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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 05:40 PM
Original message
On the Allegations that Cynthia McKinney Is Crazy
I have great admiration for Cynthia McKinney. She was the first U.S. Congressperson to introduce articles of impeachment against George Bush. She was also the first and only as far as I know Congressperson to seriously question the role of the Bush administration in the 9/11 attacks on our country. Even if I believed that she was wrong on those issues and I dont I would have to give her much credit for having the courage of her convictions. I believe that we need a lot more people with those traits in Congress.

Therefore, allegations of her being crazy and irresponsible are disturbing to me, and I certainly am not about to accept them at face value. I refer here to the most recent serious allegations against her that she alleged that five thousand prisoners were executed by our government during Hurricane Katrina and dumped in a swamp.

So I tried to find the original source for this story, and I found that U-Tube videos of McKinneys statement are scattered all over the internet. There appear to be hundreds of links to this video. But when I click on it I always get the same message: This video has been removed by the user. I dont know what that means, and Im not making any allegations. Im just pointing out that its difficult to put this in context without the original source. But lets consider a few things:


RIGHT WING HATRED OF MCKINNEY

Summary of reasons for hatred of McKinney by right wingers

It is probably accurate to say that during her Congressional career, no other member of Congress was hated or feared by right wingers as much as Cynthia McKinney. This article sums up a lot of the reasons for that:

First elected to Congress in 1992, McKinney was an outspoken opponent of the Bush administrations policies on issues ranging from the war on Iraq to cutbacks in social programs.

She took on the blatant disenfranchisement of Black voters in the Florida election in 2000. She held a hearing that determined that Florida state officials knowingly used faulty data to remove tens of thousands of registered voters from the precinct lists for being convicted felons.

McKinney helped expose the horrific conditions of Katrina evacuees. She castigated the Patriot Act and compared it to the FBIs Cointel program that targeted Dr. Martin Luther King, the Black Panther Party and other freedom fighters during the 1960s. She stood up for African nations to get favorable trade agreements and loans to improve their economies.

The right-wing focused on a lengthy radio interview she did in 2001, where she commented on the Bush administrations objections to there being an official investigation into 9/11. She stated that the public had the right to know what the administration and the various governmental agencies knew about any impending threats and when they knew. In this period prior to the onset of the war on Iraq, any and all criticism of the Bush administration was treated as heresy. McKinney was pilloried in the press, called a wacko and worse...


Insistence on investigating Bush administration role in 9/11 and opposition to the Iraq War

Of all the reasons for right wing antipathy to Cynthia McKinney, probably none is more important than her hostile questioning of the Bush administrations role in 9/11 and her opposition to the Iraq War. Indeed, it is fair to say that her words about George Bush in this 2002 speech crossed a line that many Americans consider sacred, especially with regard to his role in the 9/11 attacks on our country:

I'm most proud of my work to hold this Administration accountable to the American people. And after I've asked the tough questions, here's what we now know:

That President Bush was warned that terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft and crash them into buildings in the US. (She then lists many more suspicious circumstances).

All of this has become public knowledge since I asked the simple question: What did the Bush Administration know and when did it know it. Now against this backdrop of so many unanswered questions, President Bush wants us to pledge our blind support to him. First, for his war on terrorism and now for his war in Iraq. How can we, in good conscience, prepare to send our young men and women back to Iraq to fight yet another war


Targeting of McKinneys U.S. House seat

As a result of Cynthia McKinneys many high profile words and actions, her primary opponent in her 2002 bid for re-election to Georgias 4th District House seat:

was massively assisted by a national media campaign of slander against McKinney Majette joined the Congressional Black Caucus on the strength of less than 20 percent of the black vote, but backed by over 90 percent of an abnormally large white turnout including tens of thousands of white Republicans who crossed over to vote in the Democratic primary election.

McKinney won her seat back in 2004, but in 2006 her seat was targeted again, thus ending her Congressional career (apparently), as she lost another Democratic primary election.


MCKINNEYS ALLEGATIONS OF NEFARIOUS GOVERNMENT ACTIVITY DURING HURRICANE KATRINA

As I noted above, I could not find a working link to an actual video on McKinneys comments. But here is a quote from Right Wing News on what she said:

In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, I had a woman, I've never really said this in public, out loud, in front of a lot of cameras, and there's a lot of cameras in this room now. I had a mother to call me because her son had a very gruesome task. Her son's charge by the Department of Defense was to process 5000 bodies that had received a single bullet wound to the head -- and these were mostly males. And her son was afraid to talk because he signed a silence agreement. So, he only complained to his mother. But, the data about these individuals was entered into a Pentagon computer and then reportedly, the bodies were dumped in a swamp in Louisiana. This is as a result of the tragedy of hurricane Katrina.

Now I have no...no...I have verification from insiders who wish to remain anonymous, at the Red Cross, that this is true. I suspect that these were prisoners. And so, you know, this investigation of the whole prison industrial complex is extremely important. And it should not end with just a question of the nature of prisons in our country, but these five thousand souls also need some justice too.

Right Wing News included this in their commentary on the subject:

The really disturbing thing about this sort of conspiracy mongering is that it has become so commonplace that few people seem immune to it anymore. For God's sake, this is a person who's supposed to be one of our best and brightest -- she's a former Democratic Congresswoman and yet she's a drooling loon.

Want to know what's really sad? There are probably at least a dozen other people in Congress who are just as mentally challenged as Cynthia McKinney.


A look at some documented nefarious activities in New Orleans during Katrina

As you can see from the above quote by Right Wing News, even if it is accurate McKinney did not claim that the story was true. She merely claimed that that is what she was told and that she felt it should be investigated further. Even that might be considered over-the-top for a public statement by a prominent public figure if it werent for many well documented instances of nefarious activity in New Orleans during and in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

For example, Jeremy Scahill describes the following activities by Blackwater USA, a prominent Bush administration contractor, during the response to Hurricane Katrina, from his book, Blackwater The Rise of the Worlds Most Powerful Mercenary Army:

The company beat the federal government and most aid organizations to the scene as 150 heavily armed Blackwater troops dressed in full battle gear spread out into the chaos of New Orleans All of them were heavily armed. A possibly deadly incident involving hired guns underscored the dangers of private forces policing American streets The security guard said their convoy came under fire from black gangbangers The guard said he and his men were armed with AR-15s and Glocks and that they unleashed a barrage of bullets in the general direction of the alleged shooters on the overpass. After that, all I heard was moaning and screaming, and the shooting stopped.

And A. C. Thompson recently wrote an article in The Nation titled Katrinas Hidden Race War In New Orleanss Algiers Point, white vigilantes shot African-Americans with impunity. It is a ghastly story of how, freed from the reach of the law, under cover of a catastrophe, a bunch of racist white men in a white enclave of New Orleans formed a militia to prevent black people from using their neighborhood as a sanctuary from death. Several horrific examples are provided in the article. Thompson describes how the racist militias thought of themselves:

Nathan Roper, another vigilante, says he was unhappy that outsiders were disturbing his corner of New Orleans and that he was annoyed by the National Guards decision to use the Algiers Point ferry landing as an evacuation zone The storm victims were hoodlums from the lower Ninth Ward and that part of the city, he says. Im not a prejudiced individual, but you just know the outlaws who are up to no good. You see it in their eyes There was a few people who got shot (black people shot by the militia) around here I know of at least three people who got shot.

The historian Lance Hill provides some perspective on what happened, noting that Some white New Orleanians think of themselves as an oppressed minority:

Because of the widespread notion that blacks engaged in looting and thuggery as the disaster unfolded, Hill believes, many white New Orleanians approved of the vigilante activity that occurred in places like Algiers Point. "By and large, I think the white mentality is that these people are exempt that even if they committed these crimes, they're really exempt from any kind of legal repercussion It's sad to say, but I think that if any of these cases went to trial, and none of them have, I can't see a white person being convicted of any kind of crime against an African-American during that period."


Green Party response to allegations against McKinney

Here are some excerpts from the response to the allegations against McKinney, provided by her Green Party Presidential campaign:

While serving in her sixth term in the House of Representatives, Cynthia McKinney was one of only a handful of the Democrats who participated in the proceedings of the U.S. House Select Bipartisan Committee to Investigate the Preparation for and Response to Hurricane Katrina Rep. McKinney chose to defy Speaker Pelosi's decision (not to participate) because she felt that the issues that would arise out of any investigation were too serious to ignore

She and her staff worked tirelessly with other legislators to craft an environmental bill that would address the damage, toxicity, homelessness, and safety for first responders McKinney and her staff worked long hours helping to write and promote the Congressional Black Caucus omnibus bill, a broad package designed to address the plight of the survivors, address the issues of housing and homelessness, provide funds for reconstruction, improve future federal responses to natural disasters McKinney also invited survivors and experts to testify before the committee at a hearing titled "Hurricane Katrina: Voices from Inside the Storm."

Following the flood, Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco issued a state of emergency and issued "shoot to kill" orders to curb unrest and reported looting. Subsequently, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, backed by Blanco, declared martial law The report also cited numerous national news media stories of civilians being shot by police Then you have statements being made by law enforcement officials and government officials . . . that no identification is going to be made of what actually killed anyone. In fact, Frank Minyard, the Orleans Parish Coroner, told the Chicago Tribune that "If you murdered somebody in those days, you are probably going to get away with it."

These quotes were repeated in McKinney's 70-page report which her staff prepared, and which was included in its final report, titled "A Failure of Initiative." This report covers many of her findings and issues that remain unaddressed to this day

During the course of Congresswoman McKinney's focus on the victims and their mistreatment, she and her staff received reports of illegal use of force and shootings against innocent citizens from multiple, unrelated sources, including reports of attempts by law enforcement authorities to conceal the evidence of their crimes.

Although a few of these informants were willing to testify in public or go to the press, most refused to go on record for fear of retaliation. Transcripts of the testimony of the survivors at the December 6, 2005 hearing reveal a common theme about military and police abuses of ordinary citizens in a crisis, including threats to kill. After that hearing, more reports were received that warrant further Congressional investigation. Because these stories came from multiple, unrelated sources Congresswoman McKinney did not dismiss them out of hand. She attempted to verify them with limited resources, to speak out about them, and to get Congressional attention through the Katrina Committee hearings. Many aspects of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, despite numerous House and Senate committee hearings, remain unanswered and unresolved, including any final or reliable body counts


CONCLUSIONS

During her 12 year Congressional career, Cynthia McKinney was a fearless and tireless voice for justice and progressive government policies. She never shrunk from harsh criticism of the most powerful individuals in our country when she thought it was warranted. Consequently, her Congressional career was destroyed (twice) largely through the efforts of those who had reason to fear her.

Was she overzealous in her remarks about potential nefarious government activities during Katrina, and the need for investigation of those alleged activities? I cant say for sure. But we do know two things with absolute certainty: There was very good reason to be highly suspicious of our government during that period of time; and, Cynthia McKinneys enemies will use every opportunity given them to blow way out of proportion anything that she says.

Our country needs people like President Obama, skilled progressive politicians who exercise enough political caution to get elected to high government office. Even though they sometimes hold their tongue in situations where some of us wish they wouldnt, that is sometimes the price that has to be paid in order to ascend to positions where a great deal of good can be accomplished.

But our country also desperately needs voices like Cynthia McKinneys voices that will not shrink from protecting the vulnerable or criticizing the powerful. Her words and actions go a long way towards helping to maintain the sanity of those of us who desperately long to hear the truth spoken about grave abuses of power by high government officials. If McKinneys statements about government activity during Katrina were out of line and Im not saying that they were that doesnt change the fact that our country needs a lot more people like her.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. She's not crazy - she's just deluded if she thinks she can do anything about what she discovered
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Maybe she thought we would help her
This isn't a monarchy, with a favored/less favored court of royals.

Citizens holding their elected Representatives accountable is how it's supposed to work.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. No but it is not a Democracy
We like to pretend it is

But there are folks who will go as far as kill a president or senator if they feel threatened.

It would be nice to catch those folks, but we haven't

She's a modern day Don Quixote

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. You know, it's hard to decide which is better
permanently silenced or turned into a loon that no one pays attention to.

The permanent silence seems less painful, almost kinder.

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. I say push for the positive change that you can
Go for the chinks in the imperialist armor if you will

Segregation was one chink

Just make sure your pursuits are ethical, and not moral
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. "make sure your pursuits are ethical, and not moral" ???
Moral is ethical
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. Not necessarily
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 07:07 PM by Taverner
Morality has nothing to do with logic

Ethics have everything to do with logic

"Do onto others as you would have them do unto you" is ethics

"Homosexuality is an abomination" is morality
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
56. Not necessarily
You have posted what some view as morality - that does not make it moral and doesn't alter the very basic fact. Ethical is a synonym of moral - your use of the words or your understanding of their meaning (as well as other's use and understanding) doesn't change their meaning or give credence to your position.

1moral Listen to the pronunciation of 1moral
Pronunciation:
\ˈmȯr-əl, ˈmr-\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin moralis, from mor-, mos custom
Date:
14th century

1 a: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical <moral judgments> b: expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c: conforming to a standard of right behavior d: sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e: capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>2: probable though not proved : virtual <a moral certainty>3: perceptual or psychological rather than tangible or practical in nature or effect <a moral victory> <moral support>
morally Listen to the pronunciation of morally \-ə-lē\ adverb
synonyms moral , ethical , virtuous , righteous , noble mean conforming to a standard of what is right and good. moral implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong <the basic moral values of a community>. ethical may suggest the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness, fairness, or equity <committed to the highest ethical principles>. virtuous implies moral excellence in character <not a religious person, but virtuous nevertheless>. righteous stresses guiltlessness or blamelessness and often suggests the sanctimonious <wished to be righteous before God and the world>. noble implies moral eminence and freedom from anything petty, mean, or dubious in conduct and character <had the noblest of reasons for seeking office>.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moral
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. No - there is no absolute determiner for morality
But for Ethics, there is

Hence, the two ARE NOT synonyms


------


I invite you to watch a movie some time

"Election" with Matthew Broderick

Its a funny movie, and basically discerns, through the movie, the difference between Morals and Ethics

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. The two are synonyms - do you think your understanding of words
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 07:49 PM by merh
can alter long accepted definitions? Just because you "say so" makes it so?

I consider myself a moral person, what you have listed as an absolute "morality" is disgusting and is not morality in my book or in the book of those I know that are ethical.

synonyms moral, ethical , virtuous , righteous , noble mean conforming to a standard of what is right and good. moral implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong <the basic moral values of a community>. ethical may suggest the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness, fairness, or equity <committed to the highest ethical principles>. virtuous implies moral excellence in character <not a religious person, but virtuous nevertheless>. righteous stresses guiltlessness or blamelessness and often suggests the sanctimonious <wished to be righteous before God and the world>. noble implies moral eminence and freedom from anything petty, mean, or dubious in conduct and character <had the noblest of reasons for seeking office>.


I suppose your attempts to pervert and distort the words are a perfect example as to how other humans pervert what is "moral".

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Have you ever taken a Philosophy 101 course?
First thing you learn is there is a difference.

True, according to Merriam-Webster there is no difference

Just as they don't discern the difference between the many words for snow the Eskimo use

Just as they don't differentiate between Agape, Phileo and Eros when defining love

But I assure you there is a difference
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Yes, I actually passed the course along with several others.
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 08:08 PM by merh
The difference comes from the small mind of those who try to define them according to their small minded views, much like what you are trying to do. Ethics, as commonly used, would be the system of rules passed to govern the morals of the people to be governed.

The two aren't different, the approach to the two by individuals may differ but the definitions are basically the same.

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. Look, did someone forget to change your diapers or something?
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 08:16 PM by Taverner
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-...

"The difference between ethics and morals can seem somewhat arbitrary to many, but there is a basic, albeit subtle, difference. Morals define personal character, while ethics stress a social system in which those morals are applied. In other words, ethics point to standards or codes of behavior expected by the group to which the individual belongs. This could be national ethics, social ethics, company ethics, professional ethics, or even family ethics. So while a persons moral code is usually unchanging, the ethics he or she practices can be other-dependent.

When considering the difference between ethics and morals, it may be helpful to consider a criminal defense lawyer. Though the lawyers personal moral code likely finds murder immoral and reprehensible, ethics demand the accused client be defended as vigorously as possible, even when the lawyer knows the party is guilty and that a freed defendant would potentially lead to more crime. Legal ethics must override personal morals for the greater good of upholding a justice system in which the accused are given a fair trial and the prosecution must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The prosecution and court must also deal with the difference between ethics and morals. In some cases past actions of the accused might resonate with the current charge, but are kept out of evidence so as not to prejudice the jury. In a sense, the prosecutor lies by omission in representing the case, never revealing the prejudicial evidence. The same prosecutor, however, would likely find it reprehensible to fail to tell a friend if her date had a potentially dangerous or suspect history.

Another area in which ethics and morals can clash is at the workplace where company ethics can play against personal morality. Corporate greed that blurs its own ethical lines coupled with unreasonable demands on time can lead to having to chose between a stressful, demanding and consuming work ethic, and family obligations seen as moral obligations to spouse and children. Conversely, people lose jobs every day because of poor personal morals, employee theft being a common reason for dismissal.

In society, we are all faced with the butting heads of ethics and morals. Abortion is legal and therefore medically ethical, while many people find it personally immoral. Fundamentalists, extremists, and even mainstream theists all have different ideas about morality that impact each of our lives, even if indirectly through social pressures or legal discrimination.

In the case of homosexuality, many believe it is morally wrong, yet some of the same people also believe it is unethical to discriminate legally against a group of people by disallowing them the same rights afforded heterosexuals. This is a plain example of ethics and morals at battle. Ethics and morals are central issues as the world strives to overcome current challenges and international crossroads. Hopefully, in the coming years, a growing understanding will lead to peaceful and productive solutions."

<SNIP>
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. Ethics are the rules established that reflect the morals.
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 08:47 PM by merh
I said that. I could get you a whole boat load of someone else's writings on the subject to prove my point. I thought you would find it rather pompus of me to rely on the thoughts of others. I see you like pompus and you rely on the thoughts of others, the sad thing is, those thoughts coincide with what I have said and not what you have said.

"Do unto to others" is a moral statement, the ten commandments would be the ethics given to govern a people.

Morals: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical.

Seriously, do you think anyone should take you seriously when you suggest that they watch a movie to better understand the definition of words and their usage in the real world.

Folks that consider homosexuality "an abomination" are not moral, they have just convinced themselves they are, just as you have convinced yourself that there is a difference between being moral and ethical.

The two words share the basic definition: principles of right and wrong. How they are viewed and twisted may make some folks consider them different, but that would be folks that think they own the moral high ground.




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AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #78
233. You have lost the argument a hundred fold because you are now becoming stupid
because your ego is preventing you from thinking.

The argument that your debater has presented is far superior to yours. You have become emotional and your ego is doing the talking
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #233
235. LOL, you are mistaken.
And you lecture me on ego. :rofl:

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #72
94. I disagree with that definition
I disagre with much of what is said there, but here is one prime example:

"Ethics point to standards or codes of behavior expected by the group to which the individual belongs."

That would tend to mean that the German Nazis were ethical because they were following the standards of their group. That's not my understanding of the usage of the term.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #94
156. That definition is accurate n/t
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #94
177. The analogy in your last line might be closer to situational ethics
ethics imply a more universal notion of right and wrong, a notion that has some sort of widespread common acceptance although it is not necessarily grounded in a religious or spiritual tradition(which would then be morality as opposed to ethics).
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #177
194. There doesn't seem to be any consensus on why they're different
You tell me that it's because morality implies a religious or spiritual definition. Others say it's that morality implies a universal definition of right and wrong, while ethics applies to the standards of society. I don't believe that either of those statements are correct. There are many millions of atheists who consider themselves moral but not in a religious or spiritual sense.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #94
291. Absolutely not - the violated the social contract
The ultimate sin at that - you will not kill

That is the core of the social contract, whether people agree with it or not
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #72
217. I was reading along, enjoying this discussion, until you got personal.
First one to get shirty loses, IMO. Pack up your diaper bag and run along!
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #217
292. You just don't get drunken posts do you?
Add alcohol, and things degenerate into poopee peepee talk
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #292
323. Ahh....there it is, then.
I can't see getting drunk and getting on the internet! It just doesn't seem like much fun to me!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #66
80. I agree -- Here is something that purports to explain the difference
"Ethics is concerned with how a moral person should behave. Ethical values are beliefs concerning what is morally right and proper..."

Whatever difference is reflected in that explanation escapes me entirely.

http://www.scribblers-ink.com/professional_ethics.html
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #80
87. It isn't often that someone will continually ignore the
accepted definition of words because of what they got out of a movie, but as is evident, it happens.

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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #80
174. It isn't all that complicated.
One has to do with generally accepted standards of behavior, the other has to do with right and wrong.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #174
190. So, were the German Nazis ethical because they followed generally accepted standards of
right and wrong for their group?
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #190
216. From what I understand of Nazi ideology...
...they would have considered themselves both ethical and moral. They really did believe they were superior and special.

Very rarely are the two at odds with each other within the same culture. I would say that early American slavery was one of those times. Most moral leaders in the New World (religious leaders and, oddly enough, ethicists) thought it was morally wrong, while those who set ethical standards (law enforcment, the legislature and the courts) thought it was fine, as long as they were well treated.

:shrug:

I think the two are so very similar that it makes it difficult to differentiate between them most of the time. They are like two separate roads that are "supposed" to lead to the same place, and most of the time they do, but not always.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #216
220. I think there will always be people who disagree with each other on what is moral and ethical
But I think the more important test in considering whether there is any difference between them is to ask a single person "Can you think of anything that you believe is moral but not ethical or vice versa?" I can't. Can you?
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #220
295. I see what you mean about that.
I don't know if that is possible or not. It would take an extreme amount of rationalization.

Take the slavery question as an example. If a person expresses an opinion that even though it's wrong, it's for their own good. In that case the moral and ethical questions are at odds.

It sounds like a troubling way to look at things. It isn't exactly irrational, it's more like it's extra rational. Like a way of justifying something that one knows is wrong.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #66
129. you win prize for best heading
morals and ethics. what if you mix sex and logic? what happens when logic gets horny and goes looking for quick satisfaction? the end. if that's the case you wouldn't want to power the logical side of the brain with sex energy. but that's what could happen if people learn sex with the hand connected to the logical side of the brain.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #62
151. Both of you need to understand connotation and denotation...
Denotation and Connotation

Denotation refers to the literal meaning of a word, the "dictionary definition." For example, if you look up the word snake in a dictionary, you will discover that one of its denotative meanings is "any of numerous scaly, legless, sometimes venomous reptilesKhaving a long, tapering, cylindrical body and found in most tropical and temperate regions."

Connotation, on the other hand, refers to the associations that are connected to a certain word or the emotional suggestions related to that word. The connotative meanings of a word exist together with the denotative meanings. The connotations for the word snake could include evil or danger.

http://www.eng.fju.edu.tw/English_Literature/terms/deno...
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #62
154. I very much enjoy a good debate. But when one of the debaters decides to attach the
other, then it is no longer a debate. I am surprised that anyone would debate with you.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #154
164. You like good debates so much that you take the time to attack me
how nice.

The comment you replied to was not an attack on the poster, it what was an observation as to the poster's distortions of simple words. The first attack came from him, not me. Direct your judgments where they belong or better yet, keep your comments to yourself.

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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #154
212. Yea, that surprised me too. Seemed unnecessary.
Other than that, it's been a good discussion here.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #212
225. Too bad some people just want to make trouble. nm
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #62
182. just becuse 2 words
are synonyms, does not imply they mean the same exact thing.

The other posters are right about these definitions, you are wrong.

Sorry.

:(



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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #182
206. Sorry, I disagree with you
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #41
149. Actually, ethics often come into conflict with and act as a brake on "logic".
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 11:33 PM by Ken Burch
Logical approaches to problems can often be, on a large scale, brutal and inhumane.

Some have been argue, with great political success, that it would often be "logical" to solve a particular problem by consigning a large group of people to death. It would never be ethical to do so.


And, as far as that goes "It's wrong to discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation" is also a moral statement. "Sexual orientation is unchangeable and thus discrimination, which has been imposed because of the belief that people could stop being gay if 'they just tried hard enough' and discrimination is a tool to make them 'try hard enough' is a waste of time" is, by contrast, a logical statement.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #41
219. You are getting pretend morality and morality confused. nt
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
47. What is "the positive change you can"? With big thinkin' like that we'd still have jim crow.
Most change has and will continue to be made by folks who push for it. And no, sorry, I don't think Barack Obama's presidency is "change" in any sense of the word. Sure, it shows that racism has eased up. But that's not Barack Obama's achievement. That's the achievement of those who stood for something at the risk of being unpopular--maybe even 'annoying' or labeled 'dangerous.' All those people called 'humorless' who demanded an end to those 'fun' racist jokes. All those academics and law professors who made 'ridiculous claims' that eventually sunk into accepted practice--claims like "'Courses called 'African-American Literature' and "African-American History" have the right to exist at any US university and it doesn't mean the end of Western Civilization." If everyone stopped every time someone was told the "truth" wasn't possible, the world would be in more shit than it already is.

Sorry, McKinney isn't "tilting at windmills." She's tilting at real problems in a political world that only ever tilts at windmills.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. You don't get it do you?
History is a series of measures that, despite our despotic nature, free us from tyranny.

It is the irony of humanity.

Sometimes we may revert to authoritarianism, but in the long long long run, it will be freedom that will prevail
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #51
167. you don't get it
Freedom would never prevail in the long run if no one fought for it.

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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
75. the "Kassandra of Troy" treatment
She will speak the truth, but no one will believe, even when it comes to pass.

People don't like it when they're made to feel uncomfortable by the truth; the first thing they do is to paint the truth teller as crazy as a means by which to get over on those who haven't made up their minds.

I'm not surprised by her treatment, both in the press and here.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #75
83. You know, the Cassandra analogy is an astutely brilliant one
That is EXACTLY what the situation is like.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #75
125. I thought of the Cassandra analogy while I was reading the OP.
It seems very appropriate.
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
70. Not unlike, oh, say...
Dennis Kucinich...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. That's some model of democracy you have going there.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
44. We haven't been living in a Demcracy for a while
It never has been - there have always been qualifiers

Check out "People's History" by Zinn

But we just have to shoot for victories where we can...any other option is futile
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #44
153. I started to read "People's History" but it was too much fucking reality for me to handle.
I think i will join a church and hide from reality.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #44
168. you observe life
Observe and analyze life to your heart's content. That is relatively safe, and requires nothing of you.

The rest of us will live it.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #44
186. We can "shoot for victories where we can" without shooting down people who dare dream of more.
We doom ourselves if we limit ourselves to "the possible". That always ends up making even "the possible" impossible. The Nineties prove my point.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #186
316. yes
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 04:17 PM by Two Americas
Out friend looks backwards, and now that it is popular to do so - and most importantly safe and risk-free to do so - supports Dr. King and then uses him, by seriously distorting the historical record, to make an argument for conservatism today.

One would think that the pervasive popularization of the phrase "I have a dream" would in itself be sufficient to contradict and demolish our friend's argument. But defense of right wing ideas while claiming to not be a right winger, which dominates modern literalism, has always required people to hold two contradictory sets of ideas in their minds simultaneously. That "enemy within the gates" phenomenon, as FDR called it, has always been the greater threat from the right wing then the Republicans are.
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
54. Was Dr. Martin Luther King deluded also since he tried to change the status quo?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. MLK jr did not attack windmills
Cynthia McKinney is attacking windmills

Obama will knock down more windmills than she ever did, because he is on the inside, and affecting change

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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #60
97. Cynthia McKinney WAS on the inside when she started attacking windmills.
Just sayin'.

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #97
289. She went about it totally wrong
Instead of being outraged, and standing alone...she should have gone for specific 9/11 inaccuracies, and worked from there.

Instead she played martyr, and we won no ground.

Conyers and Kucinich took the approach I suggested, and true, they did suffer in many ways, this issue has more of a chance of coming to light.

Just think about how crazy Bev Harris went with the whole Diebold thing. She was right, but because she was crazy, it almost ruined that investigation.

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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #289
294. that is exactly what they said about Dr. King
Your argument is a re-tread from the 60's and was used against Dr. King.

Let me ask you a couple of questions:

Why was Dr. King in Memphis? Do you know?

What was the last campaign Dr,King planned and did not live to see happen? It failed, by the way. Tilting at windmills, no doubt, and going about it the wrong way.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #294
296. Major Difference: who suceeded and who failed?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #296
298. easy to see in hindsight
It is easy to buy into the mass media mythology and feel-good stories, and imagine that you know something about what happened. Anyone can pick the "winners" once the game is over, especially if you let popular media create the narrative for you. It is easy to now fancy yourself to be on Dr. King's side, when it requires no risk to do so.

I am telling you that the exact same arguments you are using here were used against Dr. King.

Dr. King's last campaign failed, and we are still paying the price today. We never hear about that campaign, because it does not fit with the safe and benign and self-congratulatory mythology the media has created around Dr. King's work.

So...

Why was Dr. King in Memphis?

What was Dr. King's last campaign?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #298
310. Thing is Dr King (like I've said before) had a plan, and he organized
McKinney may have been right, but she had no plan and she did not organize. It was her alone against the windmill.

If Dr. King can be accused of attacking windmills, he did so with the support of thousands. Thousands that he had organized beforehand.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #310
311. whatever
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 02:35 PM by Two Americas
It takes a wide variety of contributions of different kinds from many people. This "he had a plan," and "he had a following" line of reasoning is just your latest grasping at straws in your effort at discrediting people.

This is such a reactionary argument - "oh I agree with the goals, but you are not going about it the right way." I promise you that this exactly same argument was used against Dr. King.

You are trashing the work and reputation of Dr. King in your attempts to recast him as some moderate and practical establishment figure who went about things in an acceptable way. Crediting him merely for for being a success, while looking in hindsight from your safe vantage point, discounts and ignores the struggle and the opposition - opposition that was based on the same reasoning and was phrased the same way that you reason and phrase your opposition here to us.

So you attack McKinney, you trash out the work of Dr. King, and you oppose all here who agree with McKinney. Given that, I am sure you can understand why we might question just which side you are on in the struggle.



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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #311
312. OK let me give you an example, since you still haven't got it
Person #1: Wants to strike the letter "L" from our alphabet. He goes out on a street corner and screams the evils of the letter "L." Let's just say he's an English Teacher even. But no one listens to him.

Person #2: This person isn't even an English teacher, but this person also wants to strike "L" from the alphabet. This person, instead of just screaming into the air, organizes a letter writing campaign, works with other people, some English teachers, some not, to put pressure on the Dictionary people to eliminate "L." Risks life and limb because people named Larry, LeRoy and Leslie really don't like this idea.

Who do you think is going to be more successful?

Who would you label 'crazy' (notwithstanding the logic of dropping "L" from the alphabet)?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #312
315. no idea
You are missing the point. No one is arguing against organizing and planning. You are using that argument as a stalking horse to make an ideological argument in a deceptive and covert way.

In your little scenario, it takes both. It always has, as even the most superficial knowledge of history would tell you.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #315
331. No - simply put talk and rant is worthless
And that is all Cynthia McKinney is
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #60
137. King attacked the biggest windmill in this country, equality.
And he was an outsider. If Obama does as well, it will be because someone steps up to be his King.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #137
281. That was not a windmill
That was a clear goal with clear aims

They stated exactly what they planned to do, did it and then told everyone how they did it

That is not attacking windmills
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #60
169. yes he did
You are looking in the rear view mirror. Hard to see where you are going when you do that.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #169
228. No he set a clear, measurable and attainable goal
Going after a windmill would be something akin to "ending racism in all forms"

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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #228
230. Actually King's most famous quote does essentially call for an end to racism in all forms.
Edited on Sat Jan-31-09 01:01 PM by Bjorn Against
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #230
231. His speeches, yes
But what he did - the marches, the lobbying and pushing legislation

Providing on the ground support for the students

That is completely measurable and those are his greatest successes

Standing on a mountain and shaking your fist against evil does nothing
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #231
232. What he did was all aimed at the larger goal of ending racism and violence.
At the time of King's activism many people would have accused him of standing on a mountain and shaking his fist, and virtually no one would have thought his goals were "clear, measurable and attainable". In fact I don't think even King himself believed that his goals were attainable, but he knew that whether they were attainable or not he needed to fight for justice. King did a lot more than simple lobbying and marches, he committed acts of civil disobedience and went to jail, eventually he even sacrificed his life for the cause. He knew there was a good chance he would be assassinated, and yet he kept on doing what he was doing because he knew this was a cause that he would need to keep fighting for until the day he died. King was not someone you would call pragmatic, he was an idealist and he fought for his ideals no matter how many times people told him he was being unrealistic.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #232
234. Yes, yes and yes but - every act of civil disobience had a clear goal
And the way he accomplished the big ones, was by working on the smaller ones. Organize a march in Selma, for example - with a stated goal of getting media attention. "The Whole World is Watching" became the chant at many of these.

Basically, I'm saying he was a tactician, not just shooting holes in the sky
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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #231
263. "Standing on a mountain and shaking your fist against evil does nothing."
Except inspire others to rebel, to march, to lobby, to push legislation.

When you step out of line in a small way you make it easier for others to step out of line in a more dramatic way. If others don't pick up the standard and run with it, shaking your fist at evil is still a measurable success.

Like McMurphy said, "I tried. At least I did that much."
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #263
279. Absolutely wrong
Without setting goals and setting measurable ones at that, you might as well be Don Quixtoe charging against those damn windmills.

Its good that Sucessful Leaders never did (Gandhi, MLK, OBAMA)

They used organization more than they just stood out and whined to the skies...
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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #279
319. So you're saying that the Norwegians who turned their backs on Nazi occupiers did nothing.
Or the people who egged GW Bush's car on Inauguration Day in 2000. The car kept going and he got eight years, after all.

Or the Shministim who are, without any measurable success, defying the Zionist war machine by wasting their best years in Israeli prisons. After all, many more people who joined up than resisted, and they're leading far more comfortable lives.

The nameless African-Americans in the racist South that wasted their time standing up for themselves, only to die anonymously because they were outnumbered by cowards.

You imply that people who charge windmills only do so to avoid attacking the giants. That's only true if you stop with windmills. But windmills can also be excellent practice for giants.

In any case, you need to make sure you understand the goals and resources of the person that is defying oppression before you dogmatically write off their effort as "charging those damn windmills". The fact that you don't understand or accept their goals doesn't mean they don't have any.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #231
270. ...it worked for Moses...
(...Sorry, it was there...)
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #231
293. just not true
You need to read about King's last months.

You could not be more wrong with your attempts at portraying Dr. King as a practical and cautious man who did not fight for the "impossible."
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #293
301. Sounds like Taverner is one of those folks who think MLK died peacefully in his sleep in 1963
You're accepting the "official" interpretation of King's life, taverner, the version where white society canonized MLK AFTER they killed him.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #60
179. The U.S. political and military establishment said Dr. King was attacking windmills
when he opposed the Vietnam War, when he made common ground with Cesar Chavez and poor whites, when he supported the Memphis garbagemen in their strike for dignity(the stance that led to his assassination) and when he organized a Poor People's March to bring the issue of poverty directly to Congress.

And actually, Dr. King was seen as attacking windmills when he ORGANIZED the Civil Rights movement.

Martin Luther King, Jr. was ONLY awarded "respectability" by the white establishment AFTER they had him killed.

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #179
282. They were wrong and he knew it
Just because someone thinks you are crazy doesn't mean you are

Then again, if you are crazy, people will sometimes follow you right off that cliff.

Stay away from McKinney's cliff, people
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #282
317. you can only say that with hindsight
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 04:24 PM by Two Americas
It is not relevant whether or not people are "tilting at windmills." The point is that the "tilting at windmills" argument has always been used to promote reactionary political ideas. Of course when windmill tilters succeed, you can no longer accuse them of tilting at windmills. So what?

You - or at least your ideological allies and forerunners - lost in your battle against Dr. King in some ways. So now you switch sides where he is concerned, but not without stripping the guts out of his career. So you changed sides to be with those you perceive as the winners, once the battle is over. Again so what? That brings no credit to you nor credibility to your argument.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #60
180. We need people on the inside AND on the outside.
President Obama wants the radicals and the dissidents and the committed activists to keep speaking out. He wants people speaking truth to power so that he can commit truth IN power. You're attacking the people President Obama doesn't WANT attacked.

We can't do it solely with insiders.

And if it hadn't been for Dr. King "attacking windmills", Barack Obama would never have been elected president. In attacking Cynthia(and, by extension, the whole Civil Rights protest/activist tradition)you're insulting Dr. King's memory and President Obama's intelligence.

You have got to accept that the enemy is the RIGHT, not the Left.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #180
318. of course
And it always starts with people clamoring on the outside. Always. Those who argue that there should be no clamoring from the outside, and that we should only support organized efforts with power and plans and leadership, well know that without there first being clamoring from the outside there will never be any organization or plan or leadership. They try to kill the plant when it is a seed, and then claim to be on our side because they say they would support the plant should it ever grow to maturity, and because they now support plants from the past that did grow to maturity.
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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #60
257. Privilege is a giant, not a windmill.
Edited on Sat Jan-31-09 04:36 PM by Cronopio
Racism is just one manifestation of the Privilege Principle.

The Bush administration's self-proclaimed right to prevent a full, official accounting of what happened on 9/11 is another.

MLK attacked, and McKinney is attacking, the same giant from different directions.

Also, the vast majority of the time, those who try to overthrow the Borg from the inside only get compromised and assimilated. Gorbachev is a "once in a blue moon" counterexample. Don't count on insiders being able to do the job that only outsiders have a chance at succeeding at.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
166. "do anything?"
Edited on Sat Jan-31-09 01:29 AM by Two Americas
By this criteria, every person who ever spoke out and fought for justice throughout history was deluded.

She is not deluded because she thinks she can accomplish something, rather it works the opposite way. All of us are having difficulty accomplishing anything because every time we speak someone sabotages any efforts at the thoughts getting a fair hearing, and so we cannot build solidarity. Calling people "deluded" is an effective tactic for accomplishing that goal of sabotaging the fight for justice.

I am sure that my critique of your post won't bother you, though, since I cannot do anything about what I discovered in your argument, and speaking out is a waste of time because words are powerless - right?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Haiti and the Impotence of Black America
http://www.counterpunch.org/mckinney03192004.html

March 19, 2004

Haiti and the Impotence of Black America
Roll Back this Coup, Mr. Bush
By CYNTHIA McKINNEY

Former Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney delivered this address March 6 at a UC Berkeley conference titled "The Role of Law & Policy: Africa, the Caribbean & the U.S." sponsored by the African-American Law and Policy Report.

Nowhere do we see the impotence of Black America played out before our eyes and those of the world as we now see in the case of Haiti. But let me add that it hasn't always been this way, and it doesn't have to be this way.

First of all, as I see it, the correct call is not just for investigation, but also for reinstallation. Just as the U.S., in the 1950s, launched its policy of rollback for communism, so too must Americans of good conscience call for the Bush gang of thieves to roll back the coup in Haiti.

If you will recall, the United States and Haiti have been in this exact same place before. Gen. Raul Cedras had stolen power in a coup against the democratically elected priest who worked in the barrios of Port-au-Prince. Haitian Americans in Florida and New York and elsewhere worked non-stop to reinstall Father Aristide to power.

The Republican Justice Department had just overseen the largest expansion of the Congressional Black Caucus since the passage of the Voting Rights Act as it forced Southern legislatures to draw districts that would allow rural Blacks finally to elect candidates of their choice. Black voters, with a massive turnout, had turned George Bush's father out of the White House and elected Bill Clinton instead.

So the stage was set on the inside and on the outside for a massive shift in U.S. policy toward Haiti, leaving the Republican antipathy for Aristide behind. This shift so infuriated at least one small group in white America that, in the Florida redistricting case, the plaintiff actually wrote that the increased strength of the Congressional Black Caucus had actually changed U.S. policy toward Haiti, and for that reason, among others, the size of the CBC had grown too large, thus the lawsuit against the district of Congresswoman Corrine Brown.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. Worth reading as a reminder
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. To me, she will always be the Beloved Cynthia McKinney.
:hi:

THE BELOVED CYNTHIA McKINNEY

April 11, 2006 1000 PST (FTW) - ASHLAND -Cynthia McKinney is a friend of mine. Until the day I die she will be a friend of mine. More than that, she will be a role model and an inspiration that I dont ever expect to be equaled, let alone surpassed. Full disclosure.

Out of several dozen Op-Eds, news reports and commentaries on the now-infamous so-called cop-slapping event of March 29th, I havent seen a single one that, from my perspective, got it right. So right up front, let me say that if I am forced to look at this one snapshot incident, divorced from context and history, then yes, my very good friend messed up. It shouldnt have become as big a deal as it has and she bears some responsibility for that. But if I look at the event as part of a continuum of the life of congress, or the life of this nation, and (no less importantly) of the life of this woman, things look and feel a whole lot different.

The virulent, spit-dripping, white, racist commentators from Boortz to DeLay and the oh-so-PC and dainty black Democratic pundits, columnists and pols who pick Cynthia McKinney apartpretending to defend her while putting her black butt on the E-Bay auction block for Novemberare actually allies. They both want her to go away. They both want the issues that have come too close to public recognition in this case to go away. Leaders from left and right, black or white, cannot bear the thought of actually looking deeper at what happened with Cynthia McKinney and what it means.

more...

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/041106_belove...
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
53. I remember reading this from
'from the wilderness.' I admire Cynthia. She has pissed off AIPAC...even Jon Stewart of The Daily Show' calls her 'crazy.'

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
82. She is really impressive
Thank you for the link.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you for this
Cynthia is a true patriot who has been targetted over and over for her speaking truth to power.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. I can see you admire her. I don't.
She's irrelevant and she was irrelevant in Congress. She wasn't even respected or supported by most of the CBC. And yes, I think she's off kilter- to put it kindly, and egomaniacal and prone to nailing herself to a cross.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. I hope you continue to tell us who and what is relevant, cali.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
36. some things should be obvious. I shouldn't have to point out
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 06:49 PM by cali
that Cynthia McKinney isn't relevant. Her letter to Obama means nothing to anyone but the small cadre of people who admire her. They wont' change anyone's mind. They won't further the prosecution of bushco. They won't do a damn thing.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Thinking your opinion should be obvious to everyone else is generally a mistake
and also, sometimes covered by insurance policies.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. well
said :rofl:
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
90. Snap up, Snap down and Two Snaps All The Way Around!
:fistbump:
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #42
202. ...do the Gecko and the Cavemen know that?
n/t.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #42
222. LOL
:rofl:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. By that kind of reasoning, political activists are irrelevant if they hold minority opinions
You must have a lot of contempt for most DUers.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #45
86. OH BOY --
:rofl:
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #45
162. Where to begin, where to begin...
:rofl:
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #45
252. Considering the poster's usual responses in threads
I'd say you are dead on accurate.

Great post on McKinney BTW.

Rp
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
215. If Cynthia McKinny wasn't relevant, we wouldn't have heard of her.
By speaking up and speaking out, she made a difference. Look at the discussion she inspired here. Agreement doesn't make relevance. You may disagree with her, but for others, her courage to stand up and speak her mind in the face of such hostility was and is inspiring. She obviously struck a nerve with people and that the thrust of her work has been for seeking the truth and helping people in often horrible situations, for that she has earned my respect. So I'll gladly take my place in that "small cadre" you so easily dismiss.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #215
304. right
The logic of the people attacking her here:

"Stop talking about her, because no one is talking about her!"

"You shouldn't care what she says, because no one cares what she says!"

"She is crazy because people like me say she is crazy!"

"The opinions of people who don't see her as crazy don't matter, because they don't see her as crazy!"

"Don't support her, because no one supports her!"

"If a person doesn't win, they must be wrong!"
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rjwin Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
46. The CBC is irrelevant
they also have been very busy lately, selling out...
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
48. If being off kilter was a respected and admirable trait, you would be a household name.
Unfortunately, your contagious influence and distorted pathological world view is limited to the suffering of DUers who might wonder if and or why you were banned from the freepers website, or what planet you came from, or how is it that you survived being dropped on your head so much as a child

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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
55. Any examples?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #55
88. I would say "no," since McKinney was a very active and EFFECTIVE legislator
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
183. Nobody's even heard anything from the guy who replaced her.
He's obedient to the leadership and silent(therefore devoid of passion or conviction, therefore useless as a Congressmember).

Nobody even knows the guy's there.

He knows his place and does what he's told.

That's what the DLC wanted. Do YOU see that as an improvement?

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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #183
324. Agreed
Both the DLC and the repukes liked the results. A polite Democrat that won't stand up.
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canichelouis Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
226. Your post proves a point already made here
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
330. really?
If the voices you claim are irrelevant really were, then why would you be so aggressive and relentless in attacking them? It is as though they were, oh I don't know - relevant and really important.

I never understood posts that say "this is not important! No one should be talking about this! No one cares about this! Don't look at this! This thread is stupid and not worth posting on!"

You have convinced me. McKinney must be extremely important and exceptionally relevant. Otherwise, why would so much time and effort be devoted to destroying her and anyone who defends her?

I think that where there is smoke there is fire. If you want to convince us there is no fire, I would stop throwing so much smoke at us around this.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. I really like and respect McKinney -- she was targeted for removal by the RW, and it worked
Even many on the Left sermonize and mock her -- just read any DU thread on her. She was effective and outrageous and refused to STFU.

I almost voted for her in November. I wish she would move to a district where she would be given the proper respect.

And no, she didn't assault a police officer. It was a total faux incident. They said they Had the assault on VIDEO. You think that wouldn't have been plastered all over the news if that was true? The Grand Jury didn't even indict her -- so, there was less against her then even a ham sandwich.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. she was hardly effective
whatever else she was, she was NOT effective as a legislator.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I believe she was effective -- you've already stated you don't like her
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. you may not grasp this, but just because I'm not a fan of hers
doesn't mean I wouldn't acknowledge her as an effective legislator had she been one. YOUR dislikes may keep you from doing that, mine don't.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. She was quite effective at making people talk about things they wouldn't otherwise talk about
To be effective at getting legislation through you need to take positions that the majority of Congress agree with, for this reason no legislator who takes positions which seriously challenge the status quo will ever be effective at getting their legislation through. There is more to bringing about change then simply getting legislation passed however, in order to get real change you have to get ordinary citizens to think about things from a different angle. Love her or hate her McKinney was very effective at making people talk, I think this was the goal that she set out to achieve and she has been very effective at achieving that goal.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Actually, it's more complex than that. you need to persuade
and frame and yes, sometimes compromise. Bernie Sanders was brilliant at doing that. And what did McKinney ever change? What concrete good did she ever make to the lives of her constituents or others in this country? McKinney really hasn't gotten enough people involved in a dialogue to have effected change that way either. She's simply had little impact on the national scene.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. We would not be talking about her if she did not have an impact.
I have no doubt that McKinney did persuade a good number of ordinary citizens, maybe she didn't change the minds of the members of Congress but she did inspire people on the streets. Face it if she didn't make an impact then you wouldn't even know her name, the very fact that so many people have an opinion on her proves that she did make an impact. You may not like the impact she made, but there are a lot of other people who do.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. that's a poor argument. That we're discussing her here
has no large meaning in the real world. And I doubt she's inspired very many people. She got tossed out of her own district- and sorry I don't buy any of the conspiracy theoris about her losing her seat.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. No your argument is a poor argument, you see people who are inspired by her and you ignore them.
Maybe you don't agree with her, but she did inspire you to get riled up about her. You clearly have a very strong opinion about her and that proves that she had an impact on you, it may not be a positive impact in your case but she has never looked to please everyone. There are many other people who do admire her, you can deny they exist all you want but you know that people would not still be talking about someone who has been out of office for a couple of years if she did not have an impact on them.

Oh and by the way, I never said anything about conspiracy theories so please don't start a strawman argument.
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
59. Republican crossover voters beat her in the primary---twice.
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
299. I found her to be a very good representative
I lived in her district at the time she was in congress. I once found myself butting heads with the federal government, and couldn't resolve the situation. A phone call to her office was returned five minutes later, informing me that the department in question would trouble me no more. And she was as good as her word.

But constituent services must not rate very highly on your scale of what makes a good representative.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #33
218. Did Sarah Palin have an impact?
We sure talked about her.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #218
224. Yes, Palin had a huge impact in fact.
In Palin's case it was a very negative impact impact in my opinion, but she get the religious right extremely motivated and that shows that she did influence a lot of people. There are people who have a positive impact and people who have a negative impact, but to say that a political figure who gets a lot of people talking about their politics does not have an impact is quite simply wrong.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #224
227. McKinney has a similar negative impact, then.
She inspires as much loathing and hatred on the right as Palin inspired on the left.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #227
229. Anyone who is fighting against the right-wing is going to piss the right-wing off.
The right-wing may view McKinney as having a negative impact, but they view everyone who stands up to them as having a negative impact. I can name other people who have inspired a lot of hatred and loathing on the right as well. The right-wing hates Barack Obama, they hate Michael Moore, they hated Martin Luther King when he was still alive, do I need to go on? Are you still going to suggest that people who inspire hatred and loathing on the right have a negative impact?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #30
198. We had a Republican Congress throughout her tenure
How much did ANY Democrat in Congress achieve in those years?

At most, some sanded off the jagged edges of the right-wing razor.

None actually got social advances through between '94 and '06.

There was no way to get Republicans to pass anything decent.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Exactly
We shouldn't measure effectiveness in just one way. There are many different ways to be effective. If we had a few more Congresspersons like Cynthia, Americans might know a lot more about what is going on in this country. That's why they had to do something about her.
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
69. Being effective in American politics means
Not pissing off the status quo, thus enabling you to be reelected without having their M$M wolves at your heals. But go ahead and use your line of thinking, take a look at what is going on in America (in case you hadnt noticed) and then enlighten us all as to how effective our effective and admirable politicians have been
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
89. I did vote for her
I campaigned for Obama and contributed to his campaign, and I was thrilled when he won. I would have voted for him had I lived in a state that could have made a difference in the election, but since I lived in Maryland I voted for my favorite candidate instead.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
201. I voted for her and would do it again in a skinny minute....
I wish the democratic leadership was FULL of Cynthia McKinneys!
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #201
266. I voted for her in the primary! Loved it.
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. I saw that YouTube clip when it first came out.
Too bad I didn't take a minute to archive it. You assume clips will hang around.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. kr
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. she was definitely the recipient of a large amount of propaganda
and i am still trying to figure out how we just kidnapped an elected leader of haiti, and no one really made a peep.

not sure what i think of her exactly, but if i judge her by the her enemies, she is a brave and good woman. the smear she has endured should be a crime.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. A Capitol cop went on record and reported that she was targeted.
He just said it, straight up.

And, I was working the ER news thread the morning of the last election and the trouble reports came rolling in early.

I don't know what happened with that election but I wouldn't bet my kid's life on the outcome.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
259. I hadn't heard that about the Cap until your post
No surprise.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. Not Just Right Wingers but Poser Democrats Who are Republicans
but too cowardly to admit it.

She represented ordinary people very well, as honestly as she could. She won't go away.... :)
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Some of the threads on HERE over the years about McKInney have sounded like FR
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. There is always a group of people that has to bash women who step out of the box.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
81. I'm sure you know the origin of "hystrical"
The more things change, the more they never change.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
200. TRUE FREAKIN' DAT!
It's all some McKinneyphobes can do to avoid calling her "uppity".
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #200
258. They DO call her "uppity" -- they just use a different word!
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #258
305. Gee, would that be a five letter word beginning with "c" and ending with "y"?
n/t.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #305
308. Hmmmmmm
Yes!
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. She committed the mortal sin of questioning Israel's role in 9/11
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 06:13 PM by burythehatchet
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Blue Dog Dominion Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. And Israel's role in 9/11 was?
Grabbing popcorn.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Start your own thread asking that question
It's rude to hijack threads...especially with a topic that will get it locked.
There is more than enough info on THIS site if you TRULY want an answer to your question.
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Blue Dog Dominion Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
68. Thanks for the laugh. I guess I R shtooopid
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Ani Yun Wiya Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #25
172. Who needs popcorn ?
Image one:

"Muslims" dancing in celebration in N.J. as towers collapse.

Image two:

These men are found to be "art students" working for a "moving company".

Image three:

The "movers" are traced and tracked and placed in custody somewhere in the midwest US.

Image four:

These "detainees" are important enough to warrant intervention by Tel Aviv.

Image five:

These citizens, some years later give an interview to Haaretz, bluntly stating their purpose as being

"to record the event".


I too would wonder about the nature of the stated country's involvement.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
49. not a mortal sin, just stupid conspiracy shit
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
63. Sounds like a pretty good reason for calling someone crazy to me.
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bottomtheweaver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
118. Are you sure? She raised important questions about 911
in the hearings she held but to my knowledge that wasn't one of them.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
132. JEWS DID 9/11!
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
208. Israel had no role in 9-11
Edited on Sat Jan-31-09 09:21 AM by LeftishBrit
And anyone who thinks otherwise is either a vile far right-winger, or under the influence of vile far-right-wingers.

So far as I know, McKinney never in fact suggested that it did (she was questioning her own government's role.)
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #208
267. When was the trial? I missed it. Who did it?
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Blue Dog Dominion Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #267
300. It happened while you were being fitted for a tin-hat
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
19. A Buddhist priest in Osaka once said to me
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 06:23 PM by Karenina
after I followed him at 3 lengths with my head bowed through the real neighborhood (not that it helped, my presence was indeed noticed) and had been properly seated, served tea and saki as we awaited our sukiyaki, "Ohhh Karenina, I worry sooo much about you. You are so direct. People cannot accept such truth from one such as you." He looked at me and began to laugh. I had been trying to be so erraaa.. inconspicuous :rofl: and controlled myself to several points below his decibel level as the tears flowed down my face. :rofl:

The beef was like butter... :9
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. What would happen if -- insert Tillie Olsen quotation here.
lol
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. Thanx for the tip!
:loveya:
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
52. another uppity, outspoken black woman here
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 07:27 PM by noiretextatique
:hi: yes, *some* people have a hard time hearing truth from us.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. And their numbers are LEGION!
:rofl: :loveya:
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #52
158. good thing too!
:-)

I'm diggin' this thread
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. She sould have been Obamas pick for SOS
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
34. There are a lot of things I've liked about her. There have also been
one or two things that made me go hmmmm. So I generally like her but I'm a little bit wary.

That being said, until I know she's a nut I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. I haven't read the letter she wrote that's out today, though. I guess I should go find that thread again now I'm back on the board.
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
38. Crazy is an easy label
for someone with the truth.
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
74. Precisely!
As soon as detractors use words like "crazy", "moonbat", "whacko", "nutjob", etc., I simply disregard anything they may have to say further.

They no longer have credibility.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #74
309. The Soviets sent dissidents to "mental hospitals"
(of course, these were prisons, but the idea was the same. Discredit the critic by arguing that she or he is nuts.)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
39. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
57. K&R thanks for not remaining silent n/t
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EraOfResponsibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
65. isn't she anti-semitic? n/m
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #65
91. Her father is -- I'm glad I'm not judged by what my father believes and says
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camera obscura Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #91
163. Did she disavow her fathers comments or the friend who said "put on your yarmulke and celebrate"?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #163
261. You already know the answer to that -- yed
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camera obscura Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #261
277. Citation? Anything?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #277
280. It is a FACT she did -- as mentioned several times in this thread
Give it a rest. You can have your own opinion, but not your own facts.

:eyes:
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camera obscura Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #280
297. Chill. All I want is a citation or quote somewhere. I have yet to see one.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #65
93. Tawanna Brawley! Tawanna Brawley!
OOPS! Wrong black person... 'Scusy! :yoiks:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
98. I doubt that very much.
Neocons call anyone who criticizes Israel "anti-Semitic", and she has done that a lot. That would be like calling me anti-American because I criticize the Bush administration.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
67. She was a breath of fresh air coming out of Georgia

I consider a friend of the people and the working class.

She gets an OK from me.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
71. K&R. I keep forgetting her replacement's name
:eyes: Coach something. What has he done so far besides fall in line?!
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
73. HEAR, HEAR! as my much discussed thread about McKinney/Kucinich/Sheehan
showed, there are a lot of people on here, even, who cannot stand McKinney and Sheehan.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/themartyred/6...
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
76. Glad to recommend! Sad to see so much McKinney-bashing by so-called 'liberals', though...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #76
244. Fortunately, they're in the minority
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
77. McKinney is a brave soldier in the war against despots. nt
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
79. She's a NEOCON propaganda magnet , they hate the truth.
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
84. K&R - the USA needs Cynthia McKinney back in Congress!
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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
85. So did BushCo remind us how many died in New Orleans?
You know like they did for 9/11 when Bush was also asleep at the wheel?
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
92. "no other member of Congress was hated... by right wingers"
I don't think she was actually hated or feared. More like laughed at and ridiculed.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. No, she was hated and feared -- you don't take out people you mock and scorn
Thanks for proving our point, though.

:eyes:
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #95
101. She took herself out for becoming a joke
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #101
265. Hard to do, because she wasn't a joke and she WAS targeted by teh RW
THAT is a FACT.

What are your "reasonings" for calling her a "joke"? It appears you've swallowed the RW lies hook, line, and sinker.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #92
99. Yeah, that's why they went after her House seat more than any other in Congress
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #99
104. Both parties target the most vulnerable
Do you think the right wing loves Ted Kennedy and that's why they really don't bother trying to unseat him.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. She was not vulnerable
She had a safe Democratic seat. They targeted her in the primry, replacing her with another Democrat, for which they required massive Republian cross-over -- Twice.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. Her district was heavily Democratic and as you said,...
was a safe seat for her had the Dems in her district stuck by Cythnia but they didn't and she lost.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #114
130. The argument that they targeted her seat because it was vulnerable is absurd
She won most of the Democratic vote in the primary, but Republicans were given marching orders to turn out and vote for her opponent in huge numbers, and that made the difference.

Anyhow, as has been pointed out, this is the same state where Max Cleland somehow lost his Senate seat in 2002, and analysis of those results strongly suggested that the touch screen machines were rigged. Georgia is all touch screens and without a doubt had the most corrupt elections in the country at that time.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #130
152. "She won most of the Democratic vote in the primary"
Same argument that the Hillary campaign made. That she won a "majority" of the Democratic vote and it was the states that allowed crossover voting or used the "undemocratic" caucus system that cost her the nomination.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #152
193. What on earth does that have to do with McKinney's election?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #108
116. On touch screens, no less. n/t
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bottomtheweaver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #116
122. The same machines that handed Saxby Chambliss his victory over Max Cleland
but any allegations of election rigging are nutty conspiracy theories. McKinney is crazy, that's all!
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
96. Oh, yes...the woman who practically called Al Gore a racist n/t
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. Link please
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. Here...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #102
107. Well, the source of that story was the Washington Times
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. I knew someone would find a way to discredit it...
How hard did you have to work to do that?

Oh, well. I do think Cynthia McKinney is batshit crazy and should be on meds. Just because she has done and said some things that many here support doesn't make her a sane person. She reminds me of my Aunt Portia who is as liberal as I am, but is as crazy as they come...and not in a good way either.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. Huh? Do you trust what you read in the Washington Times?
I don't know if she said it or not, but I'm certainly not going to believe it because the Washigton Times said it.

According to the article, she said it in response to a revelation that Gore had a quota on the number of black Secret Service members he could have guarding him. So the purpose of the article could have been to discredit Gore or McKinney or both. But I'm certainly not going to believe anything I hear from that piece of shit. Would you?
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #113
117. For one thing...I didn't get it from the Washington Times...
for another, I always thought she was batshit crazy even when she wasn't seeing a racist at every turn. Cynthia McKinney's got a history of behavior that I find mentally questionable.

Now, you and others may want to use her nuttery as a reason to scream 'oh, that's why we love her'. More power to you. Me...I still think she's batshit crazy and should be on meds.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #117
127.  "batshit crazy", "mentally questionable", and "should be on meds"...
you a psychiatrist? what's your diagnosis and justification?
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #127
139. You should ask everyone who has ever said the same thing about someone else...
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 10:52 PM by cynatnite
:rofl:
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #139
196. poor response. it's no surprise you don't notice....
...your own self-exposure.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #117
131. It doesn't matter that you didn't get it from the Washington Times
That's where the story originated.

No, we don't love her because we think she's crazy. For the most part we believe that the stories of her craziness are grossly exaggerated or entirely fabricated.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #131
140. The story actually originated from McKinney herself...
she's the one who wrote those remarks when she was in congress. As I understood it she posted it on her site when she was with congress. She never denied it either.

You support her because of the things she has said and done. That's fine. I just happen to think she's still batshit crazy even though on some things I do agree with her on.

There are other people who feel the same on many things and have all their marbles together.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #107
112. Question...
What do you think about the last portion of that article I posted?

And by disseminating her more fanciful messages in obscure media outlets, McKinney insulates herself somewhat from the chunk of her constituents who would be outraged by her antics. She backs down slightly when the mainstream media come calling. After her comments about Gore's "Negro tolerance level" were posted on her House Web site, she disclaimed them and canceled four scheduled interviews with the Associated Press to discuss the incident. She employed a similar strategy in '96 when her father repeatedly called her opponent a "racist Jew." (When asked about his comments by the New York Times, he replied, "He is a racist Jew, that's what he is, isn't he?") After ignoring his comments for a week, she distanced herself from them and "fired" him from her campaign, though he had no formal role.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #112
120. cyn, it's an obvious hit piece. Cynthia issued an apology for what he said
and she let him go. She didn't just "distance herself". The article has a bias that is very clear.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #120
123. I should have emphasized the beginning of the paragraph...
but I didn't want to be accused of taking anything out of context. She had posted her remarks about Al Gore on her site when she was with congress. She wrote those remarks herself. That is just one of many reasons why I think she doesn't have a full deck.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #123
142. Did you see those remarks on her web site?
Or are you just going by what the article said?
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #142
146. Oh, for shits sake...
She wrote it back in 2000 and the Gore campaign responded to it. It's common knowledge and has been around for some time now. If you google it the RW sites like to make hay out of it, but if you sort through them the more mainstream press has also reported on it as well. It's a part of a couple of bios on her that I've read, too.

If you think there is a massive conspiracy to discredit her over comments that she has never denied writing and that has been widely reported...well, maybe you and her both need to be on the same meds.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #146
159. It's not about "massive conspiracy" but about spin.
Most dissenters are subject to massive spin. Howard, Dennis, Cynthia, even mild mannered Russ Feingold, even Gore himself and Gore on many occasions. Remember when he was giving speeches and the media spun him as unstable, angry, emotional and fringe?

It's not conspiracy. It's the way dissent is filtered in this country, period.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #146
191. Common knowledge?
It's common knowledge that Bush got more votes in Florida than Gore in 2000. It's common knowledge that the official story of 9/11 is correct. It's common knowledge that JFK was shot by LHO. It was common knowledge before the Iraq war that Iraq had WMD and posed a grave danger to us. Just because something is common kmowledge doesn't mean it's true.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #112
134. That article began by mocking her for daring to insinuate that the Bush administration had advance
warning of the 9/11 attacks:

After all, she's not the first liberal to spin the fantasy that President Bush had advance knowledge of the Sept. 11 attacks, which McKinney insinuated last month.

Fantasy that Bush had advance knowledge of the 9/aa attacks? Even those who don't believe in MIHOP or LIHOP know that he had advance warning.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #102
290. I had to stop reading that garbage after the first paragraph...
If the first paragraph is full of shit, how do they expect me to read further?

"After all, she's not the first liberal to spin the fantasy that President Bush had advance knowledge of the Sept. 11 attacks, which McKinney insinuated last month during a radio interview with a Berkeley, Calif., station."

Fantasy? Really? A nice documentary has been made about all the information Bush had prior to the 9/11 attacks:
http://www.eenvandaag.nl/index.php?module=PX_Story&func...

If Slate think they have to slam McKinney for speaking the truth about this, I don't need to read the rest of their filth.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
103. Cynthia McKinney is a huge threat to the right wing-criminal corrupters . . .
and that's why they have been after her non-stop!

She's great --- and I remember when she first came to Congress --- in sneakers with

gold laces!

She was charming then --- but the years of being out there alone on truth certainly

adds up to a lot of pressure on her. I'm glad she is now with the Greens.

But, who knows, she may decide to run again for Congress.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #103
175.  she's no threat whatsoever to them, and never has been
and it's largely myth that anyone went after her- a myth she created.
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
105. The way that the capital police stalked her was a disgrace!
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Every Man A King Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
106. One is not allowed to question the great state of Israel
in the brainwashed USA
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
110. The "From the Wilderness" article was impressive. I've been a fan of Cynthia's since
the 911 questions she asked, but I did see that video where she claimed all those prisoners were murdered and buried in the swamps. It was surreal.

Up until that time I had thought about voting for her because I figured any Democrat would be Republican light, but alas I relented and voted for our President.

Cynthia is a treasure, but she does have her moments.

I wish there were more like her in Congress.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #110
121. I voted for her
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

After I heard the rumors about the 5000 dead bodies. But after looking into it and finding she didn't actually say that -- just that she heard claims to that effect and thought it should be investigated, it seemed a lot less shocking than the impression I initially had when I heard it the first time.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #121
135. I remember that when I heard her comments I thought that she should have done some
more investigating and verification before she gave any credence to the story. It was something that should have gotten some serious attention had they been able to produce more than a couple of people claiming to have seen it or having heard about it from someone else. But based on what information she related at the time it seemed to be more of a publicity-generating comment than a verifiable claim.



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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
111. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!
I get so sick & tired of the McKinney fear-mongerers going around trying to discredit this courageous woman. Anyone that has actually followed her speeches before congress would see how much sense she made, and how she was ALWAYS trying to warn Americans about the horrible corporatocracy running the U.S., and all of the trillions they were stealing from the American taxpayers. She was prescient in understanding that we were going to end up where WE ARE TODAY!!

Thank you TFC for posting this. I don't care how many conservatives on DU try to discredit McKinney. The rest of us know a patriot when we see one.
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rucognizant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #111
138. Absolutely!
I recognized her voice, on Cspan, even when I was in the other room........................so I find it hard to believe that the Captital police who saw her come & go every day, failed to recognize her because of a new hairdo!
I alienated my entire town these past 4 years................by speaking the truth. Until the woke up! Now they couldn't be nicer!
The woman who works in the butcher shop was on a rant about how awful Boener is today!
4 years ago the owner of the market threatened to call the police if I didn't stop talking politics at the register!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #111
236. You're quite welcome
Cynthia doesn't deserve this kind of treatment.
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bottomtheweaver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
115. Bushler and Cheney plunged the entire world into poverty and McKinney is crazy?
By the way I saw that McKinney clip and I think the right wing rag is embroidering. She basically said this was something she'd been told. She didn't go into detail and she didn't claim it was true beyond the fact that she'd heard it.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
119. Cynthia was also the only Congress critter
to speak at the Sept 24, 2005 anti-war march. My jaw dropped when I found myself only a few feet from her, and the only thing I could sputter was to thank her for standing with us.

I have much admiration for Cynthia McKinney. Always will.
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #119
165. She was keynote speaker at the election reform Nashional Conference April 05
Folks call it the "Nashional Convention" 'cause it was held here in Nashville.

The very first national ER conference after the 2004 theft



I got to speak with her a bit.

She ain't crazy except maybe as a fox

Awesome fighter we have in Cynthia!



Thanks for the long needed thread on this, TFC

Two or three folks that I love to see slapped down left with their tails between their legs

She has been easy to tell the progressives from the regressives
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
124. She's not crazy.
Neither are you.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
126. I think she got caught up in the unsubstantiated stories she heard

There are plenty of gruesome rumors about Hurricane Katrina, and many are due to the effects of fear and stress.

A mass grave of 5,000 people would be damn hard to hide, even if you weren't looking for it. How many times do you hear that people are on a hike and discover a body? And people just don't "disappear" unless there is general terror kept on the population. Such as: people "disappeared" in Chile or the Soviet Union because you couldn't inquire about them without danger of disappearing yourself. Of 5,000 people, they would have relatives, they would have friends.

Plus the Bush Administration would have had to organize this mass execution as it saw the hurricane bearing down. As we know about the Bush Administration, it couldn't organize a softball game.

It also takes more than one bullet each to kill 5,000 people. It couldn't have been that efficient. No, she just talked about the worst rumor she heard.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #126
136. But she didn't claim it was true -- She just claimed that that's what she had been told in her
role on the committee investigating it -- and she thought it ought to be investigated further.
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Sonicmedusa Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
128. Cynthia McKenny is my hero
Seriously, having a variety of parties in this country and economy will make us all winners.

We should all work for "Change" or "Shame on US".


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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
133. If there were more "crazy" Cynthia McKinney and Dennis Kucinich types in Congress
Bush wouldn't have gotten away with half the stuff he did.

I truly believe that a lot of the Democratic leadership are just playing a game of shirts and skins. They're yuppie liberals, fine on behavioral issues but just as pro-corporate and war-mongering as the average Republican. If the Dems had united in putting up SERIOUS opposition to Bush, put their message out to the American people by guerrilla means, and stood their ground, we'd be living in a much different country today.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
141. She's Downright Bonkers. Beyond Crazy. Completely Delusional And Whacked Out Of Her Mind.
No, our country doesn't need voices like hers. No one does. The world would be a better place if the insanely irrational and deluded just kept their ignorant yaps shut.

Someone needs to give that woman some seriously strong medication.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. Why doesn't it surprise me in the slightest that you think that?
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. Because I'm Objective And Sane And Generally Always Spot On In Speaking The Truth And What's Right?
She's a total nutcase.
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B o d i Donating Member (543 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #144
148. Can't Stop Laughing!!! Thank You For The Funniest Post I've Seen In Weeks!!!
nt
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #148
184. Definite DUzy material.
n/t.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #144
181. Y'know, sentences like "I'm Objective And Sane And Generally Always Spot On
In Speaking The Truth And What's Right"? Are generally considered syptoms of various disorders listed in the DSM-IV.

Sort of like "My Name Is Elmer Fudd. Millionaire. I Own A Mansion And A Yacht".

or "Every Day, In Every Way, I Am Getting Better And Better".

If you're sure you're "sane" that's usually a sign you need therapy, fast.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #181
213. But he can detect obviousness!
One of OMC's many super powers...

Able to slap a grandma at olive garden in the blink of an eye.

Can project frantic, krypto-fascist comments from his fingertips.

Able to alienate everyone to the left of Liebermann in a single post!



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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #144
192. No, that's absolutely the wrong reason
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #141
176. if only you had used more synonyms and stronger statements
then your "argument" would have been more convincing, completely credible, and totally persuasive.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #176
214. ROFL
Maybe he works for Roget's?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #141
178. You do recall, however, that basically everyone who's taken the risk of speaking out
when it wasn't popular, to advance an idea that was right but that others in that person's time were scared of, was referred to as, essentially "insanely irrational and deluded". It was said of Jefferson by the English(and the Federalists)by the abolitionists by the slaveowners, of the the founders of unions by the bosses, of peace activists by the war machine, of MOST OF US by the now-defeated other party.

If nobody thinks you're insane, you can't be saying anything that matters.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #178
242. Great point
Martin Luther King was reviled by large segments of our population (including the FBI) in his day.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
145. Kucinich proved one didn't have to bring the crazy when questioning authority

McKinney wasn't worth it and I'm glad she's gone.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #145
245. Bring the crazy? What do you mean by that?
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
147. K&R I think she has gotten a raw deal.
I think she is a hell of a lot smarter than the media and others give her credit for.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
150. How to tell which politico has actually gone off the reservation:
s/he's the one the big shots & their mouthpieces label "crazy".

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #150
185. Why would you even want a representative that was quiet and obedient?
Such a person couldn't possibly do anything that was of value.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
155. Right or wrong, we need more people like Rep Kinney. nm
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
157. An ancient tactic used against intelligent, outspoken, courageous people, especially women....
It is well-honed from the days of the inquisition and the witch hunts. The KKK was able to refine it to use under the cover of race and religion. We should know enough by now to immediately spot anyone who is being labelled this way as speaking out on something that needs to be heard but that no one wants to hear.

People like this are crucial to democracy and to any sort of functioning community.

We silence or ignore their words at our peril.


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jonestonesusa Donating Member (630 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #157
161. Amen to that...
Cynthia McKinney is a courageous politician that has suffered a great deal for being part of the 9/11 truth movement and calling out American racism and imperialism as she sees it. We need more politicians who are unbought and unbossed as she is. The number of sheeple here on DU who parrot the right wing view of McKinney being "batshit crazy" (my personal favorite slur on this thread) is a damn shame. Small wonder we get sham democracy with the small mindedness we're showing here.
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DirtyDawg Donating Member (594 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
160. I didn't read all these, but the one...
...issue that really started the attacks on Cynthia was her outspoken support for Palestinians in their quest for fair play from Israel. She was an early-on champion of Palestinian rights and it made her a lightening rod for AIPAC and the rest of the Jewish lobby. Like Jimmy Carter with his 'Peace or Apartheid' which stirred up the attacks and claims of antisemitism, Cynthia McKinney can point to the forces arrayed against her in her two failed bids for re-election. In both instances, her opponents were well-financed by Jewish donors from across the country. Her dad, Billy McKinney, came under harsh criticism when he said, 'It's the damn Jews', when asked why his daughter got beat in 2002. Word was that a prominent Atlanta Jewish businessman - not in Cynthia's district, mind you - was the coordinator of the money being funneled into her opponents campaign in 2006 with UPS and FedEx trucks delivering envelopes of cash day and night from AIPAC sources across the country. They were determined to see her defeated and the media campaign was just part of the deal. They even made sure that Democrats that they had 'on the take', like John Lewis, did not come out in support of Ms. McKinney. As Carter said, if a politician speaks out against Israeli treatment of Palestinians, they do so at his/her own risk.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
170. disgusting witch hunt
"Crazy bitch" is the modern equivalent of "evil witch."

I am disgusted by some of the responses on this thread.

Repeating over and over again that someone is "crazy" - and that campaign was created and promoted by the most bigoted right wing mouthpieces in the country - is unacceptable under any circumstances. It is especially inappropriate to be used against each other on a board that is committed to the traditional principles and ideals of the political Left, the Democratic party and organized Labor, as well as to the ongoing fight for justice an equality.

I fail to see how anyone contributing to these campaigns can ask us to consider them to be allies whose opinions should get any serious consideration. This is abhorrent, and I encourage everyone here to speak out and speak out forcefully against the bigotry and hatred that is becoming all too common here, be it directed at women, poor people, GLBTQ people or minority people.

Enough with the childish games. Bigotry has no place here. And please, let's not play another round of "but aren't you yourself being bigoted by calling other people bigots?" I welcome a far-reaching and exhaustive discussion about bigotry - exactly what it is and how it works - so that we can clear up any confusion people may have, or claim to have, on the subject.

Enough.
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #170
302. Indeed
DUers who spread baseless, right-wing memes are 1) ignorant, 2) lying or 3) both. No surprise that the usual trolls are well-represented in this thread. And no: they are not allies. They are shallow, knee-jerk blowhards with little insight into anything beyond their own narrow prejudices.
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Ani Yun Wiya Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:03 AM
Response to Original message
171. I hope this is the video you were looking for.
I don't have sound running on this box, so I can't verify that it is.

http://sandrarose.com/2008/09/30/video-cynthia-mckinney...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #171
241. Thanks but
I get the same message: "This video has been removed by the user". Does it actually run when you use it?
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:01 AM
Response to Original message
173. K&R I'm so glad I found this OP in time to Rec it.
:applause:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
187. McKinney Gore Moore Kucinich RFK Jr. Sheehan Chavez are all hated by the rethugs with a passion
Whenever I see trash posted about any of these people, I have NO doubt that an evil, nasty and disgusting rethug is behind it. :puke:
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #187
188. I greatly admire Gore, Moore and Kucinich
I'm indifferent to Chavez, have compassion for Sheehan, but don't admire her last couple of years of political nonsense, and I don't have any use for McKinney. Just because I disagree with holy you, doesn't make me a rethug, but your repulsive comments make YOU a narrow minded little person.

:puke: :puke: :puke:

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #188
189. It's ALWAYS personal attacks with you. Look in the mirror if you want to see a small minded person.
Edited on Sat Jan-31-09 07:44 AM by earth mom
:puke: :puke: :puke:

Your statements on Chavez, Sheehan & McKinney prove it.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #189
197. Are you kidding?
You just called people who disagree with YOU, all kinds of disgusting names, and YOU have the unmitigated gall to criticize anyone else.

Repulsive and dishonest as a plate of dogshit masquerading as chocolate mousse.

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #197
210. If the shoe fits...which it does when you dare to smear Sheehan, Chavez & McKinney.
Your posts always smell like dog sh*t, no need to call them chocolate mousse. :puke:
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #188
195. Awfully defensive there, assuming that person is talking about you`
Hmmm, makes one wonder :think:

All about you, You, YOU! Reminds me of the English Beat song "Mirror in the Bathrooom" Perhaps you should check it out.

The poster was responding to the OP, which indeed contain statements by 'Pugs, yet you assume it's directed towards you. Sad, really.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #188
199. Indifferent to Chavez? Hugo or Cesar?
Edited on Sat Jan-31-09 08:36 AM by Ken Burch
As to Cesar, There would never have been any gains for farmworkers. Certainly, none of the "effective" types were gonna do anything about farmworkers on their own. Without Chavez, Bobby wouldn't have even known they were there and wouldn't have cared.

As to Hugo, well, basically he's done what any sane Latin American leader would do to protect the gains of his government's policies from being stolen by an American coup. The U.S. establishment hates Hugo for breaking the Washington consensus and helping the poor of the world find an alternative to austerity. The man's not a saint, but he's not Stalin. And he's not even Castro on the repressiveness scale.

From what I can see, you basically have a bias against insurgent outsiders. That's the most logical conclusion a person can draw from your posts. You think we should just leave politics to "the grown-ups". Even with the improved group of grown-ups we have now, we still need the activists, and that includes those who are willing to take the risk of being described as "crazy". The ones that never get described as "crazy" are the ones who will never do anything that matters.

If we'd taken the approach you seem to advocate on the major issues of the last fifty years, Jim Crow would be in place today, gays would still live totally at the mercy of straights, and they'd still be bombing Hanoi. Would having a few more presidents who CALLED themselves "Democrats" be worth stomaching all that?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #188
237. I agree with you. Except I...
have negative feelings about Chavez.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #187
262. McKinney thinks that Al Gore can only stand to be around one black person at a time
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
203. I don't think she's crazy. I just don't think much of her.
:shrug: sorry, but she's no hero to me.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
204. thank you so much for taking the time to do this
this is something that is needed.
Not that it will change the true hater's hearts, but perhaps others can get a perspective on the "crazy" meme used around here so often for people with courage to speak truth to power.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #204
246. When I heard the rumors of her remarks about the 5000 dead bodies, I thought
Maybe she IS crazy. Maybe the pressure has gotten to her, and she is going off the deep end.

But then I looked into it and found that she didn't actually say that. She merely said that this is what she'd been told by apparently credible witnesses, and she thought it needed to be investigated. There is a great big difference between the two -- right wing spin vs. reality. Same thing with the episode over the capitol police.
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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
205. They are just more attacks on those more progressive the Bush on DU
sickening really. The Reich wing here has no problem trying to bash and belittle those on the left.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
207. for such a political subject
. . . this is a stellar piece.

I'm more convinced of the power of writing with each piece you produce, TFC. Fantastic energy and content in this one. A+
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #207
275. Thank you very much bigtree
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
209. K & R for a most effective post as usual. nt
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onlyadream Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
211. We need people like her...
who can think on their own and out of the box. With that said, I question the story about killing 5000 prisoners - I question this because with that many gone, surely families would notice and question what happened. I'm sure there is a percent that would have no family and thus can be "expendable", but not ALL of them.
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #211
221. I question that story also, but then, so did Cynthia.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #211
247. But she never said that
She merely said that in her role on the House Committee that was investigation this issue, she had been told that, and she thought it ought to be investigated further.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
223. I love Cynthia. Here's my story about her
I belong to several national peace group email lists and last year when my local group was looking for a speaker for our Iraq War anniversary event, I sent out an email to several of these groups explaining we didn't have much money but were looking for a speaker and did anyone have any recommendations for us.

The very next day I got a personal email from Cynthia McKinney. She said she would love to come and would do so for a reasonable amount but she was already booked at another event that weekend. She also recommended other possible speakers for us.

I was blown away that she actually took the time to respond to me personally. She had no idea who I was. But she answered my question.

I was an admirer before that but she won me over by emailing me.

I can also tell lots of stories about progressives we all admire here and how many 'handlers' we have had to go through to get them to come speak to us in red state hell. One is an author who is from here and we have been trying to get him here for YEARS. Another admired progressive was appearing 2 hours away from here and we offered to come pick him up and bring him here for a fee and a hotel room. His response was he didn't think his message would be well received and he doubted he could sell enough books here to make it worth his time.

So you bet I admire Cynthia. She is a Shero who reaches out to people and knows how to communicate.

And I have never deleted her email to me :)
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #223
239. I sent her a thank you note once
for all she had done, and she she sent me a hand written response. I've been writing politicians for years, and they do not, as a rule, personally write back. Cynthia did. I guess that's just crazy! :rofl:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #223
248. That's a great story
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
238. Several of the "facts" about election results are dubious.
For example,

the statement that her defeat was "massively assisted by a national media campaign of slander against McKinney Majette joined the Congressional Black Caucus on the strength of less than 20 percent of the black vote, but backed by over 90 percent of an abnormally large white turnout including tens of thousands of white Republicans who crossed over to vote in the Democratic primary election."

In all elections in GA, where the votes are counted as far as I know totally insde the Diebold (Premier) black box without verification, it's not possible to have the slightest confidence in the results. Whites may have turned out in large numbers to defeat her. Many of the white voters may also have turned out to vote for her. There's absolutely no way to know from the alleged results.

It's quite possible that she incurred the wrath and distrust of the voting machine vendor which is currently allowed to count the votes in secret without verification and they decided they didn't want her around.

That's all it would have taken.

Not saying that happened. Just saying there's no way to know what happened and any statement about the alleged results is purely opinion based on nothing.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #238
250. I agree that election fraud very well could have been used in her defeat
Especially given that it occurred in Georgia, which used touch screen Diebold machines. At this point, there's no way we'll ever know. But it's also true that her defeat was at least assisted by a massive crossover vote from white Republicans.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
240. Crazy people sometimes do good things
Crazy doesn't equal bad. Many of our most gifted men and women throughout history, those who have made the greatest contributions, would be classified as crazy.
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psychmommy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
243. i love and respect cynthia mckinney.
the she's crazy meme is used so folks won't listen to her. she won't stop and i love her for that. she is like the terminator hahaha. if she wasn't a threat, she would be ignored. we wouldn't hear anything. i just wish she would come back to the party. i hopes she keeps her voice out there.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
249. Those are defintely some wacko values she and her party hold.
No wonder all right-thinking Americans call her names. This is wacko stuff. Bat-shit crazy! Bonkers! Delusional! Insane! Crazed egomaniacs like Cynthia McKinney would drive America into some sort of progressive hell. Why, it's enough to turn decent conservatives into a beastly bunch of babbling babies.

Ten Key Values of the Green Party

1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.

3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.

4. NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to societys current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.

5. DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.

6. COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
We recognize it is essential to create a vibrant and sustainable economic system, one that can create jobs and provide a decent standard of living for all people while maintaining a healthy ecological balance. A successful economic system will offer meaningful work with dignity, while paying a living wage which reflects the real value of a persons work.

Local communities must look to economic development that assures protection of the environment and workers rights; broad citizen participation in planning; and enhancement of our quality of life. We support independently owned and operated companies which are socially responsible, as well as co-operatives and public enterprises that distribute resources and control to more people through democratic participation.

7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY
We have inherited a social system based on male domination of politics and economics. We call for the replacement of the cultural ethics of domination and control with more cooperative ways of interacting that respect differences of opinion and gender. Human values such as equity between the sexes, interpersonal responsibility, and honesty must be developed with moral conscience. We should remember that the process that determines our decisions and actions is just as important as achieving the outcome we want.

8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY
We believe it is important to value cultural, ethnic, racial, sexual, religious and spiritual diversity, and to promote the development of respectful relationships across these lines.

We believe that the many diverse elements of society should be reflected in our organizations and decision-making bodies, and we support the leadership of people who have been traditionally closed out of leadership roles. We acknowledge and encourage respect for other life forms than our own and the preservation of biodiversity.

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY
We encourage individuals to act to improve their personal well-being and, at the same time, to enhance ecological balance and social harmony. We seek to join with people and organizations around the world to foster peace, economic justice, and the health of the planet.

10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY
Our actions and policies should be motivated by long-term goals. We seek to protect valuable natural resources, safely disposing of or unmaking all waste we create, while developing a sustainable economics that does not depend on continual expansion for survival. We must counterbalance the drive for short-term profits by assuring that economic development, new technologies, and fiscal policies are responsible to future generations who will inherit the results of our actions.
http://www.gp.org/tenkey.shtml
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #249
255. The Green party should stop messing around in presidential races and focus on local ones.
Edited on Sat Jan-31-09 04:15 PM by anonymous171
That's how you start an actual grassroots movement.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #255
256. I didn't mean to take this fine thread off-topic.
But isn't the US Green Party a federation of state green parties?
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #255
320. Do some research. That is exactly what the Green party does.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #249
264. OMG! What kind of moonbat values are those??!!!
Welcome to DU prometheus. :toast:
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #264
268. Seeing this thread at the top of the Greatest is welcome enough.
But your personal welcome is also greatly appreciated.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #268
269. It is nice to see, isn't it?
And, welcome to DU. :)
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #269
276. Indeed it is. And thanks for the welcome.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #264
284. The problem with values like those is that they could spread like a virus.
The question is how can we marginalize her to prevent this happening.

I know! Let's do it the way the Soviets used to do it. Call her crazy. If we can flood the discussion boards with the crazy moonbat label every time her name comes up, maybe some of it will stick.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #284
306. That's the way they do it.
Just like anyone who doesn't accept the official version of 9/11 is crazy.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
251. allegations?
actions speak louder than words!




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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
253. Cynthia McKinney has shown the world what it costs to be a true
patriot. Maybe after all the investigations are finished, we will looke to this brave women with the respect she deserves.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
254. I think 2000 made her snap. Happened to a lot of people.
Witnessing a crime syndicate steal an election will do that to anyone. Especially when you were that involved.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #254
272. Well, she reacted productively to it
From the OP:

She took on the blatant disenfranchisement of Black voters in the Florida election in 2000. She held a hearing that determined that Florida state officials knowingly used faulty data to remove tens of thousands of registered voters from the precinct lists for being convicted felons.

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
260. I still want an answer on her comments about "Al Gore's negro tolerance level"
I find those comments to be disgusting.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #260
271. How do we know that that wasn't just right wing spin?
I don't know what the answer is. But I do know that I'm not going to believe any bad thing I hear about her until I have some verification on it. All I could find on this was an article that originated in the Washington Times, which said that she made the comment in response to a report that Gore had a quota on the number of blacks who could serve in the Secret Service. So isn't it reasonable to assume that the Times may have put out that report either to embarass Gore or McKinney or both?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #271
273. It's the Hugo Chavez Effect.
I didn't even know who he was until I started reading threads on DU. And during that time, I've run down many similar allegations, some of them taken as fact. It's uncanny because there is rarely the benefit of the doubt but more often, a rush to judgment based on one of these accusations. And so far, not one of these incendiary accusations has turned out to be true. They are meant to create bad feeling and, they do.

I suspect that if someone emails Cynthia and asks her about this allegation, it can be put to rest. The thing is, when you find out that the first 17 upsetting accusations are not true, you have yourself a pattern of disinformation, don't you?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #273
274. Exactly
When I heard about her allegations of 5000 people murdered by the government in New Orleans, it sounded pretty crazy to me. But after looking into it, I find that she didn't actually say that at all. She heard allegations to that effect and thought they should be investigated. Big difference.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #260
288. I actually have no problem with her statement...
If Gore did indeed limit the number of black agents assigned to him, and, in the process, allowed lesser qualified white agents to benefit, then it is legitimate to raise questions. If African American Secret Service agents leveled a similar complaint about Cheney, DUers would be cheering McKinney's remark.
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rhymeandreason Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
278. Thank you for posting this
And thank you for the work that you put into it, it is gratifying to see how many people have responded to it.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #278
286. Yes it is, thank you
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
283. I'm sorry that it's too late to recommend this thread.
I haven't been at the 'puter much the last couple of weeks.

Thanks for pointing out McKinney's many positive contributions, and for pointing out the right-wing attacks.

Although, sadly, I've read many DUers using the same right-wing attacks right here at DU, and I bet that if I read the responses in this long thread, there would be plenty. I haven't even scanned down the response titles, and probably won't.

I appreciate McKinney, and hope she keeps moving forward.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #283
287. thank you -- There are some negative responses in this thread
but far more positive ones.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #287
321. That's great to hear. nt
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
285. I admire her exceedingly, and even if I did not, I would easily recognize that
McKinney has been and still is targeted (possibly even some dems)by many who are very worried about her audaciousness and fearlessness. Go get 'em, Cynthia. Many admire and respect and support you.
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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #285
303. decide for yourself
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
307. Crazy I tell ya'
Cynthia McKinney strongly supports universal health care which provides access to health care regardless of ability to pay. Here are two quotes from Cynthia

"In Congress, I was a cosponsor of every bill to create a national system for universal access to health care under a single-payer model."

"All too often patients cannot receive the treatment they require because the treatment is blocked by the profit motive of the insurance companies. You have to take the insurance companies out of the health-care equation. We in the United States spend far more money than any other country in the world and we get less. Close to 50 million people are uninsured. Countries that have what others pejoratively call "socialized medicine" are better performing. We need a universal, single-payer health-care system in this country."

Crazy I tell ya'.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #307
313. Sure sounds crazy to me...everybody with health care???
OOops but I voted for her...
From a friend "The case for single payer national health care.

People are losing jobs. People are losing insurance. People who think they have good coverage are often driven into bankruptcy when a family health crises occurs and they face the high cost of prescription drugs and co-payments. Other advanced nations provide comprehensive coverage to their entire population while the US leaves 47 million uninsured and millions more underinsured. Compared to countries with national health plans, the US spends more but has a less healthy population: waste, profit and inefficiency are to blame. 15,000 physicians now see the Single Payer National Health Plan as the solution.

A single payer system is the only way to recapture this waste. The competition between insurance companies for our illness dollars is killing us financially. Everyone agrees that the current system is not working. With everyone paying a modest health tax into a single plan, the savings practically pay for the program. The potential savings on paperwork alone, more than $350 billion a year could provide coverage for everyone. The government already provides health care for the military, government employees and the aged, and they do a fine job.

Why is it that The US, unlike other industrialized countries around the world, does not have Universal health care? The defining domestic issue of 2009 and the most basic should be putting people before insurance and drug lobbies whose only concern is the bottom line. While families face catastrophic health issues, insurance and drug executives reap huge profits. While unimaginable amounts of money are being thrown around to those who need it least, lets demand the security of health care that could be ours with some reorganizing and a change in priorities. People who have health insurance and money to pay for the best health care call the Single Payer plan socialism as if it were a dirty word but it is only because they are happy with the status quo. Lets pool our resources for the benefit of all of us. Lets get what other countries have had for years. Imagine getting a Health Care card at birth knowing that you wouldnt have to worry about medical care."
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #313
322. here's a David Swanson article on single payer health care
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Ani Yun Wiya Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
314. TFC, please check your inbox.
re: video.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
325. It is a basic, standard right wing tactic to allege insanity against
any female who opposes them and gets them backed into a corner in any debate.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
326. . .
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
327. Those are observations, not allegations. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #327
328. And yours is an assertion, not a fact. n/t
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #328
329. Were there 5,000 prisoners executed and dumped in the swamp during Katrina?
Edited on Mon Feb-02-09 02:34 PM by Raskolnik
Or would that be a batshit crazy allegation to make on the basis of no credible evidence whatsoever?

But, you know what...I'm feeling charitable. I'm willing to concede that McKinney isn't actually crazy, but instead just a liar. Fair enough?

edit typo
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