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Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:15 PM
Original message
Troops Report 'Atrocity Sites' in Fallujah
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 05:16 PM by Tab
ALLUJAH, Iraq - U.S. troops have found close to 20 "atrocity sites" used by insurgents to imprison, torture and kill hostages in Fallujah, a U.S. military officer said Sunday.

Marine Maj. Jim West said that in addition to numerous weapons caches, troops clearing the city after a major U.S.-led offensive had found rooms containing knives and black hoods, "many of them blood-covered."

Briefing reporters at a base outside Fallujah, West said one room had "handprints on the walls and along the sides of the walls ... There was blood covering the entire wall and along the floorboard area."

He said troops had found signs of "torture, murder, very gruesome sights."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=9...
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. as opposed to US 'atrocity sites'??
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 05:25 PM by leftchick
Which would be pretty much ALL of Fallujah. Where one can see what destruction 500 lb bombs and Willie P contamination can have on innocents? Let them try and fucking rewrite the evil history they have just written! The world KNOWS...


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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. The floor of the hospital there was covered in blood... it was like
a river of blood being washed away with a watering hose I guess when they had a break in those seeking attention?

:cry: So much blood...
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Right! As "opposed" to the massive
ATROCITY that is Iraq thanks to bush's Invasion for no fucking reason other political and profiteering.
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. Handprints from those fighting and wounded.... ?
Dunno anymore what is true and what isn't. Then you begin to wonder does it even matter. :cry:

So much blood...
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
43. the media needs to be tortured.
I'm pissing mad right now.

the media needs a few iron maidens and catherine wheels.

the media, job creation by the right for the right, economic welfare, affirmative action for fundiecrats.

Affirmative action for facists, get a media job.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bush's PR people are at it again
I wonder how much these people make in order to spew out this stuff.

I don't believe a thing put out by any of them.
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Spock_is_Skeptical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. That's my thoughts, exactly. I can't trust 'em.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. Just an excuse for demolishing a city. "See, we found torture rooms"
So it is justified that we killed women and children and demolished an entire city. It is justified that we are withholding food and water to the old and poor still in the city.

We say we found torture rooms so you do not have to feel guilty for our inhumane treatment of civilians.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
37. Study psy-ops. US Army Field Manual 33-1 Psychological Operations here>
PROPAGANDA TECHNIQUES
"Propaganda Techniques" is based upon "Appendix I: PSYOP Techniques" from "Psychological Operations Field Manual No.33-1" published by Headquarters; Department of the Army, in Washington DC, on 31 August 1979
(from http://www.mcad.edu/classrooms/POLITPROP/palace/library... )Not working, try
http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/01-06-04/discussion.cg...
Knowledge of propaganda techniques is necessary to improve one's own propaganda and to uncover enemy PSYOP stratagems. Techniques, however, are not substitutes for the procedures in PSYOP planning, development, or dissemination.
Techniques may be categorized as:
Characteristics of the content self-evident. additional information is required to recognize the characteristics of this type of propaganda. "Name calling" and the use of slogans are techniques of this nature.
Additional information required to be recognized. Additional information is required by the target or analyst for the use of this technique to be recognized. "Lying" is an example of this technique. The audience or analyst must have additional information in order to know whether a lie is being told.
Evident only after extended output. "Change of pace" is an example of this technique. Neither the audience nor the analyst can know that a change of pace has taken place until various amounts of propaganda have been brought into focus.
Nature of the arguments used. An argument is a reason, or a series of reasons, offered as to why the audience should behave, believe, or think in a certain manner. An argument is expressed or implied.
Inferred intent of the originator. This technique refers to the effect the propagandist wishes to achieve on the target audience. "Divisive" and "unifying" propaganda fall within this technique. It might also be classified on the basis of the effect it has on an audience.

SELF-EVIDENT TECHNIQUE

Appeal to Authority. Appeals to authority cite prominent figures to support a position idea, argument, or course of action.

Assertion. Assertions are positive statements presented as fact. They imply that what is stated is self-evident and needs no further proof. Assertions may or may not be true.

Bandwagon and Inevitable Victory. Bandwagon-and-inevitable-victory appeals attempt to persuade the target audience to take a course of action "everyone else is taking." "Join the crowd." This technique reinforces people's natural desire to be on the winning side. This technique is used to convince the audience that a program is an expression of an irresistible mass movement and that it is in their interest to join. "Inevitable victory" invites those not already on the bandwagon to join those already on the road to certain victory. Those already, or partially, on the bandwagon are reassured that staying aboard is the best course of action.

Obtain Disapproval. This technique is used to get the audience to disapprove an action or idea by suggesting the idea is popular with groups hated, feared, or held in contempt by the target audience. Thus, if a group which supports a policy is led to believe that undesirable, subversive, or contemptible people also support it, the members of the group might decide to change their position.

Glittering Generalities. Glittering generalities are intensely emotionally appealing words so closely associated with highly valued concepts and beliefs that they carry conviction without supporting information or reason. They appeal to such emotions as love of country, home; desire for peace, freedom, glory, honor, etc. They ask for approval without examination of the reason. Though the words and phrases are vague and suggest different things to different people, their connotation is always favorable: "The concepts and programs of the propagandist are always good, desirable, virtuous."
Generalities may gain or lose effectiveness with changes in conditions. They must, therefore, be responsive to current conditions. Phrases which called up pleasant associations at one time may evoke unpleasant or unfavorable connotations at another, particularly if their frame of reference has been altered.

Vagueness. Generalities are deliberately vague so that the audience may supply its own interpretations. The intention is to move the audience by use of undefined phrases, without analyzing their validity or attempting to determine their reasonableness or application.

Rationalization. Individuals or groups may use favorable generalities to rationalize questionable acts or beliefs. Vague and pleasant phrases are often used to justify such actions or beliefs.

Simplification. Favorable generalities are used to provide simple answers to complex social, political, economic, or military problems.

Transfer. This is a technique of projecting positive or negative qualities (praise or blame) of a person, entity, object, or value (an individual, group, organization, nation, patriotism, etc.) to another in order to make the second more acceptable or to discredit it. This technique is generally used to transfer blame from one member of a conflict to another. It evokes an emotional response which stimulates the target to identify with recognized authorities.

Least of Evils. This is a technique of acknowledging that the course of action being taken is perhaps undesirable but that any alternative would result in an outcome far worse. This technique is generally used to explain the need for sacrifices or to justify the seemingly harsh actions that displease the target audience or restrict personal liberties. Projecting blame on the enemy for the unpleasant or restrictive conditions is usually coupled with this technique.

Name Calling or Substitutions of Names or Moral Labels. This technique attempts to arouse prejudices in an audience by labeling the object of the propaganda campaign as something the target audience fears, hates, loathes, or finds undesirable.
Types of name calling:
-Direct name calling is used when the audience is sympathetic or neutral. It is a simple, straightforward attack on an opponent or opposing idea.
-Indirect name calling is used when direct name calling would antagonize the audience. It is a label for the degree of attack between direct name calling and insinuation. Sarcasm and ridicule are employed with this technique.
-Cartoons, illustrations, and photographs are used in name calling, often with deadly effect.

Dangers inherent in name calling: In its extreme form, name calling may indicate that the propagandist has lost his sense of proportion or is unable to conduct a positive campaign. Before using this technique, the propagandist must weigh the benefits against the possible harmful results. It is best to avoid use of this device. The obstacles are formidable, based primarily on the human tendency to close ranks against a stranger. For example, a group may despise, dislike, or even hate one of its leaders, even openly criticize him, but may (and probably will) resent any non group member who criticizes and makes disparaging remarks against that leader.

Pinpointing the Enemy: This is a form of simplification in which a complex situation is reduced to the point where the "enemy" is unequivocally identified. For example, the president of country X is forced to declare a state of emergency in order to protect the peaceful people of his country from the brutal, unprovoked aggression by the leaders of country.

Plain Folks or Common Man: The "plain folks" or "common man" approach attempts to convince the audience that the propagandist's positions reflect the common sense of the people. It is designed to win the confidence of the audience by communicating in the common manner and style of the audience. Propagandists use ordinary language and mannerisms (and clothes in face-to-face and audiovisual communications) in attempting to identify their point of view with that of the average person. With the plain folks device, the propagandist can win the confidence of persons who resent or distrust foreign sounding, intellectual speech, words, or mannerisms.
The audience can be persuaded to identify its interests with those of the propagandist:
Presenting soldiers as plain folks. The propagandist wants to make the enemy feel he is fighting against soldiers who are "decent, everyday folks" much like himself; this helps to counter themes that paint the opponent as a "bloodthirsty" killer.

Presenting civilians as plain folks. The "plain folks" or "common man" device also can help to convince the enemy that the opposing nation is not composed of arrogant, immoral, deceitful, aggressive, warmongering people, but of people like himself, wishing to live at peace.

Humanizing leaders. This technique paints a more human portrait of US and friendly military and civilian leaders. It humanizes them so that the audience looks upon them as similar human beings or, preferably, as kind, wise, fatherly figures.

Categories of Plain Folk Devices:

Vernacular. This is the contemporary language of a specific region or people as it is commonly spoken or written and includes songs, idioms, and jokes. The current vernacular of the specific target audience must be used.

Dialect. Dialect is a variation in pronunciation, grammar, and vocabulary from the norm of a region or nation. When used by the propagandist, perfection is required. This technique is best left to those to whom the dialect is native, because native level speakers are generally the best users of dialects in propaganda appeals.

Errors. Scholastic pronunciation, enunciation, and delivery give the impression of being artificial. To give the impression of spontaneity, deliberately hesitate between phrases, stammer, or mispronounce words. When not overdone, the effect is one of deep sincerity. Errors in written material may be made only when they are commonly made by members of the reading audience. Generally, errors should be restricted to colloquialisms.

Homey words. Homey words are forms of "virtue words" used in the everyday life of the average man. These words are familiar ones, such as "home," "family," "children," "farm," "neighbors," or cultural equivalents. They evoke a favorable emotional response and help transfer the sympathies of the audience to the propagandist. Homey words are widely used to evoke nostalgia. Care must be taken to assure that homey messages addressed to enemy troops do not also have the same effect on US/friendly forces.
If the propaganda or the propagandist lacks naturalness, there may be an adverse backlash. The audience may resent what it considers attempts to mock it, its language, and its ways.

Social Disapproval. This is a technique by which the propagandist marshals group acceptance and suggests that attitudes or actions contrary to the one outlined will result in social rejection, disapproval, or outright ostracism. The latter, ostracism, is a control practice widely used within peer groups and traditional societies.

Virtue Words. These are words in the value system of the target audience which tend to produce a positive image when attached to a person or issue. Peace, happiness, security, wise leadership, freedom, etc., are virtue words.

Slogans. A slogan is a brief striking phrase that may include labeling and stereotyping. If ideas can be sloganized, they should be, as good slogans are self-perpetuating.

Testimonials. Testimonials are quotations, in or out of context, especially cited to support or reject a given policy, action, program, or personality. The reputation or the role (expert, respected public figure, etc.) of the individual giving the statement is exploited. The testimonial places the official sanction of a respected person or authority on a propaganda message. This is done in an effort to cause the target audience to identify itself with the authority or to accept the authority's opinions and beliefs as its own. Several types of testimonials are:

Official Sanction. The testimonial authority must have given the endorsement or be clearly on record as having approved the attributed idea, concept, action, or belief.
Four factors are involved:
Accomplishment. People have confidence in an authority who has demonstrated outstanding ability and proficiency in his field. This accomplishment should be related to the subject of the testimonial.

Identification with the target. People have greater confidence in an authority with whom they have a common bond. For example, the soldier more readily trusts an officer with whom he has undergone similar arduous experiences than a civilian authority on military subjects.

Position of authority. The official position of authority may instill confidence in the testimony; i.e., head of state, division commander, etc.

Inanimate objects. Inanimate objects may be used in the testimonial device. In such cases, the propagandist seeks to transfer physical attributes of an inanimate object to the message. The Rock of Gibraltar, for example, is a type of inanimate object associated with steadfast strength.
Personal Sources of Testimonial Authority:
Enemy leaders. The enemy target audience will generally place great value on its high level military leaders as a source of information.

Fellow soldiers. Because of their common experiences, soldiers form a bond of comradeship. As a result, those in the armed forces are inclined to pay close attention to what other soldiers have to say.

Opposing leaders. Testimonials of leaders of the opposing nation are of particular value in messages that outline war aims and objectives for administering the enemy nation after it capitulates.

Famous scholars, writers, and other personalities. Frequently, statements of civilians known to the target as authoritative or famous scholars, writers, scientists, commentators, etc., can be effectively used in propaganda messages.
Nonpersonal Sources of Testimonial Authority:
Institutions, ideologies, national flags, religious, and other nonpersonal sources are often used. The creeds, beliefs, principles, or dogmas of respected authorities or other public figures may make effective propaganda testimonials.

Factors To Be Considered:
Plausibility. The testimonial must be plausible to the target audience. The esteem in which an authority is held by the target audience will not always transfer an implausible testimonial into effective propaganda.

False testimonials. Never use false testimonials. Highly selective testimonials? Yes. Lies (fabrications)? Never. Fabricated (false) testimonials are extremely vulnerable because their lack of authenticity makes them easy to challenge and discredit.
PROPAGANDA TECHNIQUES WHICH ARE BASED ON CHARACTERISTICS OF THE CONTENT BUT WHICH REQUIRE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THE PART OF AN ANALYST TO BE RECOGNIZED

Incredible truths. There are times when the unbelievable (incredible) truth not only can but should be used.
Among these occasions are:
When the psychological operator is certain that a vitally important event will take place.
A catastrophic event, or one of significant tactical or strategic importance, unfavorable to the enemy has occurred and the news has been hidden from the enemy public or troops.
The enemy government has denied or glossed over an event detrimental to its cause.

A double-cutting edge. This technique has a double-cutting edge: It increases the credibility of the US/friendly psychological operator while decreasing the credibility of the enemy to the enemy's target audience. Advanced security clearance must be obtained before using this technique so that operations or projects will not be jeopardized or compromised. Actually, propagandists using this technique will normally require access to special compartmented information and facilities to avoid compromise of other sensitive operations or projects of agencies of the US Government.
Though such news will be incredible to the enemy public, it should be given full play by the psychological operator. This event and its significance will eventually become known to the enemy public in spite of government efforts to hide it. The public will recall (the psychological operator will "help" the recall process) that the incredible news was received from US/a
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George_S Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Isn't that Rove's battle plan?
Thanks. Interesting stuff.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. Is anyone still confused about the difference between a terrorist and a...
freedom fighter? Freedom fighters don't murder or torture their own people. Many like to quote that Marine General who, referring to the assault on Hue, said that we had to destroy the city in order to save it. A point that is missed is that we found mass graves in Hue in which the Vietcong had buried hundreds of people they had murdered when they controlled the city. People like teachers, civil servants, or those that were educated, found themselves the target of Vietcong assassins.

Compare this story with the Al-Jazeera story posted here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The war is wrong and we must bring our troops home ASAP. However, let us not delude ourselves into thinking that all of those that oppose our troops are some sort of freedom fighters. They are not! Many of them are nothing more than murderers and torturers that are trying to impose their extreme version of Islam by force on their fellow countrymen.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You are right
But like Vietnam, the government deliberately obscures the difference between the two so the people don't know what the hell to think. And the killing continues. Beyond sad.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. What did our Founding Fathers do to Benedict Arnold?
Hmm?

What did the liberated French do to the Vichy French?
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. The Founding Fathers really didn't do anything to Benedict Arnold
He fled to England, where he died in 1801.

On the other hand, his collaborator, Major John Andre, was not so lucky.

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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Alright. Same difference.
The point remains. The biggest threat to freedom fighters as always been traitors and turncoats. And they've always never hesitated to execute them. Regardless of race or religion.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. But the point remains valid.
I can vividly remember my high school history teacher telling me the Arnold was caught, then lynched. Until today I had no reason to doubt it. So I learned something new. Did you?

Anyway, my point remains valid. Freedom fighters execute traitors all the time. Even the white, christian ones.

"Caught and hoisted by your own petard of ignorance, you still try and squirm ignobly out of it.. Too funny."

Funny how you laugh when my point remains valid and the error was only superficial. You kind of remind me of Homer Simpson when he goes back to college and laughs hysterically when the professor drops his notes on the floor. Think critically about that.

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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Good response
Well reasoned and admirable restraint.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thanks.
I could have said, "you were one of the ones who apologized for the war crimes being committed in Fallujah. And if I'm not mistaken, you said you would be happy to have shot that unarmed, injured prisoner yourself. So it seems the only reason you're upset about Iraqis shooting other Iraqis is because that makes less Iraqis for Americans to kill."

But I didn't.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. You're still wrong
The majority of Iraqi (and other) civilians killed by terrorists, were NOT collaborators. They were people in the wrong place at the wrong time; children, UN workers, Nepalese who were lured to Iraq, NCO workers, and others. Even if they were "collaborators", people working for the Iraqi government, or say, a translator for Americans or the British, the comparison to Arnold is specious. Arnold was a spy and a traitor, a high ranking officer who sold out his compatriots. The vichy? Depends on their rank. Someone who was screwing a German soldier may have had their head shaved, but they weren't generally murdered. Someone who was actively working against the resistance or shuttling Jews off to concentration camps would indeed have been fair game.
If you can't see that war brings out the worst in people- on both sides, you're truly blind.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. let's also not forget what we did
to each other during the Civil War-

rape and murder of 'fellow americans' destroying homes and pillaging on both sides-

or what we did to the "Native Americans" who had the audacity to 'believe' us at our word-

human beings can be more viscous and mean hearted than the worst animal ever born- and then we live to look back and 'brag about it' -

we're all pretty much equally capable of doing some mighty nasty stuff- (and then finding ways to assuage our conscience and 'justify' it)

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R Hickey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
40. I believe I saw Benedict Arnold's grave in Westminster Abbey
About fifteen years ago I was in London, and I saw Benedict Arnold's grave stone in that chappel.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Freedom fighters don't murder or torture their own people.......
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 05:38 PM by 4MoronicYears
People like teachers, civil servants, or those that were educated, found themselves the target of Vietcong assassins.<<

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zepezauer_Mark/Iraq_B...
How our covert wars have created enemies
across the Middle East and brought terror to America.
>>The assassination attempt was not successful, and Saddam went into exile in Cairo, where he kept in contact with the U.S. embassy. He returned in 1963, when the still-popular Qassim was successfully liquidated in a Ba'athist coup.
Saddam and his colleagues quickly went to work on a bloody purge of 700 Iraqi leftists, using hit lists helpfully provided by, who else, the CIA. Over the next dozen years, through a series of murders, purges, and shifting alliances, Saddam worked his way up through the ranks. He became head of security, then vice-president, and finally, in 1979, supreme leader of Iraq.<<
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. impose their extreme version of Islam on their fellow countrymen
Sounds like the religious Reich in this country.
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Nostradamus Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. The Hue Massacre story is a lie

he testimony of Alje Vennema, a doctor working for a Canadian medical team at Quang Ngai hospital, who happened to be in the Hue province hospital during the Tet Offensive and who made his own investigation of the grave sites.12 Vennema agreed that there were 14 graves at Gia Hoi High School but said there was a total of only 20 bodies in those graves. Vennema also stated that the other two sites in Gia Hoi district of Hue held only 19 bodies rather than the 77 claimed by the government, and that those in the area of the imperial tombs southwest of Hue contained only 29 bodies rather than 201 as claimed in the official report.

According to Vennema, therefore, the total number of bodies at the four major sites discovered immediately after Tet was 68, instead of the officially claimed total of 477. Then, too, while he did not claim that none of these bodies was the victim of NLF execution, he said that the evidence indicated most of them were victims of fighting in the area, rather than of political killings. In the case of the sites in the imperial tombs area, he stated that most of the bodies were clothed in the threads of uniforms. He reported having talked with nearby villagers who said that from February 21 to 26 there had been heavy bombing, shelling and strafing in the immediate area. And, in contrast to the government claims that many victims had been buried alive there, Vennema said all the bodies showed wounds.

The circumstances of the official version -- its political warfare origins, the refusal to allow confirmation by the press from first-hand observation, the questionable statistics -- and the conflicting testimony of a medical doctor who was present at the time all point to misrepresentation of the truth by the Saigon government in its April 1968 report. In fact, the evidence suggests that the Political Warfare Battalion may have inflated the number of actual executions by the NLF by a factor of ten or more.

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/porterhue1.h...

adrian
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. Thanks -
So often "common knowledge" based upon media reports is later found to have been false. This case I have heard about before. It makes little statement about the character of either side, being what we would expect in a war, but after the fact we need a resource to facts.

A similar story I have heard is that the publicized findings of mass graves in Iraq are, at least in part, the remains of many thousands of Iraqi soldiers that were killed as they retreated by ourselves - the "highway of death", in the first gulf war.
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. Hi, Capt. Obivious!
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 06:39 PM by makhno
Many of them are nothing more than murderers and torturers that are trying to impose their extreme version of Islam by force on their fellow countrymen.

This is completely orthogonal to the fact the government is most likely making this shit up, just as it made up the Kuwait incubator babies and Saddam's "rape rooms."
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Who detonated a bomb at the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf on 29-Aug-03?
The Najaf attack came despite US intelligence warnings that Hussein loyalists or Sunni extremists were planning a terrorist strike at a Najaf shrine. For weeks before the blast, Marines searched hundreds of busloads of worshipers heading to Friday prayers at Najaf.

The explosion killed more than 100 people, including a moderate Shiite cleric supporting the coalition, Ayatollah Mohammed Bakr al-Hakim.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0922/p01s03-woiq.html

Was it the US? Not likely, for the last thing the neocons want is an unstable Iraq. You cannot profit from oil if the country is in the midst of a civil war. Perhaps it was Al-Qaeda? Bin Laden views Shia Islam as a heresy, as do the Wahabi clerics in Saudi Arabia. So why not spill some Shia blood and have them blame the Sunnis, most of whom do not follow Sharia the way Osama would approve?

Letter may detail Iraqi insurgency's concerns
Tuesday, February 10, 2004 Posted: 1849 GMT ( 2:49 AM HKT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A letter seeking al Qaeda's help battling the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, if authentic, could provide a rare look into the inner workings of the the country's insurgency.

The 17-page document, which the U.S. military said it believes was written by Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and captured last month with an al Qaeda courier, calls for suicide attacks and car bombings against Shiite targets to promote civil war between Sunni and Shiite Muslims in Iraq.

The letter depicts insurgents who are worried about what effect Iraqi self-rule, scheduled for this summer, will have on their efforts. It also expresses frustration over the lack of cooperation between Iraqis and foreign fighters, the Americans' staying power and the growing solidification of Iraqi security forces.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/02/10/sprj.nirq... /
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. A large baloney potential here...
Whether the neo-cons want a stable iraq or not may depend on the time of day, or who you talk to. As detailed in the "Bagdhad Year Zero" report, the timing and thrust of the attack served no one but the coalition authority, by putting Sistani off balance just as he had set himself against the yet-to-be-signed constitution. Bremer had no other card to play.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. any similarity to Abu Ghriab? Gitmo?
:shrug:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. Seems like there are atrocities on all sides.
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. Oooh, it's the new "rape rooms!"
Hey, but Saddam gassed his own people!
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
23. Let see some independent verification
U.N., Red Cross, that sort of verification, then maybe I might believe it. The U.S. military has been caught in too many lies.
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Pepper32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. Heck, the ENTIRE Fallujah is an Atrocity Site thanks to US
there is no justification for killing 100,000+ people.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. Funny how this comes out on the heels of the Soldier killing that
prisoner...

Timing is everything folks.

And as far as the mass graves are concerned, I have also read ( I have to link the article) that these "mass" graves were of civilians that were killed and that the locals didn't have time to bury them properly do to the heavy fighting.
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wantkerryin Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
29. LETS GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE!!!!!!!!!!! PROTEST!!!!!!!! n/t
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I agree with you, the horrors of this war have got to stop
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 10:23 PM by GetTheRightVote
I will never forgive schrub or this posse, or the repucks who help him rob this election. They allow him to continue the murder of children and their mothers, innocents caught in the middle of this war, it is a black mark on this country's name and people. We must protest for these evils acts.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
30. Fallujah pictures you wont see on your television
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 09:12 PM by Mari333
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. Archive these photos. The evidence WILL get scrubbed soon I bet.
Some of us want these on every public surface and the White House doesn't.

'Nuff said.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
31. America is an atrocity site
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
iwillalwayswonderwhy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
39. New buzzword "atrocity sites"
2 little words to invoke horror that can be used by Hannity, et al. Say it with a "somber tone" and add it to the list. "Rape Rooms", "Mass Graves", "Torture Rooms". Just in time for the holidays - "atrocity sites".
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bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
42. How convenient. They left behind black hoods and knives.
what a load of crap. AWoL obviously thinks we're as stupid as he is.
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