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This is a prediction, not a preference, If Clinton is the VP, Obama will win. If not, he will lose.

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 10:59 PM
Original message
This is a prediction, not a preference, If Clinton is the VP, Obama will win. If not, he will lose.
Like I say in the title of this thread, this is not my preference. I always thought that Hillary was running for president, because Bill wanted her to and that she would be happier staying in the Senate for many years rather than being a lightening rod for right wing attacks as president for 8 years. With Kennedy sick, Clinton has more room to assume a position of power as a Senate Democratic leader who is well known throughout the country.

However, Barack Obama faces a significant handicap. Karl Rove has used the most obvious, criminal election theft twice already, in 2000 and in 2004. The press let him get away with it. The DOJ, under the control of Republican administrations did nothing. Even when there was Democratic control of the Senate from 2001-2, they did nothing. The election theft in Ohio was beyond the statistical margins of error and the entire news media had to be persuaded to suppress their exit polls and 25% of American voters suspected that the election was tainted and a member of the HOuse and Senate filed a challenge and Karl Rove still got away with it . With this history, and with the billions that the oil industry stands to make from four more years of inflated oil prices and from continued war and from the billions which the banking industry stands to lose and then gain from its own criminal practices and then the bailouts which Phil Gramm and John McCain will deliver and with the profits that drug companies and the insurance industry will make by keeping health care the way it is and from the money the telecommunications industry stands to make from unlimited mergers and acquisitions there is a lot of financial incentive to support the theft of another election. That last interest---telecommunications---is the one that will enable the theft, since the news media will declare McCain the winner, fair and square, if the industry bosses think he will help their profits. Never mind that all other sectors of the economy besides those described above will be in the toilet.

The press will begin to create a myth that McCain must win---and so when the election is stolen by a narrow margin it will be "Tough luck, Dems. The election was yours to lose and you lost it, because you_____." And the recriminations will begin.

The only thing that can possibly penetrate the news media wall of inevitable victory which they will build around John McCain is the presence of Hillary Clinton and her husband, the ex president Bill Clinton on the Obama team. The American people love Bill Clinton. To them, he is the ultimate winner, a man who stood up to the bullies in Congress the way that Gary Cooper triumphed in High Noon. The press fears Bill Clinton but it will not be able to ignore him. They will try to create controversy, but if he limits himself to trash talking the Bush economy and praising Obama and his wife and reminding people of the relative prosperity of the 1990s, his message will get through the media filters. Lack of experience will vanish as an issue, as it did for W. when Cheney became his VP and for Reagan when Bush Sr, became his VP.

Essentially, the Dems will be offering three charismatic politicians compared to the Republicans' one war hero. Everyone knows that if Bill Clinton could run again, he would win by a landslide. So, if Bill says "Obama is just like me, and Hillary will make a great VP and I will be there in case they need help" you have got a whole new level of inevitability---and public trust. The press will be torn. McCain will no longer be inevitable. He will no longer be the "safe" or tried and true candidate. Obama/Clinton/Clinton will offer both change and safety ---something old and something new. And in the case of the Democrats, the something old will be an actual ex-president who was more effective than any other in recent memory.

This combo would necessitate a lot of ego suppression from three people who are full of ego. But if played right it would lead to a landslide victory that would completely overwhelm any pathetic efforts by Karl Rove to steal the election by shifting votes.

Since no one seems to expect an Obama/Clinton ticket, I am very pessimistic. No matter how many mistakes John McCain makes, the press covers up for him. Soon, they will have him turning water into wine and curing lepers. Last fall, when I predicted that John McCain would be the GOP nominee because he was the only Republican who had a chance in the general I had no idea how violently the press would support him. All this flinging of panties is making me ill. At this point, he could pick Jeb Bush for a running mate, and the press would not even bat an eye.

People who talk about how perfect the Obama campaign has been seem to be looking at some other campaign than the one I have seen. Sometimes, it seems to me that Axelrod was told "We want Obama to win the primary, but after that, we don't care so much." I can imagine scenarios in which people in Chicago might have reasons to need to keep the Bush administration happy, and one way to do that would be to present a Democratic nominee who comes out from the gate looking good but who makes a poor finish in the race.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. * cough * bullshit
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Not even coughing...bullshit. nt
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
60. Indeed - when A MAJORITY OF REGISTERED VOTERS DON'T WANT HER ON HIS TICKET...
...it becomes obvious that the OP is nonsense.

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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #60
82. that is just YOUR opinion without ANY supporting evidence...
The supporting EVIDENCE points loudly to the OPPOSITE conclusion...

nearly half if not over half the country voted for HER.

Must be nice in your delusional world...
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #82
89. In the first half of the year 2008...
about 18 million DEMOCRATS voted for Obama in the primaries.

Also, about 18 million DEMOCRATS voted for Clinton in the primaries.

Therefore, about 36 million DEMOCRATS voted in the first six months of 2008. Which means that there are 36 million DEMOCRATIC votes out there that the presumptive DEMOCRATIC nominee can count on in November.

Right?
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #89
155. yes, lets keep this fire stoked
even though its never going to happen.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #82
95. Please prove that with a link. And if you 'really' think so, what is
going on?

Could the black man be more popular? Is that horrible for you?
And who is delusional?
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #95
120. "Could the black man be more popular"
Please, please, please. Stop the race baiting? I could just as easily charge you with hating women. Could the woman candidate have any validity? is that so horrible to you.

See it doesn't work either way. This nonsense is just what they print out to give rove a chuckle over his morning Cheerios.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #120
128.  Huh? Stuff it. I'm not race baiting, am a woman, and never liked
Clinton. So sue me. And remove your progress in your name, because I don't see it. And BTW, fuck rove. :eyes:
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #128
185. Hillary on ticket = Sorta(?) Pro-War....Maybe (?) Change? and of course
SOL for the Democrats.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #128
186. Words, words, words.
You can't see progress because you aren't headed there. Your route is back to division and spite and hate. Being a woman doesn't mean you can't be guilty of misogyny and disliking rove doesn't mean you don't practice his wiles. So stuff it yourself. A lack of reflection and an overweening sense of self importance doesn't give you the right to tell me what to do. If we're doing that, you can remove the sister from you name since you miss the concept and change what's left to simple babble on.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #82
101. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #101
141. How'd that feel, cboy4, calling someone out after not being allowed to?
Are you happy now? :eyes:
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #82
114. What a very uncivil response
to a very civil expression of an opinion.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #114
123. But the poster didn't label it as opinon.
The unsubstantiated slur was stated as fact. Either the poster knew it was a personal, but not supported statement, or the poster believed it was a fact. Since is isn't a fact, the poster would have deluded him/herself by believing it to be.

Now substantiated fact is the krispos42's reply #89.

Just what part of winning the white house for Democrats in November so repulses you?
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #123
176. Answering the first part only
- is that not what all of us write - opinions? Either our own or quoting someone else?

Do you want tablets from the mountain top?

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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #176
187. Then what was the uncivil part?
Oh, I see. The poster seemed to defend Hillary. That is all that is needed to get shot at here.

I'm highly in favor of Hillary staying in the Senate and avoiding the mess of the upcoming administration, but I could almost want her to accept the call just to see how "united" and "party supporting" all of the primary warriors here would be.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #187
214. The "uncivil part"
was this little gratuity:

"Must be nice in your delusional world..."

I think you may have muddled the thread of who is responding to whom about what. Or maybe the posters have not made it clear.

Easy to do.
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Erin Elizabeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #82
198. The mythical Terry McAuliffe generated 18 million number again?
:eyes:
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
105. Here, allow me, BULLSHIT!
BULLSHIT BULSHIT BULLSHIT!!!
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
115. And you did not read
beyond the headline.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #115
211. so you think poor little Hilly only ran because bill made her?
because that's what Taylor is saying. And it's the worst kind of patronizing nonsense.

yes, the post is bullshit. Could Hillary help if on the ticket? Possibly. Will Obama lose because she's not on it? Simplistic.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #211
215. What I am saying
is that the responder did not read the post.

The responder read the headline and reacted. The post remained unread.The responder did not actually "respond" to it except with an outburst of disagreement.
That is what I am saying. Of course -just an opinion based on timing.

The actual content of the op is not the issue because - imo- it was not actually read.

Your incivility is unnecessary.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
116. Another knee-jerk reaction
.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. And the Clinton campaign on DU goes on.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
117. Yet another person
on automatic pilot.
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ampad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
164. Yea like the damn energizer bunny
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 12:19 PM by ampad
I've been gone for about six weeks from the board only to come back to see them still at it. Most of these post reek of desperation and might I add that the fucking primaries are over. I think it would do quite a few of them some good to realize that and move on.
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Ever hear the saying, 'Brevity is the soul of wit?'
And no. No Clinton as VP.

No Drama.

Thanks anyway.

- as
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Propaganda has to be shrouded in wordiness. n/t
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Apparently so. n/t
- as
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
118. Another on auto pilot
Saves the effort of reading I suppose.
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Lint Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't know if it would float politically within the party but as
a pair no one could beat them. :dem:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. Utter bullshit.
Typical!

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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. Disagree. A Clark pick will bring most Clinton supporters into the fold.
Clark is a friend of the Clintons and I'm sure they'd be happy with him as VP.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. Obama does not NEED Clinton on his ticket to win.
He just doesn't.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
125. And you're willing to risk the election
on your gut feeling? It is more important to you to continue a Hillary vendetta than to put Obama in the white house?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #125
158. I have no Hillary vendetta.
I would prefer vp over Bayh or Kaine. But, she is not NEEDED on the ticket for a win. A huge majority of Democrats support Obama. Most of HIllary's supporters have moved on and support Obama. THose that are holding out now will likely not move to him with Hillary veep, anyway.

Obama can win without her, look at the polls, it;s not a gut feeling.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #158
188. Not as easy as we would like.
Needed? Not if things are done fairly and if Obama can keep the new turnouts he gathered in the primaries. But it won't be fair and he has begun losing them to the fear and hatred campaign of the republicans. We have differing opinions, but I believe it would be better to go with the two of them, insuring a greater number of voters. If she turns out to not be needed, what would be wrong with a real Democratic blowout. But if she is shunned and the race gets close, all of our work could be for naught. I don't see the reason to risk it.

Don't trust the polls. And they are all gut feelings.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. No comment n/t
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. Too much drama for me.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. Prediction or no, y'all are gonna have to stop beating a dead
horse.

Barack Obama is our nominee.

He picks the veep he wants.

Slim chance it's Hillary. Not impossible. But damned slim.


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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. Hi O.C., and I couldn't agree more. I thought Hillary ended her campaign?
Why is it allowed to continue here, under the guise of "concern" for the party? After her concession speech, I thought I would be open to it, but it sometimes feels as if she's being pushed upon us, by her minions here, and on TV. Unless there's some serious election theft, I think Sen. Obama will beat McSame handily.

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Your 2nd question is really the nub of the entire issue.
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. How much longer will it be tolerated? This rehashing of old primary battles
is wearing very thin, and may I add that Sen. Clinton isn't doing enough, IMHO, to dissuade her devotees, and encourage them to coalesce around the presumptive nominee.
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #46
124. Here's what gets me...
These threads are started, and I'm sure the OP understands that the primaries represent a sore spot for both Clinton and Obama supporters. So why go there? Why start these threads if the intention is not to flame bait? Why start them if these people know that many Obama supporters will shoot down the idea of Hillary as Obama's VP? To make matters worse, when we fight back against that notion, it is WE who are causing the strife! WE are inflaming wars! WE "hate" the Clintons! WE are rehashing the primaries! WE are being divisive! WE aren't supporting unity...

BULLSHIT!!!

The Art of Projection was perfected by the Right in this country. They've been successful at it for over 40 years and have won elections using this tactic. We witnessed the Clintons play this game during the primaries when they played dirty, filthy politics, then feigned outrage when the other side calls them out on it. It's projection and their supporters have undertaken this tactic as well, starting flaming wars, then turning the tables on Obama supporters when we fight back. It's classic projection, cognitive dissonance at its finest.

If Hillary wants her "18 million" voters respected and represented, she will encourage them to support the Democratic nominee without reservation. She will ask THEM to help her pay off her debt. And she would make THEM realize that four more years of George Bush in the form of John McSame is unacceptable.
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #124
174. Agreed. I wish her "18 million" supporters would retire her debt because
I'm sick of Obama and his supporters getting the blame for it. If just two million of her most ardent "supporters" would donate $10 bucks, she'd be out of debt, and we wouldn't have to hear it about it anymore.

They should stop their whining, pay off her debt, and get on with the job of electing the presumptive nominee.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. Yes -- Obama is in the catbird set and has a long, long list of
Edited on Wed Aug-13-08 11:41 PM by Old Crusoe
excellent choices ahead of him or the veep job and his Cabinet, etc.

I think your prediction is exactly right.

Good to see ya around the boards, by god. :thumbsup: :hi: :dem:
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Great to see you still around as well.....
:hi:
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. Disagree on virtually all points n/t
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #14
121. And your careful reading
led you to agree on which areas?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #121
129. Unless I misread his post it appears that he did not
agree on "virtually (any) points."

For economy of style and concision, I'm not sure how you argue with a sentence like that.

And quite a few of us agree with him.


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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #129
173. I suspect
the actual reading to be virtually non-existent. Agreeing or disagreeing is yet something else.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #173
189. No post got a more careful read than by that poster.
I might, however, suspect it of certain others.


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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #189
213. Wow - and even after a careful
speed read STILL disagreed with "virtually all". (As opposed to the conclusion.)

Wow.
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #121
157. With these:
That Clinton was running for President, not Vice President.

And that election theft remains a clear and present danger.

Beyond that, nada.

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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #157
175. That's a good start.
I think you would find other areas were you to spend the time. But why bother?
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #157
182. Gosh! You disagree with ALL of this?
<<However, Barack Obama faces a significant handicap. Karl Rove has used the most obvious, criminal election theft twice already, in 2000 and in 2004. The press let him get away with it. The DOJ, under the control of Republican administrations did nothing. Even when there was Democratic control of the Senate from 2001-2, they did nothing. The election theft in Ohio was beyond the statistical margins of error and the entire news media had to be persuaded to suppress their exit polls and 25% of American voters suspected that the election was tainted and a member of the HOuse and Senate filed a challenge and Karl Rove still got away with it . With this history, and with the billions that the oil industry stands to make from four more years of inflated oil prices and from continued war and from the billions which the banking industry stands to lose and then gain from its own criminal practices and then the bailouts which Phil Gramm and John McCain will deliver and with the profits that drug companies and the insurance industry will make by keeping health care the way it is and from the money the telecommunications industry stands to make from unlimited mergers and acquisitions there is a lot of financial incentive to support the theft of another election. That last interest---telecommunications---is the one that will enable the theft, since the news media will declare McCain the winner, fair and square, if the industry bosses think he will help their profits. Never mind that all other sectors of the economy besides those described above will be in the toilet.>>
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #182
222. As I noted, election theft is a clear and present danger.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #222
224. Sounds like you agree with almost all of the op
but disagree with the conclusion/ prediction?
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #224
226. Yes, because I don't think it follows.
The media critique is also pretty broad-brush. There's no question that instances of media bias abound, but much of it is meant to sustain a horse-race illusion, and not simply bias for McCain.

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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. :eyes:
:eyes:
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
16. For the sake of integrity, let him make the best VP choice, not the triangulated favorite.
Even if it were true that Hillary Clinton offers the best chance to win over the most voters, I'd rather he preserve his integrity and base his choice on who is truly the most fit for the position.

We will do just fine with Wes Clark, or Biden, or whomever, IMHO.

:hi:

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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. Are you for serious....
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ORDagnabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. prediction....no more bush's no more clintons.....28 years is long enough n/t
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'll take another Clinton, gladly n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
62. You won't get one.
Edited on Wed Aug-13-08 11:57 PM by Zhade
Thankfully.

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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #62
80. How do you know? That's right, you don't.
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
20. I was ok w/Clinton in the beginning....
but knowing what we know now, do you really think her OR her "supporters" will be happy with her as number 2?
I really don't.

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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I'd be happy with her as President or Vice President.
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I think that as VP,
every time Obama walked out of the Oval Office she'd be in there putting her feet up on the desk, making calls and using the official Presidential Stamp...

heehee...

funny image
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Well, if she was VP....we'd have the White House for 16 years.
I'm all for it!
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. do you think it's impossible for
another VP pick to be elected in 8 years? I think Clinton would have about the same chance as anyone else in that position. Dependent on how they handle matters and their connection with the American people....I think any VP could manage being elected POTUS.

and I'm NOT trying to be combative, but I can't understand why Hillary is seen as our saviour for the Democratic Party....why do you feel that way, is it positive memories Bill? (I love Bill as Prez. too)...I've been trying to understand this doom and gloom if she isn't chosen, and I just don't get it....I was all for Wes Clark in 04, but when he dropped out I moved on. Kerry wasn't my first choice, but I campaigned for him; and I never thought that he HAD to pick Clark for his VP.

Are you at all concerned with Hillary's negatives? or how she will energize the GOP?
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #20
127. What people "know" now is
a product of neocon propaganda and gullible supporters of other candidates.

I hope she turns down any offer to be VP. As the OP said, her best days would be in the Senate to come where she would go on to become our leading liberal. As VP she would have to make the same cowering votes and take the wishy washy stands that we see Barack having to do.

But the OP is correct. If Barack has guts and leadership, he will gladly ask Hillary to be his VP and welcome all the appearances Bill will give. All three need to sacrifice their own best interest for the country.
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Chloroplast Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #127
144. You need a reality check.
The Clintons offers nothing to a platform of change, NOTHING. I must be hard to let the past go but please try; I can't imagine such bottled up tension being good for your health. Hillary can't turn down something she can't receive but that's neither here nor there. Just get behind the Party (which is already behind Obama) or keep licking your wounds which will eventually fester. Just remember that people like YOU are the reason that the Clintons continue to fall from grace in society's eye and that 2016 isn't that far away; most people don't forget that easily.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #144
150. If you see a difference in the policies
and program and proposals of Clinton and Obama, you are the one who needs a reality check. But then, msm tells you everything you need to know.
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Chloroplast Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #150
160. CHANGE refers to sweeping Washington of the old guard...
not differing platforms but nice try. Just because you keep harping on something that will never be doesn't mean that I'm ill-informed. I have enough sense to realize that certain politicians are more poisonous than others and am willing to ignore them to ensure we win in November. I'm past the point of caring about people that want to hold their votes hostage and advocate the Party moving on without them.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #160
190. Change should mean change.
Just getting a new face isn't change. What is there about sweeping the old guard in Obama's campaign? He has supported Pelosi and company over and over. He was mentored by the oldest of the old guard. Your post seems to indicate a newcomer to the political fray. More poisonous is the meme that novices have bought from the msm along with the idea that votes are being held hostage. Advocating that the party move on without half it's members is like saying I'd rather lose than compromise my superior self. Politics is a messy and frustrating business. Just watch the pros - Obama and Clinton - work this. Watch how they handle this stuff without all the rancor and hurt feelings. It's not personal; it's business.

Why is it that so many fresh Obama supporters who trumpet change and a new way don't mind uniting and going along with bush on FISA, don't mind placating the worst of the blue-dogs, have no problem agreeing with scalia on guns and with lieberman on drilling? All of those comprises are okay in the name of getting along. But they can't bring themselves to support a candidate so like Obama that either one would be the other's duplicate? It's hard to do the reflection necessary to see that they have been played. Easier to go with the crowd.
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Chloroplast Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #190
221. Way to go with the condescending attitude.
This is my 2nd Presidential election so I guess that makes me new 'to the political fray'. Funny thing is that I double majored in Political Science and International Relations so I'm not as naive as you want to think but you get a B- for effort. Your attitude that my inexperience is clouding my view of how things work is laughable coming from someone that isn't adult enough to put their big kid pants on and get on with life.

And Obama isn't moving on without half the Party's members; most have joined the team months ago. The rest are strays that believe wishing makes dreams come true. As for supporting Clinton, I never will and that is her doing. She made many disgusting comments against her former opponent that I couldn't believe a candidate would make. Some of her remarks hit home personally: she said things that made me feel that I will never be American enough. So thank you for making it seem as if Obama supporters are far too stupid to see a 'real' politician when they see her: all I see is a hateful woman that counts her husband's years are President as her personal experience. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #150
181. yes. one big difference is
TRANSPARENCY in Gov't....
no closed door deals, that's what I'm supporting.

and I don't need a reality check
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #181
192. Good luck.
i see no more transparency and no fewer back room deals now than before. With the ink on the headlines declaring a primary victory not dry, we began the back room deals with Pelosi and company and the back pedaling on FISA and pandering that are part of all general campaigns. It may seem like change to you just because you haven't seen real politics before, that your perception of what is happening is just perception. Winning in November is not going to be a cake walk. Right now, it is very iffy. If you don't think so, you haven't been around long enough or been through this enough times.

I have as much right to say you need a reality check and you have for telling me I need one.
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #192
199. ok. you need a reality check...
Obama is not POTUS yet, but he got the "google for government bill" passed in 2006.
"The new law provides Americans with a new website, what Obama calls a "Google for government." Eventually, anyone will be able to type in a few key words and learn details of where federal tax dollars go, and perhaps whether those trillions are being spent wisely or foolishly."

it's a start to what I hope will continue. it's farther than any other senator has gone yet to get back to the "gov't for the people, by the people...."
I firmly believe he is our best chance to break away from the way DC has worked since the 70s.

BTW, I have been around long enough, and I've volunteered for several campaigns over the years.

also what the hell is "real politics" ...
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #199
202. Reality...check.
Posts about how "different" this all is.....not so much.
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #127
180. OK, I KNOW you didn't just call me gullible...
because that would be too much. See, I'm from Ohio and the weekend before our Primary (and one day after the TX debate) Hillary used the infamous lines "Shame on You, Barack Obama, Shame On YOU!"....

the Ohio GOP has already picked up that video and are using it in a McCain ad...

I don't really understand how some of you can believe ONLY Hillary can save us, ONLY Hillary is Qualified, ONLY Hillary deserves to be President...to think I was called a cult member and Kool-Aid drinker not that long ago..... pretty ironic...

"If Barack has guts and leadership" then he won't feel forced into taking a team member he may not be able to work with.....
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #180
193. You think Ohio is unique?
You think if Hillary had gotten the nomination, the republicans wouldn't be using Obama's campaign words for slogans? Then you may be the "g" word.

No one said she was the only one. We are saying that if she could be persuaded to take the post, that would give us our best shot. We are asking why shouldn't go with our best chance. The cult member and kool-aid terms came about because of people taking phases like "She is our best chance" and turning them into "She is our Only chance" just to make some rhetorical point. We have an election to win. You are supposed to want Obama to win but want him to chose a candidate who won't help as much. Pretty ironic.

You support the candidate who is a great leader and who is supposed to offer a change in that he will work with all the world leaders and reach across the aisle to work with the nastiest of republicans in the name of bipartisanship, but you don't think he can work with his legislative and political doppelganger. He's your favored candidate and the candidate that I have only now come to support but you don't think he can work with people and I do. Pretty Ironic. Don't you think?
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #193
196. read the OP again....
the title clearly states "If Clinton is the VP, Obama will win. If not, he will lose."

sounds to me like somebody said she is the only one.
"that would give us our best shot"...in YOUR opinion in my opinion it will drive up the negatives and cause Obama to appear weak.

I don't think he should be forced to pick the VP pushed upon him by overzealous followers.
and yes, I do think there is an awful lot of irony here
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #196
204. Opinions vary.
Definitions seem to vary. Overzealous followers would to be appear to be supporters who feel that their candidate "has it made" and cannot lose. Overzealous would appear to be those who ignore the wishes of 49% of the party in the primaries and sees negatives from a candidate that drew 18 millions voting Democrats. The irony I see is thinking Obama is weak for picking the candidate who had the second most votes. The irony is in touting his leadership but fearing his ability to lead.

The irony is in how the Clinton supporters were urged, not told, to unite and come together. We did, but many Obama supporters continue their msm inspired message of division and separation. Hence, we disagree.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. Sigh. Here we go again.
:banghead:
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Sad thing is, I don't think the convention will end this drama...
Meaning the drama of the Clintons, of PUMA's, of all the whiners....

But that Denver would be the end of it, but I just don't think it will all go away anytime soon.

Sigh...
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Yep.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
23. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
25. In the spirit of predictions, I predict that Pat Boone will be the GOP veep nom.
Is he even still alive? For that matter, was he ever alive?

Not that it would matter if he were running with McCain.


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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
27. The Republicans would love Hillary to be VP. Obama can say goodbye to all that Independent
support he's getting. Not to mentioning the ads the McCain would run with her saying "Shame on you Obama"

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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
28. I can tell you what would happen if Clinton were on the ticket.
Edited on Wed Aug-13-08 11:20 PM by Drunken Irishman
It would be a boon early, I'll concede that Obama will most likely see a higher rise in the polls than he would with any other choice. However, once things settled a bit, they would dramatically change.

Firstly, McCain would throw both Clinton's and Obama's attacks at each other. How can they effectively run the country when both spent months trashing each other, making the case the other wasn't ready to lead? You'd see ads thrown out there of the VP candidate slamming Obama, saying he isn't ready to lead. Then you'll see ads thrown out showing Obama railing against Clinton as being part of the problem. All they would need is one simple phrase: Neither feels the other can lead, how can you expect them to lead our nation?

It'll work.

Secondly, all those moderate and independent voters, the ones who decided the past two elections, would revolt. That means you can kiss goodbye any chance of winning Nevada, New Mexico, Iowa, Colorado, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Indiana, Alaska, North Carolina, Georgia and Virginia. Oh, but Bill Clinton did extremely well in those states, right? Well I think the Democratic Primary proved Hillary is no Bill, or she would have walked to the nomination.

That leaves one scenario, Obama-Clinton lose all those states and bank on Ohio and Florida, just like Gore and Kerry during the past two elections. Sure, she may bring Arkansas, but at what expense? Probably Minnesota and maybe even Wisconsin, two states that probably will easily go Obama, even though they have been toss-up states the past two elections. Then we get back to your key point: election theft.

What scenario affords a bigger opportunity to steal?

Obama hitting 291 in the electoral college without Florida and Ohio. Or an Obama-Clinton ticket sitting at 242 with Ohio and Florida up for grabs? That's what we would be looking at with an Obama-Clinton ticket. Sure, she very well could carry Ohio (though Bill only carried it by 6 in 1996 and 2 in 1992), but are we really ready to use the Kerry/Gore electoral map again? The same map that failed us the past two elections? Of course, even if you give that ticket Ohio, the Democrats still sit at 262, 8 electoral votes short of the 270 needed. Which means it very well could come down to Wisconsin/Minnesota and Florida.

That's too close for comfort for me.

Obama is doing just fine in Ohio and only 4 behind in Florida. I doubt Clinton would be the difference maker in Florida, but she could turn off a ton of moderate voters in the south and west who want to back Obama over McCain, but won't if he picks Clinton. To me, that is a bigger loss than where he currently stands.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Good points O'bamacon nt
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
70. the only states you mention that we have a real chance in
are Iowa, NM, and maybe NV and CO. All the rest are some kind of crazy. Alaska? Do you really expect to be taken seriously? Bush won Alaska by, what? 40 points? And we'll lose Wisconsin and Minnesota if Hillary is on the ticket? What do you base that on? You think enough Obama supporters hate Hillary to the point that they'd vote against Obama? That's.... bizarre.

You are aware that John Kerry was doing about 40 electoral votes better at this juncture than Obama is doing? I wouldn't put too much faith in those Obama landslide predictions from the echo chamber.

-----

Hillary unifies the Democratic Party. Right now only 72% of Democrats are saying they will vote for Obama. That's the main area where Hillary helps - and Bill, too - outside of Clinton hateland (DU) Bill Clinton is still one of the most popular Democrats we have.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #70
85. What do I base it on?
Obama is down 4 in North Carolina, up 1 in Virginia, leading in Colorado and New Mexico and you're trying to tell me he only has a shot out of those 3 states? Bull.

And with Clinton on the ticket, I very much see Wisconsin, which has been a swing state the past two elections, trending more red. Minnesota, too, especially if McCain picks Pawlenty.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #85
96. DI, what is the "echo chamber" sound like?
I thought we were both suppose to know since we're part of the "cult".
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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #85
177. As someone from North Carolina... Hillary is very popular here. She would help him.
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tulip Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
31. I like Clinton but her presence on the ticket..........
or not on the ticket will not cause a loss.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
35. A prediction. When Hillary makes it very clear that she is 100% for Obama this will be resolved nt
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. You aren't paying attention. She's ALREADY 100% behind Obama.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. Fair enough, she is a major participant at the convention n/t
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. That she is. And she earned it, and deserves it n/t
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
36. Sorry but the Hill folk will not back Obama even if she is on the ticket.
I just don't see those folks being receptive to anything but the hijacking of the convention and walking away with the nomination. Personally, I have no interest in that. If she does garner the nomination I will know for certain that this is truly a bad dream.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
194. So many garbled thoughts.
Who do you define as Hill folk? (Such a rnp invented term)

If you mean people who supported Hillary in the primary, you owe the board an apology for being wrong. I supported Hillary in the primary, and I not only back Obama, I will vote for him. I will vote for him if Hillary is the VP, and I will vote for him is she is not. Most every DU Hillary supporter has said the same thing.

So you are just flat wrong. Why would you say such a patently wrong statement? Can you look inside and see where such a statement might come from?
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
39. Prediction: She won't be, and he will.
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
40. That's not a prediction, it's two conditional predictions.
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4themind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #40
225. And she can't prove them in sum because
If one occurs, the other can't, there's no way to do prove that both statements are/would have been correct.(short of a time machine perhaps)
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
42. I disagree.
If she's on the ticket, he will lose. Otherwise, his chances are excellent.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
44. What utter B.S.
Sorry, but I'm so freakin' sick of the arrogance and blindness of the Clinton fanatics.
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
45. She will not be VP and Obama will win.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
47. Wrong. She won't be VP and Obama will whoop McShit.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
50. Here's a prediction ...
Obama will win in a landslide in November, and Hillary will be nowhere near the ticket.

Here's a preference:

Hillary ends this election cycle by being a gracious also-ran at the Convention who goes on to a brilliant career in the Senate, instead of pretending this entire election is still about HER and her can't-get-over-it supporters.

You're call, Hill. How ya gonna play it?
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. A landslide? NanceGreggs, oh dear...so much respect for you, but you're wrong.
It'll be close. No matter who wins, and I hope it's not McCain, it'll be a close victory.

No such landslide in sight.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Meet me here on Election Night ...
... and we'll discuss it after the votes are in.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. Gladly, my friend.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. See ya then ...
:toast:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #55
209. You need to study voter suppression and election transparency more closely
A real landslide after voter suppression and other hankypanky = a close win
An actual close win after voter suppression and other hankypanky = a narrow loss
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #52
94. It will likely be an electoral college landslide
I'll guess 54% Obama 44% McCain in total votes, but probably around 325 EC votes for Obama.


The ultimate problem with Clinton on the ticket, that I see it, that it's a small minority of Hillary voters that won't vote for Obama in November. After all, DEMOCRATS voted for Hillary in the first half of this year, just like DEMOCRATS voted for Obama. So you have tens of millions of DEMOCRATS that will support the DEMOCRATIC candidate.

Okay, at the same time, there are tens of millions of disheartened, jobless, betrayed conservatives out there that will not cast a vote for McCain. Some will vote 3rd party, some will vote Obama, some will just stay home and not vote.

However, with Clinton on the ticket, for every diehard PUMA type that comes to the Obama side, you'll have two, three, four, or more conservatives suddenly galvanized to get out there with a mission: VOTE AGAINST A CLINTON!!!

It's a net loss for the Democrats. In my opinion.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #52
152. Popular vote will be within 5%
Electoral landslide.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Thanks for saying the things I can't say.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. I endorse that prediction.
Looks like a bullseye to me.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. Yeah, Hill is at a crossroad in her political career now ...
She can land on her feet, better than ever - or she can go down as the most famous sore loser in history.

I hope she chooses wisely ...
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #63
69. Agree. She's in a position where she can get attention by
jumping off a building or by building one.

I am still a bit stunned by how badly that campaign was run and how well Obama's was run.

The political scientist writers are probably completing their book drafts as we speak.




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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #50
83. a "landslide"?! Hardly... It's still already too close now...it will stay that way...
obama will be lucky if he can manage not to lose this thing...
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #50
88. Nance, you are a voice of reason on here, kudos to you. But am
pretty sure the Clintons will not get behind Obama for President! It really sucks, America needs a change from idiots running the White House. By the way, I always love your posts!
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #50
100. So, I'm going out on a limb here, waiting for the winds of war to blow me off anytime now.
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 04:06 AM by Major Hogwash
This was just in our paper on Monday - in Boise -

"Obama has raised more money here in Idaho than John McCain."

WHAT!!??!!!

IN IDAHO!!??!!

The GOP party can't even raise enough money to help out the poor assed representative that is running for re-election here!
The polls that were taken recently have given the Democrat a 50-50 chance of beating him this fall - and they haven't even held a single debate here yet!!

But, it's even worse for the GOP party hack that's running for the Senate seat that Craig is still occupied in while petting his monkey - he supported the Iraq war, or so he said, clear up until last Sunday.
Now he doesn't know if he is for the Iraq war, or for getting our troops out, or for invading Georgia!
He told a reporter here on Tuesday, "we'll have to wait and see how things are 'on the ground' later this fall."
In other words, he doesn't know where he stands . . . yet!!
With just 82 days away from the election!!!!!!

Geezus Sesame, this could wind up being a total sweep of Republicans out of Congress this year!
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
51. Hey, Kool Aid!
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. OHH YEAAHHHH!
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
56. Hillary Clinton hired Karl Rove in May...
Since you brought it up:

"Karl Rove has used the most obvious, criminal election theft twice already, in 2000 and in 2004.

So, one could claim that he has been involved in yet another "theft" this year.

My point here is that she is disqualified as VP, and the never ending calls for her involvement strikes me as shit stirring, Rove style.

She either hired him, or got his permission to use his electoral college projection maps in her letter to superdelegates, or she used them without permission.

http://www.politico.com/static/PPM104_2008-05-28_attachment_memo_for_supers_-__final.html

I am so done with the Clintons and their obvious self serving actions, and I have no pity for them or for her supporters, who need to get over it.

:patriot:
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
58. No offense, but ....
Hillary's name is very divisive. It is not her fault! But Hillary has been so pilloried by the "Right Wing Agenda" that no matter what she did she would still alienate a lot of people. She could actually walk across water, and some folks would claim that proves she is the Anti-Christ.

Of course, we also see some people claiming Obama is the Anti-Christ.

Don't get me wrong. I love Hillary. I love her policies.

But her "brand" has been damaged beyond all hope of resurrection. She was right about the "right wing conspiracy", and they won.

She is right about the RW attack machine - but they have been so effective that she has no chance of "closing the deal". She lost before she even ran. I apologize to all the Hillary supporters here - but she never had a chance. I know it's "unfair", but when was a US Election ever fair?

They may still steal it from us. They will certainly try.

Which is why we should be ever vigilant. There are too many State Laws that still favor Republican Tricks.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #58
66. "It is not her fault!" Except for, you know, all her proven lies and machinations.
NT!

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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #66
75. to be fair, most of those "proven" lies and machinations
were NOT proven and exposed to be lies themselves. But, also to be fair, there were several times in the primaries where I really felt she "crossed the line" and wasn't any better than the RW Conspiracy machine that put her in the unfortunate position she was in.

For the record, I did not support Hill primarily because I thought she got too close to the lobbyists and corporate interests that I thought we needed to expel from government influence. A secondary reason was that I felt she was "perceived" as too divisive, whether that was deserved based on her actions or not.

I will admit, however, that even though she was my last choice as a Candidate that she went to such extremes and used so many tactics that I had previously associated with Karl Rove. But, since she was my last choice, it didn't bother me that much.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
59. Here is where jackals live:
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-13-08 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
64. thank the deity of you choice that on the internet you can't hear me scream.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
67. you also predicted Hillary would win the Primaries. thanks for the prophecy, Nostradamus.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. If it was six months ago, I would have predicted she would have won.
If it was a year ago, I would have said Edwards.

My track record on primaries isn't good though for this season lol.

Last time I got it right. Kerry in 2004, baby.

:)
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
68. Are you for real? n/t
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Metric System Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
71. This thread is like setting a bait for all the "usual suspects."
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #71
97. I wonder who was baiting people
Let's have a look at the quote again:

"This thread is like setting a bait for all the "usual suspects."

At least we now know who the problem children are.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
73. May I confide in everyone here gathered in confessing that I
have an imaginary jackal who is my special friend?

It is a very old jackal, but a wise and seasoned creature. He has a secret name among the jackal kingdom of course, but he lets me call him Grover.

You might think we wouldn't be able to communicate, but we can. It's done by instinct.

I have learned many things.

I love jackals.


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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #73
203. LOL!
:rofl:



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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #203
206. You have sweet Rush LImbaugh in his essence in that image, Swamp Rat.
He never looked more himself.

Neo-Realism rocks!

GREAT image of a HORRIBLE man.
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
74. I think you've got it backwards.....
:shrug:
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
76. Again?
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 12:30 AM by CakeGrrl
OK, just a refresher, then:

McCain tries to paint Obama as inexperienced.

Hillary Clinton: “I think you'll be able to imagine many things Senator McCain will be able to say. He’s never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience. Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002.”

The MSM tries to paint Obama as foreign and exotic and out of touch with (white) Americans.

Hillary Clinton on whether she thinks Obama is a Muslim: "No. No, there is nothing to base that on. As far as I know."

Hillary Clinton on being more in-touch with a certain demographic: "I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on," she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me."

"There's a pattern emerging here," she said.


Joe Lieberman tries to slam Obama's patriotism.

Heeeeeere's Bill Clinton! "It'd be a great thing if we had an election where you had two people who love this country, who were devoted to the interest of the country and people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues instead of all this other stuff which always seems to intrude on our politics."

So the Dems want a VP "attack dog"?

Hillary Clinton: Calling McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee a good friend and a "distinguished man with a great history of service to our country," Clinton said, "Both of us will be on that stage having crossed that threshold. That is a critical criterion for the next Democratic nominee to deal with."


If Obama can't find better options for VP than Hillary Clinton, we're in trouble. I'm pretty sure he can.

ps - Obama's campaign edict? NO DRAMA. That disqualifies all things Clinton right there.
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
77. Sorry to burst your bubble. Clinton is not gonna be his VP.
What a stupid comment!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
79. What is wrong with you? Biden or Richardson am presuming.
Hilary, noooooooooooooooooooooooo!
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
81. Sorry, Senator Obama do not need the Clintons to win. He will win!
Get over it!
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
84. You need to get a life and be more progressive. You sound absolutely silly!
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #84
102. Yea, and you don't sound a bit silly.
'You need to get a life and be more progressive.'

What a scholarly analysis. :eyes:

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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #102
178. Yes lol and he has such a life he posts THREE replies in a row
...
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
86. Let's not overlook this gem
I can imagine scenarios in which people in Chicago might have reasons to need to keep the Bush administration happy, and one way to do that would be to present a Democratic nominee who comes out from the gate looking good but who makes a poor finish in the race.

You're serious, aren't you? So in one post, you imply that:

1. Obama is full of ego (cloaked in a blanket allowance that all three parties are similarly afflicted)

2. That somehow it's an asset to have Bill Clinton hovering in case he needs "help" - how patronizing

3. The only thing that can SAVE the shipwreck of an Obama campaign against the onslaught of McCain good press is - ta daaaa! - The Clintons. Never mind that Hill considers McCain a good friend and has pretty much told the world she thinks more of him than Obama

4. Per the quote above, you seem to think that Obama is some sort of ringer set up to help the Republicans by laying back and becoming incompetent for the GE. :wtf:

My thing is...you seem to have so much disdain for Obama, so why would you want Hillary to be his second in command?
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
87. Well she came into the race with all guns blaring! Too bad she said
'Shame on you Barack Obama'. You go for your girl, she is effing history!
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
90. I would love for Hillary to be his VP...
There'd be a party at my house.

Having said that, I am not convinced she's the only one who can guarantee Obama will win the WH. There are others, IMO, who would do just as well as she could.

If he doesn't pick her...I hope for Feingold. Those are my favorites.
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. No, he cannot pick here. Remember 'Shame on you Barack Obama'
And as far as she knows he is not a Muslim. Frig her and the train she rode into, do not pick her Senator Obama. You will then have two VPs! Cut them loose, they are not supporting you!
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. He can pick whoever he wants...
Two VPs? What are you talking about?
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tedoll78 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #90
99. I'd be partying along with you.
But, just like you, I don't think she's his only automatic ticket to victory.

Then again, honestly.. I don't think any of Obama's potential VP choices is an automatic ticket to 270.
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
91. Are you serious, this is Bullshit. Obama is gonna be the next...
President of the US!
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Levgreee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
98. All VP candidates for Obama have to be vetted before hand. Hillary would not look strong after that
whatsoever
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 04:54 AM
Response to Original message
103. Dream on.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
104. Nonsense. any ticket with hillary is guaranteed to be a losing ticket.
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 05:03 AM by bowens43
Hillary, after bush , is the most hated politician in the country. Independents hat eher and independents will be deciding this election.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
106. Strike that. Reverse it.
/wonka.
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
107. All "Deep State" evidence indicates Obama is already President
The "Deep State" is a reference to the intersection between unaccountable intelligence agency factions, organized crime, drug trafficking, money laundering, and ruling class oligarchic interests.

In the past few months we have seen several prominent "suicides" and "accidental deaths" of key players who would have made excellent witnesses to unresolved Cheney Administration crime spree felonies. All of the investigations are meant to be closed and "resolved" -- not a single matter is being left open.

The housekeeping on display indicates that there will be a Democrat in the White House.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #107
167. a democrat unable or unwilling to pursue bush, inc crimes. nt
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #107
179. I wonder if the Edwards affair is another example of this.
Maybe they really didn't want Edwards in the AG's office.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
108. 183 replies, so what can i say that hasn't already been said?
Which can also be said for the OP.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
109. Actually, it's like this...If Clinton is the VP, Obama will lose. If She isn't, Obama
will win, but McCain will be sworn in on January 20 because the election will be stolen again and nobody will do anything about it. That's my prediction.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
110. There are people gained and people lost with HRC
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 06:50 AM by karynnj
There are very few people who are neutral about her. The other thing is that even with HRC as the candidate WJC was not in control. I don't think he would be as the VP's spouse either. Obama is leading with no VP. He needs a VP who will do no damage - that's not HRC. It also seems clear with her speaking on Tuesday and Bill on Wednesday that she is not the VP. There is no way that they are giving the VP two big slots and the former President another big one. It would make it almost seem like a HRC convention or that Obama and HRC are running as co-Presidents, which they aren't.

I even disagree on HRC being the leader in the Senate with name recognition. She heads no committee and has not been the leader on any significant piece of legislation. Even within the committees she is not the leader or even one of the leaders. Watch any of the hearings on Armed Services or other committees she is on. In hearings, I define the leaders as the ones who bring up lines of questioning that others then expand on or the ones who are referenced by later questioners. In mark-ups, the leaders are those who propose ways to get everyone to agree on compromises or who make strong enough cases to include pieces that are not uncontroversial. Outside the Senate, it is those people who do well on the talk shows explaining their (or the Democrats positions - something HRC rarely did from 2000 - 2007, when she started her run.

I think that no one will be the next "Ted Kennedy", but I think there is a more obvious candidate for the leader of that wing of the party. One who is already the Senate leader on global warming per Senator Boxer, leads on how to fight the war on terror and Iraq policy, and who wrote the precursor bill to S-Chip with Kennedy and was an original co-sponsor of the S-CHIP bill itself. Unlike HRC, he heads the Small Business Committee, where he has written good legislation and he is the only person who is a member of both the Finance and SFRC. On many issues, like getting transparency on international banking - needed to stop the tax fraud like USB's and to follow the money on non-state terrorist, having the background from both these committees makes for someone who can lead on getting a solution. He also has been one of the best people on Sunday talks shows. He is also a man that the overwhelming majority of Democratic primary votes chose as a leader - which more than equals HRC getting the share of votes she did.

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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
111. The question I have is, can Clinton be loyal to Obama?
I really don't think she can be. This is such a high stakes political field, that I believe she will make sure she supports the people that are important to her, rather than follow Obama's mission. And why should a president compromise to keep his VP happy? It's not like BUSH-CHeney where they made that arrangement beforehand.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #111
112. Loyal, how?
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #112
126. i.e.
Not feed important information to people on the outside that can undermine Obama.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
113. She's not a change candidate.
Her terrific popularity could be a boon, but Clinton on the ticket would tend to undermine Obama's single-word slogan.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #113
136. Yeah, she would be exactly like all the other women VPs.
:eyes:
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #136
143. Well, exactly like most other senators...
...all too willing to compromise on critical matters such as war.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #143
170. More like, "ALL other senators"
See, the thing is that the "change candidate/new politics" schtick is very old politics, going back to Jefferson's campaign in 1796.

Now, Barack does it very well and very ruthlessly and I kind of admire how well he does it, but it's still just schtick. Policy-wise, Barack and Hillary are alike as two peas in a pod, and all the hard leftists here knew it and referred to them as "Hillbama" before this place went totally apeshit. They are both corporate centrists who represent George Carlin's proverbial big club, you know, the one you and me ain't in.

But still, it's better than rewarding the party that foisted Bush on us.

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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
119. NONSENSE
Are you talking about the Hillary Clinton who said John McCain was qualified to be Commander-in-Chief, and Obama wasn't? The Hillary Clinton who insinuated, when asked whether she thought Obama was a Christian, that he might not be? The Hillary Clinton whose polling negatives have a FLOOR of 45%, and no ceiling? The Hillary Clinton over TWO-THIRDS of respondents, when polled, say they find untrustworthy and a liar? On what fucking planet is this person a good choice for Vice-President? Are you high? Or just stupid?
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
122. So, Great Predictor, what are tomorrow's Big Game numbers?
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
130. K&R. Very good explanation of things
too many here don't want to hear.

Like the OP, I would rather have Hillary in the Senate. Just as the neocons and the media have convinced half the Democrats that she is a witch in two years, she could, in the same amount of time, become the nation's leading liberal lioness. I would love to see her free of the fetters that running for national office puts on candidates.

But I believe we don't have the "slam dunk" that too many neophyte fans here think. This is going to be close and we don't have the luxury of stamping our tiny feet and pouting over primary wars. I believe that Hillary will swallow the bitter pill for the good of the country if called on.

When Bill ran, he picked a better known senator with a high profile to be his running mate. He wasn't afraid of being upstaged. He then gave Gore more power and responsibility than a VP had ever had. The Gore went timid in his selection, picking Lieberman to give him cover from the rw press and Bill's sins. We see how that worked. Then Kerry picked Edwards. I was an Edwards supporter in the primary before switching to Hillary, but hindsight has shown the need to have a candidate completely vetted. No one has been more vetted than Hillary. Ken Starr spent hundreds of millions of your tax dollars to vet her.

Best scenario. The one that would also win. Obama announces that he discussed the VP position with Hillary and she decided to stay in the Senate and do the heavy lifting there. God knows we need someone as a real Senate Marjority leader. Then he says that he is taking Bill and Hillary's advice and asking Wes Clark to help him in the position of VP. Then he has four popular, base-supported liberals campaigning for him.

Primary warriors who want to keep fighting that contest are only aiding the rnp. Why now be smart for just one election by actually uniting the two biggest factions of our party and winning. Now that would be different.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. Gawd. The primary is over. Deal with it. nt
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #131
133. Sore losers unable to deal with defeat.
How long would a thread stating that Hillary will cause Obama to lose last?
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #133
148. Sore winners
who cannot give up reliving their "glory" days of Hillary bashing. I've moved on. I'm voting for Obama. If Hillary were the candidat, would you be able to "deal with defeat". You run the risk of having to deal with it anyway if you don't learn to do what Obama says and unite. I followed my primary candidate's advice to get with the party and stop bashing fellow Democrats. Why can't his primary supporters listen to his words about uniting. Just like the thirty year olds at rural football games who keep hanging around the sidelines every Friday night, trying to capture just a little of the "glory days".

The primary is over. The OP is talking about how to win the general. Is that not a concern of yours?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #148
149. There is no such thing. Obama won. Period. "The OP is talking about how to win the general."
No the OP is talking nonsense. Obama doesn't need Hillary to win.

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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #149
191. That is your opinion.
It is my opinion that you are likely wrong. i don't see any reason to take the chance.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #133
220. People post nonsense like that all the time
It's called opinion although it is often misguided venom disguised as opinion. In my opinion,of course

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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
132. More presumptuous rantings. You're good at making up your own facts, that's about it.
"Everyone knows that if Bill Clinton could run again, he would win by a landslide."

Seriously, give it the fuck up already.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #132
163. Ummm if he could again, he WOULD win by a landslide.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #163
165. Right. You keep on believing that.
He has lost the respect of enough Americans to make his chances pretty damn slim.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. He lost the respect of people on DU and blogs.
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 12:29 PM by Kerry2008
You guys don't count.

(Most of those who claim to have lost respect for him, never had much in the first place)

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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
134. Don't be absurd. Obama is doing better in polls and states than Kerry, Gore and even Clinton did
at this time. Stop being so negative.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #134
154. no, he isn't
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
135. I disagree. nt
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Alter Ego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
137. That sound you hear is me smashing my head against the wall.
For every one Clinton supporter he MIGHT get back, he scares off ten independent and moderate Republican voters.

SHE'S TOO POLARIZING. THE RIGHT HATES HER MORE THAN HARRY POTTER.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #137
146. Oh, noes! More than Harry?
:rofl:
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Jester Messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
138. Not this again...
This is like a time-capsule from the bad old days. Make it stop!
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bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
139. I've always loved Hillary and would have been happy to see her
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 08:38 AM by bushisanidiot
president or vice president. But, whether or not she is chosen as vp, we are all still democrats. I am very suspiscious of those who are pushing in-fighting in our party over Hillary. I think many of them screaming the loudest are not actually democrats.. not saying "all". Ass-hat Limbaugh was able to mobilize repukes to vote for Hillary and I have no doubt that many of those "new democrats" are working their hardest to ensure that there is much drama at our convention.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
140. ...

of
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #140
184. Why is it laughing? That's really disturbing.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #184
217. yes, a laughing crock of shit is quite bizarre isn't it...
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bigdarryl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
142. VP candidates don't help the party's nominee
and this isn't about Obama its about the republicans in power. They can keep spinning all they want to try and make this election about Obama its not going to work.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
145. The best way to mobilize the yawning Right is to have two Clintons to run against
That was their original wish. Let's not give them what they want.

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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #145
161. I've seen no evidence that the GOP wanted to run against the Clintons.
And second of all, I don't think the GOP wanted to run against Clinton or Obama.

This is a tough year for them. The fact that the Democrats had a heated primary with the first major women candidate vs. the first major black candidate took all the attention out of the room.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
147. I believe that Obama/Clinton is unbeatable. It is the smart choice.
I personally think that Hillary is more powerful staying in the Senate, but I want to win.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #147
162. Obama/Clinton is strong, yes.
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chascarrillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #162
210. Wrong. Immaterial in any case. She's not the VP candidate.
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
151. I agree we need a unity ticket to win, though not necessarily for the reasons you give.
I believe that if anything Obama has had as favorable media coverage as McCain.

But the Democratic Party came out of the primaries divided between two srong candidates who got approximately as many votes. It still is not united.

The major polls -- Gallup, Rasmussen, and PPP -- are showing Obama getting less support from Democrats than McCain gets from Republicans, which largely wipes out the numerical advantage Democrats have over Republicans.

The solution to that is a unity ticket. Polls have shown that many of the Democrats who say they will vote for McCain are Clinton supporters.

Very pissed off Clinton supporters who feel that she, and they, were treated unfairly by the party and the Obama campaign, as well as the media.

Some of her supporters are willing to vote for Obama anyway, but polls are showing that not all of them are, and Obama ignores the vast support she had and still has at risk of losing the GE.

She needs to be on the ticket.

No other possible VP choice can unite the party.

And I don't want to hear any crap about how this will mean more independent and Republican votes for McCain, because the polls are already showing McCain getting most Republican votes and more independents than Obama is getting. Which is why the polls are so close -- Obama is running behind a generic Democrat versus a generic Republican. Voters clearly prefer a Democrat, but apparently they aren't so sure Obama is the right Democrat. In a situation like that, we need an alliance of the two strongest Democratic candidates.

There's no telling how the media will respond to a unity ticket. I believe it will guarantee amazing coverage during and after the convention, and a huge bounce in the polls -- one we're not likely to see if the VP pick is anyone but Clinton.

Because if the VP pick is anyone but Clinton, the media coverage of the convention will not show a united party. A party excited about the VP as well as the presidential nominee.

If we don't have that united party excited about a unity ticket, we have little chance of winning in November.

And if the Obama campaign is paying ANY attention to the polls, they know this.

If they choose to ignore it anyway, it will be a disastrous mistake that will hurt the entire party.
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elkston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #151
159. I think the benefits may outweigh the negatives.
But I want you, highplainsdem, to admit that Clinton crossed the line when she trumpeted McCain's "experience" at the expense of Obama. And she did it multiple times.

I want to know that you realize she made these mistakes, and it may come back to haunt us.

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Liberal Gramma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
153. If the R's are going to steal the election, they have a ready-made soundbite either way
If the VP's not Clinton, they'll say the Clinton voters went with McLame. If the VP IS Clinton, they'll say it's because having her on the ticket energized the anti-Clinton vote. Heads, they win. Tails, we lose.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
156. You've got that backwards, AGAIN.
Clinton turns off independents and moderates, and motivates Republicans to turn out to vote who otherwise couldn't bring themselves to pull the lever for McCain. Hillary Clinton is pretty much our ONLY CHANCE OF LOSING THIS ELECTION. Yet some people pretend like that's not true, or that the polls have consistently showed Obama with a large edge over McCain even before the VP picks, even before the convention, even before the debates. The only thing we need from Hillary is for her to quit trying to destroy the party.

By the way, what the fuck are you doing around here? I thought the mods canned your ass after you wrote those offensive stickies.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
168. I used to be against it, but if it means Democrats in the WH, then do it. nt
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
169. du's premier clinton shill and shitstirrer rides again.
shameful.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #169
212. What is even more shameful is him and his buddies
claim to do in in the name of "unity". It's about pushing the idea of the losing candidate having an automatic spot on the ticket despite her nasty tactics. There is simply no precedent in history that says Obama has to pick Clinton. People would rather create this mythical precedent that she has it owed to her (as well as her supporters who are threatening to vote for McCain).

It's time to stop the bullshit blackmail crap.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #212
216. clinton supporters have very right to make the argument...
...that she would be a could vp choice. it's the way they do it that bugs me. McCamy Taylor is so fucking predictable I want to vomit. she is using excellent writing skills as subterfuge to pretend not to be "preferring" clinton vp slot. taken in context with her other writings this season this position is utterly disingenuous--to the point that i want to hurl. that people don't see her as a clinton shill makes me want to cry.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
171. Since only one of these could become reality, there is no way to prove the other.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
172. That is such bullshit. Go peddle it somewhere else.
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Top Cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
183. Bullshit
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Snarkoleptic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
195. The Clinton era is over...get the net.
Find reality before reality finds you.
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Erin Elizabeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
197. Let me get this straight:
the right is going to cheat in order to win and the only people who can stop that from happening are the Clintons, ergo she MUST be his VP pick.

And the Clintons can stop the cheating from happening because people love BILL so much.

And if Bill were to be able to run again, he'd win in a landslide.

I've had some great drugs back in the day, but nothing compared to what you must be taking. What you are saying completely ignores the realities of the position of Vice President and what it means. It assumes SO much about the American people that simply isn't true (fewer people are in love with the Clintons now than were even two years ago) and it completely and utterly ignores the fact that putting Clinton on the ticket would be the same as handing the win to the Republicans, since it would totally fire up Republican voters, who would love nothing more than to hand Bill and Hillary a defeat. As of right now, Republicans are pretty apathetic on the whole. They're not crazy about McCain. Some even like Obama (secretly or out in the open). They've got no big motivation to rally. But put Clinton on the ticket and you'd change all that in a heartbeat.

You are delusional, I'm sorry to say it. The magical power of the Clenis is not going to stop any voting shenanigans, and Clinton is ballot poison.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
200. I totally disagree with you. The Clintons have harmed Dean and the party
and my state with their divisive tactics. We are very divided in FL.

I had a post locked today that was no more divisive than this one. It is very upsetting.

The Clintons have allowed their supporters to run ads saying Dean ran a bad primary. Bill Clinton himself used the words that Dean was forcing delegates to vote for Obama.

It's all here. This one ain't locked yet.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2475

I will not forgive the Clintons for what they have done to my state and to Dean as Chairman. He does NOT deserve it.

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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
201. That's why I always come back to her. Hillary is the missing statistic that takes Obama over 50 % >
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 10:34 PM by barack the house
There is no other candidate that changes the statistics.
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
205. Like the song says, "It ain't necessarily so."
There are arguments (many of them regional) for and against.
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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
207. "The American people love Bill Clinton." Uh, not so much anymore.
There is a wide section of middle America that has seen him turn cantankerous and vicious during this campaign. And a whole nother group who is just tired of the drama.
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Matteon Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
208. I disagree
Bill Clinton can campaign for Obama either way. Hillary Clinton is too far removed from Obama's persona and platform because she represents the old, and he represents the new. It would be a mistake to put her on the ticket.
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sourmilk Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
218. If Obama does not pick Clinton as VP and loses...
I think that there will be a lasting division in the Democratic Party. Conversely, if Obama picks her and loses, I see the same thing.

I have ALWAYS disliked Clinton as a candidate for higher office (though I believe she has been a pretty good Senator for NY), but I think that his hands may be tied on this one. I believe that Obama must pick Clinton, whether he likes it, or not, both to improve his chances and solidify the Democratic Party.

On the bright side, if he DOES pick Hillary for VP, I cannot see any way he loses the Presidency. No way at all.

I've been wrong before, however...
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4themind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
219. Well a critical issue for me
Edited on Fri Aug-15-08 10:26 AM by 4themind
is that for the purposes of a 'democratic' election like this one where presumably our actions/dedications have the possibility of influencing others, I'm less concerned about predictions, than the way in which we let them guide our actions (in donating,volunteering etc.) Do we accept our predictions as inevitable, or do we fight against them with the same vigor regardless to pursue whatever it is that we value because we want it badly enough? I can't control how other people react (if she is or is not V.P.) the only thing I can control is how hard I work , and that's all I can do regardless of what my prediction/prior thinking would be. All I know is that my goal is to contine or increase the levels of donations/time/and effort to bring about the change that I desire, and will oppose those who try to hinder that. The honest question that I think everyone here should ask themselves is how would they PERSONALLy react and act if the conditional prediction goes one way versus another.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
223. Can I have a pony?
Considering you seem to have a "dreams to reality" machine.

Thanks! :hi:
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