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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 11:27 PM
Original message
The latest wave of DU defeatism/negativism unsupported by the facts
Get over it. These posts are self-destructive or are just Rovian propaganda to destroy our morale and divide us.

These are the facts:
BUSH IS TOASTING AND NOTHING WILL PULL HIM OUT OF THE TOASTER



















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nemo137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. do you have a date on the newsweek reelect poll?
also, reagan got voted higher than FDR?! :wtf:

good post, thanks.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. The latest Newsweek Poll..
Newsweek Poll conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Nov. 6-7, 2003. N=809 registered voters nationwide. MoE 4 (total sample).

"In general, would you like to see George W. Bush reelected to another term as president, or not?"

........Yes No Don'tKnow
ALL.... 44 50 6

Men.....45 51 4
Women...42 51 7

Repub...86 10 4
Dems....10 86 4
Indep...40 53 7

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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. thanks for that
a year is a long time in politics, some on this site need to chill out and grow a backbone.

think how we felt a yr. ago from today - with the new repub. victories at the mid-term and a coming war...those were the real dark days...

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JustJoe Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. Call 'em "Jelly Legs" ...
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
5. I'm sad to see FDR drop below Reagan. His legacy is fading.....and Medicar
and Social Security Reform are all because no one remembers what he did.

Repugs have been so sucessful at rehabilitating "St. Ronnie" that he now towers over FDR. That's very depressing.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. FDR's Image, if Not his Legacy, Should Fade A Bunch Because of LIHOP
FDR Let It Happen On Purpose at Pearl Harbor.
He should have made the case for war honestly.
Instead he sacrificed the lives of our sailors
by allowing them to be killed in a "sneak attack",
after which it was dead easy to take the country to war.

Bush* LIHOP (or MIHOP) on 9/11. Many of us believe he
should be impeached for that (and many other crimes).
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. Unlikely
There's no convincing evidence of an FDR LIHOP, and the theory isn't really taken seriously by most historians.
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NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. thanks for putting those together
You are a gem, truth.




Cher

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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
7. wow. thanks. wonder what the "media" makes of this
they're gonna look at this and realize they're not doing their job of cheerleading for Shrub well enough.

My main problem is the media. I think if we had a media actually dedicated to telling the truth, that Bush probably wouldn't even survive to the elections.

But the media is out-of-control pro-Bush. To a point where I feel like I'm living in some kind of bad dream.

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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks TruthIsAll
Much needed lifter upper :hi:

My poem of inspiration has been included in my sigline :D
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Forget Washington we should march on Fox and CNN's HeadQuaters
How would they explain 80,000 people protesting them! Lying Fuckers
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. Thank You, Sir
People do need to keep a grip on their nerves.
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
13. Gore won the popular vote
Bush* didn't...

I don't know of one person that voted for Gore that is now supporting Bush*. Do you? nor do I know of any Green that is now supporting Bush*

this means we have at least the same number of votes going to someone other than Bush

add to that the number of people that DID vote for Bush*, but no longer support him nor would vote for him again

I know that there are some out there that DON'T Support Bush, and their vote hinges on who the DEM candidate will be...



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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
14. Medicare Reform will strangle the bastard in 2004
Lucky for our nation the older generation is still intelligent enough to ask questions...and that Medicare Bill is absolutely worthless to the elderly. The Elderly wanted help without extra cost since people on fixed incomes don't need higher costs... I see the Medicare "reform" as a nail in the bastard's coffin....
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
15. Sometimes being around a bunch of liberals isn't good for me.
I am labeled as a liberal by virtually any measure so don't take this as criticism from a centrist or conservative Democrat.

We as liberals have a natural tendancy to look for flaws because we want to make people's lives better. However, such a tendancy also leads to a negative view of current conditions, sometimes warranted and sometimes not. Unfortuanately, many of us have let this spill over into our hopes of beating Bush. This should not be. He is hardly invincible as poll numbers have shown. He is trailing in a key battleground state like Iowa which is paying a great deal of attention to the presidential campaign. This is a sign of things to come. As more states pay attention, our numbers will improve.
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
16. negativism, sure; defeatism, no!
There is plenty to be negative about, and an honest look at the world should reveal that not everything is peachy keen, and in fact some things are quite bad.

Despair, though, is a trap, a kind of mirror of the absolutist righteousness that God belongs to one's political party. There's work to do no matter who or what holds the reins of power.

Be negative or positive as the facts warrant, but resist defeatism.

:thumbsup:
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
17. Thanks for the pep-talk, but . .
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 11:24 AM by msmcghee
. . what you call defeatism and negativism . . is also realism, depending on one's perspective.

I think it is good that some DU members feel free to post their fears and worries, here among friends, when they have them. Show them the good news - as you are doing here - but when you criticize them for posting their fears - I think you may be sending the stronger message of your fear that they may be right.

*********************************

i.e. instead of saying "You are foolish and hurting our cause to bring up your negative feelings here - and here are the charts to prove you are wrong."

How about "Yes, friend, I feel the same way at times - but that will pass. There is no guarantee in life that the good guys always win. But we do get to pick which side we're on. While we carry on that good fight together - here's some positive news for you."

**************************************

I don't mean to be critical of your purpose. I know you have the best intentions. :)
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JPace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. "Thanks for the pep-talk, but . ."
"I think it is good that some DU members feel free to post their fears and worries, here among friends"

Thanks for your generous insights!

One of the best parts of finding DU was that
there was finally a place where my feelings
over losing to smirkboy could be expressed and
understood. I don't recall the DU rules saying
that one should always put on a display of
bravado no matter what. Most have their days
of being up and some of being down, if some
prefer to be stoic at all times than more
power to them, but for those of us who need
to vent some disappointment at times DU is
for them also. I think its called democracy,
room for all to be heard. I don't go to repug
sites to see what garbage they are posting
about us, if I want to get the republican
view all I have to do is turn on the news or
read a newspaper. I want the Democratic view
and so I come here. Sometimes feeling down is
far more realistic and appropriate then faking
being up. It does not mean I or others are
stripped of our hope or courage.
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
18. you got a lotta gall telling me my personal analysis is self destructive
i dont know who the fuck you think you are when you accuse others of defeatism or dirty tricks when coming to different conclusions upon examining the available data.

pollyanna postivism is about the most stupid thing that the democrats can do this next 12 months.

democrats are in disarray, there is no defining philosophy.

the GOP has a quarter billion dollars to flood the airwaves come next fall.

the mass media is directed by ensuring that the dominant narrative dovetail with corporate and GOP concerns.

the vaunted grass roots the dems boast about as their over-riding advantage is effectively being countered by a like grass roots network on the Right, and which has issues that activate their base greater than the left's.

i like a good fight too, but i'm not stupid enough to pick a fight on terms i can't win, and i'm not about to use rhetorical devises that have no affect.

the busheviks hold the high cards, and absent a dramatic increase in violence in iraq, a devastaing terrorist attack on US soil, or an economic disaster, bush will carry the day next november.

i am not a defeatist, i am not a minion of karl rove. i am looking at the date objectively, using history as a lens, and dont see how in the hell the democrats can win to white house in 2004.

the democratic party will have to initiate massive energy to activate its base, spend millions on grass roots organization, have the complete backing of labor and the unions' rank and file to particpate in the campaign, and have a leader who will bring all the disparate parts of the party together.

i see no candidate doing it, at least not one who can serve as president viz., bill clinton.

the day where a person who believes in dealing with political realities instead of working from wishful thinking is considered a defeatist is the day when the lunatics take over the asylum.
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BigBigBigBear Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Without the polemics
I tend to agree. Poll numbers a year out don't mean much.

"Big village. Come quick. Bring packs."
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. I like to get hysterical some times too
to work out the kinks. Then when I'm hysterical
and the sky is falling and I'm sqwuaking like a magpie,
somebody will say hey you're all hysterical, and then
I get even more hystericaler. And then in the morning
I'm O-KAY. So you go girl. It cleans the pipes out.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. I Agree With Much Of Your Analysis
but three phenomenons make me pause....

1) By any calculus Gore should have won despite his "personality" and Monica but he lost even though he was running as the v p of an administration that had given us peace and prosperity.....

2) If Bush wins the same %of votes from the racial groups he won in 00 he'll lose the election by 3,000,000 votes.....


3) Why would a Gore or Nader voter vote for Bush in 04....


These three phenomenons give me pause...
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. My response to your three statements.
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 07:38 PM by TruthIsAll
You say:
but three phenomenons make me pause....

1) By any calculus Gore should have won despite his "personality" and Monica but he lost even though he was running as the v p of an administration that had given us peace and prosperity.....

I say:
Gore did not lose. It was stolen from him and us. He won Florida by at least 50,000 votes. He won the popular vote by at least 600,000 votes. But, yes, he should have won by at least 6 million votes.

2) If Bush wins the same %of votes from the racial groups he won in 00 he'll lose the election by 3,000,000 votes.....

I disagree. He will lose by 6 million or more - because the Dems will be energized as never before - and so will a lot of moderate, sensible Repubs who can't stand Bush. There is much anecdotal evidence that they have either decided to sit it out or vote Dem.

3) Why would a Gore or Nader voter vote for Bush in 04....

I agree. I cannot imagine it, either. But of course there will be a few, just a few, ignoramuses who will do just that.

But there will be at least 2 million Bush voters (4%) who will switch to the Dem.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. Realists are fully aware who controls the most of the media.
.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
19. WOW!!! His disapproval rate is about 50%
Has anyone ever been returned to office with a disapproval rating like that?

Does anyone know?
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Black box voting covers the defecit of defeat. Victory is borrowed again.
Deep feelings are in order. Get in touch with them.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. Stick a fork in him. He's done!
*'s latest aircraft stunt was simply an act of desperation. Yeah, the media whores are playing into the propaganda big time, but there are human beings, including American G.I.s, dying daily over there. Cute little sleights of hand, transparently enacte, and at great taxpayer expense btw, to prop up what amounts increasingly to an obviously naked emperor, won't stop the carnage. Rove's ploy will backfire big time, inho.
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. Looks like Bush needs another 9-11 to exploit...
Or fixed voting machines...

Other than that, I can't see him getting another term.


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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. Defeatism/negativism
I know for a fact that there are several freepers on this site (including some with 1000+ posts) who are here for the sole purpose of demoralizing us and spreading false rumors. They've openly discussed this over at FR.

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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
27. I have to think positively, or..
I'd really get depressed.

I'm a Kucinich supporter and feel that since he got elected to Congress (from an area that's Democratic but not one of the most liberal,) it's worth the effort to get him into the mainstream. And all of our candidates, including Lieberman, are far better than Bush.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. We have the Chimp on the run...n/t
.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
32. We have the Chimp on the run...n/t
.
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
33. Interesting tidbits.
reagan as number 3 and FDR as 4, WTF. People really have no understanding of history in this country do they?
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