Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The Role of Voter Registration Purging/Fraud in Kerry's loss of Ohio

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:27 PM
Original message
The Role of Voter Registration Purging/Fraud in Kerry's loss of Ohio
The main reason that Al Gore lost Florida and the Presidency in 2000 was the illegal purge tens of thousands of mostly black voters from the Florida voter registration roles. "The reason" for the purge was that these voters were close computer matches to felons, who by law were not allowed to vote in Florida. Florida's Governor and the private company that he hired to conduct the purge knew that their process would disenfranchise not only real felons, but close computer matches as well. A very effective way to win an election.

I have posted threads on DU postulating that hundreds of thousands of mostly Democratic voters were illegally purged from Ohio's voter roles in 2004 and that this accounted for a net loss of over 40 thousand votes from John Kerry in Cuyahoga County alone. My rationale for those postulations was mostly the huge discrepancy between newspaper reports of new voter registration, compared to official Ohio Secretary of State figures. In the weeks prior to the election, for example, a New York Times report indicated that new voter registration in Ohio was ten times as great throughout the state in Democratic than in Republican precincts. Indeed, these reports provided reason for much optimism that the Kerry/Edwards ticket would win Ohio and the Presidency. But official figures by the time of the November election showed that Republican precincts actually exhibited greater gains in voter registration than Democratic precincts between March and November of 2004.

Subsequently, I tried to contact the NY Times and the reporters who reported the massive increases in Democratic voter registration, in order to see if I could obtain verification that illegal voter purges were indeed conducted, but they would not answer my letters.


Confirmatory evidence of illegal voter purging

Finally I found some good sources that provide a probable explanation and confirmation of my suspicions for much of the discrepancy between the newspaper reports and Kenneth Blackwell's official voter registration figures. The first source was Norman Robbins, leader of the Greater Cleveland Voter Registration Coalition. According to his figures, there were 160,894 new voter registrations received by the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections in 2004, compared to only 31,903 registrations in 2000. This information is fully consistent with the NY Times and other newspaper reports. Yet, the number of Cuyahoga County registered voters for the 2004 election was actually LESS than the number of registered voters for the 2000 election! What happened to all those voters?

That is explained by research conducted and reported by Victoria Lovegren, which is posted at Ohio Vigilance.
The most important finding documented in these reports involves the purging, apparently illegal, of 165,224 voters from Cuyahoga County alone, for no other rationale than that they hadn't voted recently. Dr. Lovegren notes in her report that this practice violates the National Voting Rights Act. This matter is still being investigated. We don't know at this time precisely when these purges occurred, though it was some time between the 2002 and 2004 November elections. Perhaps the most troublesome aspect of these reports is that the purging appears to have been done discriminately, that is, with no specific criteria for who would be purged. This could account for the great discrepancy between the newspaper reports of massive increases in new Democratic voter registration and the reality that Republican precincts actually outdid Democratic precincts in increases in registered voters during 2004 if the purging was targeted at Democratic precincts (Cuyahoga County of course is heavily Democratic). This would be consistent with numerous findings from John Conyers' House Judiciary Committee Report, Preserving Democracy: What Went Wrong in Ohio, which related numerous instances of targeting Democratic voters for disenfranchisement. Of equal concern was the fact that thousands of these voters were not notified that their registration was purged, and therefore they were not able to take steps to correct the problem until they were notified on Election Day that they weren't eligible to vote.

Dr. Lovegren's report also notes numerous other issues of serious concern, including the following:

Registration applications being rejected because they lacked a date of birth, even though the applicant was not told that this needed to be included.

Insufficient staff to deal with all the applications for voter registration, despite repeated requests for additional staff.

Requests for absentee ballots not responded to.

Hundreds of long time voters missing from the voter roles

Phone lines were jammed on Election Day, so that most inquiries about how to handle voter registration issues could not be addressed adequately.

The public was not allowed to watch the provisional ballot verification process.

Numerous voters did not receive provisional ballots as required by law.

Numerous dirty tricks aimed at disenfranchising Democratic voters.


Conclusion and continuing efforts

Dr. Lovegren's reports provide confirmatory evidence that illegal purging targeted at Democratic voters may have cost John Kerry tens of thousands of votes, or even enough to cost him the election even without the assistance of other mechanisms of election fraud. She continues to investigate this issue, recently having submitted an official request to the Cuyahoga County BOE requesting detailed information on voter registration data, including registration cancellation date and justification for the cancellation.

With all the concern about the electronic manipulation of votes on Election Day we must not lose sight of the fact that voter registration data also can be manipulated, and that this may very well have cost both Al Gore and John Kerry the Presidency. This process too is highly computerized and privatized.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for posting this. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Premeditated murder of Democracy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. You said voter registration systems are computerized & private...
I found daughter of Triad Elections Systems Visual Fox Pro queries on a VFP forum. She had asked lots of questions and DU programmers reported that she was probably working on voter registration programming for Triad rather than tabulation since Triad punch cards were tabulating using DOS.

Still some of her questions seemed odd.

Her name is Cheryl Belluci, and there is quite a lot of info on her in demopedia. She brags on a a taxidermy forum about doing something involving elections in Alaska in 1999, but then says she shouldn't talk about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thanks for the info, but I'm not quite sure what you're getting at
You say that some of her questions seemed odd. What do you mean by that, and what do you think that has to do with Triad's role in voter registration fraud?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'd have to go deep into my inbox and see what the DU programmers
pointed out as odd. At the time I was hoping it would be evidence of tabulation fraud, but it looks like the tabulation program was really old school programming language dating back to the father Tod Rapp's programming. It did run on DOS, that is why the old PC in Hocking County BoE so-called battery problem was probably the CMOS battery. Old PCs did not have autodetect HD in CMOS and HD parameters had to be manually set.

If you want to revisit what Cheryl was up to, you really need a programmer to check it out.
Cheryl on foxite.com
http://www.foxite.com/archives/search.aspx?q=Cheryl-Bel...

Demopedia:
http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/index.php/Tr... .

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. from inbox various DU programmers said...
1. http://www.foxite.com/archives/0000052074.htm

2. http://www.foxite.com/archives/0000052081.htm

3. http://www.foxite.com/archives/0000052093.htm

On February 5, 2004, she does ask how to get on an outside site. If you follow that thread you will see that her friends have a lot of questions as to why she wants to do that. She tends to be cryptic such talking about R's and D's. It is really weird and why is locating records?

http://www.foxite.com/archives/0000034923.htm

Subject: "Admin" VFP Program to run 2 other VFP Programs
>From: Cheryl Bellucci
>Category: Projects & Design Xenia, United States
>Version: Visual FoxPro 6 Date: April 28, 2004
>
>Is it possible to have a VFP program that "runs" 2 other VFP
>programs and monitors a stat log file to generate log messages
>at the same time?
>
>That is, I have 2 VFP processes that are currently running. I
>do not want to merge them into one program because the entire
>process runs faster if these two programs run concurrently. I
>would like a third program that would display the forms from
>the 2 processes along with a status window that would display
>messages from the other two programs. (That part is not a
>problem, it would just have to monitor a status table.)
>
>As an alternative, is there a way to "attach" the forms of the
>3 programs so that it looks like one program? If this can't be
>done, not a big problem... I would just like to be able to
>start up one program that administrates the other two so that
>users don't have to worry about different screens.
>
>Thanks!
>Cheryl A Bellucci
>TRIAD GOVERNMENTAL SYSTEMS, INC

What it sounds like to be is she is trying to ask if you can combine 3 programs or 2 others into 1 program. Hence making it look as though it's just one program.

Saltman: An important procedure to assure system intergrity is to isolate vote tallying and support software from infulences over which the election admin (who ever has those rights on the pc) has no control.

After all software to be used together has been certified(they require all software be checked and certifed by state law, mainly make sure it tallies "correctly") It should be maintained separatley under the control of the election admin and not used togeter with uncertified software. It is strongly recommended that certified vote-tallying software NOT be allowed to run on a multiprogrammed general purpose computer (say the dell 486) on which uncertified support software or applications are also being run.


Subject: How does LOCK() work? From: Cheryl Bellucci
Category: General Xenia, United States
Version: Visual FoxPro 6 Date: October 30, 2003

How does LOCK() work if one application uses LOCK(), but another application (using the same tables) does not use LOCK()? I've got a problem where I'm storing a number that needs to be unique in one table. Once someone needs the "next" number, it looks up the current, adds 1 to it, then replaces it. The ADD function in my software actually LOCKS() the table, gets the number, updates the table, then UNLOCKs the table.

I'm getting duplicate numbers, and we're thinking it is the DELETE function in the application. If the number to be deleted matches the current number in the master list, it will decrement that number to be picked up by the next ADD. I've not added any LOCK functions in this part.

If one part of the application uses LOCK, but the other doesn't... yet there are multiple users bombarding (adding/updating/deleting) the tables at the same time, could this be where my duplicates are coming from?

Cheryl A Bellucci
TRIAD GOVERNMENTAL SYSTEMS, INC

>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

Thanks! I agree with most of the points made in this post, though a few of them don't go far enough. If, for example, the tabulator is running MSDOS, it is almost certain that it wasn't attached to an eithernet or the internet. MSDOS TCP/IP stacks are a #%@! to get or keep working. I know of some people at Novell who did it, and there was a university that lasted less than a semester IIRC, but I've never heard of anyone who had it working in a production environment, nor anyone who got it set up with a guru to DOS box ratio less than one. To put it in further perspective: it is my understanding that Microsoft (the people who _wrote_ MSDOS) was never able to get a TCP/IP stack working under DOS.

As a consequence, I think it's unlikely that the FoxPro program for accessing the Access database was run on the machine in question, which makes me further question its significance.

The points about "un-rigging" are also sound. They also point the way to our best hope of getting to the bottom of this. If there was machine hacking, the traces of it should still be there; impounding _all_ the machines and getting someone with forensic experience (or even better, lots of someones) going over them with fine tooth combs should show us what's up. If anything is found, evidence such as the questions on web forums may well help prove _who_ did it.

But I fear there are too many posibilities for them to lead us to the what.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. WTF? DELETEs decrement what should be an identity column???
:wtf:


Dangerous programming there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Not very heartening >>>
http://www.foxite.com/archives/foxpro_26_to_vfp_learnin...

Wow! I'm just a couple of steps ahead of you! We have been talking about upgrading our FPD2.5 and FPW2.6 programs for years. Now, with the advancement of the OS and hardware, that talk is becoming hard reality.

I'll admit, I was terrified of trying to program in VFP6! Everytime I would even look at it, I would break out in a cold sweat and run away. However, I found the best thing for learning for me was just to start playing with it. I've only got one full VFP6 program "suite" (a combination of 3 programs) under my belt... but I have a lot more confidence now. I still have a way to climb on the learning curve, but the curve doesn't seem so steep now.

...


Cheryl A Bellucci
Vice President
Rapp Systems Corporation



A Vice President of a software development company "would break out in a cold sweat" when using a new version of a language?

:scared:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I don't understand much of this computer stuff
Does this sound to you like foul play, or is it simply that they're using computer programs that are beyond their understanding and therefore likely to result in random errors?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. She comes off like people I've known in the development world
They read a couple of books; fart around writing apps for a department of a company using Access or Foxpro; take a one-day class here and there; and then all of a sudden they're experts on programming and know no wrong when, in fact, they are completely incompetent and couldn't write anything approaching a stable, relatively bug-free application.

And their code will look like total shit. Horrible naming conventions, convoluted code, poor or non-existent comments in the code, etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. So, do you think that this is what is responsible for the purging of 165 K
voters in Cuyahoga County? -- apparently with the excuse being given that it was because they hadn't voted recently?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Various ways to explain that purging.
Perhaps we're seeing the 2004 version of the ChoicePoint DBT purging in Florida.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I don't believe Triad had Cuyahoga, they had a lot of counties in OH
more than half but they were the mostly non populous counties. I am pretty sure Cuyahoga was ES&S punch cards.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Right, that was for the vote counting
But I understand that Diebold was in charge of the voter registration system (DIMS)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Here is a report from Vickie Lovegren
that I just encountered after posting this thread, on the problem with the DIMS software used for voter registration in Cuyahoga County:

http://ohiovigilance.org/Counties/Cuyahoga/Analysis/Cuy... .
What do you make of this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. She is the married daughter of the owner, maybe they needed to
keep it in the family and couldn't hire an experienced programmer. Blood doesn't snitch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
6. Kick
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks. Whatever happened to journalists?
Why don't we have any crusading mainstream media journalists? Why Judy Miller types, instead? They aren't reporters - they are White House stenographers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. There are still some good ones left
Keith Oberman, for example.

But when a small number of huge, profit hungry corporations own all of the major news sources in the country, individual journalists exert their independence only at the risk of their jobs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
12. Kicked and nominated.
and bookmarked. Thanks for the info.

Gore, Kerry did win.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
15. Not sure about this but I honor your effort, it should damn well be
investigated!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Can you be more specific about that?
What did they do?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
19. Same tactice used in WA this election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Sorry, I meant post # 20 for you
Can you be more specific about the problems in Washington?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mandomom Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
22. Key word: "privatized". AKA, piratized.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Yes indeed that is a key word
If there is enough private control of the voter registration system, they may not even need control of the vote counting in order to win elections. We need to keep our eye on both.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
27. kick n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
southwood Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. Thank you
Your post is very important. I have come to the conclusion long ago that Kerry losing Ohio was probably not due to computer fraud, but for the most part to not accepting new registrations and (subsequently) rejecting provisional ballots.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Well, I think they used a lot of different methods
We can't keep letting them get away with this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
30. This may be a dupe, but what about the break-ins at the Dem Party
Headquarters? It seems to me there were a couple of those priior to the election and nobody was ever caught but they seemed to have gotten away w/ computer records. Isn't this the key to the purging of so many new (or old) Dems from the computer rolls? If they knew precisely which records to purge, it would make the effect a lot more precise than it was in FL e.g. when they merely purged the ex-felons and it's possible some of these were Repub voters, tho likely not very many percentage wise. In OH they probably already knew which records to purge, all Dems, because they had the Dem rolls from the break-in at the Dem Party Hdqtrs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-05 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. I don't think they needed that
There are many precincts in urban areas that vote heavily Democratic (10 to 1 or more). That is a matter of public record, and those are the precincts, especially in Cleveland, that appear to have been targeted by the voter registration purges.

Breaking into Dem. headquarters and getting computer records could have helped, I suppose, but they wouldn't have needed to do this to conduct some very effective targeting for their illegal purges.

But I don't know much about this break-in that you speak about. Do you have a link or more information?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
32. Extremely important work - kick to keep it alive n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jenndar Donating Member (911 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Thanks for the info.
I hope you'll continue to keep us posted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
34. That's the proper focus
Low tech purging of votes, also simply making it more difficult for Democrats to vote based on lack of machines in specific precincts, etc. I believe every bit of that stuff. The Diebolders are trying to pretend 2004 was stolen via machine but I'm convinced it was simply an expansion and perfection of the long practiced techniques that screwed us out of Florida in 2000.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Actually, I think that they used a variety of mechanisms
But it may very well be that, as you say, voter registration purging and voter suppression by witholding voting machines may have been two of the biggest methods. But keep in mind too that voter registration is becoming very high tech. Diebold was in charge of the computerization of voter registration, and there were lots of problems with it -- see post 25.

Also, there were probably lots of other ways of stealing votes, as I discuss here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
36. Just so you know....
The Cuyahoga County roles had thousands of duplicate registrations, thousands of dead folk still on the role and thousands of people who had moved and re registered in other parts of the County...

They periodically purge the rolls...

But since they had changed the precinct boundaries starting in 1999 and running through 2003, the a full purge probably wasn't conducted...

The rolls were very sloppy...

I work the data all the time cause of my former position as treasurer for the county dem's...

They needed to be cleansed...

I'm just telling you that maybe you should look into outside factors...

BTW, Kerry carried Cuyahoga County with a higher percentage than most other dem candidates for pres...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. No doubt some of the purged voters needed to be purged -- but
What do you think of Vickie Lovegren's documents which note that 165 thousand registered voters in Cuyahoga County alone were purged simply based on the fact that they hadn't voted recently: http://www.ohiovigilance.org/Analysis/CountyCuyahoga.ht...
She says that that is illegal, as it is against the National Voting Rights Act. What do you think about that?

And with regard to Kerry's high percentage in Cuyahoga County, that is precisely the point, it seems to me, why that County would be targeted for purging. Purging of registered voters wouldn't necessarily reduce Kerry's percentage in the county, but it would certainly considerably reduce his ability to make up the deficit from elsewhere in the state.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. If you do not vote in two consecutive presidential elections...
You are in danger of being purged...

Of course if you vote in other elections during that time period, you are not purged...

Now you have to remember, before someone is purged, a letter with return address requested is sent...

They are very careful about whom and when they purge...

I use to be on the Board of Elections.. Was the Democratic Board Member for two elections...

I have some strong faith in what they do down there...

You see, for every dem there is a rep.... There is an internal check and balance that keeps things from devolving into one party having the upper hand over the other...

The only way you could really track this is if a lot of people went to the polls and were not registered... If they believed they were registered, they would lodge a complaint... there are judges at each polling location, one dem and one rep, to tend to these complaint...

So I find it hard to believe that 145,000 people who were active voters, still alive or had not moved from the county were purged...

One other aside... People sign up to vote in their own handwriting... I have seen the same person, with a slightly different spelling of their first name, registered more than once at an address... All due to sloppy registration cards...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Do you think that Blackwell's office might have had the capability
to purge voters on its own discretion, without the county BOEs being aware of it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. No, the voter roles are, I am 99% certain, controlled at the
County level... they are not connected...

The SOS has an oversight function... Settles disputes and helps the boards impliment changes to election laws...

they don't actually count any votes... That is all done at the county level...

They tab as the votes are reported to the SOS from the counties....

The voter roles are kept at the county....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
riqster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. The data IS owned by the county, BUT
Since it is connected to the state database as required by HAVA, individual voter records can be modified by the stste without the county's knowledge.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Thank you riqster - would you mind commenting on the significance of
these two reports from Vicki Lovegren?

See the first report on this website, "Cancelled for not voting irregularities": http://www.ohiovigilance.org/Analysis/CountyCuyahoga.ht...

And this one, about the problems with the DIMS software system: http://ohiovigilance.org/Counties/Cuyahoga/Analysis/Cuy...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
riqster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. They all make quite a bit of sense
although I think she needs to flesh some of them out a bit for the uninitiated.

In general, she is on target IMNSHO.

It is NEVER a good idea to rush a critical system into production at the time of greatest impact. I don't care if it's an election system, banking, manufacturing or whatever. Haste makes waste. It also is a golden opportunity for fraud, since it will be almost impossible to discover what data was lost due to error and what resulted from malice.

DIMS isn't any worse than any of the other competing products. Don't ignore the ES&S offering, for instance, nor any of the others.

What constantly gets left out of these discussions is the most important bit: when a single vendor provides the technology for voting and voter registration, that vendor controls the entire election process. Diebold now owns the elections in Cuyahoga county, lock, stock, and barrel, and Mister Vu is nothing but a puppet.

Welcome to the United States of Urosevich.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. So do you have any suggestions on what we can do?
Can the information in this thread be used in any way to combat this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
riqster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Get the Word out, somehow
If there is anyway to crack the MSM shutdown on this topic, or go around it. Some sort of entry into the zeitgeist. When the People realize they've been conned, their anger can become a potent force for renewal.

"When people are asleep, we must all become alarm clocks" (J.Biafra)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
41. .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
44. All good information, but is there any info
on people who actually wanted to vote but were purged? To remove someone from the voter rolls doesn't take votes away from anyone. It only has an impact when that person wants to vote and is disenfranchised. Are there any numbers on how many people tried to vote and were no longer registered?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. It's very difficult to get that kind of information, for lots of reasons
For example, a DUer recently responded to one of my posts, saying that he went to vote on election day, but he couldn't because the records didn't show him as registered. There is probably no record that this happened except for his DU post.

Here is a site that compiled election day complaints. There were 752 complaints regarding registration problems in Cuyahoga County alone. Keep in mind that the good majority of people who had problems on election day would not send in a complaint to this system, because most people have never heard of it:
https://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EIRMapCounty&...

When the screen comes up, click on "search".

My educated guess is that tens of thousands of people were prevented from voting in Cuyahoga County on Election Day because of registration fraud.

One thing we know is that precincts characterized by lots of newly registered voters had a larger turnout than other precincts in 2004. Cuyahgoa County had a tremendous number of newly registered voters -- or at least voters who thought they were registered (see the NY Times article, noted in my OP).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
49. What loss would that be? Me thinks he won.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. So do I, and so do many others
I was using the term "loss" very loosely
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Jul 30th 2014, 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC