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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 11:57 AM
Original message
Black Christians falling for the Bush homophobia rhetoric
Last week I had a falling out with a good friend who is going to vote for Bush. Her reasoning: He wants to ban gay marriage. She is a black grandmother, christian, and totally knocked me off my feet with her reasoning.

Yesterday I went to lunch with another friend (black male christian). He is also leaning toward Bush due to his disdain of the thought of gays having the right to marry.

I asked him how does Tom and Timmy's marriage affect his quality of life. He hemmed and hawed and said it had a great impact on his quality of life.

I asked how. Does them being married prevent you from putting food on your table? Does it inhibit your ability to pay your bills? He couldn't answer me.

I was visibly disgusted at this point. I need to stop taking this too seriously.

What I can't stand is people using God as an excuse for their inabilities to deal with their own hangups. And that asshole Furious George has tapped into their fears.

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Unstuck In Time Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. How a black person in America can stand up and say "those people"...
... don't deserve the same rights as "the rest of us" because "it's God's plan"... well, it's just unbelievable.

This is the exact argument made in favor of slavery. Exact. And yet they have no qualms at all about trotting this out to use against someone else.

What a disgrace. An absolute disgrace.
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Gaffey Duck Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Black homophobes deserve what their ancestors unfairly got...
As do all homophobes.
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Unstuck In Time Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Well, I don't think a return to slavery is the answer, but...
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 03:01 PM by Unstuck In Time
... we should definitely call a bigot a bigot.

As for the argument that gay civil rights do not equate with black civil rights... that's the language of the master class, right there.

Back in the 80's, I remember seeing a tee-shirt that said "It's a black thing. You wouldn't understand."

My, how far we've come.

"It's a GLBT thing. You wouldn't understand"

Or...

"Congratulations. You're a cracker now, too."

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. "Blacks could have chosen Marx, but they chose Jesus instead"
Remember that line from Angels in America uttered by Al Pacino playing the role of a dying Roy Cohn?

We had several Black ministers campaigning against civil rights for GLBTs. Sadly they were using the same twisted logic that Colin Powell used about race being inherited while sexual orientation is a choice.

Even a religious tradition as liberal as Reconstructionist Judaism had to struggle with the "gay issue" as the following article illustrates:

"Gay Judaism" and the Struggle for Inclusion
By Joshua Lesser


On a religious level, the values-based approach of the Reconstructionist movement has given rise to an understanding that whereas the halakha has recognized homosexuality simply as a sexual act, we recognize it as a fundamental aspect of identity that deserves to be treated with the Jewish value of btzelem elohim (respect for human beings as made in Gods image). As Justice Kennedy wrote in the Lawrence case: when sexuality finds overt expression in intimate conduct with another person, the conduct can be but one element in a personal bond that is more enduring. Most Reconstructionist rabbis today perform same-sex Jewish weddings (rituals are including in our Rabbis Manual). Our movement has been in the forefront on these issues and has made great strides in eliminating religious second-class citizenship for gay and lesbian Jews.

Yet perhaps we are resting on our laurels. While we are doing many right things in our communities, the hurt that gay and lesbian Jews have endured is not righted overnight. Today, our Commission report of 1992 today sounds stilted and stale. The workshop series created to address inclusion issues in our synagogues does not reflect current definitions and new understandings of gay and lesbian (and bisexual and transgendered) identity and sexuality. The Reform movements Kulanu sourcebook, and their resource page on their rabbinic website, are superior to our materials. Our approach and practice remain the best, but this does not alleviate our responsibility to renew our materials to support Reconstructionist communities in their continued efforts towards inclusion.

Our next step, I believe, should be to create a timetable for all Reconstructionist communities to be inclusive and welcoming to gay and lesbian members and staff. One model for this would be the process that our movement created when we had a few synagogues that still prayed with a mehitza (a wall or curtain dividing men from women) or did not permit women to read from the Torah. We gave these communities generous time in which to progress towards egalitarianism, but we made it clear that gender egalitarianism was a definitive Reconstructionist value and standard of affiliation.

Similarly, we could mandate that all affiliates fully welcome gay and lesbian Jews and grant them access to the same lifecycle and membership privileges enjoyed by heterosexual Jews. We could reaffirm standards of inclusiveness and a deadline to meet those standards. At the very least, we could redefine the process and hope for and work towards a hundred percent buy-in.

http://www.jrf.org/rt/2003/gay_judaism.htm
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. It's Not a "choice"...that's pure
ignorance!
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've been very much afraid of this for a long time
Gay marriage could be the Achilles Heel that splits blacks from the Democratic party. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, in a more perfect world, but it is. It's also gonna have a big effect on our ability to attract Hispanics.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thats a two way street
What comes around goes atround.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. just did a quick google
WASHINGTON -- Blacks prefer Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry over President Bush by a nearly 4-to-1 margin, though their support for the Democrat is down slightly from the backing Al Gore received in 2000, according to a poll released Tuesday.

Bush didn't get good marks for his handling of the war in Iraq or for his overall job performance, according to the poll of black Americans from the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies. The center is a Washington-based research group that focuses on issues concerning blacks.

Bush enjoys stronger support than in 2000 from those age 50 and older and those who consider themselves "Christian conservatives."

http://news.bostonherald.com/election/view.bg?articleid...
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. It won't last
The GOP is too racist in its core ideology to allow black Christian conservatives into their fold. They'll wear the clothespin over their nose and tolerate it FOR NOW, but it won't last.

The takeover of the GOP by the Christian Right is going to split their party. The "Christian" faction may take some black conservatives with them because the remaining racists won't have them.
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shivaji Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
56. Repugs tout Condi, Powell & other black members of cabinet ad nauseum
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
49. I would think it would be WAY UP!
Since the bushco DISENFRANCHISED so many Blacks in Florida!

Something is Very Fishy here!
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. Two people in my prayer group
Seem to be leaning that way also. However, they are definitely in the minority of our minority. For every black person who votes for Bush because of gay marriage there are five new black voters who feel George Bush is the worst thing that ever happened to America.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
53. I'm doing down and dirty GOTV in the inner city in SW Ohio
I am specifically going after the secular African Americans on the street. I have stepped up my rhetoric and I am also utilizing poor man's advertising, ie. flyers om utility poles at high foot traffic intersections.

My latest creation is rude but true, and it is getting high marks for humor and rhymes.

Go to http://somnamblst.tripod.com to download high resolution TIF or PDF file to print and distribute in the inner city (not the suburbs). Utility poles, bus stops, phone booths, etc. Guerrilla marketers needed to create MAXIMUM BUZZ!



paired with:





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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'll give you a sign of hope
Alan Keyes is extremely unpopular among African Americans, way more unpopular with them compared to the population at large. And Keyes's entire appeal is on the phony culture war issues.

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
50. THat's right...alan keyes could
be a good barometer on this because ..of him being Black and so Against anything gay..why he even speaks out against mary cheney and Nothing gets said!
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delhurgo Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. I've heard bout this problem too.
Black Christians tend be be more homophobic than the rest of the population; part of it is due to them not wanting their civil rights struggle to be compared to gay civil rights. Jesse Jackson and other black Democrat leaders have been going around to churches trying to calm fears about this.

This may also have been in part the reason for Kerry mentioning Mary Cheney in the third debate. Most think it was to suppress the white Christian Conservative vote, but it may have been more directed at the Democrat party's black base.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. You should continue taking this seriously
You may have fewer freinds when it's all over, but if you'll feel better about yourself after.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. I have ZERO tolerance for the hypocrisy
They want to use religion and Jesus as an excuse, but purposefully ignores the fact that Jesus teaches tolerance and acceptance.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Good, and you should let your friends know
that Jesus didn't preach that Christians should "Do unto others unless you don't like them" and that you don't respect homophobes.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
51. Exactly...Hypocracy Abounds when
"Christians" try to use Christianity against tolerance, acceptance, and Love!
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liberal_in_GA Donating Member (439 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
9. Can you appeal to their more reasonable side
by pointing out how many African Americans the GOP purposely disenfranchised in 2000, and how they're likely trying to do so again now? I can't imagine a black person voting for Shrub for this reason alone.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here's something to help you out.
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 02:57 PM by Connie_Corleone
I think the 2 main reasons that some black christians are against gay marriage are:

1. They think homosexuality is a sin based on strict, literal interpretation of the bible by evangelists.

2. They think that homosexuality is a choice, not something you're born as, like being black. They are "offended" by gay people comparing the 1960's civil rights struggle to gay civil rights struggle because of black people going thru slavery, lynchings, jim crow laws, etc. They don't think the two struggles are comparable.

On Edit: I think the #2 reason is the biggest reason for them.

(I know this stuff because some members of my family are like this, BUT, they're still not voting for Bush. They can't stand him and gay marriage is not at the top of their list.)
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southpaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. It all comes down to the "choice" issue...
I know several black x-tians who have a problem with gay rights being compared to civil rights because they see homosexuality as a choice. I have been unable to convince any of them to see it differently because they believe that:

A. God condemns homosexuality
B. God created all people
C. God wouldn't create something he condemns

therefore homosexuality must be a choice...

A sad state of affairs, for sure. One I have been unable to argue with. A matter of faith...

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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
16. total BS
This is not happening. Propaganda at its worst.
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funkybutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. I know how you feel...that's upsetting
80% of my state voted to amend the constitution to ban gay marriage. My point is: It wasn't legal anyway. Since when do we make amendments to ban something that's already not legal.

Most of my black neighbors and friends have very strong feelings against gay marriage. These ideas have been embedded in their brains from church. What a shame when the pulpit does nothing but spread the hate of this administration. Someone needs to put a serious effort into educating these Ministers!
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
19. This makes me sad.
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 03:13 PM by Borgnine
In the perverted, evil mind of fascist Republicans, they would be gassing African Americans as soon as they extermined all homosexuals in this country. Every black person, every gay person, every minority, every woman, every liberal white male, and even every moderate Republican is in this battle together. I just wish we could all see it.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. hey, isn't that the nut who led the cult who killed themselves
in California?

something about joining with the Mother Ship?
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Yeah, Marshall Applewhite.
I'm starting to see a resemblance between the two.
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Radio-Active Donating Member (735 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. Let the bigots vote for a racist..
Black or white, many are still bigots.

And Bush is definitely a racist. See my sig for proof.

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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
21. "Bush messed everything up make HIM fix it"
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 03:19 PM by underpants
I haven't posted this here before but my co-worker (Black Female-pretty much they all are) told me a few weeks ago that about 10 people had said that quote to her almost exactly.

Good Grief!
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. I heard that from someone in my local coffee shop just an hour or so ago
:-(
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
48. There is logic to that thought under most circumstances - but not w/ Bush!
This is a man who managed to live 58 years on this planet without ever being held accountable for anything.

He's not only unwilling to admit making mistakes, he's incapable of knowing that he HAS made any. And someone with that sort of mindset (or lack of one) couldn't undo the types of mistakes he has made. Not in 4 more years. Not in 40 more years.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
57. God, I've heard that one too.
Several times. That is some scary, scary stuff.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. This is not very scientific evidence.
These are just people you know. The polls show Kerry is still getting a fairly typical level of support from blacks, albeit slightly less than Gore in 2000. But that hasn't transferred to Bush, so we still have some time.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I'm not claiming this is based on "scientific evidence"
I'm just shocked to find out that people I thought were so cool are so stupid.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
55. I see
:-)
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Fluffdaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. 97% of African American voting will go with Kerry. Mark my words
What more can we ask ?
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
25. Catwoman, Had Same Experience. My Reply Was Outrage That ANYONE
would presume to JUDGE whether another human being deserves God's Blessings.

God's Love is Infinite and Eternal.

It IS every person's responsiblity to tap into that Sacred Source.

It is NOT up to anyone else to concern themselves with anothers' Redemption.

If everyone swept up in front of their own houses... then the entire street would be clean.

However, you can make a point but it is most likely NOT going to change any minds.

Being white... I had to bite my tounge and not mention the fact that after Bush is done exterminating Gays he WILL get around to Black people.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. well said -- my sentiments exactly
after Bush is done exterminating Gays he WILL get around to Black people.
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Love Bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
29. You might want to point out to them that Kerry doesn't believe in
gay marriage either. He is for domestic partnerships, but that's not the same thing (sadly).
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Fluffdaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
30. 97% what other group go in those numbers ?
What more can we ask..........100% ? Unrealistic
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #30
65. What about Gay repubs?
There are just as many whites who have these biases in the democratic party. Now let me tell you about blacks and homosexuality from what I know.

The black community has dealt with gays forever. We see them Sunday morning in our choir and on the pulpit. We know who is gay, some of us just do not talk about it.

In just about every family there is an uncle or aunt that the family knows in their heart is gay and we love them just the same. They are welcome to the family reunion, to the Thanksgiving dinner,they babysit the kids, and is their niece or nephew favorite aunt or uncle.

There is an unspoken acceptance. Big Momma loves her child and will defend that child with every breath in her body. DO NOT Fu#$ with a black woman and her children. But that child better not be kissing on a man or woman in her house. It is as simple as that. Take it or leave.

What other demographic can guarantee 90% of the vote and has been taken for granted by the party in the past few years? Black issues are not in vogue right now, but we still vote democratic. Hell, neither Edward or Cheney were aware of the Aids epidermic that is affecting black women at frightening numbers!

Blacks do not have to accept homosexuality if they do not want to, but tolerance is a virtue and should be expected.

My biggest worry is not traditional black votes going to bush, but those blacks staying home. That is what I have been hearing.

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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
31. well...
I don't condone bigotry or homophobia, but there are tensions between the gay and African-American communities that we need to heal. Funding for AIDS clinics and social services, as well as where these clinics are located, has been a bone of contention for years. It's complicated and both sides have a point, but the issue is out there. I think this is one reason why there's so little sympathy - and in some cases, overt hostililty - to gay and lesbian civil rights issues, which makes for easy pickings when it comes to right-wing efforts to stir up homophobia in African-American churches.
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BlueNomad Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
32. Black folks
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 04:12 PM by BlueNomad
who identify themselves as "Christians" are notoriously homophobic. I see this in DC frequently. As a Catholic I can also attest that they give their share of grief to Catholics. Sad but true. My concern for Kerry is that he will ultimately not pull the same 90% that Gore pulled with Black folks despite Bush's hideously poor record. But we shall see.

Edwards would have attracted more and much more easily because of his humble beginnings, Southern roots, law work usually represnting the little guy and Protestant background. Bill Clinton's illness was also a blow as he a tremendous magnet in the community. I feel deeply for Kerry because to win he will ultimately have to walk the walk and talk of Gore--not only with Blacks but women and Jews as well PLUS MORE . It's hard work. LOL. though I suspect it can ultimately be done.

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chrislrob Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
34. Having grown up black and evangelical

I can tell you that homophobia is widespread in the black community. And most of that sentiment stems from the churches. In fact, I have been surprised several times in recent years to learn that various churches have REJECTED homophobia. So it's getting better.

Although they CAN be schizophrenic about it.

Case in point: a few years ago I was dragged to a megachurch's book club meeting by my girlfriend. It turned out that the book of the month was written by a well-known black gay writer. The book was about various couples, gay and straight, and their relationships.

I was unhappy. And uncomfortable (so sue me). But mostly, I was surprised. Black church? Open discussion about gays without someone condemning them to eternal hellfire?

Wow. I was impressed. And felt sheepish about being uncomfortable--it's the 90's, man!

The book club meeting ended.

I then sat goggle-eyed as the next part of the program was revealed. A natural medicine "doctor" announced that homosexuality was a disease. But that he had a cure for it. That he had cured homosexuals before. It envolved taking whole groups of them to an island somewhere off the coast of the Carolinas and "de-toxifying" them using a variety of herbs and spices.

These detoxifiers were administed largely by enema.

No, I'm not making this up.

I looked around the room. And I thought to myself, "Self," I thought, "This is about to get good!" These people are gonna tear this gay-bashing ass-clown apart!

But nothing happened.

The same people that had read the book about the gay folks and discussed it with such reason and compassion now patiently listened to this idiot huckster as though he were making all of the sense in the world! A small tidbit: did you know that male attraction to the female breast is a wholly Western concept?

Well it is. Just like homosexuality it was imported from Europe! See, Westerners are attracted to breast because breasts and the resulting cleavage reminds them of BUTTOCKS!

It all makes sense if you just think about it!

WTF!

Anyway, my point is that black people are at that crossroads where at least you can present a gay viewpoint to the religious. And I think that is a relatively new concept. Because most of these people find homosexuality a sin by pointing to specific bible verses, not just because they don't want gays riding their civil rights coattails.

Evangelicals are very literal. So all that talk about God's love is no match for verses forbidding men to lay down with men.

Finally, the number of black people voting for shrub is very, very, small, so get off of our backs. What percentage of WHITE evangelicals are voting for Bush?

That said, I had to convince my 91 year old grandmother that everyone CLAIMING to be a Christian isn't necessarily a Christian. But all she watches on TV is religious programming. She see's Pat Robertson and the rest support Bush everyday.




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rogue emissary Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
36. The craziest part . . .
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 05:58 PM by rogue emissary
is hearing all these right wing conservatives, actually proud that they tapped into the African American bigot vote. The Repubs can't talk about doing anything substantial for the AA community. Left with nothing positve, they have to go after the hate vote. The gop did it in the late 60's, going after the angry White southern voters. Honestly, they've used hate to win election for the past sixty years now. :grr:
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sr_pacifica Donating Member (775 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
37. If they are so anti-gay,
then why are they fucking themselves in the ass by voting for George W.?
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rogue emissary Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Good question.
:)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #37
52. Oooops!
Nothing like being a one issue voter!
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
38. A freep on another board is claiming Junior has 18% of the Black vote
as opposed to the 9% in 2000. He hasn't backed it up with a source yet, but has anyone else heard these numbers??
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. check my link further up in this thread
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 06:01 PM by CatWoman
but I don't recall the numbers being that high.

on edit -- here it is: http://news.bostonherald.com/election/view.bg?articleid...
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rogue emissary Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. The article also quotes two differing polls

With Bush getting anywhere from 19% to 7%, we won't find out till election day what's the real number.

:shrug:
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. I think he was adding in the Blackshirt vote n/t
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
54. Maybe they are dying to send
their kids to bush's wars! They need to see the Big Picture!

I'll not many Black People in Florida are voting for bush.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
63. It is on the MSNBC website
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
41. Bush will get 5-7% of the black vote max
anyone wanna bet. I keep seeing threads here lamenting blacks voting for Bush. Kerry will get over 90% of the black vote, most blacks arent as gullible as the "ministers" Bush surrounds himself with.
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Fluffdaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Thank you. I don't know one Black person that is voting for Bush
Not one. Yes some of us are a little behind the times about Gays.........But not enough to run the the GOP.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #41
68. The polls are saying 20%. NT
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CitySky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
43. gay marriage will not be the deciding issue for black voters
This thread brings to mind a friend of mine -- black, male, and yes perhaps homophobic. We go to a very diverse church together.

He considered himself a "conservative democrat" and for a while loved baiting/debating me, a fellow Christian, on this and other issues where he knew I would be more "liberal" than he. Voted for the Republican in the mayoral race, I know in part to tick me off.

Then he saw the movie F 9/11. Next conversation: "you know, I used to consider myself a *conservative* Democrat, but not any more! Bush has GOT TO GO!"

Or another smart black man I met on an airplane one time: "THREE people were affected by Clinton's lie ."

Most black voters can see the big picture, even if they have one or another moral qualms.

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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
47. There was a TIME when African American folk in this country were not..
allowed to marry, just breed....someone ought to remind the folks this poster were talking about.

(No flames for the truth either...just speaking out loud)
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. Perhaps a lot of you on this thread don't realize that I am
African American, and I appreciate your many thoughtful posts.

Sometimes I just don't know what's happened to my people.......
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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
58. Sure, they are going to vote against gay marraige, but not for Bush.
Some of the poll results Ive seen in Ohio show that the African American is going for Kerry in overwhelming numbers...95% of those polled...thats massive! Thats probably the highest % of any other demographic.


I do think the African-American folks will vote pretty big against gay marriage due to the influence of the church in their community, but that doesn't mean they are going to vote for Bush.
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secular_warrior Donating Member (705 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
60. Most minorities -especiall blacks- are opposed to gay rights and are upset
about the gay rights movement being equated to the civil rights movement.

It just goes to show you how bigotry knows no bounds; it is a human affliction that can affect even a group of people who were discriminated against in the exact same way gays are being discriminated against now. One would think African-Americans would understand this situation more, but they don't. And it has much less to do with Christianity than it does with outdated beliefs about masculinity and femininity prevalent in most minority communities.

I fear this will be a problem for the Democratic Party with liberals (who are mostly white) on one side -- and blacks, hispanics and other more moderate/conservative Dem constituencies on the other.

ps. this issue has nothing to do with Bush, although he helps fan the flames.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
61. this isn't surprising
i know Kerry has been directly criticized by some black people during his campaigning when he compared civil rights to gay rights. he didn't compare it in that it's exactly the same. but more in terms of people wanting to be equal.

in fact most black people who support bush usually bring up the gay rights issue for their reason why they support him over kerry. i think it was easier for clinton and gore to get around this because they were southern baptists and grew up in the south where they openly spoke of faith so there might have been a more comfortable feeling among religious types (blacks and whites) even though they supported gay rights also.

but with kerry he is catholic and grew up in a place where religion was more of a private thing and rarely spoken of in public. there is probably a feeling there that he doesn't really understand in religious terms.

it's not just black people but some whites who are like this also. but it's just more significant with blacks because of their history of segregation. the thing is that the blacks and whites who tend to vote for republicans because of these things are hurting themselves by voting against their own financial interests.

the good news is that it's not that many black people who are like this even though they may have issues with gay rights.the best example is the alan keyes barak obama race. keyes still can't get much support from black voters even though he himself is black and opposes gay rights. but illinois has turned very democratic so i'm not sure how good an example that is. in close races where the democratic party is very dependent on minority votes to win this will be an issue for a while. it's just something we have to deal with.
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GRLMGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
62. It's not even a realistic issue
Bush knows he can't pass a constitutional amendment but he keeps saying he'll fight to fire up his bigoted base. What upsets me about minorities voting for Bush on that issue is that it ignores all the other issues that will affect them. For example, most of the people who go to fight in Iraq tend to be from poor families. This includes minorities who have been hit hardest by the shitty economy Bush has given us. A bad economy will affect you. Your child being sent to die for no reason will affect you. A gay couple getting married and having the same rights as others will not affect you. I can totally relate to your frustration.
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monobrau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
64. Bigotry comes in all colors
But I'm never surprised to see a cross nearby.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
66.  the fundies want a return to following the bible.
Just a few things the bible says about slaves.

Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. (1Tim. 6:1-5)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. (Eph. 6:5-6)

Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. (Titus 2 :9-10)

Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God's approval. (1Pet. 2:18-29)
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
67. I predicted exactly that, several months ago.
I tried to explain on this forum that it was a very dangerous wedge issue. I said that blacks are 75% against gay marriage. In the black community, the church is very, very important to very many of them. An oppressed and put down people will usually look to a religion as a source of comfort and a guide to life. But so many here are so anti-faith that they are not able to understand it.

I was roundly flamed for trying to warn how effective this would be as a wedge issue. If the polls are accurate, Bush may get up to 20% of the black vote this time, and others may stay home.

Why do you think that Kerry has been campaigning lately to the Black voters, and has had Jesse Jackson addressing the gay-marriage issue? Of course it is dangerous to judge a speech from sound bites - but the sound bite was, "Who put gay marriage on your plate? Do you have any family that has tried to have a gay marriage?" (That's a close paraphrase.) I cringed on that one because Jesse should have known his audience better. He was addressing them as if they were supposed to be blacks only, and not complex breathing people.

This issue is going to hurt us.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Unfortunately, I think you are right
speaking as a black woman who was raised in the church, I must admit that I am alarmed by my brethren lack of common sense and compassion.
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ariesgem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
69. As an African American,
Edited on Wed Oct-20-04 01:00 AM by ariesgem
My sister's church in Pasadena, CA is handing out literature from the ""Traditional Values Coalition." It compares Bushes recorded next to Kerry's based on "their values" and it's basically a guide telling them how to vote. Of course it's "yes" for the Repub. agenda. My sister and her husband drank the Kool-aid but I think I convinced my mother not to fall for this bullshit.

I was wondering where my brother-in-law's hatred for Gays came from. I swear he's bitterly obsessed with gays and all he does is repeat the quotes from the Pastor.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
70. why not, gay's fall for bush's other bs. why not black christians.
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Not Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
72. It won't work
n/t
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SoCalDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
73. I don't believe you

I think you've raised this point before, and somehow I don't believe you. Maybe I actually was reading this same piece on a different forum and by a different poster. Maybe it's deja-vu. Maybe just a weird coincidence...

By know YOU should know that Kerry does NOT SUPPORT GAY MARRAIGE.

If you are a Kerry supporter, you would know this and have pointed it out to your "friends" in this skit described above.
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