Another Bev Harris Fabrication?

[Andy_Stephenson]

David Allen and I just had a conversation…compared notes and what is this?

David asked me “what was the deal with the "CPA" Bev had contact him over the royalties”. I said what CPA I wasn’t aware of any CPA. Apparently Bev invoked a clause in her contract to get royalties audited at her expense back in April. “Sonja” the “CPA” had the same street address Termite and I, and I assumed he was talking about the Apartment Building.

When David queried her about it, she said she worked in the same building that we lived in. Thinking he was talking about the apartment building I was managing, I told him that the only two businesses in the building were a dress shop and a Christian Science Reading Room.

Now I do remember Bev saying she was going to send him a letter asking for royalties...but I had never heard of a CPA's involvement until now. David had started to provide records but said he became suspicious of her questions, and also, what she didn't ask for. When he offered her the invoices from the printer, which would have established how many books had been printed, she said she didn't need them. This is exactly the kind of thing an auditor asks for first. Like Bev always says..."It's not what they give you...but what they don't".

Well, I asked David again what address Sonja had given him…turns out Sonja was working out of MY HOUSE…which was being remodeled and had no plumbing. Remember, Termite and I were managing an apartment building, as our house was being remodeled. When David began to question her questions, she turned hostile. Said she was certain he had cheated Bev out of something like $5000. David’s accountant said she was either a fraud or the accounting equivalent of a shyster/quack.

I asked David if it was possible that Bev was Sonja. David said he had not thought of that, but that I brought up an excellent point. Apparently she would NEVER talk to him on the phone and he could find NO listing for her company. He said “Bev has been using this lie (that a CPA reported that I had cheated her) to smear me”. This Sonja chick said she knew me but I had never heard of her until David brought it up to me this morning. So I am wondering…did Bev really talk to a legit CPA or is she lying? If she did talk to a legit CPA I would really like to see the information or she should stop saying David stole money from her.

[sniffa]

1. pass the popcorn

i'm sure the bevies wiLL be here any minute.

[Andy_Stephenson]

2. All this was news to me...

I am sure David will be in later to provide more interesting documentation.

[kster]

47. You must be

psychic !

[lateo]

3. Sounds like Bev has...

gone off the deep end...

Too bad.

[Boredtodeath]

5. Uhh, wait, now........

This means Bev was off the deep end a year ago.

This didn't happen recently; all this occurred nearly a year ago if my memory serves me right.

And just where is her board of directors in all this?

[Andy_Stephenson]

8. There was no BOD...

in April.

[greatauntoftriplets]

4. Did Sonja pay her rent on time?

Did she run to the next-door neighbor to use the bathroom?

You and David should compare some more notes....interesting what you come up with when you do.

[Andy_Stephenson]

9. If she paid rent...

Termite and I never saw any of it.

As for the facilities...:shrug:

[Nothing Without Hope]

6. Oh, Andy, this is all so ugly and you need to surround yourself with

the opposite.

Yes, I can well imagine that this is another Bev "incident." It would not surprise me at all, and I bet one of the reasons why the situation suggests the reading you propose is that it fits her thinking and tactics.

But I wish you wouldn't torture yourself with thinking about it now. You have told David what he needs to know. It's up to him now how he uses your suggestion and information.

How I wish I could just email you comfort, healing and beauty. I will try to visualize sending them to you -- there is even a thread on this now!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3246327

I do believe the truth about Bev and her "incidents" will eventually be exposed. But for now, please try to get her out of your mind.

[Andy_Stephenson]

7. I know...I should not have to be dealing with this.

But Bev has dissed me publicly. I need to make sure I am covered in the event she tries to accuse me of stealing money from the org. I want to state here...I never had access to the checkbook or to the credit card. The only time I ever used the card was to fill the rental cars up with gas. That was the extent of my use of it.

[Nothing Without Hope]

15. Bev cannot prove you are a thief because it would be a lie.

And if she tried to declare you are one in some kind of extended smear campaign, I think she would be surprised at how the number of your friends and supporters has grown and the number of hers has shrunk, as has her credibilty. I believe that the attempt would damage HER more than you.

But I am very serious about your needing to get your mind off this now. What bad company thoughts of Bev and what she has done and might do are! If she is indeed not entirely sane, then reasoning about her isn't likely to accomplish much anyway. What it WILL do is contribute to YOUR anxiety and push away peace and healing. Doesn't sound like a good priority choice, does it?

Andy, you need to give yourself a break. Be KIND to yourself and turn to things that nurture you. You have worked your heart out fighting for all of us. Now listen to us when we tell you you have not only more than earned a break, you NEED it badly. Please don't let anxiety over that woman rob you of your rest and peace.

Now for a change of topic. I'd like to know if you are reading standard-sized paperback books. If you are, and you don't object to animal-derived products, I'd like to make you something that I know that you would enjoy: a leather paperback book cover that is amazingly soft and endlessly pleasing to the touch. If you have a favorite color or motif, let me know and I'll see about including it in the design. And if you'll PM me with info about what your preferences are in reading books that are for pleasure, we can settle on what book comes INSIDE the bookcover. (You can then transfer it to all the subsequent paperback books you read.) It's a small luxury and also an inducement to read for pleasure, which I think you should be able to turn to more than you have been allowing yourself to do.

So PM me so we can settle your preferences and I'll get to work on your very special book cover.

[Andy_Stephenson]

18. Wow!

Cool...My favorite thing in the world is to work the soil and cultivate my garden. There is nothing in the world that is more pleasurable to me than when I am in my garden with nature. I felt guilty the other day because I spent 7.00 buck on some plants for the garden...But I realized that the hour I spent in the graden prepping the soil and planting those plants was worth more in healing than I spent.

When late spring is here and all the plants are in bloom...then is when I sit in the garden and read. The birds...the sounds of the wind through the tress...that to me is heaven.

I love my garden...if I did not have a patch of earth to plant in...I donn't know what I would do.

[Nothing Without Hope]

36. Do you know about this place?

They are great, their products have made it possible for me to grow tomatoes again when they had all been lost ( :cry: I LOVE my tomatoes!!!!) for two years running. All natural, no pesticides, great products:
http://www.gardensalive.com/Default.asp?bhcd2=1110497576

How about if I arrange for a gift certificate at GardensAlive or some other garden-related company instead of the donation I was planning on sending you? It wouldn't be much, but maybe it would cheer you.

And I'm serious about that extremely luscious leather paperback book cover (it also would have a bookmark built in). They are a joy and they cannot be bought in a store, only handmade by a friend. But we need to settle on a book that would also be a joy to you that I can put inside. PM me and we can discuss that. Trust me, it would add a bit more oomph to the pleasure of reading in your garden, and I would greatly enjoy making it for you. Please don't deprive me of this pleasure.

[Andy_Stephenson]

38. ok cool

the book...of course would have to be

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0696221446/qid=1110491510/sr=1-15/ref=sr_1_15/102-7829194-3480130?v=glance&s=books

The cover...well...suprise me.

[Nothing Without Hope]

43. Garden book has just been ordered

and I will arrange for the gift certificate soon. I will arrange for it to be sent to the PO Box address that was posted for you. (The book will be mailed to me and then I will mail it to you with whatever else is ready to send.) But the book cover I'm planning won't fit the garden book, it's for smaller standard-sized paperbacks of the dimensions of supermarket novels, though a huge number of great books come in that format too of course. So we still need to determine if one of the many great books that I need to clear off my shelves is something you would enjoy. I guess another round of discussion on your reading tastes is needed, but it doesn't need to be right now.

I can PM you sometime in the next couple of days with a list of possible books from my overextensive-gotta-go collection and you can choose among them or reject them all, to be replaced by another list of possibilities.

How does that sound?

[Andy_Stephenson]

44. Sounds Great!

lemme know.

[Kelvin Mace]

73. Thanks for starting that thread

I too agree that Andy needs to focus on himself rather than Bev and will now try and steer him in that direction.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[JunkYardDogg]

10. Maybe Bev is a Special Rendition Agent?

And this is their way of dragging you thru Hell
This is the last thing you should have to deal with

[Andy_Stephenson]

12. Well I imagine so...but I am not stressing on this.

people I thought were my enemies in all this...have actually been my biggest defenders. I am no longer worried about Bev. I did this post for David...his name needs a final clearing. He is a good man...and I for one respect him more than I can say!

Cheers David!

[Old and In the Way]

11. Would this be a Tragedy or a Comedy?

I see elements of both in this....the more I learn about Bev Harris, the sadder it gets...

[ohio_liberal]

13. CPA huh?

CPA's are licensed in Washington State. You could find, or not find if that be the case, this Sonja lady's license pretty easily.

http://www.cpaboard.wa.gov/search/default.htm

[eridani]

84. No Sonja or Sonia in Seattle n/t

[ohio_liberal]

85. Nope

and no surprise, no "Sonya", "Sonja", or "Sonia" matching the criteria in any of the 50 states, including Guam, Puerto Rico, and D.C. Yes, I checked license/certificate holders of CPAs, and PAs where applicable, in all 53 databases and the AICPA. I can only conclude that somebody posing as an auditor - who would have to be a CPA by law in WA - used Bev Harris' attorney (with or without his knowledge of the situation, it's not been determined) to convince David to open up his Paypal account for examination. And they didn't do very a very good job of it.

[Cocoa]

14. people who are upset at themselves for falling for Bev's scam

ask yourself, what exactly is different about the BBV remnants that remain at DU?

To me, their sudden break from Bev is unexplainable, except by internal wrangling. There's nothing about Bev that wasn't obvious right from the beginning.

And the tactics are identical. In this thread, for example, the tactic is discussing things publicly that can't possibly be verified.

DUers that want to follow along have no choice but to take these people at their word.

Not wise, people, but it's your money. :-(

[NC Beach Girl]

16. the difference

While I understand your point completely, I think the difference between the ex-BBVers and Bev herself are fairly simple:

-Bev is a proven liar, her own words prove it over and over again. I have never seen proof that Andy, David, Roxanne, Eloriel, and countless others left in Bev's wake are liars.

-the remnants of the old BBV are not actively collecting money for implied promises of overturning elections, cashing in on peoples' hopes and fears for a profit. Most are quietly working behind the scenes on their own dime or with other organizations.

I have seen Andy trying to fund raise for specific things, but he was, in my opinion, completely open about what those funds were going to instead of the Bev method of not really letting donors know what she was doing or where money was going...and of course, lying about how much she got.

-I have never seen any ex-BBVer have a total meltdown on a public message board, post under various fake names, or act ridiculous and delete the evidence later on their own sites...I've seen Bev do it too many times to count. Bev seems to have some serious mental problems and I have not observed any ex-BBVers displaying this unfortunate condition.

I agree that nobody should donate money to anyone if they don't feel comfortable, but I don't think everyone who was formerly associated with Bev should be painted with the same brush as she is. The biggest saving grace of ex-BBVers is that despite the embarrassment of admitting it, most came out openly and admitted they were bamboozled by her and have tried to warn the rest of us before we gave her any more money.

[Cocoa]

17. you shouldn't have to wait for proof they're lying

you should make them prove they're telling the truth. And use your common sense in the meantime. Common sense, rather than blind following, would cause you to conclude Bev was a fraud. And the same now.

And these people weren't just "associated" with Bev, they served as thugs on DU, ganging up on anyone that had simple factual and logical disagreements with her, and ordering these dissenters to leave the discussion, and throwing all kinds of ridiculous accusations against simple dissenters.

[Andy_Stephenson]

19. Cocoa...your right...guilty as charged...

and I apologize.

Peace,

Andy

[thebigidea]

20. see? Bev would never in a million years bother to express regret

[NC Beach Girl]

22. yep

Nor would she apologize or admit she was EVER wrong.

[Cocoa]

24. sure she has

once Bev was caught bragging about sending a fellow activist on a "snipe hunt" -- her words -- and she apologized very "sincerely."

[Andy_Stephenson]

25. Difference cocoa...

Bev continues the same actions.

[Cocoa]

30. I'm seeing some of the same old BBV stuff

like I mentioned above, this very thread is an example of the old tricks.

Pitting people against a common enemy, claiming victimization, appealing to sympathy, asking people to make judgements about things they can't verify, etc.

Same old stuff.

[Andy_Stephenson]

34. cocoa, Bev started all of this...

every accusation made here can be backed up.

Bev has trashed me...used me (almost to death) and here I sit...sick sad sorry and sober.

Bev has made accusations against David, which after talking we find to be untrue...he has the evidence to back it up. Should we let the lie stand?

[Cocoa]

40. defending yourself against someone that's been banned?

that's classic BBV. An exercise whose only value is to strenghten the cult.

[Andy_Stephenson]

42. She was only again banned

yesterday.

[Sydnie]

48. Andy, I have been so busy at work this week and way out of the loop

so bear with me when I ask this question... She was back yesterday posting? Where?

Hope you are feeling better really soon. You have more friends here than you even know dude!

[Kelvin Mace]

49. We are pretty sure she was posting under the name Bailey77

in this thread and others:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=340188&mesg_id=340188

The tone, the comments, the fact that slowly but surely she reveals details about Bev's personal life, the style of arguing was classic Bev.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Sydnie]

52. Oh David -- why did I have to leave so early yesterday? LOL

I missed the first thread, then emailed you after you posted the "final chapter" thread, never knowing that the first thread existed.

It was, IMHO as well, none other than Bev herself posting as Bailey77. The writing style is the same and she did appear to know everything there was to know about Bev didn't they?

I reiterate what I said in my email to you yesterday, even more so today!!!

Bev is doing more all by herself to torpedo "the movement" than any other single person ever.

Riddle me this, Batman. What (other than the money she has raised in the past here) could make her return here and get into a flame war like that? I looked back at all of "Bailey77" posts and there were a rare few that didn't have a direct connection with bbv.org or some other "announcement" about that sites activities.

David, you and Andy are my heros! You have been through so much and still have to defend yourself from "the bees in her head" over and over and over.

I know you said you didn't want to persue it any futher (in your email) but there comes a time when you need to do just that. Your reputation needs to be restored, as does Andy's.

:hug: to you for hanging in there and still caring about the issue. Less dedicated people would have given up and given in long ago.

Kudos and :loveya: <-- floatie hearts to both you and Andy.

And if you're reading this Bev -- "Sell crazy somewhere else. We're all full up here".

[ohio_liberal]

61. Hmmm...

Money?

[Kelvin Mace]

76. Thank you for your wonderful remarks

It made my day.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Stephanie]

65. I liked when she said to me "aren't you a writer, Stephanie..."

"why aren't you using your writing skills for election reform?"

Very interesting that bailey77 who I have never met and who is a new poster here at DU would have any personal information about me at all! How is this possible? I have never posted at DU that I am a writer. Ever.

It was definitely Bev posting. And I have met Bev many times.

[Kelvin Mace]

68. You poor child.

It was definitely Bev posting. And I have met Bev many times.

[loudsue]

53. What??? Andy, are you serious??

Bev came back to DU??? What name was she using??

:crazy: I didn't get much time on DU yesterday, so I missed it! I'll bet it was a real barn-burner of a thread!

:cry: How come I always miss the exciting stuff??

O8) I hope you're feeling MUCH better, and stronger every day. O8)

Please take the advice you were given, and keep your mind on love, peace, your garden and your loved ones!

:loveya:

Sue

[Kelvin Mace]

54. The link is here

she was posting as Baily77.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=340188&mesg_id=340188

You will also want to read this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3246549&mesg_id=3246549

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

50. Here I must disagree

I have made a point in my posts of linking to Bev's own words, posting documents, emails, etc.

If you wish me to post the emails I got from "Sonja" I can do that.

If you are prepared to say I have fabricated the emails (headers and all) then there's not much I can do.

When Bev makes the accusation, "David Allen never paid me a dime for my book!" and I post a GIF of th canceled check, is that not sufficient proof?

I am not trying to rally people behind me to take the "leadership" of BBV. The effort is beyond Bev and beyond me and I am completely happy with that. I am doing my small part in my own state to fight against paperless voting.

Tonight I was a speaker at a community college courtesy of the Chatham Co. Women Democrats. I was there with Justin Moore and Chuck Herrin. I urged folks to push their legislators to pass a bill banning paperless voting.

And that's how it should be. All of us working in our own communities to fix the problem from the local level, not one person as the messiah.

That said, I have this crazy woman who is attacking me, threatening litigtion, harming the efforts of local activists with her temper tantrums and taking people's hard-earned money and lying to them about it.

Yes, I got suckered. Many of us got suckered. You didn't and now you have the pleasure of saying "I told you so".

But you had instinct which served you well, but it didn't serve us. Now we have hard evidence and you want us to keep quiet.

What I want is Bev to do is to leave me the FUCK alone. Stop talking about me, stop smearing me, stop harassing me, just FUCKING STOP!

And while she's at it, lay off everyone else she has a personal vendetta against.

She won't.

People come up to me and ask about the book and about Bev (as they did tonight) and I just smile sadly and say "Well, Bev and I parted company." People mention me to Bev and Bev lights into what a crook I am.

Good name in man and woman, dear my lord,
Is the immediate jewel of their souls:
Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him
And makes me poor indeed.

Bev was banned from here because of her refusal to follow the rules. I have no doubt that I would not be allowed to post on her forums under any circumstances. She has a very popular platform from which to defend herself, so I do not feel we are attacking a helpless opponent.

I have gone out of my way to document my claims against Bev as meticulously as possible. Go back and tell me how much proof Bev offered for her accusations.

If Bev wants this to stop all she has to is stop attacking us and stop trying to push her views on the DU community personally or by proxy.

The argument you make in your post could be made in defense of Gannon/Guckert. He's not here to defend himself so we shouldn't condemn his illegal/unethical actions. Should people who found out he was a gay prostitute have just kept quiet?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

29. Well, you have a point there, Cocoa

Since you could characterize me as one of those thugs, and however painful it may be for me to realize that, it means I must apologize for any comment I made against you that would have hurt you or been unfair.

The only excuse I can offer is that I am human and sometimes we get to close to something.

My cynicism has been adjusted accordingly.

I am sorry I offended you and/or unjustly maligned you.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[ohio_liberal]

62. Well I for one

am glad that this stuff is brought into the light.

[Kelvin Mace]

21. I feel like an idiot that I didn't twig to this earlier

Now I am going to try and tie Bev to "Sonja's" email address which is:

[email protected]

In my desire to prove that I hadn't stolen anything from Bev I provided a lot of documentation to "Sonja".

I was initailly suspicious and asked for confirmation from Bev that she was acting for Bev.

I got this email from Lowell Finley, Bev's attorney:

Dear Mr. Allen,

This is to confirm that Sonja Johnson of Johnson Group, PLC is acting on behalf of Bev Harris in conducting the audit of book sales.

- Lowell Finley

So, I started turning over copies of my records and pointing out how they matched what I had given to Bev.

She then said she had to have direct access to my PayPal account to insure that the numbers provided had not been altered.

Yes, I can hear you screaming, "No, David, NO!!!!"

Now, understand, I was under pretty steady vicious assault by Bev and her minions at this time. She's online calling me a cheat, people are sending me nasty emails. I am very upset at the unfairness of it all and am anxious to clear my name. I look at my PayPal account and only have something like $20 in it. So, what harm can it do? She can't steal much and Finley says she's working for Bev. CPA's have a code of ethics to abide by, as do lawyers (supposedly).

I agree to give her access but stipulate that I will not email such information, she should call me or give me her number instead and I'll give it on the phone. She tells me:

I am doing tax work, on deadline, and am not in my office, nor is it appropriate for me to use my client's phone for Ms. Harris's audit work. I had asked Mr. Allen for the user name and password to the PayPal account and he has agreed to provide these, but he feels uncomfortable doing so by email. Mr. Finley, can you give him a short call at 888.xxx.xxxx to obtain this information? I will touch base with you later in the evening to obtain the password.

OK, Lowell's office calls (caller ID shows his number). I give them the info. Two hours later I get an email from "Sonja" saying she has downloaded the info and I can change the password.

Over the course of the next week she asks for routine stuff like Amazon records and such.

But the PayPal thing bothered me. Then I offered to send her my printer invoices and she said she didn't need them. This sounded wrong to me and I called my brother-in-law who is a CPA and asked him about it. He said that would be one of the FIRST things he would have asked for since it established how many books were available to sell.

Now things are bugging me and I start stalling on further requests. I start checking up on "Sonja" and can't find her in the phone book, or as a listed CPA in the state of Washington. I check her address in Google and up pops Andy's address.

I am also appalled to see that Bev and Jim March are now telling people that the "audit" has revealed I cheated her out of $6000 and failed to report THOUSANDS of sales, which was a hoot since I had only printed 1,100 books at that point.

I now confront "Sonja" and ask for explanations about why she isn't listed in the book, or with Washington state's register of CPAs or licensed accountants and why her address is the same as Andy.

She responds:

You will receive a copy of the report. I do not anticipate that it will be complete until late this week or early next week. I do not have exact figures for the discrepancies yet, but I would estimate perhaps $6,000 is owed by Plan Nine to Ms. Harris at this time.

She is going to issue a report, yet she hasn't finished her "audit"

As for the address: It is house, rented out by its owner, who is Andy Stephenson's partner. Mr. Stephenson does not live here, but does come by now and then to do maintenance work.

She never answers the question about her phone number of absence from official registers.

She concludes:

I can tell you at this point that the accounting that you originally sent Ms. Harris was less than forthcoming. I will leave it to her to ask you why you misrepresented your sales figures, but there is no doubt that you did so. I am so certain of this that I believe Ms. Harris could line up any ten accountants chosen at random from a telephone directory, and every one of them would concur with my conclusions.

My accountant, a former CPA hit the roof. REAL CPAs do NOT talk this way. They simply state things in very neutral terms. "This number did not match that report, resulting in a shortage of x".

Now it's obvious that this was just another of Bev's scams. I now have serious doubts that Sonja Johnson exists. At best, she exists and was one of Bev's lackeys. At worst, it was Bev pulling a "Bailey77".

If anybody has any ideas on how to tie this email address to Bev let me know. I do know that AOL allows you to have multiple screen names and I will have my lawyer check into what will be required to get the information from AOL.

I have been played for the fool and in my desire to clear my name, walked right into Bev's con game.

This is depressing.

[ohio_liberal]

23. Nope

No Sonja Johnson listed in the state of WA as a CPA.

You did change your paypal passwords and such, right?

And Lowell Findley is a practicing, licensed attorney correct?

[Andy_Stephenson]

26. Lowell is an Attorney in

California. I am suprised he would back up Bev's scams. Lowell has always struck me as an honest guy. Not a flim flam artist.

[ohio_liberal]

28. Well

I would hope that he wouldn't be stupid enough to perpetrate a fraud by using a fake CPA to mine data from David's accounts, but you never know. That sounds like some seriously inappropriate behavior for an attorney.

[Kelvin Mace]

31. Yep

You did change your paypal passwords and such, right?

Immediatley afterwards.


And Lowell Findley is a practicing, licensed attorney correct?

I feel an ethics complaint is in order.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[ohio_liberal]

33. OK

I just spoke with a CPA, mostly in generalities, no names, no real specifics.

Passing yourself off as a CPA is probably fraud, especially when it occurs with the intent to mine data such as information from your Paypal account. I say "probably" fraud, because the CPA I spoke just isn't positive because NOBODY, and I mean nobody, does stupid shit like this. Now, did this occur before or after BBV.org became a 501(c)(3)? This might be important, later.

If Lowell Findley has direct knowledge of this then he's probably in deep shit.

Edit to add:

A CPA would never ask for this kind of sensitive information by phone or by email. They do damn near everything in writing and in person.

[tsuki]

55. Have you had any more contact with Lowell Findley?

[Kelvin Mace]

56. No,

but I am considering an ethics complaint with the California Bar.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[tsuki]

57. You got an email and a toll free number. Everything that I have ever

gotten from an attorney has a great big letterhead and is mailed. I wondered about the email. Is that standard in CA? I live in FL, where maybe the technology hasn't caught up.

[Kelvin Mace]

58. Not sure the exact point here

as I am pretty tired this morning.

His office called my toll free number for some of our communications. When they called I checked the number in my caller ID against his listing. The emails that were sent to me originated from his email address and the headers look legitimate.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[tsuki]

63. I am not sure either. But it is a convoluted story. I think I would be

contacting the attorney for an explanation. Is she using him for a conduit? Does he know what is going on? Is he a party to it, or just accommodating his client?

I am involved in an imminent domain thing now, and the attorney for me is hiring his guys.

I guess I mean, if he was involved wouldn't he want his own accountant?

[ohio_liberal]

64. Most attorneys

don't know jack about accounting or tax. Sure, they might recommend someone they've used before, or maybe even have an attorney who is also a CPA on staff. This is just all speculation, but I would say it's safe to assume that this "CPA" was Bev's choice and the attorney was just acting on Bev's behalf in contacting David.

[Kelvin Mace]

70. OK, now I gotcha.

To be fair, I suppose he could have been suckered as well. If Andy didn't know about the scam when it happened, she might have kept the real reasons from Finley. It's not like she has a problem lying.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[ohio_liberal]

27. David

Do you still have the emails from "Sonja Johnson"? Wouldn't the full headers of the email contain some trackable information?

[Kelvin Mace]

32. Yes, I have them all

But it looks like a genuine AOL account.


From - Wed Apr 07 15:47:32 2004
X-UIDL: 9949b1daa4220000
X-Mozilla-Status: 0003
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Received: by sphinx (mbox plan9)
(with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Apr 7 12:49:09 2004)
X-From_: [email protected] Wed Apr 7 12:21:54 2004
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx54.postini.com <12.158.34.233>)
by sphinx.got.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.6) with SMTP id i37JLnoP013891
for <[email protected]>; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:21:49 -0700
Received: from source (<207.111.203.182>) by exprod5mx54.postini.com (<12.158.34.245>) with SMTP;
Wed, 07 Apr 2004 14:21:46 CDT
Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com <205.188.157.37>)
by hammer.godmomasforge.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i37JLJJF020381
for <[email protected]>; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:21:20 -0700
Received: from [email protected]
by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.2.) id n.79.26576d84 (16335);
Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:21:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:21:31 EDT
Subject: Book sales audit for Bev Harris
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected], [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1081365691"
X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5107

[ohio_liberal]

35. Excellent

Need somebody with IP/SMTP knowledge to have a look at this.

I think this is the originating IP addy "12.158.34.233"

Not positive though.

[ohio_liberal]

37. David

Check the headers from an email from Bev Harris herself. Check the IP addys, see if any of them match.

[Mistwell]

39. Some Free Legal Advice

Andy,

First, I hope you are feeling better. We are all pulling for you here at DU.

Second, Bev Harris is a real person. And though it seems like she is a public figure given her exposure here at DU, she is not what is considered a public figure as far as the law is concerned (that sort of thing is for Presidents, Movie Stars, and that sort of thing).

That means the standard for libel is actually not that high. You do not have to prove actual malice to prove libel against a person who is not a public figure.

This means you could be sued by Bev for the things you say in this public forum. If anything you say is false or misleading, you could face a pretty serious lawsuit. Heck, even if everything you are saying is true, that just means you have a defense to bring up during a lawsuit, and not that you are shielded from Bev suing you and getting past a summary judgement or motion to dismss.

In addition there is the possibility that DU itself could be dragged into such a lawsuit. DU can avoid some liability by listing an agent with the copyright office for receipt of complaints under the DMCA (which, though it seems like it applies to just copyright, can also help with harassment and libel cases), but they have not done that so far (though they should - it's like $35 and shields a lot of liability - see http://www.copyright.gov/onlinesp/ ). That means your actions can put DU at risk as well. (To see how cases are mixed for this issue and how it works with the CDA, see http://www.phillipsnizer.com/library/topics/defamation_cda.cfm ).

So, my free advice (which I suppose is worth about as much as you are paying for it) is that you not post these kinds of accusations and details in a public forum. You are putting yourself at risk, and you are putting DU at risk.

I understand your issues with Bev Harris, and I am in no way saying you are justified or not justified in how you feel about her and her organization. All I am saying is that it seems like a legally bad idea to me to be posting this stuff in this public forum.

At least, that's my two cents. Others may differ, and you are of course free to ignore this advice.

[Andy_Stephenson]

41. Well...

www.thoughtcrimes.org/blame_andy.htm

Can I sue her for that?

[Mistwell]

45. Yes

Yes, I think you can. No idea if you would win, but I strongly suspect you would at least get past a motion for summary judgement or dismissal.

In my many years experience of advising companies about what to say about employees that were terminated, that post pretty much goes against every bit of my advice. Even if she believes in every word of what was written there, it's just extremely unwise to do that. I tell people to usually respond to prospective new employers of people that they terminated with something along the lines of "Yes, I can confirm that the person you are inquiriing about did work here. Their employment began on X and continued through to Y. It is our policy to not comment on the performance or former employees nor on the reasons for employment separation."

There is an exception to that for people who are terminated for directly endangering the lives of others (like, if a bus driver is fired for shooting students on his bus, and another bus company calls to get information on why the employee was terminated, a pat answer is not necessarily appropriate). However, I don't think that exception applies here, as nothing you are accused of doing seems to rise to the level of of requiring that the public be informed about your alleged "evil deeds".

I don't know if Bev Harris or her company has the money to pay for a verdict against them sufficient enough to attract an attorney to represent you on a contingency basis. In addition, your posts in response may have "tainted" your case to the point that it would no longer be attractive for an attorney to represent you on a contingency basis. However, I do think it would be worth your time and trouble to discuss it with an attorney and find out. Your state bar association for whatever state you live in can probably help refer you to a list of qualified attorneys.

[DELUSIONAL]

46. Andy this is like reading a soap opera

Amazing claims she is making.

You went on record with your side very early on.

This looks like slander to me.

Andy and David -- I'm sorry you both are being put through hell by this person.

Someone did something similar to me --- and I did come out the other side.

The best way to recover is to share your experiences with B.H. and to listen and support each other. Plus you are warning others that they can get burned by this very sad excuse for a human being.

It also sounds like B.H. wants to ruin both of you financially -- what on earth did you do to her? Nothing. You've done nothing to go after you both with such viciousness.

Perhaps what she wants is to take your mantle of respectability -- your personal reputation. If she manages to degrade and destroy both of you then perhaps she will feel superior to you and feel she has taken your respectability. If you two are no longer respectable (and it was she who supposedly exposed you) -- then she must be superior to both of you -- in her twisted way of seeing the world. She would be wearing your good reputations and could get rid of her disreputable reputation.

The problem is that people like B.H. appear to be stable and sane -- but then they will target someone that they feel has a superior reputation.

I see a pattern here -- since something similar happened to me. On a much smaller scale -- the person who attempted to steal my reputation was a small time con artist compared to B.H.

These are con artists -- and they have to tear people down in order to make themselves feel superior.

It doesn't take a degree in Psychology to figure out that something is very wrong with the person who calls herself B.H.

Thanks for sharing your insights and experience with BBV, Andy & Allen, this may be the only way to preserve and save your reputation -- putting you side on the record, a.s.a.p.

[Kelvin Mace]

51. She is a public figure

and she works hard at it. She has been on TV, radio, and in newspapers and magazines. Her TV apperances include mainstream network television, She's been on nationally syndicated radio shows such as Randi Rhodes, Al Franken, Unfiltered and Mike Malloy. She has been in Wired!, Vanity Faire, Newsweek, Time, about a dozen Associated Press stories and the subject of three documentaries. She has been interviewed by dozens of local papers and media outlets.

A shy and retiring private citizen she ain't.

My lawyer told me I am a public figure even though I have had about two orders of magnitude less exposure than Bev.

I am able to prove all of what I have discussed and have the emails and documents to back it up.We have caught Ms. Harris in lies on numerous occasions and have proved her dishonesty with her own words posted to this very forum.

I appreciate the advice and certainly don't want to endanger DU. If Skinner pops on and locks a thread or gives me a caution I'll move on. I am pretty sure that topics such as this are monitored closely because of past headaches with Bev and if they had a problem they would have chimed in by now.

Thanks for the advice, I do appreciate your concern and have pondered your points any time this comes up.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Mistwell]

59. Could be a public figure

It is certainly possible she has thrust herself into the limelight to present her side of the story sufficiently to qualify as a public figure. I was not aware she ever even made it into mainstream media outlets (which just shows I have not followed this controversey close enough). However, since that is a determination for the Courts, and often a fairly subjective call, I wouldn't bank on it.

Here is some case law about the issue (text taken from another web site... http://www.journalism.wisc.edu/~drechsel/j559/readings/LibelOverheads2.html )

* Gertz: Even extremely prominent attorney representing family in high profile, controversial case does not become limited-purpose public figure merely by act of representing family. This does not constitute voluntary injection into controversy to influence outcome.
* Firestone: Prominent socialite does not become voluntary public figure in connection with media coverage of her divorce. Involvement in litigation does not constitute voluntary injection into public controversy, nor is explanatory news conference automatically an effort to influence outcome. Public controversy is not the same thing as all occurrences of interest to the public: newsworthiness NOT same as public controversy
* Wolston: Involvement as witness in criminal investigation does not inherently transform one into a public figure even if one has refused to comply with grand jury subpoena in high-profile espionage case
* Hutchins: Government-employed researcher does not become public figure by virtue of applying for and receiving government research grant for project that becomes controversial. Media cannot make someone a public figure merely by covering that person.

[Kelvin Mace]

60. Thanks

I'll read up on it.

Andy, could you list the MSM appearances Bev made?

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Andy_Stephenson]

69. Well lets see...

msnbc, CNN, Vanity Fair, Wired, Seattle Times, San Jose Mercury News...and a very long long list of others.

[Mistwell]

74. Except it isn't about appearing just one TV

Public figure does not mean you have appeared in TV in life about a controversial issue. Public figure means you appeared on TV about the controversey in question.

The controversey in question is your employment relationship, not the election fraud controversey.

Now, since you worked for the company in an "election fraud controversey" capacity, it might fly. But I don't think it's a slam dunk.

[Kelvin Mace]

75. I'm confused

Andy is referring to Bev.

I would guess Bev has been on national TV, radio, newspapers and magazines dozens of times.

I just did a quick check of the news on Google and found:

Electronic voting critic Bev Harris, who attained rock-star status among elections conspiracy theorists in 2003 when she found and publicized unprotected source code for Diebold voting machines, advised local activists to broaden their ideological base and file lots of lawsuits."

Palm Beach Post
2/20/05
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politics/content/local_news/epaper/2005/02/21/c1c_geo_0221.html

There was also a story on the 17th, though nothing more recent.

I googled the phrases "Bev Harris" and "Black Box Voting" and returned 24,900 hits.

The just for giggles, I tried a few other names for comparison.

"Siebel Edmonds" - 65 hits
"John Stewart" "daily show" - 23,600
"Joe Conason" columnist - 24,500
"Edward R. Murrow" journalist - 27,100
"senator barbara boxer" - 76,600
"Black Box Voting" "David Allen" - 2,160 hits
"Plan Nine Publishing" - 3,640 (My company is more famous than I am <G>)
"Black Box Voting" "Andy Stephenson" - 570 hits
"Governor Mike Easley" (North Carolina governor) - 13,500 hits
"George Takei" "Star Trek" - 45,600 hits
"charles ponzi" - 4,780 hits
"jim bakker" PTL - 8,510 hits

[kobeisguilty]

77. try "jon stewart" instead of "john stewart"

"jon stewart" "daily show"

I got 706,000 hits.

[Kelvin Mace]

79. Oops

Sorry.

:dunce:

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Andy_Stephenson]

78. "Bev Harris" Voting

48,900 hits

"Andy Stephenson" Voting
4,850

[Mistwell]

80. response

"Andy is referring to Bev." Yes, I know.

Maybe you were confused by the subject I posted. It was a typo. I didn't mean to say "just one tv", I meant "just ON tv".

Andy asked if he could sue Bev for her post about him. I answered yes. I seriously doubt Andy is a public figure for purposes of defamation, and so Andy would probably not need to prove actual malice to show Bev is libelling him.

However, the initial subject was whether or not Bev could sue Andy, and DU, for the posts Andy is making here about Bev. I said she may be able to, since Andy may not be shielded by the defense that Bev is a public figure for purposes of this controversey (the employment controversey, NOT the election fraud controversey). Andy isn't challenging Black Box Voting for its credibility for issues concerning the election fraud controversey, but he is accusing a person, Bev Harris, of stealing money from a company and posing as an accountant in violation of criminal law to further embezzlement. It might require actual malice to prove that Andy is libelling BBV if he says false statements about BBV's anti-election fraud tactics...but it might NOT require actual malice to prove that Andy is libelling Bev Harris, the person, on a personal issue of embezzlement and fraud for things that do not directly relate to the election fraud issue.

I'm no expert on this subject. I just think it's setting off some red flags in my legal spider sense is all.

[Kelvin Mace]

81. I haven't accused her of fraud or embezzlement

In fact, I have pointed out to several folks that the only thing the document proved was that Bev lied about how much money was raised as a result of Randi Rhodes fund raising.

Bev claimed $23,500, our document shows almost $177,000. So, we know Bev is a liar.

Also, I have established in this thread that Bev perpetuated a phoney audit of my books, then went around telling people her bogus report "proved" I stole money from her.

Earlier, Ms. Harris claimed on this forum that she never received a dime from me for her book. I then posted the canceled check, proving that not only had she lied, but her lie was deliberate and malicious.

If Ms. Harris wants to sue me, she has my address and phone number.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[ohio_liberal]

66. Interesting....

Claiming to be a CPA or a CPA firm without holding a CPA license or CPA certificate is a violation of Washington State law.

http://www.cpaboard.wa.gov/invest/ComnComp.htm

Anyone want to help me find the code regarding this?

http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/index.cfm#RCW_by_Title
http://search.leg.wa.gov/pub/textsearch/ViewRoot.asp?Action=Html&Item=1&X=311120945&p=1

[Kelvin Mace]

67. Unfortunately, she only made this claim on the phone.

I am searching the emails to see if she slipped up and said it anywhere else.

I would like folks to check the laws regarding obtaining financial information under false pretenses.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[ohio_liberal]

82. Still, there is this...

In order to provide audit, review, or compilation services to the public, a CPA must hold a license (a Washington state CPA license if they are resident in Washington state) and they must offer the services from a CPA firm licensed by the Board.

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:sg4gWL-KjFMJ:www.cpaboard.wa.gov/consumer/Default.html+washington+state+audit+accounting+cpa+only&hl=en&client=firefox-a


This "PLC" added to the name of the company is interesting as well. It is a relatively new term for "public limited company", used in the UK.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kelvin Mace]

72. Uh, I have actually seen Andy's medical bills

In fact, becasue of accusations like this, Andy had them posted here.

Please rethink/edit your post..

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[smartvoter]

83. Well, I'm convinced that a few of the names out here that have attacked

you are Bev. When challenged, the details that come out give her away and when called on it, she disappears.

Sounds like a genuine nutcase.