RFK, Jr & Salon's Manjoo & DU Election Reformers Agree On:

[IndyOp]

I think that right now - we need to emphasize what we all agree on. Why? Because, I maintain, that less than 5% of the American public knows what we know FOR SURE about GOP culture of election corruption from 2000 & 2004. 77% of all Dems may suspect that there are GOP dirty tricks going on, but they don't know for sure and/or don't know the full extent. Hence, IMHO, RFK's Rolling Stone article is a strong, positive net gain.

Farhad if you are lurking -- DUers Landshark, Febble, everyone -- HOW CAN WE MAKE BEST USE of the RFK article to catapult the TRUTHS ON WHICH WE ALL AGREE into the national media? I *think* we all DO agree on the following - what is in italics are rough quotes from RFK, Jr. on Thom Hartmann's radio show:

1. There is no legitimate dispute that high-level Republican party officials orchestrated a deliberate, concerted effort to try to steal the election.

2. The really, I think, momentous part of this story is the unwillingness of the national press to cover this issue.

3. Could you convince a jury that the Republican party succeeded in stealing the election? I think that, yes, you could convince a jury...that they succeeded in stealing the election. But, it's almost a distraction at this point to dwell on that point. The thing that I think we have to focus the national press on is the open efforts of the Republicans to try to steal the election.

4. There is no legitimate dispute that the efforts were made to steal the election and that is something everyone should focus on, that is the scandal, and people should be prosecuted for it, and there should be hearings and people should go to jail.

Farhad if you are lurking -- DUers Landshark, Febble, everyone -- HOW CAN WE MAKE BEST USE of the RFK article to catapult the TRUTHS ON WHICH WE ALL AGREE into the national media?

Robert F. Kennedy from his interview on Thom Hartmann -

RFK Comment: There is no legitimate dispute that high level Republican party officials orchestrated a deliberate, concerted effort to steal the election. And there is strong evidence, really overwhelming evidence, that they succeeded in doing so. The really, I think, momentous part of this story is the unwillingness of the national press to cover this issue.

Hartman Q: Do you have enough evidence, proof, at least enough to convince a jury that the Republicans stole the election and John Kerry should be the President of the United States?

Kennedy's A: There is indisputable evidence that the Republicans tried to steal the election, There is overwhelming evidence that they succeeded in stealing the election. I think that, yes, you could convince a jury, and I'm convinced, that they succeeded in stealing the election. But, it's almost a distraction at this point to dwell on that point. The thing that I think we have to focus the national press on is the open efforts of the Republicans to try to steal the election. And that is the scandal. And I think what the Republicans will say is that the people who are defending this... And I was on Tucker Carlson last night and I was gratified that at the end of the interview he said that this is not a crackpot issue and that people should read the article. It was good to see that kind of integrity.

But, people who want to distract us from looking at this issue altogether will say, but you'll never be able to PROVE beyond any doubt that this election was stolen and that is probably true because the ballots are about to be destroyed (under Ohio law they can be destroyed in three years after the election)...and so the proof is going to disappear.

There is no legitimate dispute that the efforts were made to steal the election and that is something everyone should focus on, that is the scandal, and people should be prosecuted for it, and there should be hearings and people should go to jail.

[The Magistrate]

1. Well Said, Ma'am!

An excellent summary of the situation, and of the best course to pursue.

There is certainly no doubt Republican officials did everything they could to cook the election results, and next to this large fact, debate over whether of not they actually succeeded in altering the result is something of a quibble. The thing is outrageous, and quite possibley criminal, whether their effort succeeded or not.

That this is not a major story in the mass news outlets is a disgrace, and even a threat to our country and its future. Free and fair elections are the bedrock of what every American, left, right, or whatever, and of whatever social class or ethnic or religious identity, has been raised to value most about our country: they are the very foundation of Liberty.

[IndyOp]

2. Thanks Judge! Can we bring it to your court? ;-) (n/t)

[The Magistrate]

7. The Proceedings Would Be Short And Sweet, Ma'am

"We'll give you a fair trial 'fore we hang ya...."

[Febble]

3. That is a good question

Let me think.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

4. Well, the first thing that should happen is that someone needs to

file some kind of stop order to protect the ballots from being destroyed.

[bleever]

5. K&R.

:thumbsup:

[Einsteinia]

6. I agree 100%

And if you notice the only defense the press can come up with is, Well if it were true Kerry would have screamed like a banjee. What? The dems not only get the lamest candidate ever, but now they have to suffer into perpetuity because he remains lame? Kerry NEVER spoke for election integrity issues. But we must remind the Tucker Carlson's that Mr. Not-so-Swift-Boat does NOT speak for us.

[OnTheOtherHand]

8. I think a lot of the trying isn't reflected in ballots

To the extent that various actions kept people from voting at all, the ballots won't reveal it.

Personally, I think it is risky to fixate on the 2004 ballots, because so far I haven't seen quant evidence to persuade me that there is likely to be much there there. (Definitely there are some off-the-wall precincts; I just don't see a sweeping pattern of vote miscount.) But we should get as much info as we can.

There are many other things about 2004 that we could try to get more evidence about. Oh, I remember one I was thinking of recently, and I don't know whether there has been headway. There has been lots of speculation about who got purged and why, but has anyone tried to track down some sample of these people? The 2000 Florida purge is notorious because of many telling facts about who was purged.

We have to think about the future, too -- how do we make sure that people get registered, stay registered, get to vote, and have their votes counted? Some folks seem to think that people won't care about this unless we prove that 2004 was stolen, but I don't agree.

[Amaryllis]

9. kick

[BeFree]

10. What we do agree on

There is a ton of secretly held evidence that could possibly prove the elections were stolen. Not only is some evidence from the exit-polls still being withheld, 80% of the nation's count from the voting machines has not been examined, and most of it never will be.

And given that the corporate controllers of the voting machines will never willingly expose its revenue stream to questioning, the machines will once again fly under the radar, as they have now for far too long.

It is fine if you can make a case based on not having to prove the vote was stolen, but I doubt it is possible. The case, imo, needs to be made that the machines stole votes. How to do that, I am not sure, but common sense, if it ever comes to the public, will complete the equation.

There is no legitimate proof that the machines are properly programmed, and since we all agree republicans made an attempt to steal the election, it makes sense that they exercised the means and opportunity to use the machines to do so.

[Kip Humphrey]

11. I wonder...

I cannot easily put aside...

That the theft of the 2004 election by digital means issued in a new paradigm of election fraud on a massive scale

The those responsible for stealing our elections (and, subsequently undermining our Democracy) must be called to account and prosecuted to the full extent of the law

That what compelled me to act was my personal realization that our Democracy had been undermined by the new paradigm of massive digital fraud evidenced in the theft of the 2004 election and the accompanying outrage and alarm over just what legacy I was allowing to be passed to my children.

I wonder how I can expect others to act without a sense of alarm and outrage that accompanies the realization our elections are being stolen. Should I couch my words for the sake of commonality knowing full well what brought me to this fight? Should the American people be denied the opportunity to experience their own outrage for the sake of our seeking common ground?

I am convinced by the preponderance of the evidence and, indeed, beyond a reasonable doubt that high officials of the RNC and Karl Rove, the architect, by clear evidence of motive, opportunity and means, did collude and engineer the theft of the 2004 election through a coordinated effort of voter disenfranchisement, voter registration denial and fraud, digital vote flipping via preprogrammed e-voting machines, and vote total manipulation via remotely accessing centralized digital vote processing tabulators, aided and abetted by Republican-loyalist operated voting machine vendors. Shall I not say this? Shall I not shout this from the rooftops? I think I shall.

I wonder...

[FogerRox]

12. What Kip said...

WE didnt protest on Dec 12, 2004 in nearly every state capital for nothing.

Heres me and my friends on that day, in Trenton NJ.

http://www.51capitalmarch.com/scrapBook/12-12/trentonNJphotos.shtml

Kerry won, I will believe that until the day I die.

[On the Road]

13. What's Amazing is That Manjoo Actually Agreed

in that article that Blackwell engaged in misconduct trying to rig the election.

He then proceeded to ignore that, and attack some of the arguments used to show that the election actually was stolen.

[robinlynne]

14. yes, the most important thing is the election fraud. period.

and yes we need to preserve those ballots. and in new mexico too. (or did they already destroy them? I know it went to court, but don't know the final outcome.)
Since there are so many people here, what concrete things can we do as a group? I work with eleciton proteciotn here, and I know in practice, it is nearly impossible to get even a small group of volunteers to come watch the vote count. We do get things done, when we pick one action and support it as a large group, whatever it is.
Landshark and IndyOp seem to be 2 very knowledgeable people on this forum...

[Tigress DEM]

15. No Doubt is good, but you have to have PROOF beyond....

We have proof of tampering, but I think we should also find some way to keep those ballots from being destroyed.

AND we need to catch them with their pants down. We need to catch Ken Blackwell as he again goes down the crooked path in the 2006 Gubenatorial Election.

I have heard that he is under another lawsuit... this time for having the memory cards to the machines that will be used in his own election locked up in his office.

Not only is he Sec of State and running for office in said election there is evidence that he tampered with the 2004 election and sat on the evidence until the time had passed for the public to get due process and then the whole electoral college prevailed.

Isn't it time for Independent Citizen's Advisory Councils to take over the counting of the votes in disputed areas by now?

[snot]

16. A concern I've got:

Both parties have TRIED to steal various elections in various ways throughout history. I'm afraid if we just say, "they tried", our message will be discounted.

I think that's why many of us have felt it so important to try to show that in this particular case, the scale of the effort was so massive and unprecedented that it could actually have changed the outcome of a Pres'l election that would not otherwise even have been close.

[Tigress DEM]

17. I'm not aware of DEM attempts to steal elections....

and I don't buy this whole adage that "all" politicians do these things. I think that is a long term lie beneath all of this.

DEMs have fought hard and nasty when they had to, but definately have a party attitude of not going below the belt if it can be avoided. Mudslinging I have seen.. negative campaigns, yes. Restering voters and throwing away Republican registrations by the bag full? No. Using electronics to flip votes? NO.

Besides if a DEM did this stuff it would be plastered on the news. I haven't seen any such critter. Even if we are talking past elections, the rethugs would be talking it up, but I don't hear it and didn't in 2004 either.

[snot]

18. Here's what I've heard

from confirmed Dems --

1. that stolen votes helped LBJ in TX at some point in his career -- not the Pres'l race, I don't think, but maybe a Congressional or State race; and

2. that for some period, there was a Dem machine in Chicago that used vote fraud to keep the original Mayor Daley in office.

I don't know any details, but I have heard this from more than one knowledgeable, hard-core Dem friend.

I'm not aware that the Dems have ever even attempted anything on the scale we've seen from the Repubs in the last two elections or more. But when any contingency gets too much power and is not subject to adequate watch-dogging, checks & balances, there's a temptation to abuse that few seem able to resist.

(Personally, I think that in order to "win" in our most important effort -- the effort to bring our society toward truth, justice, and kindness -- it would be helpful to avoid being drawn into an overly-polarized view of Dems as good and Repubs as evil. Most of us are not holier than most of them; most of all of us Dems and Repubs are doing the best we can. And I'm all but certain that we cannot help each other by hating each other.)