Unless your favorite candidate's name is Dennis Kucinich...

[mtnsnake]

you shouldn't be singling out any other candidate for their hawkish position on Iraq, while making like your candidate is some kind of a dove.

Gravel excluded, the rest of them either supported the idea of the war at its inception...or they voted for it...or they co-sponsored it...or they continue to vote yes to fund the war.

The only candidate who has been spotless throughout, concerning Iraq, is Dennis Kucinich.

[Clintonista2]

1. Thanks for the reality check. I wonder what the "doves of peace" Obama supporters will say to this?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. His opposition to the Iraq war...

Is one of many reasons I will vote for him in the primary...

I will send my message to the Democratic Party with my vote.

[TwilightZone]

3. Edwards seems to get a pass because he's changed his position.

Kind of curious, considering that he co-wrote the IWR. I guess expressing regret some time later is an acceptable atonement in many eyes.

[seriousstan]

6. He is a trial lawyer. He has no position but the current one.

Old habits are hard to break.

[TwilightZone]

8. Interesting observation.

And a good point.

[Bluebear]

24. Without trial lawyers plenty of ordinary people would be powerless against corporate malfeasance.

So please, enough with the throwaway remarks about "trial lawyers" that sound out of a GOP playbook.

[madmunchie]

70. WOO HOO that landed firmly and squarely!

[mtnsnake]

7. Changing his position didn't make the war go away. The original sin was co-sponsoring it. nt

[TwilightZone]

12. That's essentially how I see it.

The difference between Hillary and Edwards on the IWR is basically that one "apologized" and one didn't. I'm not sure why the apology means so much to some people - it certainly hasn't affected the outcome, at least thus far.

[seriousstan]

14. Agreed. The apology of a politician is meaningless..by definition.

THEY ARE POLITICIANS!!!!!!!

[Whisp]

23. sounds like a 'forgive me' that republican leaned turn toward.

when they are caught with nasties.
jasus, forgive me! for i have sinned! and the supporters rally around, all forgivin' and shit.

I cannot buy that one.

[Kucinich4America]

4. My favorite candidate IS Dennis Kucinich.

And anyone who voted for, or votes to continue funding, the war in Iraq can suck my ass. And those who still consider Iran a threat even after the latest reality check can suck it twice as hard. :)

[eyesroll]

5. What was Richardson's take on the war when it started?

He obviously is not voting for it, sponsoring it, or funding it now, being a governor and all.

[mtnsnake]

9. He initially supported the idea of the invasion, but he's probably the next cleanest of the bunch.

[Ravy]

16. I looked for a link to that effect to no avail. Do you have one? nt

[mtnsnake]

18. Yeah, here are some I just found

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Richardson

http://terrorism.about.com/od/issuestrends/a/BillRichardson.htm

http://lighthousepatriotjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/10/richardson-bill-election-dossier/

[Ravy]

20. Thanks!

:toast:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

10. Very, very true.

[Cameron27]

11. Absolutely

K&R

[johncoby2]

13. so what? He is not getting the nomination.

[sakabatou]

17. Are you a soothsayer now?

[BigDDem]

38. I'm a part time soothsayer

Are you sitting down? I have bad news for you...
he's not getting the nomination.

[sakabatou]

49. We can still hope

Besides no one is 100% correct, right? That means you, Big. You might be right... but you can be wrong as well.

[BigDDem]

53. "Besides no one is 100% correct, right?"

You are correct friend.
However on this one, I am/will be 100% correct.

Just for the record, do you think he's going to get the nomination?

[sakabatou]

54. Yes, I do think he's going to get the nom

^_^

Call me crazy, I don't give a damn.

[BigDDem]

57. Great! Maybe you'll be the 1st DK support

to answer the question that I have asked over and over again...

What primaries do you think he is going to win?

[sakabatou]

58. Frankly, I don't know

And I don't care either. All I know for sure, is that he's going to get my vote.

[BigDDem]

62. Dont know and dont care...sounds about right

Good luck with that!

[kenfrequed]

64. I just love it

When supposed democrats refuse to support the candidate that cleaves closest to democratic values based upon the idea that he cannot win democratic primaries.

And why do we believe this?

Because the (mostly conservative, and universally pro-corporate)commentators on television tell us who is important and repeat their names often enough that when these same media companies hold their polls most people can barely be bothered to recall anything after Hillary, Obama, and then maybe Edwards.

This is not sanity.

[johncoby2]

74. We can also hope that it snows in southern Brazil!

But it aint going happen, and we are wasting valuable time thinking about it.

Or arguing about it........

[flvegan]

25. So what?

How far have we fallen...

[Selatius]

30. Still doesn't change the fact that he was right the whole time regardless of who wins.

If you can't deal with the facts, not my problem.

[Mojambo]

15. Yep. They all got dirty on Iraq. Which ones are ready to jump into the mud again on Iran?

Not my candidate.

[slipslidingaway]

26. January 2007 "Iran threatens the security of Israel and the entire

world...

Would you be prepared, if diplomacy failed, to take further action against Iran? I think there is cynicism about the ability of diplomacy to work in this situation. Secondly, you as grassroots person, who has an understanding of the American people, is there understanding of this threat across US?


...I would not want to say in advance what we would do, and what I would do as president, but there are other steps that need to be taken. Fore example, we need to support direct engagement with Iranians, we need to be tough. But I think it is a mistake strategically to avoid engagement with Iran.

As to the American people, this is a difficult question. The vast majority of people are concerned about what is going on in Iraq. This will make the American people reticent toward going for Iran. But I think the American people are smart if they are told the truth, and if they trust their president. So Americans can be educated to come along with what needs to be done with Iran."

http://www.herzliyaconference.org/Eng/_Articles/Article.asp?ArticleID=1728&CategoryID=223


I've read the follow-up interviews where he tempered his statements, but we know that there was information available that questioned the information on Iran's nuclear program before this speech.

After the Iraq mistake everyone should have been questioning the new beat to war with Iran :(


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/13/AR2006091302052.html

[Kucinich4America]

73. oh really?

We don't know how John would have voted on the Kyl-LIEberman horseshit. But we definitely DO know that he drank a healthy dose of the "Iran is a threat" Kool-Aid.

In his speech, Edwards criticized the United States' previous indifference to the Iranian issue, saying they have not done enough to deal with the threat.

Hinting to possible military action, Edwards stressed that "in order to ensure Iran never gets nuclear weapons, all options must remain on table."

http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/world/?content_id=5400

[slipslidingaway]

19. And Dennis did not buy into the Iran talk as well, which is why

he included the "Iran plans" in his Articles of Impeachment against Cheney and has spoken of the lack of evidence of their nuclear program.

[Mira]

21. Absent Gore he IS my only favorite

I never get tired of hearing him say: I was the only one.... because it can't be disputed by the others and there may be people listening who did not know that.
Why do we think he can't win? It makes no sense to me.

[Tellurian]

22. Dennis was awesome on NPR..

I'm not sure, but did DK ask HRC to be on the ticket with him?

Or perhaps, I misheard what he said.

[slipslidingaway]

27. After Clinton said that it takes a Clinton to clean up the financial

mess of a Bush, he said she might be good addition to the ticket or administration :)

[Tellurian]

32. Yes, I was suprised when he made the comment

DK has perfect timing for slipping in zingers. He makes his point without getting messy.

[slipslidingaway]

33. Yes he does, loved him asking himself a question the other day

to try and capture some time. He's very clever.

Here's the video in case you missed it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=73412&mesg_id=73412

[kenfrequed]

65. Oh friggin SPARE me!!

This is a tactical rumor.

I have seen so many primaries and caucuses where the front runner is trying to grab the progressive vote and circulate a rumor suggesting the progressive-populist candidate is being considered as VP material.

It is almost universally crap.

[JeffR]

28. One reason among many why he is my candidate n/t

[Lord Helmet]

29. I'd vote for him if I thought he could win.

I think it will be between Hilary and Obama. That's a no-brainer.

Just say no to the goddess of war.

[eridani]

34. Why not vote for him and hope for a brokered convention?

That's the ticket for us issues junkies, no?

[asdjrocky]

31. Ya ol' Snake,

We agree again. Here's my take, and I know I'll be corrected if I am wrong, the House, as history has taught us, is a place of rebels, as it was designed to be. The Senate, is a place of slow debate, and heart breaking compromise, as it was designed to be.

We expect people to vote their conscience more in the House, that's why most of them have been such a disappointment of late.

And I've always like DK, a lot.

Just my opinion.

[LWolf]

35. You are correct.

Happily, my candidate IS Dennis Kucinich, and his record on Iraq is one of the many reasons.

[Perry Logan]

36. Read my lips: THEY WERE LIED TO.

Attacking Democrats for their vote on Iraq enables the Bush Admin to get double mileage from their original lie. This is extremely bad strategy.

[hootinholler]

37. Bullshit.

If anything Dennis had less information than the others. He figured it out. Millions of citizens figured it out. Congress even required that the UN get involved and when * ignored that part of the resolution, they did nothing to hold him accountable.

-Hoot

[zanne]

40. Double amen! nt

[slipslidingaway]

42. It's such an easy excuse...it's their fault. n/t

[Steely_Dan]

41. EXACTLY! n/t

[hootinholler]

44. See #37 n/t

[Kucinich4America]

60. If they were dumb enough to trust someone named BUSH

Then they don't deserve to be in the Senate in the first fucking place. And especially Hillary, who used to speak openly of a "vast right wing conspiracy".

(Before she became a card carrying member of it, that is.)

[crawfish]

61. Give me a break.

If they didn't vote against the war, it was for one of two reasons:

1) They, or the lobby they answer to, are warhawks.
2) They didn't have the guts.

Either way, I have no respect for them.

[madmunchie]

71. Guess what PLENTY OF DEMOCRATS....INCLUDING ME........KNEW BETTER.

It wasn't and isn't rocket science. Don't even try to defend that ridiculous vote.

[zanne]

39. I really like Dennis Kucinich, but his staffers, not so much.....

I've received three phone calls in the past two weeks, trying to get me to swtich from Obama to Kucinich. I tell every one of them at the outset that I'm a volunteer for Senator Obama. They've been getting more argumentative as time goes on. The last caller actually said to me "So, let me get this straight...you'd rather have a winner than a candidate you believe in". What an SOB! As Obama workers, we're not allowed to insult any other candidates or their supporters when we're on the phone with them. We're not even allowed to insult other candidates when we're talking to each other in the HQ! I politely told him "good luck" and goodbye. (I can be as partisan and nasty as I want on DU because it's anonymous, thank God).

[hayu_lol]

43. Dennis, in order to gain attention...

filed his 'impeachment' resolution against Cheney some months ago. He has managed to convince about 20 other Reps to support the bill. That is 20 out of 535. One could say that Dennis does not get the job done.

And he has not. Do we have voting problems? You bet we do. One of the culprits is Diebold Corp., an Ohio Corportaion in Dennis's district. Has Dennis helped or even showed interest in solving his state's voting situation? Nope. Another Dennis failure to see reality.

All his 'correct' stands on issues are just that stands of one person. He cannot, without the support of the Congress, get any of those items to mature and become the law.

His current and perpetual stand has gotten him no further than he managed to attain the last time he ran.

Dennis, a nice guy but inefectual leader.

Dennis is not a presidential candidate. He is just a guy who has managed to inflict a cult upon us.

[hootinholler]

45. Hmmmm.

On impeachment, it was originally filed long ago, shortly after the current session started. It was refiled as a privledged resolution because it was dying in committee.

On the election/Diebold, Kucinich is not on any committee that has authority over elections, all he could do was work behind the scenes. He supported the rejection of Ohio's electoral votes during the challenge.

FDR couldn't move on the New Deal with the congress he had at the start of his Presidency. He went to the people and asked for congress that would support him. Once he had that he could move.

From the tenor of you comments, though, I doubt I'll change your mind, but, please do think about the reality of the context.

-Hoot

[mtnsnake]

46. I can't believe you would condemn someone for filing an impeachment resolution against Dick Cheney

and then on top of that belittle him because only 20 other people had the guts to stand with him. Then you go on to say "All his 'correct' stands on issues are just that stands of one person".

WTF?? It seems to me that you should be wondering more about the silent majority who individually are more concerned about their own political futures than about doing what's right for our country.

[Occam Bandage]

50. What DK does isn't impressive. He panders to an audience,

and makes virtually no effort to actually get anything done. One could replace him with virtually any DUer and have the exact same results: the occasional bush-bashing speech, the occasional no-prayer-to-pass hunk of red meat thrown at the netroots, protest "no" votes cast at any hint of compromise, and little else.

Now, don't think I'm bashing the idea of pandering. Our democracy is founded on the idea that candidates should try to please voters; in a perfect democracy, every official does all the right things for all the wrong reasons. On the other hand, acting like DK is somehow special or noteworthy or honorable because he's found success by pandering to your niche...well, I think that's misguided.

[riqster]

51. So, his Congressional district is populated by idiots?

Gee whillikers,they keep re-electing him...

Or maybe they know better. Think about it and research the man in more depth.

[Occam Bandage]

52. DK is in a solid Democratic district.

Removing an incumbent Representative from a solid district is nigh-impossible.

Moreover, my claim is that he's a pandering politician like any other. Pointing to the fact that he wins re-elections in a blue district does not exactly challenge that.

[riqster]

55. Read up on the man, as I said before

He has frequently taken heat for principled stands. Muny Light is a classic example. He got run out of town on a rail, and was later proven to be right. In fact, his refusal to take the easy way out there was a big part of Cleveland's survival later on.


Panderers are not usually much on principal.

[hootinholler]

59. Yeah, he can't get things done like smokey Joe can!

Why he fought those provisions to the bankruptcy bill that would have made it sane.

With the 'leadership' in the house, hell even Conyers is handcuffed! Piss off on your allegations of pandering, prove them!

Oh, welcome to DU.

-Hoot

[Occam Bandage]

67. Biden's 'yes' vote on the bankruptcy bill is awful, yes.

I don't like his IWR vote, either, of course. I'm not sure how that negates anything I've said.

[Truth2Tell]

69. no effort to actually get anything done ??

He's sponsored more legislation that's ultimately passed than Pelosi has in his time in Congress.

It's not his fault so many of his fellow legislators are bought and paid for.

[Desertrose]

48. At least Dennis is doing something.....

he has the guts to start this whole impeachment process.

He is supposed to convince the entire 535 House of Reps to do something that, no question, needs to be done and this makes Dennis ineffectual??

Wowie wow wow.


Inflict a "cult"? And this has affected you exactly how??
Puhleese.

[riqster]

47. Nary a vote has been cast

...everyone in the field is electable. And that includes Kooch.

Screw the Punditocracy that is trying to pre-select the winner.



december152007.com

[Forkboy]

56. That's a big 10-4 good buddy!

:)

[themaguffin]

63. That's fine, but unless your candidate is Biden, your candidate doesn't have a solution

[Beaverhausen]

66. Bush would have gone to war if all those running now had voted NO

I'm sick of this being an issue. Iraq is a very important issue, but there are many others.

Let people decide for themselves based on the issues that are important to them, OK?

[robbedvoter]

68. DK and Gravel - my possible choices to vote. Great point. All others better not

talk about wars...

[Silence Dogood]

72. Gravel is Uncle Festus let out of the attic

for his daily 2 hr walkabout. Then it's back upstairs for his routine 22 hrs of meditation.

[robbedvoter]

75. Gravel is the one who ended the draft and read the Pentagon papers in Senate

Whomever you support probably has nothing to brag about that comes even close - and probably some votes/sponsorships/threats of war (unless you suppost DK and this last part doesn't apply)

[ProSense]

76. Not exactly!

Kucinich Speaks Out Against House Bill That Lays The Ground Work For War Against Iran

Leads House Opposition To HR 282

US Flag and the Capitol Dome

Washington, Apr 26, 2006 -

Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich, The Ranking Member on the House Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging THreats and International Relations, gave the following speech during House debate HR 282, the Iran Freedom and Support Act:

I rise in opposition to HR 282, the Iran Freedom and Support Act, which sounds a lot like the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. Overall, this bill seriously inhibits the ability of the U.S. government to use diplomacy, the strongest and most rational tool we have to resolve the situation regarding Iran’s nuclear program. Instead, this bill sets our country on a path to war with Iran. You can be sure that the government of Iran will also view it that way.

First, the bill makes it official US policy to impose international sanctions through the UN Security Council for Iran’s “repeated breaches” of its nuclear nonproliferation obligations. This sounds eerily familiar to actions pursued in the lead up to the invasion of Iraq, and which, as we now know, were ultimately for appearance only. Similarly, advocating international sanctions against Iran through the Security Council is for appearance only. This Administration has made up its mind that it wants to attack Iran. There is evidence that the US military is already inside Iran. (Seymour Hersh piece in New Yorker, April 17th; CNN’s interview with expert Ret. Lt. Col. Sam Gardiner, April 14th). Including this section in the bill is simply an attempt by Congress to cover the President’s back in the face of the international community with respect to Iran. Hasn’t this Congress learned yet that this Administration is not to be trusted?

Second, HR 282 also promotes regime change in Iran - as opposed to behavior change - as a solution to the standoff regarding Iran’s nuclear program. By advocating regime change, we indicate that our priority is not in fact to encourage Iran to adhere to its NPT obligations, but to remove the leadership in Iran even if the leadership were to make some concessions. This communicates to the world community that to the US, Iran has passed the point of no return, which completely undermines efforts toward diplomacy and negotiations. Furthermore, while this bill makes a point of not authorizing use of force in Iran, be assured that this is a stepping-stone to authorizing the use of force, which is exactly what the Iraq Liberation Act was.

Third, HR 282 supports anti-government advocates in Iran promoting regime change. This is highly problematic. While an important amendment offered by Congressman Blumenauer was adopted into this bill during markup, to prohibit U.S. assistance to groups that are on the State Department’s list of terrorist organizations, or have been on that list for the last 4 years, there are ways around this. For example, according to a Newsweek article from February 14, 2005, the US has been recruiting individuals from the MEK, a group currently labeled as “terrorist” by the State Department, who have agreed to form a new group with the same mission of the MEK: regime change in Iran. These individuals have been conducting military activity in Iran with the United States’ support. I just want to remind everyone that the MEK was the group responsible for the U.S. Embassy takeover in Tehran in 1979. The MEK also had a camp in Iraq where Osama bin Laden’s first fighters were reportedly trained. The MEK also trained and supported Taliban fighters. Now we’re recruiting help from members of the MEK, which makes a total mockery of this so-called “War on Terror.”

Fourth, HR 282 states that it is US policy to focus attention to stopping cooperation between Iran and Russia, China, and Pakistan. Considering that Russia and China have the strongest leverage with Iran, yet are also opposed to Iran’s violations of its NPT obligations, the US should try to work with Russia and China to find a joint path of diplomacy - not isolate Russia and China. In the end, we are only isolating ourselves and setting our country on another unilateral path of war.

Our troops already overextended and in a vulnerable position next door in Iraq. Starting a war in Iran is the last thing we should be doing. I urge you to vote against this dangerous bill, which is nothing more than a stepping-stone to war.

link

emphasis added

Kucinich voted Yea: Iraq Liberation Act

By his own description, Kucinich was hawkish on Iraq at one time.