CNN edits story regarding Ivins' whereabouts on 9/17 and fuzzes up time.

[EFerrari]

CNN has this story up:

Source: Suspect took leave to mail anthrax letters

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/08/anthrax.probe/index.html?section=cnn_latest

These are the salient paragraphs:

"Though they have no direct proof, investigators believe Ivins used the time to drive to Princeton, New Jersey, where the letters were mailed. Princeton is about 160 miles from Frederick, Maryland, the home of Fort Detrick.

Ivins returned to the lab for a late afternoon appointment, according to the source, who asked not to be named."

The problem is, when I first read this article, the second sentence read differently:

"Ivins returned to the lab for a 4:XX pm appointment, according to the source, who asked not to be named."

(Sorry, I don't remember the exact minutes.)

So, it looks like Ivins took time off of work to mail the anthrax, right? Wrong -- according to the FBI.

FBI says the window of opportunity for the mailing was between 5:00pm and noon the next day, (p. 8 of pdf, http://www.usdoj.gov/amerithrax/07-524-M-01%20attachment.pdf)

So, if Ivins was back at Ft. Detrick by 4:XXpm, he MISSED THE WINDOW.

What is going on here? Who changed that sentence to fuzz up the time?


:shrug:

/oops

[Prefer]

1. that was so yesterday... i heard there's a sex scandal on the loose!

[EFerrari]

2. :-) Do you remember that BradBlog reported a similar scrubbing

last weekend?

I wonder how many of these stories are subject to "corrections". :shrug:

[EFerrari]

3. "Scientists -- NAKED -- under their clothes!"

:kick:

[Solly Mack]

4. already K&R'ed

:)

so now kicking

[EFerrari]

5. Lol. Thank you, Solly Mack.

:hi:

[blm]

48. Be aware DU, that Mueller played cleanup on BCCI for BFEE, too - a trusted fixer

for the Bush Crime Family along with William Weld back in the day and the legitimate press must know his record by now, but I doubt they'll lift a finger to share the truth with the American people.

[EFerrari]

59. The press has been spamming rumors for more than a week.

It's the new normal.

[mod mom]

66. This is what happens when crimes are ignored-the criminals come back to haunt us.

I would love to hear Bill Clinton under oath answer some questions about his relationship w Jackson Stephens and why he didn't pursue this while he was president.

[robertpaulsen]

6. K & R! Another example of MSM complicity in the FBI cover-up.

:kick:

[EFerrari]

7. BradBlog reported a similar scrubbing / edit last weekend.

I wonder how many of these stories are still "under construction"?

[Supersedeas]

8. CNN News Room Producers no longer have to make sense--just make it up

[Richard Steele]

9. K&R

[EFerrari]

10. Kick. This piece of information shows Dr. Ivins could not have been

at the scene of the crime. :shrug:

[suffragette]

11. Altering the facts to fit the story

Great catch! Bad CNN.

Found an article at WAPO which says the appointment was at 4 or 5 pm.

How could he be in NJ mailing it and at his appointment at work at the same time?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/07/AR2008080703443_pf.html
{i]Meanwhile, bits of fresh information continued to come out. A partial log of Ivins's work hours shows that he worked late in the lab on the evening of Sunday, Sept. 16, signing out at 9:52 p.m. after two hours and 15 minutes. The next morning, the sources said, he showed up as usual but stayed only briefly before taking leave hours. Authorities assume that he drove to Princeton immediately after that, dropping the letters in a mailbox on a well-traveled street across from the university campus. Ivins would have had to have left quickly to return for an appointment in the early evening, about 4 or 5 p.m.

I think you need to get this to Greenwald.

[EFerrari]

12. You can't be in Princeton AND at Frederick at 5pm.

So, per the FBI, Bruce Ivins COULD NOT BE at the scene of the crime.

:shrug:

[suffragette]

13. That's what it looks like to me. too.

You nailed it!

[Junkdrawer]

14. Frederick, MD to Princeton, NJ is a 3 1/2 hr drive...Let's say 3 hrs speeding...

So if he made a 4:XX meeting, he left Princeton at 1:XX on Monday the 17th...

From the cited FBI affidavit:

The investigation examined Dr. Ivins's laboratory activity immediately before and after
the window of opportunity for the mailing of the Post and Brokaw letters to New York which
began at 5:00 p.m. Monday, September 17,2001 and ended at noon on Tuesday, September 18,
2001.


I assume the 5:00 pm until noon the next day window relates to the mail pickup times for that mailbox.

That means that unless Ivins drove to Princeton later that night, he couldn't have done it.

[EFerrari]

15. Yes. The window for mail collection.

FBI says Ivins couldn't have done it.

:shrug:

[Junkdrawer]

17. My suggestion: Post it on Dr. Nass's blog...

http://anthraxvaccine.blogspot.com/

She allows anonymous posts, but she pre-screens them. That means she'll see it. And Glenn monitors her blog closely.

BTW: Great Catch!

[EFerrari]

18. I sent it to Dr. Ivins' lawyer and also to Glenn.

Although, my email to Glenn probably didn't say, "The FBI says Ivins *couldn't* have been there".

Also have PM'd lala.

Thanks to all of you who have been sifting through all of this.

[suffragette]

21. Well done!

:yourock:

[suffragette]

22. The WAPO article has already been cited

on quite a few other websites, so they can't easily make that disappear.
http://www.google.com/search?q=ivins+%22about+4+or+5+p.m%22&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&filter=0

[EFerrari]

23. My email account seems to be having some trouble.

For the last two hours.

Maybe you or someone else could send this around.

[Junkdrawer]

28. I posted this summary on Dr. Nass's blog...

Yesterday, the Washington Post revealed details on when the FBI thinks Dr. Ivins went to Princeton to mail the first set of letters:

...

Meanwhile, bits of fresh information continued to come out. A partial log of Ivins's work hours shows that he worked late in the lab on the evening of Sunday, Sept. 16, signing out at 9:52 p.m. after two hours and 15 minutes. The next morning, the sources said, he showed up as usual but stayed only briefly before taking leave hours. Authorities assume that he drove to Princeton immediately after that, dropping the letters in a mailbox on a well-traveled street across from the university campus. Ivins would have had to have left quickly to return for an appointment in the early evening, about 4 or 5 p.m.

...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/07/AR2008080703443_pf.html

However, on page 8 of the FBI affidavit:

...


The investigation examined Dr. Ivins's laboratory activity immediately before and after
the window of opportunity for the mailing of the Post and Brokaw letters to New York which
began at 5:00 p.m. Monday, September 17,2001 and ended at noon on Tuesday, September 18,
2001.

....

http://www.usdoj.gov/amerithrax/07-524-M-01%20attachment.pdf

Frederick, MD to Princeton, NJ is a 3 1/2 hr drive, let's say 3 hrs speeding. So if he made a 4:XX meeting, he left Princeton at 1:XX on Monday the 17th. There's no way, using the leave hours cited, the Dr. Ivins could have made the window needed to mail the first batch of anthax.

[Junkdrawer]

30. I also posted it to Glenn's blog

http://letters.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/radio/2008/08/08/anthrax/permalink/be7ec4d7d071dc887bc4e2ecf50360ff.html

[suffragette]

72. Glenn Greenwald led with the letter you posted

and wrote an article on the issue

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/10/anthrax/index.html?source=rss&aim=/opinion/greenwald


A commenter here (that's Junkdrawer and Greenwald has a hyperlink to Junkdrawer's post) on Friday noted what appears to be a rather glaring contradiction in the case against Bruce Ivins. In response to criticisms that the FBI's case contains no evidence placing Ivins in New Jersey, where the anthrax letters were sent, The Washington Post published an article -- headlined "New Details Show Anthrax Suspect Away On Key Day" -- which, based on leaks from "government sources briefed on the case," purported to describe evidence about Bruce Ivins' whereabouts on September 17 -- the day the FBI says the first batch of anthrax letters were mailed from a Princeton, New Jersey mailbox.

~snip~

If the Post's reporting about Ivins' September 17 activities is accurate -- that he "return for an appointment in the early evening, about 4 or 5 p.m." -- then that would constitute an alibi, not, as the Post breathlessly described it, "a key clue into how he could have pulled off an elaborate crime," since any letter he mailed that way would have a September 17 -- not a September 18 -- postmark. Just compare the FBI's own definition of "window of opportunity" to its September 17 timeline for Ivins to see how glaring that contradiction is.

In theory (and there is no evidence for this at all), Ivins could have left Fort Detrick that night after work and driven to New Jersey, but then the leaked information reported by the Post about Ivins' September 17 morning "administrative leave" would be completely irrelevant, and according to the Post, that isn't what the FBI believes occurred ("Authorities assume that he drove to Princeton immediately after" he took administrative leave in the morning). The FBI's theory as to how and when Ivins traveled to New Jersey on September 17 and mailed the letters is simply impossible, given the statement in their own Probable Cause Affidavit as to "the window of opportunity" the anthrax attacker had to mail the letters in order to have them bear a September 18 postmark. Marcy Wheeler and Larisa Alexandrovna have now noted the same discrepancy. That is a pretty enormous contradiction in the FBI's case. (my bolding, here)

Damn fine job sfexpat2000 and Junkdrawer.


:applause:

[EFerrari]

73. Great job, Junkdrawer!

:)

[suffragette]

32. I'm sorry it took me so long to reply to this

I just posted to emptywheel's blog.

If you can think of any particular person or pub you want it sent to, let me know and I'll be glad to do it.

[EFerrari]

19. emailed Dr. Nass. n/t

[Spazito]

16. Good catch!

The liars might want to hire someone to check their false scenarios before they "publish" them, some of the errors are beyond obvious.

Again, good catch, thanks for posting>

Recommended.

[RainDog]

20. kick n/t

[Muttocracy]

24. pardon my confusion

(I'm getting over a stomach bug and the brain's a bit hazy).

since the window is overnight, are they saying he drove after his appointment? I'm having trouble attaching dates to the appointment vs. the window.

Thanks.

[EFerrari]

25. They sent out a story today saying he took off work early on the 17th

to drive over to Princeton. And they use his time card to document that he left work early on 9/17.

The problem is, he was back at the lab by about 4:30 pm for an appointment.

The FBI says the window for dropping that mail was 5:00pm to noon the next day.

So, he could not have made their window on the 17th or on the 18th.

[Muttocracy]

26. but what if it was after the appointment or in the middle of the night?

or was he back at work on the morning of the 18th?

[EFerrari]

27. The window started in the middle of his appointment and

he was not out of town after that (edit: according to the FBI).

[EFerrari]

35. I wish there was some way to get his schedule for the next window

but that was a holiday. Maybe someone who saw him or did something with him will come forward.

[mod mom]

29. K & R! Great catch-I wonder how the reporters live with themselves.

[suffragette]

31. Posted to emptywheel's blog

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/09/goggle-maps-says-maybe-maybe-not/

Here's what I posted:

The FBI's own timeline shows he couldn't have mailed it in that window.

From the WaPo Article:

Ivins would have had to have left quickly to return for an appointment in the early evening, about 4 or 5 p.m.

However, on page 8 of the FBI affidavit:

http://www.usdoj.gov/amerithrax/07-524-M-01%20attachment.pdf

The investigation examined Dr. Ivins's laboratory activity immediately before and after
the window of opportunity for the mailing of the Post and Brokaw letters to New York which
began at 5:00 p.m. Monday, September 17,2001 and ended at noon on Tuesday, September 18,
2001.

The reason for the window is that the letter was postmarked on Sept 18th, so it had to be mailed on Sept 18th or after the last pick-up on Sept 17th.

Ivins could not be at a meeting at 4 - 5pm in Frederick and mailing a letter after 5pm in Princeton. According to the FBI's own specification of the "window of opportunity" he could not have mailed that 1st batch of letters.

Thanks to sfexpat2000 at Democratic Underground who caught this.

[EFerrari]

34. Thank you, suffragette. Let's see if someone can find a hole

in this.

[suffragette]

36. emptywheel started noticing the same discrepancy at the same time as I was posting

(Thats the 1st post I ever made to her blog. I had to register first.)


I noted you caught this yesterday in Reply 14 on her blog.

[EFerrari]

37. I've had to register all over the world in the last few days. lol

:hi:

[suffragette]

43. We'll get it out there

:hi:

[suffragette]

33. Larissa has now posted this on at-Largely

http://www.atlargely.com/2008/08/cnn-welcome-to.html

Great sleuthing, sfexpat2000!

[Junkdrawer]

38. Perhaps this is why the FBI worked so hard on Ivins's children

Since the "he did it during the work leave" theory has more holes than Albert Hall, that only leaves the hours after work on the 17th.

If his wife and both children swear that Dad came home that night, watched TV and went to bed, I guess that gives him a pretty good alibi.

So, if you're the FBI and you think the kids are lying to cover for Dad, you show them pictures or offer sports cars to get them to change their story.

[suffragette]

39. And I can't find anything in the FBI documents

that specifies where Ivins was on Sept 18th, which is the postmark date on the 1st mailing.
If they had anything that indicated he could do it the night of the 17th or on the 18th, I would think they would have put that in there.
This is the best they could come up with and sfexpat2000 nailed them on the discrepancy.

[EFerrari]

41. That a story was put out about his clocking out on the 17th

is significant to me. As their case seems to be mostly about perception, FBI seems to be counting on the fact that no one will check behind them. The story was put out so that people would focus on the timecard, right, and not on the larger frame.

[Junkdrawer]

42. Had times lined up, you can bet your ass that the FBI..

would have trumpeted this during their news conference. Even the lapdog press noticed there was no evidence placing Ivins in Princeton. Can't you imagine:

"And we know that Ivins took an UNUSUAL leave of absence during the EXACT times needed for him to drive to Princeton and drop off the letters in the EXACT time window our forensic experts say the letters were dropped off!"

It would have lead newscasts.

[dansolo]

50. They also implied that his late hours were used to prepare the anthrax

It sounds like he has some appointment on Monday, so he worked extra hours on Sunday night because he knew he wouldn't put in a full day's work. But when the FBI spokesperson talked about his working late, they made it a point to mention that Ivins had no other history of working after hours, before or since that time period.

[suffragette]

44. It is significant

But they couldn't even get that to line up correctly.
And people are checking.

[EFerrari]

40. Yep. I'm going to go over the docs again to see what else

can be found in the way of a schedule.

I'm not assuming he didn't drive to NJ. But, it hasn't been shown that he did. :shrug:

Another question I have is, have any of the labs in NJ been investigated? Did FBI go straight to Ft. Detrick for their culprit? I don't remember them being serious about anyone else but it has been years now and my memory is not good.

[Catherine Vincent]

45. You go girl!

:kick:

[defendandprotect]

77. Re ANYONE who mailed this stuff in Princeton . . .

and I do think that Nassau and Bank Streets are in Princeton . . . right?

Meanwhile --- as I recall it --- the Ames strain anthrax was distributed over a dozen or more
US military labs --- but finally traced to Ft. Detrich, specifically?

HOWEVER, the anthrax taken from the letters had been separated from the first generation of
it by as much as two years --

Therefore --- anyone could have had this stuff for two years and working on it to turn it
into the lethal weapon that that we saw in the Daschle letter. Only 4-5 scientists in the
US know how to make weaponized anthrax. And one of those scientists has said that this was
such a sophisticated anthrax that he wasn't sure that he could reproduce it even if he had
a lab, a staff -- and a year!!!

And I think we have to also point out that if there was even one accomplice involved the
first could have mailed it to the second. Maybe mailed to someone in PA who drove to NJ?

Anything is actually possible . . . especially if all of this was under the care of someone
like Cheney/Rumsfeld with, let's say, contractors involved?

[EFerrari]

78. I think you don't want to have to move that stuff around very much.

Each time you do, you risk a leak.

:shrug:

[defendandprotect]

80. Well, of course, it would have been packaged appropriately . . .

Weaponized anthrax may have been shipped to someone anywhere to have the sophisticated
elements added to it to make it "airborne" ---

There's no evidence that in two years the separated quantity remained in DC or at
Ft. Detrich ---

Also -- there are only 4-5 scientists in US who can make weaponized anthrax ---

ONE of them has said that this stuff in the Daschle envelope was so sophisticated that
he wasn't sure that he could reproduce it -- EVEN given a lab, a staff and a year!

How long was someone working on this to make it "airborne" and so highly "floatable"
that it was able to move from Daschle's office to Feingold's offices which were
directly being Daschle's???? I think Feingold was around the corner and behind Daschle.

[EFerrari]

81. Yep. And Ivins' boss's wife remembers Bruce describing it

and the way it just floated around the bag they had put the Daschle letter in.

[varkam]

46. Maybe I'm just not understanding something...

but couldn't he of dropped the mail after the appointment (i.e. during the night sometime) if the window was until noon on the next day?

[EFerrari]

47. Nothing wrong with your understanding!

The claim is, he checked out of work early on 9/17 to go deliver anthrax. We know that couldn't happen according to FBI's own calculations.

There is no indication that he was absent from work on the morning of the 18th and no accusation that he was missing the night of the 17th.

Their whole claim is that he left work early on the 17th.

:shrug:

eta: Their claim so far. Maybe when they realize what they've done, they'll produce a different time card.

[varkam]

49. But why would we need an accusation that he was missing on the ngiht of the 17th?

I'm assuming he wasn't working overnight. If the time is not accounted for, then isn't it possible he just drove during the night?

[LiberalHeart]

51. I'm having the same problem understanding this that you are.

I don't see how it clears him. Also, maybe the FBI is thinking those day hours away from the lab were not for a mailing trip, but rather for envelope preparation away from prying eyes -- followed by a night trip to Princeton.

I saw a reference somewhere early on that Ivins said he drove around at night then turned back his odometer so his wife wouldn't know. Is that in any documents?

[suffragette]

53. This isn't closing the doors on other scenarios

but it slams the door shut on the most recent one that was put out by CNN and WaPo. They both printed that same story with the info supplied to them by "government sources briefed on the case."

They then proceeded to note how that point led investigators to think this was when he could have mailed the letters:

From the CNN article:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/08/anthrax.probe/

The source said records show Ivins reported to work at his Fort Detrick lab on the morning of September 17, 2001, but stayed only a short time before taking leave hours.

Though they have no direct proof, investigators believe Ivins used the time to drive to Princeton, New Jersey, where the letters were mailed. Princeton is about 160 miles from Frederick, Maryland, the home of Fort Detrick.

Ivins returned to the lab for a late afternoon appointment, according to the source, who asked not to be named.


From the WaPo article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/07/AR2008080703443.html

Anthrax attack suspect Bruce E. Ivins took several hours of administrative leave from his Fort Detrick, Md., laboratory on a critical day in September 2001 when the first batch of deadly letters was dropped in a New Jersey mailbox, government sources briefed on the case said yesterday.

The gap recorded on his time sheet offered investigators a key clue into how he could have pulled off an elaborate crime that involved carrying letters packed with lethal powder to a distant location for mailing, the sources said.

So, both articles quoting the same government source(s) were alleging a scenario that they state investigators believed. Who was investigating this? The FBI. But the FBI's own time window (based on the postmark) refutes the possibility of him during this during the timeline they are citing.
And it is yet another allegation the FBI is floating that is wrong or unlikely.

Like sfexpat2000 noted above, they could bring up another possibility. But she nailed them on this one.

Interesting though that they would try this one since it doesn't even correspond with what they put out in their own documents.

[varkam]

54. But the window extended into the afternoon of the following day, did it not? eom

[EFerrari]

55. FBI says it went from 5pm on 9/17 until noon of the 18th. n/t

[varkam]

56. So I'm still having trouble, then...

so long as the time following the afternoon appointment on the 17th and prior to noon on the 18th is unaccounted for, then it seems possible that Ivins could of dropped the mail within that time frame, correct?

[EFerrari]

58. Is it unaccounted for?

The material leaked to the media focuses on the afternoon of the 17th. Once that doesn't work out for them, maybe FBI can tell us their claim for that evening and the next morning because so far, they haven't made one.

[varkam]

60. I don't know.

Typically, when one doesn't know one way or the other, one reserves judgment.

[EFerrari]

61. Agreed. The story released Friday was meant to get us focused

on the afternoon of the 17th. That doesn't work.

And no one has shown that the following hours do either. We don't know.

ETA: This is the claim I am responding to:

"investigators believe Ivins used the time to drive to Princeton, New Jersey, where the letters were mailed"

By FBIs own calculations, Ivins did not use that time to drive to Princeton.

[varkam]

62. Ah, I see. Thank you for clarifying.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

63. Sure Sorry I wasn't more clear in the first place!

:)

[defendandprotect]

79. Actually, the FBI is creating a totally artificial and unsound "window" . . .

Please see my msg #77 above . . .

Someone could have had this anthrax for up to two years!

If there was an accomplice, this stuff could have been mailed to PA in December ....

and put in a mailbox in NJ in September!!!

It's all about creating a window which we have no idea anyone followed ---

It could have been planned much earlier --- over two years earlier --- who knows?

[Mnemosyne]

52. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours.

Whoa, Beth! Great catch!

:hi:

[upi402]

57. KICK!

Thanks for your service sfexpat.

[Supersedeas]

64. kind of like ABC....where did they get their information and why did they make the correction

[Judi Lynn]

65. Kicking.

http://www.bachehasalam.com.nyud.net:8090/images/donkey_kicking_bucking_sx.gif

[Vinnie From Indy]

67. Good catch!

I am continually in awe of many of you around here. Cheers to you sfexpat2000!

[berni_mccoy]

68. KICK! This means he could not have mailed them!

[vanlassie]

69. No, It means the story being fed to us is false.

You can certainly look at the details to try to rule out his involvement with 100% certainty, but this is NOT THE QUESTION.

The QUESTION is...... why is the FBI trying to get us to believe a falsehood???

WHY, Indeed.

[EFerrari]

71. Put another way, why is the BUSH JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

lying to the American people AGAIN?

[yardwork]

70. Good Catch. Looks like Ivins has an alibi.

[understandinglife]

74. Good catch, Beth!

Peace,
Bob

[EFerrari]

75. That morning I was just trying to keep up with Mabus and suffragette

who were digging up all sorts of good questions. To tell you the truth, I didn't even want to read that article because as soon as I saw the word "timecard", my heart sort of sank. It's funny what you can find if you just push forward. lol

[djp2]

76. Impossible times reason for "Suicide"

Times couldn't work and wouldn't stand up in court, so thats why the "suicide" had to happen.