Could US have caused the Iran earthquake?

[shawn703]

When I heard the news about the earthquake in Iran, the number of people killed, and how Iran is a "rogue nation", it reminded me of something I heard a while back about how we were developing weapons that could cause earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Here's a link to a story on that - thought I'd throw it out there for the conspiracy theorists to chew on.

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/hawa2.htm

[Torrey Pines]

1. LOL. Let's hope not!

Actually, I think it takes a really enormous amount of energy to create a significant earthquake.

[Liberal Veteran]

2. Not really buying it, but wouldn't something like that make us terrorists?

I mean killing 10000+ people with a magical weapon and without provocation would be an act of terrorism.

Again, I don't really believe we have anything that does that.

[Mercurius]

62. Yes

I'd say that would make us terrorists.

[bvar22]

64. How about killing 10,000plus civilians with magical bombs....

...dropped from 40,000 feet without provocation. Wouldn't that make us terrorists?

[Selwynn]

102. We already are terrorists by our governments own official definition...

So what else is new.

[veracity]

108. Uh.....we ARE terrorists...

Come on....we killed tens of thousands of Iraqis who never did a damned thing to us in these two wars, - with 'conventional weapons.' Do you doubt for a moment that we would hesitate to kill people if it served our interestes? I seem to remember a ten year killing spree in which 4 million Vietnamese died a while back. I suppose they were about to hop into canoes and invade us back then. The US terrorizes the world. Now, more than ever.

[Columbia]

3. Been watching...

The Core too much eh?

[shawn703]

5. Actually, haven't seen it

But I used to spend time on that Rense web page - He had a lot of this kind of stuff... I think they were supposedly called Tesla weapons or something.

[Zuni]

4. Iran is prone to earthquakes

they have a lot of them in Iran. Just last year they had a big one also.
I also think it is impossible for man to create a geological disturbance of this magnitude.

[hexola]

24. All the more reason to use Tetonic weaponry...

The fact that Iran is prone to Earthquakes would make this the perfect spot to use such a weapon...They are counting on your "Oh they always have earthquakes anyway..." attitude...

This could make Iran become politically unstable sooner than later...perfect timing as we wrap things up in Iraq...NEXT!

[picus9]

120. You're right. The sandstorm machine is next.

After that we could unleash the totalitarian government aparatus.

[Cleita]

6. The earthquake in Iran was approximately the same

magnitude the one we had in California Monday. The California earthquake was in a largely rural area. The built up areas have to be up to earthquake code. Unfortunately the historic area of Paso Robles was not, and sustained the most damage and the two deaths. If it had been in San Francisco and Los Angeles, there would have been more casualties and destruction. What you don't know about are the little tragedies that happen like the girl whose horse died of a heart attack right at the time the quake hit.

Now in Iran, the mud brick buildings are probably not able to sustain an earthquake of that magnitude. The sudden shaking feels like a train that has been derailed by an explosion, and starts to roll down a hillside. When the structures start to fall apart and fall and on you is when the rubber hits the pavement.

[sistersofmercy]

7. But you have to account for the time of day and other specifics as well.

I was living in LA at the time of the big 91 earthquake in SF. Because of the time of day many casualties were avoided. Where the epicenter occurs is another factor. Although I do not know the specifics of this particular earthquake in Iran.

[Cleita]

8. From what I understand it was in the night, so people

had to scramble from their beds but many couldn't get outside in time. I know that in our high rise society, the middle of the night is actually better, but in Iran the places they lived in tumbled down on top of them. This is very sad really. If they had access to our building materials and money, these tragedies could be averted. I think also there is so much graft that even if they had building codes most likely they have been circumvented with bribery.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

9. see "tectonic weapons" in this bill "Space Preservation Act 2001" HR2977

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HR 2977 IH


107th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 2977
To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.


IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

October 2, 2001
Mr. KUCINICH introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Science, and in addition to the Committees on Armed Services, and International Relations, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A BILL
To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Space Preservation Act of 2001'.

SEC. 2. REAFFIRMATION OF POLICY ON THE PRESERVATION OF PEACE IN SPACE.

Congress reaffirms the policy expressed in section 102(a) of the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 (42 U.S.C. 2451(a)), stating that it `is the policy of the United States that activities in space should be devoted to peaceful purposes for the benefit of all mankind.'.

SEC. 3. PERMANENT BAN ON BASING OF WEAPONS IN SPACE.

The President shall--

(1) implement a permanent ban on space-based weapons of the United States and remove from space any existing space-based weapons of the United States; and

(2) immediately order the permanent termination of research and development, testing, manufacturing, production, and deployment of all space-based weapons of the United States and their components.

SEC. 4. WORLD AGREEMENT BANNING SPACE-BASED WEAPONS.

The President shall direct the United States representatives to the United Nations and other international organizations to immediately work toward negotiating, adopting, and implementing a world agreement banning space-based weapons.

SEC. 5. REPORT.

The President shall submit to Congress not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, and every 90 days thereafter, a report on--

(1) the implementation of the permanent ban on space-based weapons required by section 3; and

(2) progress toward negotiating, adopting, and implementing the agreement described in section 4.

SEC. 6. NON SPACE-BASED WEAPONS ACTIVITIES.

Nothing in this Act may be construed as prohibiting the use of funds for--

(1) space exploration;

(2) space research and development;

(3) testing, manufacturing, or production that is not related to space-based weapons or systems; or

(4) civil, commercial, or defense activities (including communications, navigation, surveillance, reconnaissance, early warning, or remote sensing) that are not related to space-based weapons or systems.

SEC. 7. DEFINITIONS.

In this Act:

(1) The term `space' means all space extending upward from an altitude greater than 60 kilometers above the surface of the earth and any celestial body in such space.

(2)(A) The terms `weapon' and `weapons system' mean a device capable of any of the following:

(i) Damaging or destroying an object (whether in outer space, in the atmosphere, or on earth) by--

(I) firing one or more projectiles to collide with that object;

(II) detonating one or more explosive devices in close proximity to that object;

(III) directing a source of energy (including molecular or atomic energy, subatomic particle beams, electromagnetic radiation, plasma, or extremely low frequency (ELF) or ultra low frequency (ULF) energy radiation) against that object; or

(IV) any other unacknowledged or as yet undeveloped means.

(ii) Inflicting death or injury on, or damaging or destroying, a person (or the biological life, bodily health, mental health, or physical and economic well-being of a person)--

(I) through the use of any of the means described in clause (i) or subparagraph (B);

(II) through the use of land-based, sea-based, or space-based systems using radiation, electromagnetic, psychotronic, sonic, laser, or other energies directed at individual persons or targeted populations for the purpose of information war, mood management, or mind control of such persons or populations; or

(III) by expelling chemical or biological agents in the vicinity of a person.

(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;

(ii) chemtrails;

(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;

(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;

(v) laser weapons systems;

(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and

(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.

(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.

[worldgonekrazy]

65. Very interesting. Thank you

My first reaction is "of course Bush didn't cause a fucking earthquake!" It seems ludicrous. But damn, if Kucinich (who I believe wrote the bill?) thinks this is an issue he is probably right, as he surely knows a lot more than I do about what really goes on.

[Ediacara]

10. EMPHATIC NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is no technology capable of creating earthquakes, nor anything anomalous about the Iranian earthquake. There is no reason to think that the US would or could cause an earthquake in an extremely earthquake prone area of the world.

Take the fucking tinfoil off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cleita]

12. Thanks DinoBoy.

I grew up in Northern Chile in what at that time was the largest copper mine in the world. The explosions in the open pit mine were on a daily basis. We also had minor earthquakes on a daily basis. Trust me the explosives in the mines, which were considerable, never started an earthquake. The rumbles from both were quite different from each other and the times never coincided in a meaningful way.

[SheilaT]

11. Don't take all the silly

science fiction movies you see seriously.

All of the middle east is a seismically very active. They have earthquakes there all the time. And as someone else pointed out, the methods of contruction used are not at all earthquake proof.

[shawn703]

13. Not the science fiction movies

I swear, I got this stuff from the Internet. =)

[HEyHEY]

14. ummm...no

Maybe it was Elvis and Jimmy Hoffa

[Minstrel Boy]

15. An emphatic maybe. I believe it was a natural occurance, but

tectonic weapons are only tinfoil if you haven't been paying attention.

In 1997 William Cohen, then-Secretary of Defense, spoke of countries "engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves." http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr1997/t042897_t0428co...

Here's a recent thread on the subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Sounds crazy, I know. But that's the Pentagon for you. I'm not suggesting tectonic weapons are operational. They may be still in development, or even merely theory, but clearly they are of interest to more than we poor paranoiacs.

Weather modification sounds like science fiction, but it is an objective of the US military. Here's an example of such thinking, from a study submitted to the Air Force Chief of Staff in 1996, when he called for an examination of "the concepts, capabilities, and technologies the United States will need to remain the dominant air and space force in the future":

"US aerospace forces can 'own the weather' by capitalizing on emerging technologies and focusing development of those technologies to war-fighting applications. Such a capability offers the war fighter tools to shape the battlespace in ways never before possible. It provides opportunities to impact operations across the full spectrum of conflict and is pertinent to all possible futures. The purpose of this paper is to outline a strategy for the use of a future weather-modification system to achieve military objectives rather than to provide a detailed technical road map.

"A high-risk, high-reward endeavor, weather-modification offers a dilemma not unlike the splitting of the atom. While some segments of society will always be reluctant to examine controversial issues such as weather-modification, the tremendous military capabilities that could result from this field are ignored at our own peril. From enhancing friendly operations or disrupting those of the enemy via small-scale tailoring of natural weather patterns to complete dominance of global communications and counterspace control, weather-modification offers the war fighter a wide-range of possible options to defeat or coerce an adversary."
http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume3/chap15/v3c15-1.htm

A question: what would a test of a tectonic weapon look like?

[bpilgrim]

17. great way to strike the FEAR of GOD in a rival... specially if they are

RELIGIOUS.

also another 'useful' option for premption, 'look, the cubans just hit florida with a HURRICANE, get'um!'



peace

[Tinoire]

21. Quantum Physics and Mechanics have already achieved this

it has to do with black-hole geometry, scalar wave equations for Kerr metrics, Dirac spinors and a bunch of other crap that bored me to tears when I was dating a Physicist from the Max-Planck Institute years ago.

Other big words like rectangular and Dirac Delta functions but don't ask me for any details or explanations- this stuff was way over my head and I was very uninterested but this guy was brilliant in his field and totally fascinated by existing scalar electromagnetic devices (from years ago).

I am astonished that people are calling this stuff "tin-foil" hat material. If that is indeed what some believe, they better really vote for Kucinich and put an immediate end to the billions we've invested in researching and developing this technology.

[plaguepuppy]

39. Scalar electromagnetics

Thanks for that interesting bit of history. There are enough bits and pieces of information out there about the subject to convince me that it is real, and fits quite nicely with an expanded view of electromagnetic waves. Maxwell's original equations were written in "quaternion" form, with three spatial vector components and a fourth dimensionless (i.e. scalar) component.

That scalar component was edited out when Heaviside et al. "improved" Maxwell's equations by removing the scalar term, leaving only the modern vector version of the original quaternion form.

Try here for more technical and historical details: http://www.cheniere.org/books/analysis/index.html

As for earthquakes, scalar waves are especially well suited to triggering these because of the highly stressed nature of earthquake faults, which makes them effective transducers of scalar waves. Most of the earthquake energy is already present in the form of stress at the fault - it only takes a relatively small additional input to encourage it to break loose and move a little, relieving the strain.

[Shrikeangel]

50. I'm sorry, talk of earthquake weapons is complete nonsense...

And I have found that almost anyone who talks of Tesla's secret inventions is invariably a crackpot.

Nikola Tesla made enormous contributions to electromagnetic technology. But toward the end of his life he made ludicrous and grandiose claims for which he presented no evidence whatsoever.

I don't care what physicists you think you've talked to, or what you think they've said, this is nonsense. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel bad, I'm just saying that ANYONE can put ANYTHING on the internet, and talk about Tesla and delta functions all they want, but that doesn't make what they say true. I've one degree in physics, I'm working on a couple of others as we speak, and I know something of electromagnetism and delta functions.

"Quantum physics and mechanics have already achieved this" indeed! In what laboratory? When? Who? Were their results replicated? Which physicist from the Max-Planck institute did you date, since I cite papers from some of them in my research? Does he actually believe Tesla had magical powers, or has he a merely scholarly interest in crackpottery, as I have?

Oh, I see, it's all "secret" and kept "covered up" by the guvviment. Whose black helicopters are no doubt coming to take away all those who posted to or read this thread.

The government couldn't even conceal a Presidential sex act, which only two people knew about...

[Catshrink]

56. Already?

Post #1: "The government couldn't even conceal a Presidential sex act, which only two people knew about..."

Even though I do agree with you that this was a natural disaster and had nothing to do with an "earthquake weapon." You could have made your point without picking on the Big Dog.

[shanti]

69. yes

funny how clinton's penis is so OFTEN associated with everything, isn't it

[nomatrix]

130. May I try?

In the form of a Jeopardy answer
What is
Did the earth move for you?

[picus9]

117. I DISAGREE IT IS POSSIBLE, IDJUT!

It's like that movie when the scientists have to go to the Earth's CORE to start the CORE spinning again because the government stopped the CORE with their earthquake machine.

What was that movie called again?

[some1noo]

22. Nice work on the out of context quote

Minstrel Boy quotes William Cohen in a way that is totally opposite to the intended meaning. Here is more of the context. Great example of how to generate propoganda.

(from the link given above, http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr1997/t042897_t0428co... )

Q: Let me ask you specifically about last week's scare here in Washington, and what we might have learned from how prepared we are to deal with that (inaudible), at B'nai Brith.

A (William COhen): Well, it points out the nature of the threat. It turned out to be a false threat under the circumstances. But as we've learned in the intelligence community, we had something called -- and we have James Woolsey here to perhaps even address this question about phantom moles. The mere fear that there is a mole within an agency can set off a chain reaction and a hunt for that particular mole which can paralyze the agency for weeks and months and years even, in a search. The same thing is true about just the false scare of a threat of using some kind of a chemical weapon or a biological one. There are some reports, for example, that some countries have been trying to construct something like an Ebola Virus, and that would be a very dangerous phenomenon, to say the least. Alvin Toeffler has written about this in terms of some scientists in their laboratories trying to devise certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic specific so that they could just eliminate certain ethnic groups and races; and others are designing some sort of engineering, some sort of insects that can destroy specific crops. Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves.

-- end quote,

So Minstel Boy, do you see where you fit in to what Cohen is talking about?

[Minstrel Boy]

25. The rest of the quote:

Immediately following these remarks:

"Others are engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves."

Sec of Def William Cohen said:

"So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important."

[aquart]

77. Well, the ring of fire is pretty active lately.

And tectonic action is connected to other tectonic action. So starting an earthquake in one place could have some nasty unintended effects in another and another and another.

[bobthedrummer]

29. These are directed energy systems from different sources

like radio frequency radiation/RFR, electromagnetic radiation/EMR, and Extremely Low or Ultra High frequencies ELF/UHF for starters.
Scientific progress is always the pick of the litter for national security, who knows what all seemingly God-like powers we have clandestinely developed and deployed?
Here are some more links to consider before dismissing all this talk of tectonic weapons as tinfoil.

Starwars by Dr. Nick Begich
http://www.adacomp.net/~mcherney/starwars.html


We live in a world where our human perceptions are being manipulated for political agendas, some of it is overt and some of it is covert-call it mind control, that too is quite real.

Mind Control
Igor Smirnov link-The former USSR was in a covert arms race for these types of weapons so there must have been results to justify budget in a command economy.
http://www.raven1.net/cwrussia.htm
More on covert arms race
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~welsh/book.htm

Some of this mind control "research" had spin-offs like the non-lethal
arsenal which is very interesting to peruse even though dated because of the conceptual framework used to describe this stuff, makes even tectonic weapons sound feasible IMO.
http://www.datafilter.com/mc/nonlethalWeapons.html

[Astarho]

35. I agree

I think this one was natural, but I don't doubt the Pentagon is looking into tectonic weapons

[VegasVixen]

128. Testing a "tectonic weapon"

It is really odd that there was an earthquake 30 miles outside of Richmond, VA a couple of weeks ago. Everyone said it was a once-in-a-lifetime event for our region - earthquakes only occur once every 75 years or so. Maybe they were testing the tectonic weapon there!!!

[julia and the boyz]

16. failure of imagination

Do you earnestly believe they would not? And if you still do not after all that has happened what else do you believe?

Do you think it's true that:

Every live thing is a survivor on a kind of extended emergency bivouac. But at the same time we are also created. In the Koran, Allah asks, "The heaven and the earth and all in between, thinkest thou I made them in jest?" It's a good question. What do we think of the created universe, spanning an unthinkable void with an unthinkable profusion of forms? ...If the giant water bug was not made in jest, was it then made in earnest? (Annie Dillard)

You know they would and I ask what you will do about it. You know they have reserved the right to destroy. You know I have the right to ask and you have the duty to answer.

[Must_B_Free]

18. Even if we did

it would still just a coincidence...

[oasis]

19. Iran has had nearly 1,000 eathquakes over the last decade or so. This has

caused the deaths of nearly 18,000 people. The final death count from the recent disaster is not included in that number.

[Silverhair]

20. No way in hell.

To trigger an event requires a release of energy (Think huge H-bomb units of energy.) in the correct spots to allow the stuck plates to slip past one another. So we would have to go to Iran itself, to the epicenter, (deep underground) to do something there to trigger the event.

I suppose that the tinfoil hatter would counter that we did it remotely. This is even more absurd. We would have to feed the energy into some sort of machine here to get it to trigger there. Since no process transmitts energy with 100% efficiency, then there would be nuclear bomb sized leakage of energy at the transmission site, which would destroy the transmission site.

Tinfoil hat theories really annoy me.

[uncle ray]

26. and what are those nifty little bombs they have called?

bunker busters? the ones that shoot underground and blow up underground sites? don't suppose that technology would help.

when our guys say we need to DEFEND against this kind of thing, you had better start to believe they put some of their own development into it themselves.

it gets really bothersome to hear someone always saying to put the tinfoil hat away, something isn't right about these times, i think you would agree, and we need to question everything. its clear that the Nazi's developed technologies like this, and it would be awfully naive to think our government just shrugged it off and not pursue it from where they left off. just one look at the not so subtle mind control they currently use...

i wonder how small of a trigger event it would take to cause an earthquake like this, methinks a lot smaller than most would think, think of a moderately large explosion, WELL below the surface of the earth, placed strategically to a fault line, hmmmm.

how about this for tinfoil hat stuff...what affect would taking out millions of tons of oil, along with the bombing we did in neighbor Iraq almost a year ago have on the stability of the earths plates in that region?

[alfredo]

30. Some of these faults are miles below ground. The bomb it would take

to trigger an earthquake would do more damage than the quake.

Why bother with a quake when you can vaporize everything in the area.

[bobthedrummer]

32. Don't think bomb think of other ways like sonic waves

or frequencies, that is where a lot of our taxes went for national security. Directed energy weapons.

Whoever knows how to do an earthquake must be getting a lot of pay today, that's for sure.

[Minstrel Boy]

41. HAARP

The HAARP array in Alaska, the most powerful in the world and part of the Strategic Defence Initiative, is capable of sending an enormously powerful electromagnetic pulse at a targeted point deep underground, anywhere on the Earth. Those who monitor HAARP transmissions have observed unusual bursts of activity preceding a recent number of seismic events. It could mean nothing, but are people crazy for taking notice?

Read more about HAARP here:

"Washington's New World Order Weapons Have the Ability to Trigger Climate Change" by Michel Chossudovsky

http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/haarp.htm

[Silverhair]

46. He is not a scientist. His PhD is in economics.

If you want me to believe any of this, I am going to need to see a reputable SCIENTIST writing about it. A partisan economist is unconvincing.

[worldgonekrazy]

66. Good point, but...

I live in Alaska and have been near HARRP (which is located near Tok, Alaska). You can just tell there is weird sinister shit going on there. Electromagnetic waves to cause earthquakes? Perhaps not, but whatever it is, it ain't friendly.

[Silverhair]

72. I am speaking specifically about the ability to remotely cause

earthquakes. That you may think HAARP to be weird & sinister proves absolutely nothing. Have you been inside HAARP? What do you actually know about it? I mean ACTUALLY KNOW, not stories picked up at bars.

Have you been watching a lot of X-files reruns?

[Silverhair]

44. You haven't solved the problem of the huge amount of energy

needed to trigger the event, nor what to do about energy leakage from the transmission site. And that's just for starters. That tinfoil hat is cramping your brain.

[bobthedrummer]

48. I'm a generalist, not a scientist

you seem to be in a lot of denial for some reason, and as a last ditch defense to considering what is known about exotic weapons you throw out aspersions to my character with the tin foil hat ploy.

I assure you that I'm not posting from an institution, nor am I "on meds"-and I'm sure several of the other posters and I are on the same general page in the hidden library.

That's where this stuff comes from-the hidden library of national security. It's not for the squeamish, like realpolitik.

[Silverhair]

59. Please show me scientific evidence.

Carl Sagan is supposed to have said that extreme claims require extreme proof. I have a degree in math with a minor in physics, so I can follow many discussions in the sciences.

Some things in science are pretty basic, and don't require a doctorate to know that it is bullcrap. To trigger an earthquake you have to release enough energy to unlock a tetonic plate. Even our biggest H-bombs would not have enough energy for that.

No one that has responded to any of my posts has answered my scientific objections of energy generation, transmission, and disposal of waste energy at the transmission site.

Most of the responders don't seem to understand just how massive a tetonic plate is.

I have a personal disdain for tinfoil hatters because they enable our opponents to say, "See what nutty thinks the Democrats believe?"

[Terwilliger]

60. that's not necessarily true

large munitions placed near a stress point along a plate could start the chain w/o necessarily being the prime mover of the earthquake

still, this theory is ridiculous...I'm sure some Iranians would take notice if the saw the American military mining something in their country

[Silverhair]

63. Besides, you would have to know the stress point, and it

would have to be ready to go anyway. The earth's plates are kind of huge, like really really big, and it would take a lot of enegy to move them.

On the other hand, pumping a lubricant, like water, into a stressed fault might be interesting.

[Silverhair]

43. You are being logical. Tinfoil hatters don't like that. n/t

[smirkymonkey]

81. Because a quake is considered

an "Act of God", hence no earthly enemy to retaliate against. A bomb is an Act of Man, with all its attendant repercussions.

I don't think this theory is so far fetched and if it exists in actuality, though it is morally reprehensible, strategically it could be very effective. Something to think about anyway.

[Silverhair]

84. Execpt for being impossible, you would be right.

Just because something would be deliciously evil and wonderful to gripe about doesn't mean that Bush has it. If you would take a look a the physical problems that can't even be touched with today's physics, even cutting edge physics, then you would understand just how silly you tinfoil hatters are on this issue.

[Silverhair]

42. A flea jumping on an elephant's back has more chance of

breaking the elephant's back than our biggest bomb at the best spot has of starting an earthquake. The mass of the crustal plate is a rather large figure, and beside it, even a nuke is just a tiny firecracker.

And you have to get it there. The bunker buster bombs don't go very deep when you are talking about plate techtonics. In comparison to the depths that many earthquakes occur at, our deepest penetrator bombs are surface explosions.

[uncle ray]

71. OK then,

forget i said "bomb" how about "device". it would not necessarily take an explosion, how about resonance? perhaps the HAARP system can induce a resonance of the Teutonic plate, yeah its pretty far out stuff but so is using sound waves to bring down aircraft, which Germany developed and built such a device, to limited success(short range), posted here a while back.

i couldn't even begin to argue the ways it could be done, or its likelihood, but you seem to suggest it would take some force that we could never create, i disagree, we have the capability to create tremendous explosions/reactions what have you, but the problem is harnessing that power for practical use.

before i continue, I'll state that i think it was likely a natural earthquake, but what the fuck if? the point of Iran being prone to earthquakes can be argued as a good reason for the tinfoil hat theory here. all it might take is a well timed triggering event.

i don't need to understand or be able to explain something for it to potentially exist or work, i haven't the slightest idea how this computer works, but it does, and a hundred years ago you would have been committed for suggesting a magic box that can do just about anything you ask it to.

why can't we ever ask the question? what if? without getting a tinfoil hat shoved down our throat?

[Silverhair]

73. In 1903 commiting a person talking like that would have been correct.

The computer didn't exist then, and to have spoken of it as if it did exist would have been evidence of insanity.

In a hundred years we may be able to remotely induce earthquakes - but we can't now. We aren't even close.

Your speculations violate a good bit of current physics. Perhaps you are not fully aware of them. I would suggest taking a few courses at a local univeristy.

Yes, we can create some big explosions, but on a global scale they aren't that big. Tectonic plates are so huge that a nuke is a nothing to them.

The problem with tinfoil hatters is that all answers are evidence of the conspiracy. Earthquake in Mississippi? Obviously it was the gov't as there aren't natural quakes there. In Iran - yep, great place to test it as everyone will think it is a natural event.

Ask questions? Some questions are more sensible that others. To ask if the USA may have cause the Iranian quake is a nonsense question. It betrays ignorance, or parania on the part of the questioner. It betrays a tinfoil hat mentality.

[smirkymonkey]

82. Here, here!!

To have the opportunity to ask the questions without reprisal, no matter how ridiculous, is the essence of intellectual freedom. (And we all know how much you-know-who despises that concept.)

Many theories and beliefs that we today take for granted were once thought of as preposterous. There are many who thought Tuskeegee or even the Holocaust were the product of the "tinfoil hatters". It seems to me that such defensiveness against the posters question belies a underlying fear of what might be.

If we all just accepted that only the things we could "logically" explain were true, human progress would stop dead in its tracks.

[PSR40004]

23. LOL

Wow he's gotta stop drinking all that coffee right before bedtime...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Iran is tremendously earthquake prone

I've been hearing about major earthquakes there since I was a kid in the 1950s.

Now maybe the U.S. has some sort of earthquake-causing device (although the technology is hard to imagine, if you know anything about how earthquakes occur in nature), but in this case, I think we had better follow the medical school adage: "If you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."

If you've never lived in an earthquake-prone area, you may not know how common the movers and shakers are. During my 18 years in Oregon, I felt perhaps six earthquakes, and there were others, reported in the newspaper, that were too small to be felt.

During that same period, Iran has had a couple of major, building-toppling earthquakes.

[amazona]

28. I doubt it

The area is seismically active without any help from us.

[flatlandr]

31. Scalar capability's no big deal.

'Seen b*sh on CSPAN, yucking it up at a fundraisers before drought-beaten
farmers: 'We can't control the weather for you yet, but we're working on it.'

[Demeter]

33. The Sun and Moon Alignments Trigger Earthquakes

We just passed through the Solstice with a coincident lunar eclipse. Earthquakes are seasonal and bunch around these events. Even Bush cannot with all his bullshit move the planets and stars around.

Those earthquakes that do not fall into these clusters tend to be volcanic in source.

[cowpie]

34. I just blew coffee out of my nose

Thanks for the belly laugh.

[0007]

97. Is that a new trick you've just learned?

[phaseolus]

45. Um .... got a reputable scientific source to back that up?

I'm wondering how a solstice would have anything to do with plate tectonics...

[worldgonekrazy]

67. Um...plate tectonics?

But the main point still holds true: it is rather hard to fathom that Bush (or the gov't in general, or anyone for that matter) has the power to alter such powerful forces.

[AngryAmish]

36. Iran gets put on the axis of evil...

And then just happens to have a huge earthquake.

Coincidence? Even after everything we have seen from this president?

[private_ryan]

38. you got a sense of humor

if you were being sarcastic....that is

[leesa]

37. I was wondering. We were bombing Baghdad at the time, I believe

Remember the earthquakes in Afghanistan as we were bombing there.

[chthonic]

40. Perhaps an additional layer of foil might clear your mind

Ockham must be spinning in his grave listening to this utter hogwash. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you engage, even half heartedly, in 1/125 baked conspiracy theories? What's next blaming GWB for Kucinich's tragic hairdo, or Dean's rage induced aneurysm and subsequent political meltdown scheduled for September 2004? (Remember, you heard it here first)

[shawn703]

49. Yes, and as another poster pointed out in another thread

6 have occurred in the region between 2001 and 2003. The previous 6 occurred there between 1923 and 2001.


Edited to provide link to thread mentioned above...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[worldgonekrazy]

68. Love the picture, BTW

Both funny and....tragic somehow (perhaps because the truth hurts).

[blondeatlast]

58. Posting here for momentary edit . . .

[maggrwaggr]

47. uh ... how insulting can I be here without getting deleted?

thanks for making us all look like fools.

Since you were obviously born yesterday, I'd like to inform you that Iran has a long history of terrible earthquakes.

[Selwynn]

51. Man, that is a brutal, but great pic you have there!

So sad and so true...

[11 Bravo]

52. This is precisely the type of silly horseshit that RW talk radio loves.

How long do you think it will be until the fat junkie and his wannabe cohorts claim that DUers have accused the United States of mass murder?

[blondeatlast]

57. Yup, bet it'sd already the hit of FReepeRadio.

[Adjoran]

53. sheer insanity

maybe the aliens did it because they couldn't find Sasquatch to abduct and probe

[VegasVixen]

133. Sasquatch and Aliens

I don't think the Aliens are interested in probing a Sasquatch. That wouldn't help further their plan of creating alien-human hybrids. I do so miss the X-files ...

[blondeatlast]

54. I've been thinking of designing a line of fashionable tinfoil hats . . .

I'll e-mail you the URL when the site is up!

[Terwilliger]

55. that's a GREAT pic

that should be widely distributed!

[Minstrel Boy]

61. I see no post asserting the earthquake was artificially induced;

merely that the US has an interest in the military application of weather modification, including tectonic weapons. Does anyone dispute this? So, why the ridicule?

The Soviet Union and the Russian Republic pursued tectonic weapons capability under Project Mercury and Project Vulcan. The program was discontinued in the mid-90s for lack of funds. Is that a pressing problem for the Pentagon?

I presume the earthquake was a natural occurance. I don't know if the US military's interest in tectonic weapons has progressed beyond theory to r&d to experimentation and deployment, or whether it's been abandoned altogether. Anyone here know? Until we do, why shouldn't we ask questions, and keep our eyes open?

[Shrikeangel]

70. The former Soviet Union funded a lot of crackpottery...

if the Party thought there could be such a thing as tectonic weapons, what Soviet scientist would be willing to tell them it was nonsense; after seeing what happened to sane biologists when the Soviet Union decreed Lysenkoism to be the state evolutionary theory, I don't blame them.

The Nazis also funded crackpottery, and ran many of their sane scientists out of Germany. Just because you can find government fools willing to subsidize something, it doesn't mean there's anything to it.

Tectonic weapons and weather control satellites are tinfoli-hattery, regardless.

And THAT'S why the posters taking it seriously are being subjected to ridicule.

You may not like Bush, but to suggest that he has the power to command demons, in a serious context, is laughable. As is suggesting seriously that he may have used a tectonic weapon on Iran.

Why didn't he use them on Iraq, geniuses? Is Iran so much more powerful that the US doesn't dare attack them openly?

I'm beginning to wonder if this thread isn't the product of Freeper trollery. If so, those of you who fell for it are proving them right... not that they don't have their share of crackpots. Tesla nuts are spread about equally on left and right, I've seen.

[TomNickell]

74. Nonsense.

Bush can't cause earthquakes. Claiming he does, give him God-like powers. It is a kind of worship.

There wouldn't be much point in doing so, even if he could.

Iran has deadly earthquakes all the time. This is just another one.

[Junkdrawer]

76. My God, I agree with TomNickell...

This must be the End Time..

[blondeatlast]

78. HAH!

[TomNickell]

80. That's progress. n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

75. it looks like the whole world's shaking:

Check out the seismograms at the Live Internet Seismic Server. At the moment (Sat Dec 27 18:05:13 MST 2003) there's not a flat line in the bunch. Whole lotta jiggling here, there, everywhere.

http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2.shtml

[blondeatlast]

79. That is a WAY cool site--thanks.

Kid loves science, even if he is just 6.

[smirkymonkey]

83. Any bonafide Geologists or

Plate Tectonics Specialists care to chime in with their two-cents on this issue?

I would be curious to know if such a thing is possible, if not now, then in the near future. It just doesn't seem that far-fetched to me for some reason.

[Silverhair]

85. Here is some valid reasoning why it is so silly.

My major was math with a minor in physics, so I am not igorant in the sciences. This can be addressed using what is already common knowledge about earthquakes.

Earthquakes occur when two of the earth's tectonic plates are sliding past one another. They can be going on under the other, or side by side. As the plates move they lock at the fault line, until the sheering pressure exceeds the locking force, at which time they then suddenly slip past each other, and the strain is then placed on a new lock point. When the plates slip, they release a small amount of energy. Because we humans are so tiny, the energy seems to us to be a monsterous amount and hugly destructive.)

Now take a look at what would be needed to have an earthquake weapon.

1. You would have to be able to exactly predict earthquakes. You would have to know where the plates were stressed to the point of fracture so you woould know where to aim your weapon. And you would have to be able to do that remotely. Current science is not able to do that.

2. Once you have the target located, you have to be able to put enough energy into the fault to make the plates release. The amount of energy required for that is so extreme that even our mightiest nukes are notup to the task. You are talking about pushing a tectonic plate around. We simply are not able to release that much energy.

[Silverhair]

86. Completion of above post.

I accidently posted before I was finished. Here is the rest.

3. You have to get that huge amount of energy to the target. Since one may assume that your aren't going to go to the target and drill down to the fault line, then you are talking about some means of doing it remotely. So you have to transmit an amount of energy that we can't even generate, to a target. (Star Trek Phasers?) We don't have the means to transmit that much energy.

4. You have to dispose of waste energy at the transmission site. When energy is put into a transmission system, there is ALWAYS waste, because no transmission system is 100%. Some of that incredible amount of energy is going to leak out at the transmission site and will have to be disposed of. We are talking about waste energy on the level of nukes. The waste energy alone would blow your transmission site to hell.

These are just some of the problems. There is no known physics today that can possibly cause an remote triggered earthquake.

And to try to cause an earthquake where one is already close to release would require even more energy.

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT SHOVING TECTONIC PLATES AROUND. We just can't do that.

[uncle ray]

91. sorry, no fancy degrees here...

not that there's anything wrong with a good education...just wild assed speculation here, but then you probably suspected that.

"1. You would have to be able to exactly predict earthquakes. You would have to know where the plates were stressed to the point of fracture so you woould know where to aim your weapon. And you would have to be able to do that remotely. Current science is not able to do that."

why would we have to exactly predict them? hypothetical device could generate a increasing sine wave type pattern, at some resonant frequency of the earth in the targeted earthquake prone area. sure, i don't know of the exact current science that can do this, but i don't keep up with very many top secret government breakthroughs. they don't teach much about those at the schools i can attend.

"2. Once you have the target located, you have to be able to put enough energy into the fault to make the plates release. The amount of energy required for that is so extreme that even our mightiest nukes are notup to the task. You are talking about pushing a tectonic plate around. We simply are not able to release that much energy."

so how big of a force would it take to trigger an earthquake? i don't know. how big of an energy source have we been able to create? i don't know that either, or how it could be accurately measured. done all at once, probably a tremendous force, unimiganeable force. but, think of that force in practical terms, like rocking your car to get it unstuck, or bending a piece of metal repeatedly until it finally breaks, using smaller uses of energy to accomplish a larger task.

"3. You have to get that huge amount of energy to the target. Since one may assume that your aren't going to go to the target and drill down to the fault line, then you are talking about some means of doing it remotely. So you have to transmit an amount of energy that we can't even generate, to a target. (Star Trek Phasers?) We don't have the means to transmit that much energy."

well i don't keep track of much drilling in the mideast, but i suppose if they were so inclined, it could be disguised as maybe uh, an oil drilling operation? your idea not mine, sounds more plausable than the theories about a rocket not an airplane hitting the pentagon.

"4. You have to dispose of waste energy at the transmission site. When energy is put into a transmission system, there is ALWAYS waste, because no transmission system is 100%. Some of that incredible amount of energy is going to leak out at the transmission site and will have to be disposed of. We are talking about waste energy on the level of nukes. The waste energy alone would blow your transmission site to hell."

waste energy? allow me to take a drink of beer and a hit off my bong while i ponder the waste energy, ok i'll go along with a phenomonal nuclear explosion for the sake of your point, but suppose that transmission site is well below the surface, "all" the energy is going into the matter you are trying to affect. no? whatever is wasted is of little concern down there.

surely i know less than you on the math or science of this, of which nobody on the topic here has mentioned, and maybe the person who felt it was worth investigating to defend aganst teutonic weapons know more than you do about the status of devolpment of this kind of weapons? again, causing earthquakes sounds pretty far out to me, but why wait until after someone else figures out how to do it to worry about it? let us ask the questions without being ridiculed.

a question i asked earlier, rephrased, isn't the middle east, kind of like a giant landfill? where DID all that oil come from? is there NO possibility that removing what? millions, billions? of gallons of oil from the region might have some affect on the stability of the earth there?

[Silverhair]

94. That's why you should learn some science. Even high school...

level physics would be sufficient to protect you from that kind of error. You don't seem to comprehend how huge tectonic plates are and how much energy would be required to push a plate around. You attempt at scientific talk produced only gibberish, that showed that you have no idea what you are talking about.

[uncle ray]

121. i never claimed to know anything

just crazy ideas.

i really wish i could have stayed in school longer, but they kick a person out of public school at some point, ready or not. as it is, i remember all too many times in high school asking questions the teachers could not answer. funny thing was, the class i learned the most in was English, but i learned nothing about English. all i learned was about real life skills, partly because the teacher in that particular class would encourage discussions about such "stupid" topics, even though they had nothing to do with the lesson plan, instead of insulting the kids for daring to ask the questions for which the teacher has no answers. don't even get me started on my history or current events teachers....fwiw that was over a decade ago.

yes i threw out some pretty crazy thoughts. i think the transmission of energy by waves could be one of the least known/exploited technologies. its certainly one of the most fascinating. i know first hand the power of "sound" i could make you vomit with it, or with enough power "float" a giant concrete block down the street. amazing things can be done. everything has a resonant frequency, you just have to learn to use it properly.

no doubt you have many years of education on me, much more experience, but it is just plain naive of you to suggest that we should give absolutely NO thought to the subject here. saying that Teutonic plates are big doesn't debunk anything, not that there is much to debunk anyway. just a crazy theory. if it doesn't interest you, fine. i would rather someone help with facts, i already KNOW how far out the idea is! but the facts are, that SOMEONE has researched this, whether the Germans, the U.S., private entities, SOMEONE has, or else the SOD was just as stupid as "we" are to even have suggested it.

you say its impossible for man to have some influence on the movement of the earths surface, i say it's not impossible. likely? probably not, but possible. can you give us that much?

[VegasVixen]

134. maybe you are with the administration ...

why are you so negative? Maybe you are a mole sent here by the administration to distract us if we get too close to the "truth" !!!

[Darranar]

87. I highly doubt it...

There was no reason for them to do so.

[Deja Q]

88. Then why did nobody notice this? The Euro media would have said something

Besides, the US send them a bunch of medical supplies - I could as to why, but it makes no sense.


Especially when we don't know the ramifications of future issues related to our !^@%#$ warmongering. We could be putting ourselves in the noose as well, and to date Shrubbypants* has stuck with mostly conventional weapons of mass destruction.

I don't think that even * is capable of such atrocity. Not yet anyway, although I do think he's responsible for allowing 9/11 to happen (either not giving a F about hijacking attempts right down to allowing it so he could turn this country into the latest fascist regime, it works either way).

Besides, isn't North Korea a greater threat?

Doubly besides, Bush* would want to advertise his destruction so he could get more cowards like Kahdaffi to kneel before him. (cowards for supporting terrorism and cowards for not being honorable enough to stand up to a bully, possibly even a fascist bully given *'s own comments in the past and actions of today.)

[shawn703]

89. Tom Bearden describes how a Tesla Howitzer works

"Here's how you initiate a very large earthquake with such weapons. Take a convenient fault zone of set of them. Focus the interferometry on the fault zone, in the "diverging" mode, and deposit EM energy there in the rocks on both sides, increasing (slowly) the stress in the rocks by the reverse piezoelectric effect (deposit excess energy, get crystal mechanical movements).

"Do it slowly, and the stress will build up to large pressures well-above a plate slip minimum energy required. At some point, the rocks yield and one or both sides "slip" and move rather sharply, giving a very large earthquake in that zone.

"Do the same thing down in the earth (remember, LWs easily penetrate right through the earth and ocean at will, and so the "interference zone" focus can be inside the earth or beneath the ocean, at will.

"Anyway, focus this thing down to where the active part of the volcano is still slumbering, down where the hole in the plate has been made. Keep increasing the deposition of energy in the magma itself, and eventually the increasing pressure from deep within that volcano, underground, will cause an eruption. Build the energy slow, and the eruption will likely be much larger."

[Shrikeangel]

90. The post above is...

...gibberish, I'm sorry. I realize shawn703 is quoting someone else--someone who is speaking gibberish.

Replace "EM energy" with "earth rays" and "focus the interferometry" with "focus the chi along the ley lines" and it says exactly the same thing, i.e., nothing. There aren't any NUMBERS being supplied here, so it's not physics, it's horseshit.

[sujan]

92. blah blah blah blah blah

[corporatewhore]

93. well since earthquakes are an act of god

and we all know god loves americans the best ....

[Loonman]

95. Whatever you're smoking

Give me some.

[Abaques]

96. Thank you Silverhair....

Thanks for debunking this utterly rediculous idea.

[Blue_Chill]

99. I will second that

Thanks.

[Aries]

98. Interesting...

From: http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/doom_weapons_1.htm#_edn1...

"...the Senate report mentions Tesla’s development of a “ray gun in the 1930’s, which was actually a particle beam accelerator,” and which was said to be able to “shoot down an airplane at 200 miles.” Following Tesla’s death in 1943, the US government seized his papers and research notes, placing them under national security lock and key. An undoubted genius during his life, Tesla’s papers curiously remain highly classified today - 53 years later..."

and:


"In one experiment in 1896, Tesla accidentally triggered an earthquake across a dozen New York city blocks. This, Tesla later said, was caused “by a little piece of apparatus you could slip in your pocket.” As local police stormed his lab, the wily inventor lifted a sledge-hammer and smashed the oscillator to pieces, bringing an end to the pandemonium...."

Of course, enough earthquakes happen in Iran anyway to make proving it was the (assumed to be possible for the sake of argument) weapon that caused this one would be problematic.

[Silverhair]

100. No, not interesting. STUPID!!!!!

People who believe this crap have no conception of how huge a tectonic plate is, and what extreme energy would be needed to move a plate in the slightest. We just don't have that kind of energy.

[Aries]

104. It's really sort of entertaining to see the overreaction

and for the record I don't believe or disbelieve in this "crap", but maybe you could tell me why Bill Cohen said this (repeating an exchange from earlier in the thread which I don't think has been adequately explained):

http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/cohen-ecoweapons.htm

"...Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves.

So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important...."

I don't like Cohen much, but I've never thought of him as particularly stupid. Do you dispute the quote?

[Silverhair]

106. Most politicians and journalists are quite ignorant of the sciences. n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

107. And that includes the Secretary of Defense?

I would have thought he'd have been fully apprised of the viability of the threat of inducing earthquakes through electromagnetic waves before saying "It's real."

[Silverhair]

111. That assumption would require intelligent on that member of

the Bush team. The question answers itself.

[Shrikeangel]

114. It seems pretty clear to me...

...that in the William Cohen quote, when he says, "It's real", he's talking about the fact that people really are trying to come up with things like tectonic weaponry--not that tectonic weaponry itself is real.

Go back and read the quote in its entirety again, rather than focusing on the little snippet that you are so despreately reading out of context to bolster your point.

[Minstrel Boy]

116. your ad hominem attack aside, I agree with you

I haven't suggested that tectonic weapons have become operational and are deployed. I don't know. All I'm saying is that Cohen believes the threat they pose to be genuine.

[Shrikeangel]

126. Ad hominem attack, forsooth!

I'm responding only to the things you say right here. I know nothing about you as a person, I've never said that because of who you are, your statement has no merit. I AM characterizing your argument in a way you don't like, but that does not make it an ad hominem attack.

As for Casey, you obviously DON'T agree with me, because I am saying that when he says, "It's real", he means that the EFFORT is real, but he does not say ANYWHERE that the threat that the effort seeks to produce is credible. Merely that SOMEONE thinks enough of it to spend money on it.

The Soviet Union spent lots of money trying to turn spring wheat into winter wheat by freezing the seeds. It was NOT a credible activity. But it REALLY happened, and REALLY nothing ever came of it. But in talking of the Soviet Union's EFFORT to run their agriculture according to Lysenkoist biology, that EFFORT was real. Even though it never could have amounted to anything.

That's why I say you are taking Casey's quote out of context. He is talking, all along, of things that people are seriously interested in, and seriously trying to achieve, but that aren't credible. The fact that people seriously try to work on them is something that his agency had to deal with, nonetheless.

[Minstrel Boy]

137. If Cohen thought that the pursuit of such exotic weapons lacked merit,

he would not have voiced concern that they were sought by potential enemies of the United States. In fact, he would welcome it, as it would drain resources from more credible research.

[Shrikeangel]

138. That's really a lot...

... to pull out of the two words, "It's real".

Since reason isn't working with you, let's try grammar. Surely if he were talking about all of the programs he listed, he would have said "They're real". If "it's real" refers to a particular threat among the several he listed, how do you know which one he meant? Why one and not all? I think my reading, merely from the standpoint of correct English, makes far more sense--that "It's real" refers to the phenomenon of people working to achieve these things.

Do you beleive that someone could really come up with viruses that target a particular race, when it is well known that there are no biological differences between them? That was on his list too, you see?

There is NOTHING in that statement that endorses the feasibility, or even theoretical possibility, of any of the things he mentioned.

But you've already made up your mind, and you are going to stick to the only two words you can find in an off-the-cuff remark made by a man twenty years dead.

Anyway, what would I know about tectonics and electromagnetic weapons? I'm just a physics grad student.

[bobthedrummer]

139. And don't forget the Soviet command economy

the bottom line is that in both US and USSR the research into exotic weapons must have had concrete results and lead to more "research" since the pick of the litter of science goes to the national defense first.

Who knows what all can be gleaned from unclassified reports and reputable sources?
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ANA309A.html

http://www.adacomp.net/~mcherney/starwars.html

http://www.raven1.net/cwrussia.htm

http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~welsh/book.htm

http://www.datafilter.com/mc/c_persingerMindnet165.htm

[Blue_Chill]

101. You left out the part where the Fantastic Four

ruined his plans for world domination.

[picus9]

119. Bovine Excrement.

[Aries]

122. Nicely argued!

In case you might be impugning Tesla's veracity or intelligence, and not that of the author of the description I quoted (I haven't looked into it enough to confirm the quote), you might want to check this out. Tesla knew a bit about science and technology, in at least one par case more than Edison himself.

I look forward to another pithy response from you...

http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_warcur.html

"In November and December of 1887, Tesla filed for seven U.S. patents in the field of polyphase AC motors and power transmission. These comprised a complete system of generators, transformers, transmission lines, motors and lighting. So original were the ideas that they were issued without a successful challenge, and would turn out to be the most valuable patents since the telephone.

[Shrikeangel]

127. Tesla's notes and papers...

...were NOT seized by the Federal Government. They were seized by the Office of Alien Property, and in the possession of the City of New York, who later turned them over to Yugoslavia in 1952. The "death ray" which Tesla had in the depository of the Governor Clinton Hotel was a decade resistance box, a common piece of laboratory equipment.

The raving nutsoids like to say that stuff was stolen by Federal agents, but they have no evidence for that.

And he never caused any earthquakes or invented death-rays, regardless of what he may have said. There is not one shred of evidence ever presented that vouches for these claims.

Not one.

[noonwitch]

103. There are a lot of fault lines in Iran.

They said on the news that there are two large ones in the area this quake hit.

Those poor people. So many died.

[shawn703]

105. Sorry for posting this

In a way I feel like I accomplished something by posting a question that generated so many responses. I'll admit that part of my motive was meant to increase anti-Bush sentiment (similar to the Clinton-murder stories we kept hearing about from the Republicans years ago, that I'm sure some people actually believed. I still remember my grandmother showing me some silly tape she got from a friend in the Michigan Militia illustrating how Clinton was some big crime-lord in Arkansas.) However I realized the hurling of insults back and forth between fellow DU'ers isn't productive to what we're trying to accomplish collectively, so I apologize.

Hope you all can forgive my moment of immaturity!



(I actually just tried to edit the original message to say Please Delete, unfortunately it looks like my editing time has expired...)

[RBHam]

109. Actually...

It's been quite revealing.

I don't believe any weapons research has SUCCEEDED in these space age ideas that William Cohen and many other officials all over the world have openly discussed.

But then again, with the incredible secrecy that surrounds the Military Industrial Complex and the officially acknowledged 3.2 trillion dollars unaccounted for by the Pentagon - written off as "Black Operations" - how the hell would we ever know if they did?

However - it's time to turn to more important things.

Like getting someone you can trust back in power, holding those who created this mess accountable, and finally rein in the domestic Fascist elements who use the canard of "national security" to pursue their own agenda.

Oh. And take back the media.
http://www.takebackthemedia.com /

[salin]

110. What is significant - in my mind... is the level of cynicism

this administration has brought to a broad cross-section of people. In the past only the few would even consider such a thing. Now more people are likely to have the fleeting thought - where before it wouldn't even mentally occur.

To me - given this is an area prone to quakes - and the technological discussion on this board - no - not likely at all. And in this case the thought didn't run through my head.

But I do find it noteworthy that more and more people initially entertain these thoughts - as it is to me a sign of such mistrust - a belieft that this administration knows no boundaries (one borne out of several incidents that give this impression) - that people who used to be more skeptical of such random musing - are actual entertaining (even if quickly dismissing it) the musing. THAT I find interesting. I seriously doubt that this discussion would have gone on so long under the first bush administration. While that was not a noble or great administration - things have changed drastically since then.

[Silverhair]

112. An interesting observation indeed. Unfortunately, I remember

a time when the same kind of paranoia and suspicion was rampant. The internet wasn't around, so the rumors and fears had to be spread word of mouth, and by undergoudn newspapers of the period. I was a skeptical debunker, even then. One laughable rumor that comes to mind from the period was that the New York City gov't was buying a bunch of WWII P-51's, fully armed, and retrofitting them with turbine engines, for crowd control. Rumors of martial law being declared before the next POTUS election so the Republican POTUS would not have to take a change on being defeated were rife. Some activists were handing out phamplets on what to do if you were questioned by the FBI. We were all told to assume that I phones were tapped by the gov't.

The year was 1972. Deja vu anybody?

[salin]

113. Interesting indeed

yes deja vu. And on some levels this administration mirrors that administration in the level of distrust engendered by nonsupporters.

[Shrikeangel]

115. Yes, indeed it is interesting...

...that you apparently think the fact that some of our less sane DUers are prone to mindless conspiracy mongering is somehow Bush's fault. Which is itself mindless-conspiracy mongering, much that some Republicans would engage in when Clinton was President. They said the same thing--it was Clinton's fault for inspiring the mistrust, not their own fault for being credulous lunatics. They were wrong to think so and you are wrong now.

Bush is not going to be defeated by crap like this. You want to beat him, you have to do it in the real world, not on the astral plane using tectonic weapons the plans for which were smuggled out of Vince Foster's office and buried on the grassy knoll.

[salin]

123. Interesting

I didn't comment on the conspiracy theory - except to state that I didn't buy it at all - but that I have noticed an increasing number of folks even briefly entertaining such thoughts. Its called observation. No where do I ever suggest that this has anything to do with campaign strategy. I also believe that it is not within my ability to stifle other peoples' first amendment rights to express what is on their mind - and that to try to do so on a public message board is probably futile. Further more, I do have questions with the ways this administration has chosen to operate on a number of issues and to some folks - even wondering about them (such as the Cheney energy task force meetings and content) is considered to be 'conspiratorial'. So who am I to judge others. Instead - I just comment and give an observation based on watching such conversations over a two year period.

What is interesting to me, is that of all of the discussions about the 'conspiracy thoughts' on this thread - that you would chose to berate the one that isn't at all about the content, or about political strategy but is a simple observation of change in dynamics of such discussions over time.

[Shrikeangel]

125. First Amendment rights...

do not protect you from criticism, as you apparently think they do. You want to say conspiracy theories are understandable, given the shadiness of Bush? You have every right to say this, and I have every right to call you a moron.

It's rather silly of you to bring up First Amendment issues, when the sign out front of THIS one says "if you think Bush is doing a good job, you will probably be banned".

You're ALREADY posting on a message board that only allows certain types of opinion to be expressed, and then complain that when I criticize you I'm violating your rights?

You don't have any rights to say what you want on someone else's message board, and your First Amendment rights are NOT violated when someone else uses THEIR First Amendement rights to criticize something you say.

[salin]

132. Again I didn't say anything of the sort

I said that I have observed an increasing number of folks entertaining such theories - even for a blush of a moment.

I found the where the criticism fell on the thread to be interesting.

The first amendment point - came at what - I admit was my speculation as to the point of the rant - was a frustration at conspiracy theories as it relates to the election - and was stating that I wasn't commenting on the theories - just noting a change in behavior when said theories are floated. But that even if I found some theories out-there and perhaps counter productive in the larger public mind - that I didn't think that it was upon me to try to censor folks from stating those theories.

Was not discussing the policies of the board (and private entities have that right) as much as the tendency of some to view the expression of these types of sentiments (the conspiracies) as something to be stifled as they "make us look bad" - and my belief that attempting to stifle - right or wrong - is futile. So perhaps I should have used the word "stifle" rather than censor.

[picus9]

131. Gee, Mister y'all sure do spin a good yarn n'all.

[Silverhair]

145. Is simply calling me a liar the best you can do for reasoning

ability? I remember '72, I was there. The crazy rumors didn't circulate throught the general college population, but instead circulated with the activists. If a person wasn't part of the leftist movement back then, they probably didn't hear any of that stuff.

[VegasVixen]

135. well said...

very eloquent points! I totally agree with you. If I hadn't seen the movie Conspiracy Theory I don't think I would have given the recent earthquake in Iran a second thought. But life imitates art, and we know this administration just does whatever the heck they want anyways ...

[FDRrocks]

141. And they can turn around and use the cynicism against the cynics.

"Look at how idiotic and paranoid they are!", and then attribute that particular incident as a stereotype of a whole group, such as liberals.

[picus9]

118. If it's on the Third World Network it has to be true.

Not.