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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:03 AM
Original message
"parallel election" WOW ! San Diego
Edited on Thu Aug-18-05 11:17 AM by kansasblue
What a great system. A parellel election system. So cool. We've got to look into this more!

San Diego

Diebold's Un-Accu-Vote

Now, a nonpartisan citizens� group that conducted a parallel election has requested a recount of 11 precincts. This time, the issue isn�t unmarked bubbles, but the accuracy of Diebold Accu-Vote optical scan voting machines and the Diebold GEMS central tabulator used to count votes. The Citizens Audit Parallel Election (CAPE) asked voters exiting polls to vote again and sign a log book attesting to the accuracy of their second vote. Sealed parallel election ballots were counted at KGTV�s studio with a TV camera crew filming the counting process.

Nearly 50 percent of all voters participated in the parallel election, which included five polling places representing 11 precincts. The sample included more conservative than liberal precincts, with participation as high among Republicans as among Democrats. The tandem election results showed what most feel to be startling results.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Citizens_Request_Recount_...




The nation's first parallel election was conceived by Ellen Brodsky, an election official in Coconut Creek, Florida. Held at a single precinct during a May 2005 special election on a gambling initiative, the Florida parallel election drew a 67 percent participation rate and revealed significant discrepancies, leading to revelations of programming issues with touch-screen voting machines.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. This should be front page news in the MSM.
Rawstory is nice but it is not read by enough people to make a real impact.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. actually I beg to differ:) n/t
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Well...
I guess I should say it is not read by a wide enough cross section of people.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. It's getting a lot of new people reading it today. ;-)
Edited on Thu Aug-18-05 10:17 PM by Liberty Belle
I forwarded the link to a thousand friends or so, each of whom has been busily sending this out over the cyber-jungle grapevine.

I just got an e-mail back from a gubernatorial candidate's campaign aide; he sent it to lots of Dem party leaders in CA.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Good.
I'm glad to hear that. I hope that it spread like wild-fire because these bastards cannot be allowed to get away with all of this. Thank you so much for writing the article.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. LandShark can tell you more about this--
or got to Sloarbus and downlaod the CD, on the 11-02-04 election----
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. A 4% consistent vote shift??? Sounds like the idiot in the WH really lost.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yep, in a reality-based universe, * lost the election....
but when you add in diebold's help, well, all things are possible.

From the article:

San Diego's far broader parallel election was the brainchild of Judy Alter, an emeritus professor in the department of world arts and culture at UCLA who participated in the New Mexico recount after the 2004 presidential election. In Santa Fe, Alter detected a shift of third-party candidate votes into the Bush/Cheney column.

"That pattern has now been identified in eight states," Alter told Raw Story in an exclusive interview, adding that numerous other indications of electronic fraud have been found. "This is why I'm leading Study California Ballots, because we have to actually count," Added Alter.

______________
the pattern was found in 8 states, eh? Does anyone really believe that people waited in lines for hours to vote for *? Does anyone really believe that the millions of new, registered voters that had never voted before registered to vote for *? Nope. It was all sleight-of-hand, or should I say, sleight-of machine. One of the best tricks bushco* did was to move votes from precincts already known to vote for bush* by the way they voted in 2000. Miraculously, blocks of solid, democratic voters changed their votes from a democratic trend to vote for bush*. Not just once. No, many many times in many precincts. Everyone was looking for fraud in areas that would not vote for *. No one was looking for fraud in precincts that would vote for *. bushco* could not have * not win the popular vote again. Not even a stacked supreme court could jump that hurdle.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
4. I've often thought the brouhaha about touch screen machines
was blown out of proportion specifically to distract from the tabulators, which also use suspect software and are controlled by the same suspect companies. To mess with the thousands of vote machines is one thing, but messing with a mere few dozen tabulators is easily within the scope of reason, not requiring the complicity of 'thousands of people' as the debunkers always claim.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. one person with the appropriate "back door" keys could have easily made
one telephone call that would kick in a preprogrammed routine to vote shift. If you make the machine and control the software, you can say Donald Duck won the election without one person casting a single ballot for D. Duck. 2004 was fixed, in a multitude of creative ways.
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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. there are sooooo many ways...
Edited on Thu Aug-18-05 11:32 AM by kansasblue
you could have the code tested and tested.. and there is just extra lines in the codes that says:

If date = election date then

run
x
x corrupt code
x
x
end
else

run
good audited code

end

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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. exactly! The tabulation software should be considered a national
treasure: open and on display for all to see and guarded like the crown jewels. Still, for the life of me...diebold makes the most secure banking machines on the planet, along with the resultant software, and they can't seem to get voting right??? Yeah, I'll buy that.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
39. Diebold gives all the ATM coding to their bank customers--
--who would not have it any other way. They also brag about their open source software on their website. And voters have to tolerate "proprietary" garbage.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. The optical scan system is just as problematic.
Once the paper ballot is scanned, that vote is now digitized & can easily be manipulated.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. That's why I thought we were safe, here in NC.
Only 4 counties used touch screens, the rest of the state used optical scans. And before the election, no one was talking about problems with the tabulators.

I sure wish I knew who I voted for.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. Our Optical Scan ballots are counted on Diebold tabulators, too.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
41. That doesn't mean that it necessarily will be manipulated
The gubernatorial hand recount in WA state was within 0.01% of the two machine counts (mostly optical scan). The scan error rate is itself 0.2%, so the recount was a direct validation of the overall tabulation process. All candidates gained votes in the manual recount, as you would expect for optical scanning (same reason that your computer printer occasionally picks up two sheets instead of one).
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
52. and other stuff as well
the focus on the long lines, etc, was meant to say- this is how many we screwed, and it wasn't enough. a distraction.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. kick
nt
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mgr Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
9. 67% participation leaves some wiggle room
particularly in republican districts, if the pattern with the 2004 exit poll is accurate.

Mike
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. Not a statistician, but it would seem to be a rock solid sample.
TruthISAll is the DUer that could tackle this.
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mgr Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Oh, it is good enough to justify a recount
Just don't presume that when its over, that the 4% is a phantom of machine perfidy. The issue is that when you sample voters, you presume that both those the respond and those that do not characterize the same populations, and are not discrete subpopulations.

Mike
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. What are Truth-in-All's credentials?
His work here looks impressive, but I don't know his background.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. Math & Statistical Analysis IIRC
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mgr Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #33
54. He's a software engineer with no statistical background or training.
Either he never recieved it, was improperly trained, or has forgotten much of it.

My criticism is that he follows what one learned in preliminary statistics--formulas without any consideration of the constraints, or meeting the criteria for application. A specific point in case is the application of MOEs (margin of error, related to confidence intervals, that he applies a strict measure when the population being examined does not conform to a perfect Gaussian curve.

I would put it simply that he understands the math as a language, but not as an art for interpreting real or natural phenomena. That has been the particular distinction between the reification of the engineer versus the scientist.

Mike
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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
10. People think Diebold can count money.....
why not votes?

But money is auditable. You know what the results should be and people check in regulary.

But with voting it's different. I know how I voted but I can even validate that it was counted. I should get a "voted" number. And then there should be a way to go check. Voter 38540-04994944 voted this way.
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. what a staggeringly good idea!
I wish you worked for Diebold! (Two reasons: Because of your idea and because you're not evil.)
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pauldavid Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. When will enough be enough
You hear about this stuff all over, but nothing is really ever done. Has any electronic voter fraud been proven in a court? It has been going on for years now, but nothing really changes. Diebold needs to be drug into court.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. hear hear-- court --- yes
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. How are you going to prove the 'Secret Software' cheated?
Well the exit poles for one thing. If hey are not cheating why not show us the code? IF they do not want to cheat why not have voter verified paper records? The cheating was BLATANT and PERSUASIVE. The only question is are we going to let them do it again?
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pauldavid Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. But how would we stop
them form doing it again. I didnt let them cheat, they just are and no matter what the exit polls show, people just keep going on not caring.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Go out into the street and yell
'I am Mad as Hell, and I am not going to take it any more!'
Then go to your local election commission and demand that they explain their open fair electoral process. Bring some friends.
Remember this is all LOCAL folks. If you are waiting for 'Leadership' look in the mirror.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Hundreds of friends, with TV camera crews filming the scene.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. Discrepancies parallel the exit polls. Are you listening, naysayers?
That's all it takes: 3-4%

Give them back to Kerry.
Oh, forgot.
He wants to give up fighting in Ohio.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. Awesome!
My state is in the process of getting those Diebold voting machines. I do not want to use them. Hope they have paper ballots for us too.
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SeanQ Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
16. This needs to be pushed to the MSM news, with reminders of
key statistical indicators of possible (probably!) problems in the 2004 vote!
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. If all goes as planned, the recount will commence in a week or two.
If the recount results match the parallel election, then it's time to start screaming for the MSM to cover this--or take to the streets ourselves with flyers if they don't.
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
18. An official parallel system
Has anyone ever discussed deploying a parallel voting system? Even in a limited and random distribution it might reduce the prevalence of fraud.

I'm proposing a dual voting systems in the booth and not an exit poll.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
36. Legislate it? Interesting idea.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #18
38. How about a National Vote Audit?
Seems like that's what they're doing. Auditing. I think an audited vote should count more than an anonymous one, but that's just my way of thinking.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!



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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
46. WAshington State does this--- read Landsharks work at
votersunite.org
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
53. WAshington does it read about this at votersunite-- LAnd sharks suit
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
25. kick and nom'd nt
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
27. KICK!!! n/t
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. Thanks! I'm the journalist that wrote the piece.
Edited on Thu Aug-18-05 10:17 PM by Liberty Belle
Have you seen the Lyn Landis article yet in Freepress? She's calling for parallel elections to be held nationwide.

With signed ballots at the parallel elections, that could be used as proof that will hold up in court. Convince people to give up secrecy in order to take back control of our country from Diebold.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #30
50. That's how they beat us. Keep the vote secret.
That's why the MSM wanted to do away with the exit polling, too. That way, we can just take their word for it.

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Dynasty_At_Passes Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
40. This is something all states need to adopt....
This is exactly how election fraud and tampering will be forced into the corporate media.

See this glaring untouched evidence:

http://www.answers.com/topic/2004-u-s-presidential-elec...
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
42. Recommended! My God, here's what we can DO!!!!!! Parallel Elections!!!!
I'm late to this. And PROFOUND THANKS to whoever thought it up. It just clicked in my mind. Of course! We can BY-PASS the damned, bipartisanly corrupt election officials who have sold out our right to vote for a future job offer or a week of fun, sun and high-end shopping at the Beverly Hilton*, and who have made election reform so-o-o-o-o difficult, and all the damned Democratic leaders who were/are SILENT about it because of the corruption (I don't even count Bushites--they are beyond corrupt, gone off into the Looking Glass World where the Red Queen forces her minions to PAINT the white roses red). Parallel Elections! Yes! Yes! And yes!

This is the ANSWER to the problem of Diebold and ES&S f---ing us over again in 2006!!!!! This is what we can DO about it! This is what EVERYBODY can do about it--even in states where these election theft machines are hopelessly entrenched.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you for this post, kansasblue!

-------

* Check out Amaryllis post on this week-long hogfest at the Beverly Hilton, two weeks ago, sponsored by Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia, for election officials from around the country. It will burn your eyeballs! You wonder WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY the Democratic Party can be SILENT about Bushite companies counting all the votes with SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code? THIS IS WHY! Electronic voting is a BILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS that has corrupted everyone and everything it has touched--and has sent young men to die in war, and has given traitors the keys to our nuclear arsenal, and has permitted the torture memo writer Alberto Gonzales to be appointed as chief law enforcement officer of the U.S.A., and and has transformed Congress into "pod people," and has robbed our country blind, and has demoralized our fellow Americans and made them feel powerless, and has destroyed our democracy!

Check it out!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

-------

One more rant: PLEASE stop calling the evil, war profiteering, lying, good for nothing, corporate news monopolies "MAINSTREAM"! Stop using the acronym "MSM" ("mainstream news media"). It's an illusion, a lie; it's brainwashing; it's propaganda. They are NOT the mainstream. They are not even close. Please!
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
43. Election fraud must be stopped
Period.
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StefanX Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
44. I've been starting to feel that "parallel elections" are the way to go
It's not hard to implement a system where every voter can verify that his or her vote was counted - there are various technologies out there, ranging from hi-tech solutions to simple paper ballots.

Unfortunately, the current system can't do that - and so it's losing legitimacy.

I want to emphasize that the reason the current system is "wrong" isn't because Dems keep losing by suspicious, razor-thin margins - the system is wrong because nobody has any way of verifying that it's right. We cast our ballot into some kind of electronic black-box and then walk away, "trusting" that it gets counted. This is bad for all voters - be they Dems or Repubs.

In our competitive, market-based society, whenever there is a need, someone comes along to fill it. Right now there is a need for elections which are PROVABLY fair. And someone's coming along to fill it.

Like I say, this ain't rocket science. Banks manage to total up our ATM transactions very accurately by giving paper receipts and having two persons present when a cash-deposit envelope is opened, and LOTTO drawings are held on TV so we can all witness it to make sure there's no tampering. These are just some of the mechnisms American ingenuity has put into place in order to guarantee there's no hanky-panky going on.

It's only a matter of time before somebody comes along with a voting system which is provably fair. There's a need for this, and someone will come up with it. Already exit polls are being cited as evidence of electoral tampering - but they just take a random sample of the population so they're not totally credible. And now people are starting to think in terms of "parallel elections" - setting up a system which is provably safe and secure to replace the one we have which is mysterious and murky. This is an idea whose time has come.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
47. Kick for a damned good idea --
:kick:
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
48. Kick!
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
49. kick.nt
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. PPR BALLTS HAND CNTED: FRANCE GERM. ITALY CANADA
it is the best system.

any machine has crannies in which geniuses will invent new ways to steal votes. Ways you never thought possible.

toss ALL machines.
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
55. Kevin Shelley, I believe, first created this
I believe "parallel monitoring" was his conception as a remedy for the holes in security he unearthed. Am I wrong?
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organik Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
56. funny, this is the only place I've heard this story.
shouldn't this be a MAJOR national news story? just a thought....
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