ability to access the oil. As a result, the Truman administration put in place an oil-denial policy using conventional explosives that were stored in the region. This policy was later reinforced by the Eisenhower administration.
http://www.brook.edu/views/op-ed/telhami/20030213.htm

[AlCzervik]

21. they will never have enough troops for Iran unless they draft

3x the population of Iraq and 3x the size plus the topography is totally different. But then you probably know this already, do the hawks?

[Rose Siding]

25. The Telegraph says Cheney and Bolton favor an Iran push

Drawing down troops in Iraq really could play into this.

snip>
Vice-president Dick Cheney and his fellow hardliner, John Bolton, an under-secretary of state to Mr Powell, are both understood to have lobbied Mr Bush to replace him.

They wanted to make Iran's alleged nuclear bomb aspirations and support for Islamic terror groups the foreign policy priority for the new administration and believed that Mr Powell would back away from a confrontational approach.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/21/wpow21.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/21/ixnewstop.html

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. Another vacillation by the hawks.

These folks ain't exactly right. In fact, they are full-on Bull Goose Looney.

[snippy]

11. I would call it a flip flop rather than vacillation.

If Bush ends up taking their advice I hope that some democrats point this out and contrast such a pull out with Kerry's position.

[RawMaterials]

5. don't forget n.Korea

[Kolesar]

7. & suppressing our first amendment rights to assembly + free speech ... eom

[grumpy old fart]

6. Flip Flop?

But seriously, the chicken hawks are gonna let some reality based know it alls alter God's plan? Nah. Full speed ahead to Armageddon!

[maddezmom]

8. but the boots on the ground, disagree

BAGHDAD, Nov. 21 -- Senior U.S. military commanders in Iraq (news - web sites) say it is increasingly likely they will need a further increase in combat forces to put down remaining areas of resistance in the country.


Convinced that the recent battle for Fallujah has significantly weakened insurgent ranks, commanders here have devised plans to press the offensive into neighborhoods where rebels have either taken refuge after fleeing Fallujah or were already deeply entrenched.


But the forces available for these intensified operations have become limited by the demands of securing Fallujah and overseeing the massive reconstruction effort there -- demands that senior U.S. military officers say are likely to tie up a substantial number of Marines and Army troops for weeks.


"What's important is to keep the pressure on these guys now that we've taken Fallujah from them," a high-ranking U.S. military commander said, speaking on condition he not be named because of the sensitivity of the deliberations on adding more troops. "We're in the pursuit phase. We have to stay after these guys so they don't get their feet set."

more: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&ncid=716&e=16&u=/washpost/20041122/ts_washpost/a2565_2004nov21

[MADem]

12. But why listen to them?

They are the poor bastards who are stuck playing a deadly game of "Whack a Mole" in an increasingly hostile environment.

Staying won't help, leaving won't help. We made a mess. We took a country that was for all intents and purposes, under US control via a casualty-averse no fly policy, and turned it into a war zone and terrorist haven.

That's what happens when ya put idiots in charge....

[Yavin4]

15. The Neocons Have No Respect for Our Military

The neocon attitude is that the military is nothing more than a bunch of dumb animals who weren't smart enough to do anything else with their life. They don't care what the military commanders think.

[MADem]

17. Well, they think that SERVING IN THE MILITARY

...is for suckers.

You're quite right, they don't respect them, they don't value them, and they sure as hell don't honor them.

How many funerals has weecowboy attended? Let's see...that would be ....none.

[A Simple Game]

33. They don't respect or honor them,

but the they do value them. As anyone would value a tool as a means to an end. But the value is not personal, just for what the tool can do for them.

[catmandu57]

9. And then what???

The retreat will turn into a rout, our troops will look like the british staggering back into Boston. Then what are they going to do for oil? Alaska doesn't have that much, the lower 48 can't meet the need.
Venezuela is much closer, but that won't bring the Armageddon these freaks are salivating for. The military might just wake up and see how badly they have been used.
When does the war come home? we can't seal our borders they're so porous anyone with anything can get in.
We stepped in a big pile of hot steaming shit and payback is going to be a bitch, for all of us.

[AP]

10. Permanent chaos, enough troops to destabilize another country, high oil

prices, and an American public that perceives the Republicans as doing the rigtht thing.

[JPace]

13. They will have to start the draft to increase the numbers of troops

over there or pull out. I don't see the AWOL regime wanting to have their kids and grandkids drafted.

They will pull out.

[snippy]

14. Which one of the chickenhawks will volunteer to be the last man to die?

[bemildred]

16. Trial balloon fig leaf. nt

[reprobate]

18. I keep seeing the film of the brits at Dunkirk.

Except this time it's the americans not the brits, and it's the gulf not the english channel.

[yellowcanine]

20. Oops - There goes Georgie's shot at Mt. Rushmore. I guess he will

just have to hope for Nixonian rehabilitation as an "elder statesman" when he limps through his lame duck term surrounded by foreign policy quagmires, economic chaos and multiple scandals.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

27. Oh, snap out of it.

You know he'll just blow up Mt. Rushmore, and replace it with his smirking visage.

I'm thinking of "Ozymandias" now, and it's only Monday.

On the other hand, John Kerry is staying quiet, and there are oodles of lawyers in Ohio.

Have faith, friends.....

[jhain]

22. The soldiers' story: the war the video cameras do not see

posted this earlier today on its own.
Also fits well here.



http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.j...

The soldiers' story: the war the video cameras do not see
The 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit has moved on from Fallujah to a bloody and largely unreported operation south of Baghdad to hunt 'the beheader' Zarqawi. Kim Sengupta found the marines combative yet contemplative, and haunted by the images that shocked the world

21 November 2004

[blue agave]

24. jhain - bad link

I wonder if the story has been pulled.

[jhain]

32. try this

you were right- I had to search a bit on the site but it is still there.
worth the time:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=585070

[Supersedeas]

23. but but but but but John McCain said...and John McCain said vote for *

[The_Casual_Observer]

28. These are the same nitwits who thought we would be welcomed

I would give the Iraqi police about 5 minutes before they were all executed and the place erupted into total civil war chaos.

[Kimber Scott]

29. Good Idea! Bring them home.

Of course, it's not like anybody else was thinking this first, but who gives a flip?

[catnhatnh]

30. Suspicious....

Let's see....IF i was gonna jump Iran I'd want all three of the combat arms group represented....lets see...
1. DU late breaking (INFANTRY)secutity "specialists" "deep cuts"
2. DU late breaking (ARMOR) 100 tanks being shifted from Korea.
3. ?????????????? (ARTILLERY) Dammit!!!Where'd I leave that damn artillery???Dick,have you seen my guns....

[Dover]

31. Perfect storm brewing at home........

Well the Bushies announced today that not only will they send several thousand more troops to Iraq, but they will use troops that are normally reserved for emergency responses (airborne). This seems to me to leave us more vulnerable here in the states.

And then this recent refusal by Republicans to get the intelligence agencies sorted out so that they can function.....

Does anyone feel that these things are related and that another 'attack' on the U.S. is imminent....and more excuses of "inefficiencies" and lack of protection at home will be offered up as the reasons for it?