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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:37 PM
Original message
Poll question: The Paul Wellstone crash was.....

Poll result (526 votes)
An Unfortanate Accident (147 votes, 28%)Vote
Planned and Executed by the Bush Adminstration or by someone who wanted to see Wellstone dead (304 votes, 58%)Vote
Undecided (75 votes, 14%)Vote
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   Replies to this thread
  - an unfortunate accident planned by the bush regime  DuctapeFatwa   Oct-20-03 01:40 PM   #1 
  - It's either one or the other  VermontDem2004   Oct-20-03 01:41 PM   #2 
     - You gotta think big tent  DuctapeFatwa   Oct-20-03 01:44 PM   #7 
        - LOL  9215   Oct-20-03 01:47 PM   #9 
        - ok  VermontDem2004   Oct-20-03 01:53 PM   #20 
        - You sayng the US govt is incapable of planning an unfortunate accident?  DuctapeFatwa   Oct-20-03 02:40 PM   #59 
        - some people just hate thinking "outside the box"  Cheswick   Oct-20-03 03:35 PM   #85 
        - #2 - Think President Wellstone  Zorra   Oct-20-03 08:45 PM   #142 
        - beautiful!  0007   Oct-22-03 06:59 AM   #348 
  - On SFGate.com  theivoryqueen   Oct-20-03 01:41 PM   #3 
  - Foil-hatters  birdman   Oct-20-03 01:41 PM   #4 
  - Funny!  theivoryqueen   Oct-20-03 01:57 PM   #26 
  - and  ArkDem   Oct-20-03 02:53 PM   #67 
  - I have nothing to base my suspicion on, I just never believed it  lindashaw   Oct-20-03 01:41 PM   #5 
  - To clarify  tridim   Oct-20-03 01:45 PM   #8 
     - Could it be...  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 01:48 PM   #10 
     - Exactly  birdman   Oct-20-03 01:53 PM   #21 
     - You forgot  VermontDem2004   Oct-20-03 01:55 PM   #22 
     - and  Yupster   Oct-20-03 03:49 PM   #95 
     - Oh no ! Bush whacked the Big Fucking Bopper  birdman   Oct-20-03 04:53 PM   #109 
        - Don't forget ELVIS!  AquariDem   Oct-20-03 05:28 PM   #116 
     - Yep, it was utterly probable that Wellstone would die in a ridiculously  stickdog   Oct-21-03 02:40 PM   #174 
        - Oh, PUH-leeze!  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 03:58 PM   #219 
           - Nice argument.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:14 PM   #230 
     - I think that is  in_cog_ni_to   Oct-20-03 01:56 PM   # 
     - so-so saftey record?  BikeDeck   Oct-20-03 02:06 PM   #33 
        - Much, *MUCH* higher than for commercial aviation. n/t  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 02:19 PM   #43 
        - Much Much higher  BikeDeck   Oct-20-03 02:24 PM   #46 
        - Okee dokee  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 02:43 PM   #60 
           - I would look at it slightly different  BikeDeck   Oct-20-03 02:57 PM   #68 
        - And the safety record of the King Air A-100 specifically?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 02:43 PM   #175 
           - Have NONE of them ever crashed? n/t  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 03:59 PM   #220 
              - Very few.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:13 PM   #229 
                 - Wait!  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:39 PM   #242 
                 - Lame appeal to ridicule.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:42 PM   #244 
                 - I did  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 05:35 PM   #270 
                    - And EIGHT of those fifteen died in Wellstone's crash!  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:04 PM   #288 
                       - 8 people, one crash, 8 dead.  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 06:07 PM   #291 
                          - Way to go! Lame appeals to ridicule suit you so well. (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:10 PM   #294 
                             - It's all anyone, including YOU, 'knows'!  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 06:18 PM   #299 
                                - Straw man.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:36 PM   #310 
                                   - Ummm  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 06:47 PM   #314 
                                      - I mentioned a radio beacon (VOR) as a possible explanation for how  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:55 PM   #316 
                                         - no, I don't need any 'stinking explanations'---  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 07:03 PM   #320 
                                            - Logic 101 Quiz: You say it must have been an accident.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 07:11 PM   #322 
                                               - Logic 101-A: *You* do  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 07:16 PM   #323 
                                               - Proof? (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 07:20 PM   #324 
                                               - So obvious I won't waste time.  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 07:23 PM   #326 
                                               - And your proof for this assertion is?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 07:21 PM   #325 
                                               - It's a *fact*, not an 'assertion'  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 07:41 PM   #329 
                                               - It's not a fact. The subset of analogous deaths is too small and the  stickdog   Oct-22-03 10:09 AM   #358 
                                               - Stop your sophistry  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 12:03 PM   #362 
                                               - Forgive him, father, for he knows not what he says ... (NT)  stickdog   Oct-22-03 01:38 PM   #378 
        - We have lots of them crash out here in W Texas  Yupster   Oct-20-03 03:54 PM   #96 
     - Well, let's see, over the years there have been several  SharonAnn   Oct-20-03 01:50 PM   #15 
     - Didn't a congresscritter from Texas  Yupster   Oct-20-03 03:56 PM   #97 
     - and further  9215   Oct-20-03 01:50 PM   #17 
        - Is that why Bush tried to make Tower  birdman   Oct-20-03 01:56 PM   #25 
           - Google "Tower Commission"  9215   Oct-20-03 08:12 PM   #135 
  - Oh dear...  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 01:43 PM   #6 
  - Why am I not surprised that a Clark loving Dean supporter would be  stickdog   Oct-21-03 02:46 PM   #176 
     - Once again, the rules prevent me from posting an appropriate reply  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:54 PM   #254 
        - Why not just try another lame appeal to ridicule?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:12 PM   #260 
           - Shoo!  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 05:15 PM   #262 
              - Answering you within a single thread is stalking?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:35 PM   #269 
                 - Convenient how you forget about the other day... n/t  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 05:38 PM   #271 
                    - What about the "other day"?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:59 PM   #287 
  - other: a sad day and an abyss of sorrow  JohnKleeb   Oct-20-03 01:48 PM   #11 
  - I echo that n/t  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 01:49 PM   #13 
     - The good always die before their time for the most part and before they  JohnKleeb   Oct-20-03 01:52 PM   #18 
        - Yeah. RFK also had an unfortunate accident. (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 02:48 PM   #177 
  - Sure funny how many small planes have crashed over the years....  AntiCoup2k   Oct-20-03 01:49 PM   #12 
  - Small Aircraft Crash At a Higher Rate Because Most are Piloted  mhr   Oct-20-03 01:55 PM   #23 
     - An anecdote:  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 01:59 PM   #27 
        - It Takes A Disciplined Pilot To Tell a Customer No  mhr   Oct-20-03 02:03 PM   #29 
        - Both Paul and Sheila Wellstone were afraid of flying  dflprincess   Oct-20-03 08:16 PM   #138 
        - You are ignorant. Wellstone's pilot had another pilot convince Wellstone  stickdog   Oct-21-03 02:51 PM   #179 
        - I watched coverage of the accident  VermontDem2004   Oct-20-03 02:04 PM   #31 
        - the weather in Minnesota in late October  MrsMatt   Oct-20-03 08:10 PM   #134 
           - Because you haven't investigated the accident.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 02:49 PM   #178 
              - And you have  MrsMatt   Oct-22-03 01:46 PM   #380 
        - Pilot  TKP   Oct-20-03 03:20 PM   #79 
           - You are ignorant. Wellstone's pilot was NOT going to fly into Duluth  stickdog   Oct-21-03 02:55 PM   #180 
              - dork  TKP   Oct-22-03 03:53 PM   #435 
                 - Except the weather didn't change drastically that day.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:58 PM   #439 
  - Don't forget Mel Carnahan's death  Wwagsthedog   Oct-20-03 01:49 PM   #14 
  - Ashcroft also benefited from another dems death in 1976.  9215   Oct-22-03 11:56 AM   #361 
  - I Am a Commercial Pilot And Would Love To Believe Bush Did It  mhr   Oct-20-03 01:50 PM   #16 
  - As I'm not myself a pilot,  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 02:16 PM   #40 
  - Stall Speed Increases With Accumulated Wing Ice  mhr   Oct-20-03 02:24 PM   #45 
  - There WAS NO FUCKING ICE.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:04 PM   #183 
     - Then Why Did the NTSB List Icing As a Possible Contributing Factor?  mhr   Oct-21-03 06:19 PM   #300 
        - Because anything's possible?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:25 PM   #304 
  - Stalls  TKP   Oct-20-03 03:30 PM   #81 
  - My guess is the cause was  Yupster   Oct-20-03 04:00 PM   #100 
     - And weather sure wasn't the major factor because the weather was just  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:06 PM   #184 
  - The plane was more than 40 mph under the recommended approach speed!  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:01 PM   #181 
  - liberals and leftists are just "accident prone" I guess...  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 01:53 PM   #19 
  - General-aviation fatalities in 2002:  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 01:55 PM   #24 
  - True  VermontDem2004   Oct-20-03 02:02 PM   #28 
  - the opposite is also true  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 02:04 PM   #30 
  - I am undecided  VermontDem2004   Oct-20-03 02:05 PM   #32 
     - I don't disagree  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 02:08 PM   #35 
        - OK how many congressmen or Senators  Corgigal   Oct-20-03 04:36 PM   #106 
           - I don't know, tbh.  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 07:16 PM   #121 
  - When The Aircraft Crashed, The Engines Were Running And  mhr   Oct-20-03 02:10 PM   #37 
  - There is no evidence to support any conclusion.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:11 PM   #185 
     - Aircraft Of This Type ARE NOT REQUIRED TO HAVE CVR, CDR  mhr   Oct-21-03 06:17 PM   #298 
        - You are correct that they are not required.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:38 PM   #311 
  - That is true  Yupster   Oct-20-03 04:03 PM   #101 
  - "People die in plane crashes every day..."  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 02:07 PM   #34 
  - In the abscence of proof...  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 02:10 PM   #38 
  - Why? Where is the proof that it was an accident?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:15 PM   #186 
     - *No* proof?  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:01 PM   #222 
        - Highly safe plane, fine weather, unexplained off course turning,  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:25 PM   #233 
           - Why do you persist in your denial about the weather.  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:34 PM   #239 
              - Above freezing, no wind, 3-4 miles visibility, trace fog.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:47 PM   #248 
                 - You are simply FACTUALLY wrong....  Jakey   Oct-21-03 05:29 PM   #266 
                    - Yes, I failed to mention the one factor that COULD possibly have  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:39 PM   #272 
                    - Oh no, he's *never* wrong  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 05:39 PM   #273 
                       - Jakey is a fine steward of the facts. As for you,  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:42 PM   #276 
  - Maybe Democrats Perish In Aircraft Accidents More Often Because  mhr   Oct-20-03 02:15 PM   #39 
  - Maybe, but Wellstone's King Air A100  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 02:18 PM   #41 
     - That's Not The Point  mhr   Oct-20-03 02:32 PM   #51 
     - Wellstone's plane had two pilots,  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 02:45 PM   #62 
     - If You Want To Counter The Facts And Believe a Myth, Fine  mhr   Oct-20-03 02:47 PM   #63 
        - If you want to believe something without any evidence or explantion, fine.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:26 PM   #193 
     - Murder happens, too.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:16 PM   #187 
     - But the primary pilot  MrsMatt   Oct-20-03 08:16 PM   #137 
  - I wonder if Republican congresscritters  Yupster   Oct-20-03 04:04 PM   #102 
  - How many of these casualties were in King Air A-100s?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:03 PM   #182 
     - 15  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 05:46 PM   #278 
        - 8 of these 15 died in the Wellstone crash.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:06 PM   #290 
           - Once again, 3rd-grade math wasn't wasted on you! n/t  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 06:20 PM   #302 
              - Too bad I can't say the same for you and Logic 101. (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:29 PM   #306 
                 - If I'd seen you use any, i might be wounded by your reply.  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 06:31 PM   #307 
  - Let us also not forget  BikeDeck   Oct-20-03 02:09 PM   #36 
  - What the FUCK is this supposed to mean?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:20 PM   #189 
     - What does it mean?  BikeDeck   Oct-21-03 03:27 PM   #194 
        - Every event "contributes" to every subsequent event in this way.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:32 PM   #199 
           - no  BikeDeck   Oct-21-03 03:34 PM   #201 
           - Never forget  BikeDeck   Oct-21-03 03:46 PM   #210 
  - As is well-known but not commonly acknowledged  birdman   Oct-20-03 02:19 PM   #42 
  - Appeal to ridicule. (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:27 PM   #195 
  - Oh dear God!!!!  Perky   Oct-20-03 02:22 PM   #44 
  - Yes. Because Vince Foster was killed mysteriously, we must never  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:36 PM   #202 
     - Vince Foster blew his own brains out! n/t  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:04 PM   #224 
        - Yes. Because Kenneth Starr said so, it must be true. (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:27 PM   #234 
           - No  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:31 PM   #237 
              - Yep, just like Enron's J. Clifford Baxter ...  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:14 PM   #261 
                 - Let's not forget Elvis  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 05:29 PM   #265 
                    - What about Elvis' death was less than self-evident? (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:41 PM   #274 
                       - What is not self-evident about the Wellstone crash? n/t  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 05:49 PM   #279 
                          - Let's see.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:09 PM   #293 
                             - let's see  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 06:13 PM   #295 
                                - Yep. Because you say so.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:28 PM   #305 
                                   - Need it to wash down your Thorazine and Haldol? n/t  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 06:32 PM   #308 
  - You gotta be kidding  Loyal   Oct-20-03 02:26 PM   #47 
  - Yankees suck  Perky   Oct-20-03 02:29 PM   #49 
     - Don't you realize that the Bushes assasinated  birdman   Oct-20-03 02:34 PM   #53 
     - David Letterman joke  Yupster   Oct-20-03 04:07 PM   #103 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-20-03 02:28 PM   #48 
  - ALL "Conspiracy Theories"?  Bridget Burke   Oct-20-03 02:44 PM   #61 
  - The Paul Wellstone crash was not an accident  Pastiche423   Oct-20-03 02:32 PM   #50 
  - This Proves Nothing, It Is Only An Opinion  mhr   Oct-20-03 02:33 PM   #52 
  - Was what happened to Paul  Pastiche423   Oct-20-03 02:39 PM   #55 
  - Look at this from May 25, 2001:  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 02:36 PM   #54 
     - This Can Hardly Be Called a Serious Source  mhr   Oct-20-03 02:40 PM   #56 
  - Jesus Christ, people...  DealsGapRider   Oct-20-03 02:40 PM   #57 
  - I can't believe the results of poll - you guys are embarassing me  Selwynn   Oct-20-03 02:40 PM   #58 
  - The RW already thinks most of us are wack jobs  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 02:48 PM   #64 
  - No shit.  DealsGapRider   Oct-20-03 02:51 PM   #66 
  - Wow! Not another "rational" coincidence theorist! (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:33 PM   #200 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-21-03 03:28 PM   #197 
     - The new rules prevent me from making the reply your post deserves!  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:17 PM   #232 
  - It's not just us. Members of Congress  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 02:49 PM   #65 
  - Michael Ruppert  birdman   Oct-20-03 02:58 PM   #69 
  - we have all wondered from time to time  newsjunkie   Oct-20-03 02:59 PM   #70 
  - A fellow Minnesotan thinks otherwise  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 03:01 PM   #71 
     - The weather cleared after the pilot made that statement  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 03:11 PM   #75 
     - Why ignore what Oberman said?  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 03:19 PM   #78 
        - I was merely correcting the misperception  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 03:30 PM   #82 
           - There was no misperception  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 03:34 PM   #84 
     - Read the NTSB report. The pilot was talking about conditions in DULUTH  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:03 PM   #257 
        - I bet the other pilot was in on the conspiracy  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 05:31 PM   #267 
           - Straw man.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:50 PM   #280 
              - Wrong, my lil' buckaroo!  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 05:55 PM   #282 
                 - Your whole purpose here is obvious  9215   Oct-21-03 09:25 PM   #337 
                    - Get your facts straight  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 04:54 AM   #346 
                       - Using the conspiracy theory to justify the conspiracy theory  birdman   Oct-22-03 05:03 AM   #347 
                          - Mmmm hmmm...  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 07:22 AM   #349 
  - Does anyone have a single shred  Pastiche423   Oct-20-03 03:01 PM   #72 
  - That's nonsensical  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 03:06 PM   #73 
     - The burden of proof is on the conspiratorials  birdman   Oct-20-03 03:10 PM   #74 
     - Ain't that the truth? n/t  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 03:11 PM   #76 
        - He means those accusing of a conspiracy must prove it.  Selwynn   Oct-20-03 03:35 PM   #86 
           - They would, if they could  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 03:38 PM   #88 
              - What is sad it that your mindset that all mysterious plane crashes MUST  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:41 PM   #204 
                 - care to *prove* that statement? n/t  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 03:51 PM   #213 
                    - It's never happened in Africa or Indonesia or the USSR.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:54 PM   #215 
                       - Do you need the word 'proof' defined for you?  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:06 PM   #225 
                          - Can you prove that you are really a Dean supporter? (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:29 PM   #235 
     - See post #58  Pastiche423   Oct-20-03 03:14 PM   #77 
     - Post #58 says:  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 03:21 PM   #80 
        - By pointing out truth in the midst of what I guess are a bunch of wackos  Selwynn   Oct-20-03 03:34 PM   #83 
           - Yep  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 03:36 PM   #87 
           - us wackos also know of a Salem Bin Laden  VermontDem2004   Oct-20-03 03:40 PM   #91 
           - OK  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 03:46 PM   #94 
              - Dude they're in on it too don't you know?  Selwynn   Oct-20-03 07:23 PM   #126 
                 - Appeal to ridicule (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:44 PM   #208 
           - Spoken like a true Clarkie  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:43 PM   #207 
     - LOL - learn what proving a negative means  Selwynn   Oct-20-03 03:38 PM   #89 
        - Wait... am I misunderstanding you?  Selwynn   Oct-20-03 03:40 PM   #90 
        - Yes, you're misunderstanding me  Padraig18   Oct-20-03 03:44 PM   #93 
           - Well, in the words of Jack Nicholson....  Selwynn   Oct-20-03 07:18 PM   #122 
        - Asking for proof it was an accident is NOT proving a negative.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:45 PM   #209 
  - It's an OPINION POLL, not a fucking grand jury indictment  0rganism   Oct-20-03 07:21 PM   #124 
  - Yet you believe it was an accident without any explanation.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:18 PM   #188 
     - The "explanation" that matters....  Jakey   Oct-21-03 03:26 PM   #191 
        - Really?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:47 PM   #211 
           - It seems that I read...  Jakey   Oct-21-03 03:49 PM   #212 
  - The right question to ask, still theoretical  JackRiddler   Oct-20-03 03:42 PM   #92 
  - excellent post  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 03:59 PM   #99 
  - Must Take Eception - As a Pilot, There is No Credible Evidence  mhr   Oct-20-03 05:17 PM   #115 
  - You're answering as a pilot,  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 07:54 PM   #132 
  - They set up a stronger VOR beacon in the woods to draw the plane  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:53 PM   #214 
     - *proof*?  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 03:56 PM   #218 
        - There is no proof either way. I was just countering the claim that  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:31 PM   #236 
           - In the absence of any factual evidence of this 'theory'  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:43 PM   #245 
              - Like your accident theory? (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:49 PM   # 
  - The only thing that is ridiculous around here....  Selwynn   Oct-20-03 07:19 PM   #123 
     - Like the accident theory you're hyping? (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:55 PM   #216 
  - This is pretty embarrassing.  Skinner   Oct-20-03 03:58 PM   #98 
  - Admin.  TKP   Oct-20-03 04:45 PM   #108 
  - Yes we are a bunch a kooks  VermontDem2004   Oct-20-03 04:58 PM   #110 
  - Godwin's Law  theemu   Oct-20-03 09:00 PM   #145 
     - whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost  Must_B_Free   Oct-21-03 03:28 PM   #196 
  - wait a minute... the US *is* fascist :)  Selwynn   Oct-20-03 07:22 PM   #125 
  - I concur.  goobergunch   Oct-20-03 05:28 PM   #117 
  - No different than freeps blaming Clinton  AquariDem   Oct-20-03 05:32 PM   #118 
  - Not really because there is no definitive proof either way  NewYorkerfromMass   Oct-21-03 11:40 AM   #169 
  - Appeal to authority (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 03:56 PM   #217 
  - He was basically killed by McGaa...he wouldn't have had to work so hard  nothingshocksmeanymore   Oct-20-03 04:20 PM   #104 
  - I agree  Loyal   Oct-20-03 04:22 PM   #105 
  - Hi <waves>  Cheswick   Oct-20-03 04:39 PM   #107 
     - Heres why  onebigbadwulf   Oct-20-03 05:01 PM   #111 
        - Funny how they are  in_cog_ni_to   Oct-20-03 05:15 PM   #113 
           - Yes. Silly us!  VermontDem2004   Oct-20-03 05:16 PM   #114 
  - PLEASE read this article  in_cog_ni_to   Oct-20-03 05:08 PM   #112 
  - Gary Caradori  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 06:51 PM   #119 
  - I had never heard that story  in_cog_ni_to   Oct-20-03 07:36 PM   #130 
  - Kick  gully   Oct-20-03 07:14 PM   #120 
  - Thanks for This Poll!  DoveTurnedHawk   Oct-20-03 07:26 PM   #127 
  - Double or nothing  InkAddict   Oct-20-03 07:32 PM   #128 
  - This is ridiculous  NewJerseyDem   Oct-20-03 07:32 PM   #129 
  - Did you read Al Franken's book  in_cog_ni_to   Oct-20-03 07:44 PM   #131 
  - How long you been on the board?  9215   Oct-20-03 10:12 PM   #147 
  - Irrelevant - if you have credible evidence, post it now.  Selwynn   Oct-21-03 09:55 AM   #158 
     - "hard concrete evidence"?  Minstrel Boy   Oct-21-03 10:18 AM   #162 
     - Yes. I do hold everything to the standard of credible evidence....  Selwynn   Oct-22-03 03:27 PM   #416 
     - Please post your hard, concrete evidence that Wellstone's plane crashed  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:33 PM   #238 
        - The burden of proof is on you to prove a conspriacy.  Selwynn   Oct-22-03 03:28 PM   #417 
           - Bullshit. We are discussing two competing speculative theories.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:34 PM   #423 
  - Wait a minute -  bitchkitty   Oct-21-03 11:50 AM   #170 
  - your false assumptions, not mine...  JackRiddler   Oct-21-03 05:42 PM   #275 
  - This might sway your opinion on that...  Zhade   Oct-22-03 04:08 AM   #345 
  - An FBI team was  Minstrel Boy   Oct-20-03 07:56 PM   #133 
  - omg. n/t  in_cog_ni_to   Oct-20-03 08:16 PM   #136 
  - more on the FBI's arrival:  Minstrel Boy   Oct-21-03 11:53 AM   #171 
  - yoo hoo, coincidence theorists - up here.  Minstrel Boy   Oct-21-03 07:36 PM   #327 
  - HOT!!! FBI nailed for stealing evidence from WTC crime scene!!  9215   Oct-21-03 08:44 PM   #334 
     - good catch!  Minstrel Boy   Oct-21-03 09:38 PM   #338 
        - This topic is a clusterfuck!  9215   Oct-22-03 11:17 AM   #359 
  - From: "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" by Greg Palast  dflprincess   Oct-20-03 08:25 PM   #139 
  - In the end, it's a "gut" feeling  RBHam   Oct-20-03 08:28 PM   #140 
  - But the authorities ruled out foul play, and they wouldn't lie.  nu_duer   Oct-20-03 08:33 PM   #141 
  - I said undecided, though I lean towards "planned"  GOPBasher   Oct-20-03 08:47 PM   #143 
  - I really do not know  quaker bill   Oct-20-03 08:52 PM   #144 
  - Wellstone was a serious threat to Halliburton/Dresser .  9215   Oct-20-03 09:37 PM   #146 
  - The suspicion that it was an assassination  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-20-03 10:51 PM   #148 
  - "Who is this chickenshit"? Poppy on Wellstone  9215   Oct-20-03 10:51 PM   #149 
  - incredibly heartbreaking.  srpantalonas   Oct-20-03 11:12 PM   #150 
  - kicking  Minstrel Boy   Oct-21-03 07:32 AM   #151 
  - "Paul Wellstone is a hunted man"  9215   Oct-21-03 09:22 AM   #152 
  - and Rove handpicked Wellstone's opponent  9215   Oct-21-03 12:47 PM   #173 
  - i'm satisfied they were murdered  amazona   Oct-21-03 09:27 AM   #153 
  - So then all the news people  birdman   Oct-21-03 09:31 AM   #154 
     - Good question  9215   Oct-21-03 09:50 AM   #157 
     - Wolf Blitzer kept stressing weather; reporter on the scene did not:  Minstrel Boy   Oct-21-03 09:59 AM   #159 
        - Thanks, Please see my post #160  9215   Oct-21-03 10:15 AM   #161 
           - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-21-03 10:41 AM   #163 
              - Fallacy: appeal to ridicule  Minstrel Boy   Oct-21-03 10:51 AM   #164 
              - We are exploring possibilities here.  9215   Oct-21-03 11:02 AM   #165 
     - Gee...  JackRiddler   Oct-21-03 05:57 PM   #284 
  - ABC News, Dec 1, 2000: "US, Colombia Deny Assassination Attempt"  Minstrel Boy   Oct-21-03 09:39 AM   #155 
  - I blame some guy  realpolitik   Oct-21-03 09:45 AM   #156 
  - "Expert".......a CIA plant?  9215   Oct-21-03 10:11 AM   #160 
  - Wow.  Blue-Jay   Oct-21-03 11:20 AM   #166 
  - Should the Nav lights have been on?  JetJaguar   Oct-21-03 11:37 AM   #167 
  - I Am a Commercial Pilot, Navigation Lights Are Not Used During Daylight  mhr   Oct-21-03 03:26 PM   #192 
     - Perhaps I'm mistaken, but...  Jakey   Oct-21-03 03:38 PM   #203 
        - Those May Be Company Requirements However  mhr   Oct-21-03 06:14 PM   #296 
  - Nothing in the Middle...  MrPrax   Oct-21-03 11:39 AM   #168 
  - I thin democarcy ALREADY has wound up like the Roman Senate  tom_paine   Oct-21-03 11:53 AM   #172 
  - What strikes me as odd here  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 03:25 PM   #190 
  - Make that 3...  Jakey   Oct-21-03 03:31 PM   #198 
  - 4, actually  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 03:43 PM   #206 
  - And we have a bunch of Clark sympathizers leading the charge against  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:07 PM   #226 
  - Without question?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:02 PM   #223 
     - Yup...without question...  Jakey   Oct-21-03 04:09 PM   #228 
     - So you reject ANY POSSIBILITY of pilot incapacitation?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:39 PM   #241 
        - The topic was your contention...  Jakey   Oct-21-03 04:57 PM   #256 
           - No, the topic was you contention that the weather was DEFINITELY  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:07 PM   #258 
              - You just don't get it....  Jakey   Oct-21-03 05:18 PM   #263 
                 - IF the cause was pilot error, then the low clouds/fog were  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:33 PM   #268 
                 - If the cause was "pilot incapacitation"....  Jakey   Oct-21-03 05:54 PM   #281 
                    - Damn you and your inconvenient facts, Jakey!  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 06:08 PM   #292 
                    - Nice rejoinder, helium!  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:22 PM   #303 
                    - You've got those final radar returns for me, Jakey?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:19 PM   #301 
                 - I've repeatedly tried to explain...  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 05:42 PM   #277 
     - The weather was not fine so will you stop saying that!  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:15 PM   #231 
        - Above freezing, no wind, 3-4 miles of visibility, no other planes reported  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:36 PM   #240 
           - Sweet Jesus on a pogo stick!  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:46 PM   #246 
           - Padraig...there ARE indications of..  Jakey   Oct-21-03 04:49 PM   #249 
           - Except there was an inversion layer and it was above freezing to about  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:52 PM   #252 
           - All irrelevant......  Jakey   Oct-21-03 04:47 PM   #247 
              - Thanks for bringing sanity and knowledge into this debate, Jakey.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:56 PM   #255 
                 - "WE" are trying dog.... n/t  Jakey   Oct-21-03 05:08 PM   #259 
  - As a Commercial Pilot, There is Nothing to Prevent a Pilot  mhr   Oct-21-03 03:41 PM   #205 
  - Okay!  JackRiddler   Oct-21-03 06:06 PM   #289 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-21-03 03:59 PM   #221 
     - No, I understand perfectly well.  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:09 PM   #227 
        - So planes were falling out of the sky across the state that day?  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:40 PM   #243 
           - What do you not comprehend?  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 04:50 PM   #250 
           - That the weather certainly wasn't a primary cause of the accident. (NT)  stickdog   Oct-21-03 04:54 PM   #253 
           - Just one who's crew competency is in serious contention... n/t  Jakey   Oct-21-03 04:51 PM   #251 
  - This whole thread makes me sad....  Abaques   Oct-21-03 05:25 PM   #264 
  - Read and analyze everything the NTSB has released.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 05:55 PM   #283 
  - Nor have you. n/t  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 05:57 PM   #285 
     - Hi Padraig18, Me Thinks Stickdog Has Little Practical Understanding  mhr   Oct-21-03 06:36 PM   #309 
        - Oh no! *gasp*  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 06:43 PM   #312 
        - Yeah, a VOR is truly a sophisticated, futuristic thing.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:48 PM   #315 
        - The weather was stable that day.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 06:43 PM   #313 
           - And MEthinks...  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 06:55 PM   #317 
           - Hand waver!  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 07:00 PM   #318 
           - Thanks, helium.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 07:00 PM   #319 
              - A site with some manner of evidence?  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 07:06 PM   #321 
           - Eveleth's "stable" weather....  Jakey   Oct-21-03 07:40 PM   #328 
              - Wow, what a violent "weather system"!  stickdog   Oct-21-03 07:48 PM   #330 
                 - Fallacy: Appeal to ridicule  Padraig18   Oct-21-03 07:52 PM   #331 
                 - Nope...just very low variable ceilings...  Jakey   Oct-21-03 08:02 PM   #332 
                    - Look. Slightly changing low cloud cover COULD have been a factor.  stickdog   Oct-21-03 09:23 PM   #336 
                       - Oh fer chrissakes.....  Jakey   Oct-21-03 09:54 PM   #339 
                          - 72% to 28% (nt)  stickdog   Oct-22-03 01:47 AM   #340 
                             - Yes, 72% are indeed stupid  Selwynn   Oct-22-03 03:30 PM   #418 
                                - Of course, you are smart enough to rule out explanations without evidence.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:39 PM   #427 
  - Thanks for your concern  Bridget Burke   Oct-21-03 05:59 PM   #286 
  - Well, I don't know what that other poster thinks about LIHOP  theemu   Oct-22-03 08:08 AM   #351 
  - You're probably right....  Abaques   Oct-22-03 08:36 AM   #353 
  - Yeah. A more complex and nuanced analysis would reveal that Bush  stickdog   Oct-22-03 01:41 PM   #379 
  - An example....  Abaques   Oct-22-03 08:34 AM   #352 
  - "The noble guy in a train"  JackRiddler   Oct-21-03 06:15 PM   #297 
  - Backed into a corner?  Abaques   Oct-22-03 08:51 AM   #356 
  - sad? or guilty?  9215   Oct-21-03 09:00 PM   #335 
     - Laziness?  Abaques   Oct-22-03 08:45 AM   #354 
        - Here is something think about:  9215   Oct-22-03 11:38 AM   #360 
        - No....  Abaques   Oct-22-03 01:15 PM   #372 
        - What is your explanation for what happened?  stickdog   Oct-22-03 01:49 PM   #381 
           - No, *YOU* tell us how the 'murder' happened.  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 02:09 PM   #388 
           - This is a debate, not a court of law. I'm not looking for a conviction.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:12 PM   #406 
              - My explanation, which you have repeatedly ignored...  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:17 PM   #408 
                 - Those are meaningless words. Produce a narrative explanation.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:26 PM   #415 
                    - You can wait until hell freezes over-- it's there, read it!  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:33 PM   #422 
                       - Losing an argument so completely tends to do that.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:45 PM   #430 
           - Everything you just posted was circumstancial evidence...  Abaques   Oct-22-03 02:18 PM   #390 
              - Where is your concrete evidence that this was an accident?  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:19 PM   #410 
                 - Sorry, but it doesn't work that way buddy....  Abaques   Oct-22-03 05:13 PM   #445 
  - Even people who are totally A-political knew something  loudsue   Oct-21-03 08:13 PM   #333 
  - The poll gave 3 options  nomatrix   Oct-22-03 01:54 AM   #341 
  - Al, I must say that C should have been the most popular pick, IMHO (NT)  stickdog   Oct-22-03 02:33 AM   #342 
     - I'm sorry Stickdog  nomatrix   Oct-22-03 03:09 AM   #344 
  - Use of tin foil hat  nomatrix   Oct-22-03 02:52 AM   #343 
  - Pattern of conduct  Corgigal   Oct-22-03 07:49 AM   #350 
  - The FBI, the intense fire in the fuselage, the blue smoke - anybody?  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 08:48 AM   #355 
  - Don't forget that all mention of the FBI was redacted from the police logs  stickdog   Oct-22-03 10:06 AM   #357 
  - Hoofbeats mean horses  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 12:19 PM   #363 
  - How does that square with this  9215   Oct-22-03 12:56 PM   #366 
  - My goal  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 01:01 PM   #368 
  - Fetzer's Reply: If You Hear Hundreds of Hoofbeats, Think Predator Hunting  stickdog   Oct-22-03 01:35 PM   #377 
  - Another voice of sanity  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 12:25 PM   #364 
  - So I take it you've nothing to say regarding  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 12:53 PM   #365 
  - Links to back up *ALL* the things you 'assert', please? n/t  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 12:57 PM   #367 
  - "Reinvent the wheel tactic":  9215   Oct-22-03 01:02 PM   #369 
  - No  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 01:12 PM   #371 
  - Look to the original posts, I listed their numbers for your convenience  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 01:20 PM   #374 
     - Jim fetzer? PROFESSOR Jim Fetzer from MN?  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 01:26 PM   #375 
        - Is ad hominem all you have?  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 01:34 PM   #376 
        - Is that all YOU have?  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 01:56 PM   #384 
           - You know that's not true.  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 02:27 PM   #392 
              - A complete and total refutation of Fetzer's 'reasoning'.  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 02:34 PM   #393 
                 - You still haven't addressed facts such as  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 02:46 PM   #396 
                 - For the simple reason that...  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:01 PM   #402 
                    - Somehow I think nothing short of an  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 03:05 PM   #403 
                       - You should have stopped when you started listening to whack job Fetzer!  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:18 PM   #409 
                          - Yeah, he's a professor who doesn't believe Oswald acted alone.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:23 PM   #412 
                          - Lack of coimplete disclosure  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:26 PM   #414 
                             - Really? Or are you just taking his speculations out of context? (NT)  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:30 PM   #419 
                                - Prove me wrong. n/t  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:35 PM   #424 
                                   - You make an unsupported assertion as part of your ad hominem attack.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:42 PM   #429 
                                      - Odd time for you to finally pay attenmtion to my 'burden of proof' arg's  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:47 PM   #431 
                          - Just wondering, Padraig18:  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 03:55 PM   #438 
                             - Yes  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:58 PM   #440 
                                - Thanks for the answer,  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 04:04 PM   #443 
                 - The ravings of a lunatic.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 02:51 PM   #399 
                    - If anyone is a lunatic, it's Fetzer!  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:23 PM   #413 
                       - Avoiding the point again, Padraig18? (NT)  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:31 PM   #421 
                          - You HAD a point?  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:36 PM   #425 
        - Let us know how that lawsuit turns out. Discovery is a wonderful thing.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 02:12 PM   #389 
        - Professor Fetzer's CV: Whack job with an advanced degree  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:07 PM   #404 
  - "unusual" blue smoke?  TrogL   Oct-22-03 02:48 PM   #398 
     - It was described as "light blue" and coming from the fuselage,  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 02:58 PM   #401 
        - Like hell you didn't  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:10 PM   #405 
           - like hell I did  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 03:14 PM   #407 
              - Apology  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:22 PM   #411 
                 - same here  TrogL   Oct-22-03 03:40 PM   #428 
                    - apologies appreciated  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 03:48 PM   #432 
                       - Ain't it the truth?  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:55 PM   #436 
  - How does that square with this:  9215   Oct-22-03 01:09 PM   #370 
  - No  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 01:19 PM   #373 
     - Planes with Bush's number one political enemy on them do not crash  stickdog   Oct-22-03 02:06 PM   #386 
     - Conspiracy denier eh?  9215   Oct-22-03 06:21 PM   #446 
  - Excellent analysis  TrogL   Oct-22-03 01:49 PM   #382 
  - How about the simple murder of a man with thousands of bitter enemies?  stickdog   Oct-22-03 02:00 PM   #385 
     - You haven't proven it's murder.  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 02:07 PM   #387 
     - I haven't even alleged murder.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 02:36 PM   #394 
        - Not true  Abaques   Oct-22-03 02:47 PM   #397 
        - You haven't done anything except whine that I don't have absolute proof --  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:52 PM   #434 
        - I suggest that it is *your* logic that is flawed  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 02:54 PM   #400 
        - Attempting to crash a plane isn't murder?  TrogL   Oct-22-03 04:03 PM   #442 
     - Colombo?  TrogL   Oct-22-03 02:24 PM   #391 
        - Columbo  stickdog   Oct-22-03 02:41 PM   #395 
           - I take it I'm not supposed to take you at face value  TrogL   Oct-22-03 03:31 PM   #420 
              - His point is being heavy on questions and light on answers. n/t  Padraig18   Oct-22-03 03:37 PM   #426 
  - Here is the entire debate.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 01:52 PM   #383 
  - I'll PROVE now for once and for all that it was FOUL PLAY  Must_B_Free   Oct-22-03 03:49 PM   #433 
  - All of the false weather reports are what put me on the trail as well.  stickdog   Oct-22-03 03:55 PM   #437 
  - In all these 400 posts  Capn Sunshine   Oct-22-03 06:48 PM   #448 
  - good point.  Minstrel Boy   Oct-22-03 04:01 PM   #441 
  - I suppose the irony escapes you  TrogL   Oct-22-03 04:08 PM   #444 
  - Conspiracy deniers relying on totally corrupt NTSB  9215   Oct-22-03 06:41 PM   #447 
  - Locking this thread and openig continuation for discussion ...  TahitiNut   Oct-22-03 07:08 PM   #449 
  - Fixed link to continuation thread ...  TahitiNut   Oct-22-03 08:36 PM   #451 
  - Just PROVE it  KFC   Oct-22-03 07:09 PM   #450 
 
DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. an unfortunate accident planned by the bush regime

you left out option 4
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It's either one or the other
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. You gotta think big tent

Anybody who tries to interfere with the lucrative flesh trade, especially when there is a risk of embarrassing close US allies, is a walking unfortunate accident waiting to happen.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. LOL
Nice one.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. ok
#1 it was an accident no one planned it, no one executted it.

#2 someone who wanted to see Wellstone dead for whatever reasons done something that made the plane crash.

#3 you are unsure which is it.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
59. You sayng the US govt is incapable of planning an unfortunate accident?

I believe that is sedition.

The United States has a proud tradition of unfortunate accident planning that not even Saudi Occupied Arabia can match.

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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #59
85. some people just hate thinking "outside the box"
Gack, I hate that expression but sometimes it is appropriate. Just trying starting a poll with only one response. All the anal retentives blow up and make a huge stinky scene.

:hi: I like your answer, an unfortunate accident planned by someone close to bush or the new senator from Mn.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
142. #2 - Think President Wellstone
in 2004. The perfect democratic candidate?
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
348. beautiful!
*
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theivoryqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. On SFGate.com
Today - there is an article stating Princess Diana thought that she might be targeted for assassination.
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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. Foil-hatters
Leave woodwork immediately - Report to battle stations.

They loaded up his plane with strawberries.





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theivoryqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. Funny!
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
67. and
cream.
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lindashaw Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. I have nothing to base my suspicion on, I just never believed it
was an accident. There are just too many small plane crashes carrying congress people.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. To clarify
There are too many small plane crashes (and anthrax attacks with military grade specimens) on DEMOCRATIC congress people.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Could it be...
... because they USE 'general aviation' more, and general aviation has a so-so safety record, overall? Think how many news stories you hear every year about people dying in small-plane crashes...
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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Exactly
Politicians (Wellstone, Carnahan, John Heinz, John Tower)

Entertainers (Patsy Cline, John Denver, Rick Nelson, Jim Croce)


Sports figures (Thurman Munson, Roberto Clemente)

Such people do the most flying in small planes. That's
why so many high deaths. It's not a conspiracy. It's
probability.



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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. You forgot
Aaliyah.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
95. and
Buddy Holley
Damn - Bush killed Buddy Holley - the bastard.
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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #95
109. Oh no ! Bush whacked the Big Fucking Bopper
Oh the humanity.

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AquariDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #109
116. Don't forget ELVIS!
Sorry, but this has just gone too far. :grr:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
174. Yep, it was utterly probable that Wellstone would die in a ridiculously
improbable and so far almost completely unexplained accident between the time internal Republican polls showed he would win his re-election and the time Minnesota law said his name must be replaced on the ballot.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #174
219. Oh, PUH-leeze!
:eyes:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #219
230. Nice argument.
Typical.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:56 PM
Original message
I think that is
precisely why the repukes use small aircraft to knock off opponents...it can easily be written off as "another small aircraft accident" What are the odds that Mel Carnahan and Paul Wellstone both died JUST prior to an election AND they both just happen to be Democrats?
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BikeDeck Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. so-so saftey record?
I don't know what you consider a so-so saftey record, but I have general aviation friends and I have no fear of flying with them. And how many planes crash out of the hundreds of thousands of flights in a year?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Much, *MUCH* higher than for commercial aviation. n/t
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BikeDeck Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Much Much higher
is not a very good answer.

I am making these numbers up, but say commercial aviation has an accident rate of .00001% and general aviation has an accident rate of .00003%. Thats 200% higher, but in reality, an infinitesimal number.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. Okee dokee
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 02:43 PM by Padraig18
Here's some real numbers:

"...The number of persons killed in all aviation accidents dropped from 1,171 in 2001 to 618 in 2002. It should be noted that airline fatalities in 2001 accounted for a total of 531 deaths. The 2001 deaths included the September 11 terrorist attacks and the American Airlines flight 587 crash in November. There were no fatalities on scheduled passenger carriers in 2002. The number of general aviation fatalities increased slightly from 562 in 2001 to 576 in 2002...."

Now, common sense tells you that far more people--- FAR MORE--- fly commercially, yet the numbers *not counting those who died on 9-11* are a grand total of 42 greater than the number who died in general-aviation fatalities.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2003/031002.htm
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BikeDeck Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. I would look at it slightly different
Instead of looking at the total number of people who fly commercial vs. general aviation, I would think a better comparrison would be total flights, commercial vs general and the number of accidents for each.

If a commercial airliner goes down you are looking at hundreds of fatalities, where as if a general aviation craft goes down you are looking at 1 to a dozen.

There is no doubt that commercial flights are the safest way to travel ever invented. But general aviation is extremely safe as well. And I wonder how many of the general aviation accidents are in experimental aircraft, or by stunt piloting.

I have a private airfield 5 miles from my house in a guys back yard. He flys biplanes and does a lot of stunt flying. If he goes down its gonna be classified as a general aviation accident. But the flight was more than a point A to point B transport.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
175. And the safety record of the King Air A-100 specifically?
Keep telling yourself it had to be an accident even though you have no explanation for how the accident happened.

There may be a job for you at the FBI or NTSB someday.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #175
220. Have NONE of them ever crashed? n/t
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #220
229. Very few.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #229
242. Wait!
Aren't they part of the cospiracy? *furtive look* :eyes:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #242
244. Lame appeal to ridicule.
Typical.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #229
270. I did
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 05:36 PM by Padraig18
There have been 15 fatalities involving the A-100, and TEN of those fifteen involve the same charter company Wellstone was using!

Probably killed those earlier people to throw us off the scent for when they killed PW, right? :eyes:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #270
288. And EIGHT of those fifteen died in Wellstone's crash!
So what you are saying is that more people died in Wellstone's crash than in the entire previous history of King Air A-100 flight!

But you probably included Wellstone's flight (the one in question, if you'll recall) in your "analysis" just to throw us off the scent, right?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #288
291. 8 people, one crash, 8 dead.
Well, DUH! I'm sure Mrs. Boxworthy who taught you 3rd-grade arithmetic is proud of you today... /sarcasm off
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #291
294. Way to go! Lame appeals to ridicule suit you so well. (NT)
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #294
299. It's all anyone, including YOU, 'knows'!
And you have presented NOTHING--- NADA--- ZIP--- ZILCH--- BUPKUS--- to prove anything that would even TEND to show it was something besides a tragic, but altogether garden-variety accident.

You ignore facts, experienced pilots, and anything else that doesn't fit neatly into your 'the BFEE did it' conspiracy theory.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #299
310. Straw man.
You have wholly mischaracterized my modest take -- which is that pilot incapacitation is currently the most tenable theory of why Wellstone's plane crashed.

You are the absolutist here. I am merely suggesting that we shouldn't dismiss any reasonable possibilities until we have enough evidence to do so.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #310
314. Ummm
Did *I* ever mention a microwave-generator to incapcitate the pilots? Did *I* ever mention a VOR generator to draw the plane off course? It was NOT a straw man argument---only a GREAT deal more rational than yours. :eyes:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #314
316. I mentioned a radio beacon (VOR) as a possible explanation for how
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 06:56 PM by stickdog
the plane got more than a mile off course.

How do you explain how the plane got more than a mile off course?

As for microwave generators, it is simply one of several possibilites:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000CBC91-B6F...

Of course, I realize that you don't need any stinking explanations.


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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #316
320. no, I don't need any 'stinking explanations'---
What I need is something resembling *proof*. Your proof, and I use that term VERY loosely, wouldn't convince my brain-damaged dog, and he's about as gullible as they come...
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #320
322. Logic 101 Quiz: You say it must have been an accident.
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 07:11 PM by stickdog
I say it might not have been an accident.

Which of us needs to supply proof?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #322
323. Logic 101-A: *You* do
Because the vast majority of plane crashes are accidents--- even ones carrying politicians, and important people, stuff like that...
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #323
324. Proof? (NT)
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #324
326. So obvious I won't waste time.
I refer you to http://www.ntsb.gov

Find it yourself.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #323
325. And your proof for this assertion is?
???
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #325
329. It's a *fact*, not an 'assertion'
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 07:41 PM by Padraig18
Look it up your damned self, like you told me to do on an earlier post. Don't waste any more of my time until you have proof that that is NOT the case.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #329
358. It's not a fact. The subset of analogous deaths is too small and the
evidence that the vast majority of them were accidents is too weak.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #358
362. Stop your sophistry
I went to a Jesuit high school, and you're not EVEN in their class. Address the issue.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #362
378. Forgive him, father, for he knows not what he says ... (NT)
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
96. We have lots of them crash out here in W Texas
that's why this whole thing seems so silly to me.

Yesterday a WW II plane of the Commemorative AirForce (was Confederate Air Force until name change last year) crashed and killed the pilot.

Last week a crop duster got tangled in electri wires, flipped over and landed on the highway. Old boy walked away with minor injuries.

We also have pipeline planes go down from time to time.

It just happens with small planes. Politicians may fly a small plane to five different towns in one day. That's going to catch up to you eventually.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Well, let's see, over the years there have been several
Heinz from Pennsylvania (R)
Wright from Texas
Boggs from Louisiana
Carnahan from Missouri
Wellstone from Minnesota
? in Alaska

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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
97. Didn't a congresscritter from Texas
die in Africa a number of years ago doing relief work?

Cokie Roberts dad who was speaker of the House died in a plane crash in Alaska.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. and further
too few happen to Repugs that are not opposed to some Bush, like some of the repug contra witnesses. John Tower was one.
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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Is that why Bush tried to make Tower
Defense Secretary ?

Because he wanted to whack him ?


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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
135. Google "Tower Commission"
As I remember it, there was surprise in that it was not kind to Raygun.

"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. Oh dear...
:tinfoilhat:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
176. Why am I not surprised that a Clark loving Dean supporter would be
troubled by allegations of a BFEE conspiracy?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #176
254. Once again, the rules prevent me from posting an appropriate reply
But if I *were* to post suck a reply, it would be two words-- the first four letters long and the second three--- and they would be accompanied by the extension of my middle finger.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #254
260. Why not just try another lame appeal to ridicule?
It's served you so well elsewhere.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #260
262. Shoo!
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 05:16 PM by Padraig18
*sprinkles troll-b-gone*

PS-- I believe stalking is against the rules, and IMO you are perilously close.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #262
269. Answering you within a single thread is stalking?
My, you're a paranoid one, aren't you?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #269
271. Convenient how you forget about the other day... n/t
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #271
287. What about the "other day"?
talk about :tinfoilhat:
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. other: a sad day and an abyss of sorrow
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I echo that n/t
May God rest their souls...
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. The good always die before their time for the most part and before they
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 01:52 PM by JohnKleeb
can accomplish more greatness.
why do the good ones have to go so soon?
so many names in history. I was gonna one time write an epilogue had RFK lived.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
177. Yeah. RFK also had an unfortunate accident. (NT)
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. Sure funny how many small planes have crashed over the years....
... Aside from Wellstone, the one that really interests me is Salem Bin Laden. Osama's older brother and the guy who funded Junior's first oil company, Arbusto. Apparently, Salem was an experienced pilot who, for some strange reason, one day decided to take a sharp left turn into some high voltage power lines and fry himself.

Now if Osama is truly no longer a partner of the Bush Criminal Empire and considers them the enemy, what do you suppose turned him against them? The murder of his brother probably would do it.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Small Aircraft Crash At a Higher Rate Because Most are Piloted

by single pilots in privately owned aircraft.

These pilots are not required to meet the same recurrent training standards as the airlines.

This is not to say that they are bad pilots. However, there is a pretty high correlation between training and safety.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. An anecdote:
One of my cutomers is a 65 year-old private pilot who has been flying for 40+ years. We have talked about the Wellstone accident on several occasions, and he once said said "He should never have taken the chance, with weather that marginal. There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are damned few old, bold pilots"--- and he is a liberal Democrat.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. It Takes A Disciplined Pilot To Tell a Customer No
eom
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
138. Both Paul and Sheila Wellstone were afraid of flying
If their pilot had said it wasn't safe, they would have listened.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
179. You are ignorant. Wellstone's pilot had another pilot convince Wellstone
that the weather was just fine to fly into Eveleth.

Because the weather was just fine to fly into Eveleth.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. I watched coverage of the accident
on CNN and I seen they sky and the area around it and the weather looked mild but well enough for a licensed pilot to handle.
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MrsMatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
134. the weather in Minnesota in late October
especially northeastern Minnesota is certainly a factor (Lake Superior being one variable). I'm pretty conviced it was just an unfortnate accident, but then, I tend to be on the PollyAnnish side.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #134
178. Because you haven't investigated the accident.
The weather was fine.

No other planes in the entire state had any trouble landing that day.
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MrsMatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #178
380. And you have
an advanced degree in meteorology, not to mention extensive
training in investigating small plane crashes.

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TKP Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
79. Pilot
I'm a General Aviation (GA) pilot and the biggest cause of accidents is the pilot or the pilot's customer which has an attitude of "we've got to be there at a certain time". Just like JFK, Jr., he got in way over his head and it killed him. Unfortunately, some (not most) GA pilots are willing to take chances, when if they were to wait an hour, it would allow the weather to pass and they'd have a much safer flight.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #79
180. You are ignorant. Wellstone's pilot was NOT going to fly into Duluth
because he thought the visibility was too poor.

However, when he got the METAR for Eveleth and talked to another pilot who just came from Eveleth, he concluded that the weather was just fine to land at Eveleth.

Because the weather was just fine to land at Eveleth and nobody else had ANY problems with it.
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TKP Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #180
435. dork
Son, you're an idiot. Weather conditions can change drastically, expecially in the winter.

I take it you're not a pilot, and heaven help us all if you ever become one.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #435
439. Except the weather didn't change drastically that day.
But thanks for the pointless ad hominem anyway.
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Wwagsthedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. Don't forget Mel Carnahan's death
Yes, he beat john ashcroft in the election following his demise but now we have that loser as attorney general. What a sad twist of the knife.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
361. Ashcroft also benefited from another dems death in 1976.
Another liberal connected to Ashcroft family died in plane crash on eve of election victory. James Litton, 1976. One prob, Ashcroft was a chief beneficiary of Litton's death..
: http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/du...

In 1976 Litton a liberal populist candidate was expected to win in a landlslide against Repug opponent Danforth when he died in a plane crash
As a result of his death, however, his opponent was given the Senate seat. His Republican opponent was John Danforth, then Missouri's Attorney General.
(<http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/election.pat,local/377... > ;)
Who got Danforth's seat as the state AG when he moved to the Senate? John Ashcroft. When Danforth retired from the Senate, who was tapped to replace him? John Ashcroft.
(<http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/ashcr... > ;)
Strang how Ashcroft keeps popping up, isn't it? He gets his state AG seat because of one plane crash. When he's going down to certain defeat his opponent Mel Carnahan dies in another plane crash. That he lost the seat to a dead man could be viewed as bad timing. He should have waited until closer to election night.

The mistake wasn't repeated with Wellstone, he died the day before the due date for a replacement.



http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Bottoms/bottoms2...


How very convenient...

...that Democratic anti-war Senator Wellstone died, to the advantage of his Republican adversary, whose ascension to the Senate will give a majority to the Republican Party.

...that Wellstone died right after Republicans conceded privately that he was going to win his Senate race in spite of, or maybe even because of, his anti-war vote.

...that he died after voting against Bush's unilateral attack on Iraq, against Bush's Homeland Security Department, and in favor of an independent 9-11 investigation over Bush and Cheney's objections.

...that he died one day before time ran out to name a replacement candidate. Running posthumously, Wellstone would surely have won, and a replacement named by Minnesota Democrats. Replacement candidate over-the-hill Mondale has less of a chance. Senator Wellstones wife was conveniently killed also, preventing a repeat of John Ashcrofts defeat two years ago by the wife of newly deceased air crash victim Mel Carnahan.



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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. I Am a Commercial Pilot And Would Love To Believe Bush Did It
But it strikes me as an accident, specifically a stall-spin accident.

This occurs when the airplane flies to slowly for the wings to generate lift.

This can be caused by pilot error. During an instrument approach, maintaining airspeed is paramount. A moment's inattention can have serious consequences.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. As I'm not myself a pilot,
I'd be interested to read what you think of this re: stalling the aircraft. Also, what might account for the simultaneous loss of communication?


The latest explanation, published in the Star Tribune (29 December 2002), is that the pilots committed a blunder that turned into a stall, where airspeed had dropped to 85 knots. That theory does not withstand critical inspection, when the pilots' qualifications and the suitability of the weather are taken into account. Indeed, with this plane, a loud alarm sounds at 85 knots warning the pilot(s) that a stall is imminent, but leaving enough time to compensate. Experiments with these aircraft indicate that they only actually stall out below 70 knots.

This means other, less obvious, possible explanations have to be considered, even if on moral, political, or personal grounds--we would prefer not to confront them. These include the possibility that the plane might have been disabled by a small bomb, by a canister of gas, or by an electro-magnetic pulse. The most salient feature of the crash is the loss of communication that occurred simultaneously with the loss of control. This is difficult to explain by other, less sinister, causes. Neither pilot error, mechanical problems nor difficult weather can explain it.

http://www.reader-weekly.com/Reader/Reader_Weekly/Jim_F...


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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Stall Speed Increases With Accumulated Wing Ice
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 02:38 PM by mhr
So, if there was wing ice, the plane would stall at a higher speed than normal.

The stall warning horn could have gone off at the same moment the plane stalled.

Or alternately, the plane could have stalled before the horn ever made a sound.

Typically, if icing is a factor in an instrument approach, extra airspeed is carried for just this reason.

Further, the normal approach speed for this aircraft would probably be between 100 and 130 knots, significantly faster than reported.

As to loss of communications, I suspect that if you went into a spin in a King Air, you would have your hands full.

This is a violent Maneuver!

Communications would be the last thing on your mind.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #45
183. There WAS NO FUCKING ICE.
The temperature was over freezing below 5,000. There was a well observed inversion layer.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #183
300. Then Why Did the NTSB List Icing As a Possible Contributing Factor?
eom
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #300
304. Because anything's possible?
There was NO EVIDENCE of icing below 4,000 feet in Minnesota that entire day.

And the plane spent seven minutes at or below 4,000 BEFORE the co-pilot made the last "A-OK" report to ATC.
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TKP Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
81. Stalls
I'm a General Aviation pilot. Stall speeds increase if there is ice on the wings, which if I'm not mistaken, was a possibility. Also, you've got to take into consideration pilot error, i.e. he was below the glide slope, he misread the approach plates, the plane got ahead of him, etc... Just because the stall horn sounds doesn't mean you have altitude to recover, and a stall in IMC conditions (instrument) complicates proper stall recovery. A loss of communication might mean an electrical failure, another strike against you in IMC conditions.

I'd wait for the NTSB report. They've done so many of these they know where to look for answers.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
100. My guess is the cause was
two or three reasons that came together to make a catastrophe. If it was a problem that happened all the time, plaes would be dropping like flies. The fact that it was a rare occurance means it probably happened because of a rare cause.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #100
184. And weather sure wasn't the major factor because the weather was just
just fine for dozens of planes a lot less weatherproof than a King Air A-100.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
181. The plane was more than 40 mph under the recommended approach speed!
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 03:01 PM by stickdog
The stall warning horn would have been blaring. There were two pilots.

The plane never got below stall speed.

All the pilots who simulated the flight -- even when loaded up with simulated ice THAT DID NOT EXIST AT 1 C -- were able to recover safely.

But thanks for your ignorant platitudes about a "moment's inattention."
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
19. liberals and leftists are just "accident prone" I guess...


A pilot, Steve Filopovitch, took this photo ten miles from where Paul Wellstone's plane crashed, approximately 20 minutes before it happened. He said, "The temperature on the ground was pleasant with my estimation of visibility was 3 miles with a 500 to 1000 (foot) ceiling. There was no ground wind. Experienced pilot(s) could handle these conditions very easily."

Links to articles by Jim Fetzer re Wellstone's crash, plus rebutals:

http://www.reader-weekly.com/Reader/Reader_Weekly/Jim_F...


Mike Ruppert reported "that the day after the crash, he received a message from a former CIA operative who has proven extremely reliable in the past and who is personally familiar with these kinds of assassinations, who told him, 'As I said earlier, having played ball (and still playing, in some respects) with this current crop of reinvigorated old white men, these clowns are nobody to screw with. There will be a few more strategic accidents, you can be certain of that.' Which is more than just a little disconcerting."
http://www.reader-weekly.com/Reader/Reader_Weekly/Jim_F...
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. General-aviation fatalities in 2002:
"...The number of persons killed in all aviation accidents dropped from 1,171 in 2001 to 618 in 2002. It should be noted that airline fatalities in 2001 accounted for a total of 531 deaths. The 2001 deaths included the September 11 terrorist attacks and the American Airlines flight 587 crash in November. There were no fatalities on scheduled passenger carriers in 2002. The number of general aviation fatalities increased slightly from 562 in 2001 to 576 in 2002...."

http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2003/031002.htm

People die in plane crashes every day...

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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. True
but it doesn't mean people can tamper with a plane to make it crash. Car accidents happen everyday but it doesn't mean someone can't fuck with the brakes or do something to cause a car to crash.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. the opposite is also true
Just because it was PW doesn't mean it couldn't have been a tragic accident.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I am undecided
but I am just saying that you may say accidents happen everyday well I can say some accidents can be the result of someone tampering with the car/plane.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I don't disagree
I'm just saying that there's absolutely no proof (unless you count goofy conspiracy theories as proof) of any kind that it wasn't just a horrible, tragic accident. If and when there is, my mind could change. :hi:
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Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
106. OK how many congressmen or Senators
have died in car crashes in the past 10/15 years? Not to mention Wellstone's flight had two qualified pilots not one. You would think that should up your chances.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #106
121. I don't know, tbh.
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 07:17 PM by Padraig18
But as for the 2-pilot issue, my friend who's a pilot said, "Once you lose it in a flat spin, all you have on board are bodies."
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. When The Aircraft Crashed, The Engines Were Running And

There was fuel on board.

The investigation did not uncover any control surface malfunctions.

This leaves three possibilities.

1. Pilot Error, see earlier post
2. Pitot, Static system failure - airspeed failure
3. Sabotage of the airspeed system

One is highly likely, it happens everyday. Two, is possible but these systems are checked routinely. Three is possible but unlikely because there was no evidence to support this conclusion.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
185. There is no evidence to support any conclusion.
The plane was allowed to burn into cinders for about 10 hours. Little was recovered. No calls were made to ATC describing any trouble. And there was no CVR or FDR on the flight (supposedly).

If it was merely pilot error, it bordered on pilot incapacitation.

And the weather was just fine.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #185
298. Aircraft Of This Type ARE NOT REQUIRED TO HAVE CVR, CDR

CVR, CDR only applies to the airlines.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #298
311. You are correct that they are not required.
Why yell?
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
101. That is true
No one will ever prove that here wasn't a conspiracy.

I blame the elusive homonid Bigfoot, and no one will ever prove that isn't correct either.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. "People die in plane crashes every day..."
but Congressmen and Senators don't. Though Democrats more frequently than Republicans. And the Senate's most prominent liberal, in a contest that could determine the balance of power?

Plane crashes are a favoured method of assassination. And precisely because they're relatively easy to pass off as accidents. Just look outside the US, where it seems much easier to accept political murder as standard operating procedure: Omar Torrijos in Panama, Zia ul-Haq in Pakistan.

Accidents happen, and they can be made to happen. And to think otherwise is foolhardy.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. In the abscence of proof...
...it's rather 'goofy' to think it wasn't an accident, IMO.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
186. Why? Where is the proof that it was an accident?
If a plane hit the WTC, would you say the same thing?

Do you really believe that nobody in the entire world with the means to rig a small plane crash wanted Wellstone dead?

So why should we require proof to believe it was foul play, but require no proof whatsoever -- and not even any believable explanation -- to believe it was an accident?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #186
222. *No* proof?
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 04:01 PM by Padraig18
Umm... small plane, bad weather, marginal weather conditions, laws of physics and aerodynamics.

Hoofbeats.... ZEBRAS! :tinfoilhat:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #222
233. Highly safe plane, fine weather, unexplained off course turning,
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 04:25 PM by stickdog
unfathomably dangerous approach speed, two pilots and no emergency call, recent terrorism involving plane crashes, and a ridiculously unpopular Senator who had attempts against his life in Latin America, who was Rove's #1 adversary and who was about to win.

Hear hoofbeats -- think a predator is probably hunting.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #233
239. Why do you persist in your denial about the weather.
It has been explained here repeatedly, in language a dull 3 year-old could understand, that the weather was *not* 'fine'--- it was, in plain English, 'crappy', and in pilot-ese 'marginal'.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #239
248. Above freezing, no wind, 3-4 miles visibility, trace fog.
The weather was marginal at Duluth.

It was just fine at Eveleth. I mean, Wellstone's pilot had a pilot coming from Eveleth convincing Wellstone the conditions were safe. A pilot hopped into a tiny one engine to go look for the crash site. No other pilots had any problems -- even at Duluth, where the visibility and cloud cover were far worse.

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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #248
266. You are simply FACTUALLY wrong....
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 05:32 PM by Jakey
about the weather at Eveleth and how it impacted the flight. The perameters you mention are irrelevant. The "ceiling" condition is the relevant data.

And as to the "tiny one engine" that took off to do a search, google "special VFR" and learn why that is conceivable.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #266
272. Yes, I failed to mention the one factor that COULD possibly have
impacted the flight and instead highlighted all the other weather factors that certainly could not, along with some anecdotal evidence that the cloud ceiling wasn't that bad either.

That doesn't make my post FACTUALLY wrong.

I'm merely presenting one side of this argument, with FACTUAL precision.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #266
273. Oh no, he's *never* wrong
We're just stupid and Clark-loving BFEE wannabes. /sarcasm off
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #273
276. Jakey is a fine steward of the facts. As for you,
the shoes look to be your size.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Maybe Democrats Perish In Aircraft Accidents More Often Because
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 02:16 PM by mhr
they have to take chartered aircraft.

Republicans, on the other hand, can rely on their corporate contacts to ferry them anywhere.

Corporate flight crews and aircraft are typically very well trained and the aircraft are maintained meticulously.

I am sure there is a statistical correlation.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Maybe, but Wellstone's King Air A100
is supposedly extremely reliable and has an excellent safety record.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. That's Not The Point

He was flying with a commercial air charter service.

These are typically well run.

My experience is that corporate flight departments are run even better because they have more money to spend.

The safety record of the plane is meaningless if the maintenance is deficient in some way.

I have flown night freight in turboprops. Most people would not set one foot in these planes looking at their condition.

I have almost died because of faulty maintenance.

Departing out of New Orleans one winter night, the aircraft I flew did not respond properly to electric trim.

Down trim made the plane go up and up trim made the plane go down.

It took two of us to control the plane and about five minutes to figure out that the mechanics had wired the trim switch backwards.

Had there only been one pilot aboard that evening, I am pretty sure that a crash would have occurred.

Stuff happens up there. It's called the real world.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #51
62. Wellstone's plane had two pilots,
and the captain had passed a proficiency test just two days before the crash.

Stuff happens, I know. But I give credence to assassination theory given what I know of the "real world."
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. If You Want To Counter The Facts And Believe a Myth, Fine
eom
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #63
193. If you want to believe something without any evidence or explantion, fine.
There wasn't any ice.

The plane was more than 40 mph under its recommended approach speed.

And it was still above stall speed on every radar return, but was below the stall warning horn speed for close to a minute.

And there's no evidence that the pilot ever even tried to recover Instead, the plane was turning left (a stall recovery attempt would have flown straight and a fly around would have turned right) and still slowing when it crashed -- with the engines still working.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
187. Murder happens, too.
It's called the real world.
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MrsMatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #41
137. But the primary pilot
was sleep deprived, and the secondary pilot (believed to have been piloting at the time of the crash) was relatively inexperienced.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
102. I wonder if Republican congresscritters
take bigger planes (corporates), or don't fly to small towns as much.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
182. How many of these casualties were in King Air A-100s?
Yeah.

Just those on Wellstone's plane, right?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #182
278. 15
And TEN--- t-e-n--- one-zero--- 10--- were on planes owned and operated by the same charter service PW used.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #278
290. 8 of these 15 died in the Wellstone crash.
So what you are saying is that there were more fatalities in Wellstone's crash than in the entire flight history of all King Air A-100's ever made.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #290
302. Once again, 3rd-grade math wasn't wasted on you! n/t
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #302
306. Too bad I can't say the same for you and Logic 101. (NT)
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #306
307. If I'd seen you use any, i might be wounded by your reply.
:tinfoilhat:
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BikeDeck Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
36. Let us also not forget
Let us also not forget that if Wellstone had kept his promise to the people of Minnesota to only serve 2 terms in the Senate, he would be alive today.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
189. What the FUCK is this supposed to mean?
And if OJ's wife had just been faithful to him ...
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BikeDeck Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #189
194. What does it mean?
Just pointing out that his breaking his promise to the people of Minnesota contributed to his death.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #194
199. Every event "contributes" to every subsequent event in this way.
When you die tragically, I'll take pleasure in pointing out that your last two posts "contributed" to that.
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BikeDeck Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #199
201. no
my posting here will not contribute to my death.

If he had kept his promise he would not have been on that plane.

That is all I said. No more, no less.
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BikeDeck Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #199
210. Never forget
that the leading cause of death is birth.
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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
42. As is well-known but not commonly acknowledged
Knute Rockne, famed Notre Dame football coach, was
actually killed by Walker Neil Bush, great-uncle of the
current President. Angered at not getting a football
scholarship to Notre Dame Bush had to attend Yale where he
became a member of Skull and Bones. Bush had stalked Rockne
for years and finally got his revenge when he brought the famous
coaches plane down with a jerry-rigged short wave radio.



Knute, we hardly knew ye.


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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
195. Appeal to ridicule. (NT)
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
44. Oh dear God!!!!
Guys Listen up:

It is this sort of nonsense which the disaffected electorate rolls their eyes at. To subscribe the this conspiracy theory is to give credence to those who would aregure that Bill Clinton had Vice Foster killed and that there was some sort of crime that Clinton got away with on Whitewater.

We should not be playing their game.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #44
202. Yes. Because Vince Foster was killed mysteriously, we must never
even consider the possibility that people in power ever commit crimes.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #202
224. Vince Foster blew his own brains out! n/t
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #224
234. Yes. Because Kenneth Starr said so, it must be true. (NT)
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #234
237. No
Because the autopsy, the ballistic evidence and the *complete absence of any other evidence to the contrary* says so!

:tinfoilhat:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #237
261. Yep, just like Enron's J. Clifford Baxter ...
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #261
265. Let's not forget Elvis
I heard he had some dirt on #41. Overdose---yeah, sure. /sarcasm off :eyes:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #265
274. What about Elvis' death was less than self-evident? (NT)
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #274
279. What is not self-evident about the Wellstone crash? n/t
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #279
293. Let's see.
how it happened

when it happened

to whom it happened

why it happened
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #293
295. let's see
how it happened

---Plane fall out of sky, go boom, people inside die.

when it happened

--- Almost exactly a year ago.

to whom it happened

---US Sen. Paul Wellstone, his wife Sheila, their daughter, 2 pilots and 3 other people.

why it happened

---To be determined by the NTSB.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #295
305. Yep. Because you say so.
All is clear.

Can I have my Kool-aid now?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #305
308. Need it to wash down your Thorazine and Haldol? n/t
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Loyal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
47. You gotta be kidding
52% on here think it was a conspiracy?
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Yankees suck
but yeah..... this is absolutely indidious.
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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Don't you realize that the Bushes assasinated
JFK
RFK
MLK
John Lennon
Abraham Lincoln
William McKinley
Julius Caesar


and I hate the fucking Yankees
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
103. David Letterman joke
Some guy was clinically dead for a few minutes. When they revived him, the aksed him what it was like being dead. He said it was like listening to Phil Rizzuto during a rain delay.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. ALL "Conspiracy Theories"?
Granted, the Wellstone crash may well have been an accident. People do get suspicious--especially considering who profited. But small planes do crash.

Seizing on one controversial event to laugh at ALL the people who believe ALL those silly conspiracy theories can be a method to discredit more believeable possibilties.

For example, what do you think about LIHOP?
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
50. The Paul Wellstone crash was not an accident
Tuesday, April 24, 2001

"The Bushies despise Wellstone, who unlike most Senate Democrats has been fighting spirited battles against the new administrations policies on everything from the environment to the tax cuts for the rich to military aid for the "Plan Colombia" drug war boondoggle. Other Democratic senators who face re-election contests in 2002 are, according to polls, more vulnerable than Wellstone. But the Bush camp has been focusing highest-level attention on "Plan Wellstone" its project to silence progressive opposition."

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0424-07.htm

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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. This Proves Nothing, It Is Only An Opinion
eom
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Was what happened to Paul
in Columbia only an opinion?
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Look at this from May 25, 2001:
Democratic Senator to be Assassinated Soon.
Assassination teams actively preparing hit

Within months, one of a selected group of democratic Senators, likely from a state with a Republican Governor, will meet an untimely death. The death will appear to be either a plane accident or by natural causes, - Whichever is most easily accomplished. The reality will in fact be that the Senator was one of a group of several Senators (Narrowed down into a group of Selects) targeted for assassination and was the one who was in the right place at the right time for the most convenient and clean "hit.

You will see, within in the coming months, for absolutely certainty, the untimely death of at least one Democratic Senator, to "rebalance the scale". The private covert intelligence groups behind George Bush Sr. are extraordinarily well funded with petrochemical billions. They are deadly, work completely autonomously, in a terrorist formation identical to a terrorist organization, and are absolutely religiously dedicated to accomplishing their objectives. They will not rest until the Senate is under the control once again of the darkest force ever to seize control of the American Empire - The clandestine industrial / military / intelligence triad who is currently represented by George Bush Jr.

Few have the ability to comprehend the machinations of this dark force. It is beyond the scope of our Journalists. And only a few intellectuals still remain who will even dare to approach this grim reality. But is a reality. This triad will employ cells of ex-military/CIA "cutouts" whose mission will be to carefully eliminate one of a selected group of Democratic Senators. Once, one of the senators is eliminated the mission is complete, the tracks get covered, the evidence quickly cleaned up and the history books will once again inscribe a lie for all of posterity to suck on. And we will never know the true nature of our world and especially the dark force which now controls the world and the writing of those history books.

The mission is already underway and several "candidates" are being evaluated for extermination. The method of elimination is also being evaluated and will be narrowed down to one of several choices. One being a carefully planned "plane crash." Another is through the delivery of certain biological agents to the Senator.

http://www.lightscion.com/voxnyc/archives/senator-assas...
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. This Can Hardly Be Called a Serious Source
eom
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DealsGapRider Donating Member (650 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
57. Jesus Christ, people...
...yeah, and the Soviets shot down Korean Airlines flight 007 because rabidly anti-communist Congressman Lawrence McDonald was on board.

A grip. Get one, please.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
58. I can't believe the results of poll - you guys are embarassing me
Does anyone have a single shred of non-circumstantial credible evidence to substantiate the claim that Wellstone's death was murder?

I cannot believe 54% (so far) believe in was a "conspiracy." You know the republicans also use aliens that shape shift and take on the form of Democrats like Joe Liebermann - ooooooooooooooh uh-huh! Think about it!

My uncle's cousin's nephew's brother's mom's barber's trash man's gynocoloist's pet turtle's sister-in-law actually SAW the alien take Joe's shape!

Next up: Face of Satan appears in smoke over Wellstone wreckage - read all about it in the Daily News. And if that comment offends you, its not more offensive than I found completely groundless conspiracy theories.

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. The RW already thinks most of us are wack jobs
And poll results like the one above make me wonder myself, on occasion... :tinfoilhat:
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DealsGapRider Donating Member (650 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. No shit.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #66
200. Wow! Not another "rational" coincidence theorist! (NT)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
197. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #197
232. The new rules prevent me from making the reply your post deserves!
:grr:
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. It's not just us. Members of Congress
have voiced suspicions, albeit anonymously. (Or, I suppose, you could simply believe Mike Ruppert's making this shit up.)

"FTW was able to receive comments on the crash from two Democratic members of the House of Representatives. Both, who spoke on condition of anonymity, stated that they believed that Wellstone had been murdered.

"One said, 'I don't think there's anyone on the Hill who doesn't suspect it. It's too convenient, too coincidental, too damned obvious. My guess is that some of the less courageous members of the party are thinking about becoming Republicans right now.'"
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110102_wellst...
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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. Michael Ruppert
was fortunate that he found out his fiance was a CIA
agent sent to throw him off the track in his investigations.

Whew. That was a close one.



She made a great strawberry shortcake though.


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newsjunkie Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. we have all wondered from time to time
because the timing and what it meant to us was so weird and suspicious. The day he died I cried for 2 days because I knew what it meant and the huge difference it would make to America. The world was going to be way better if they could've stayed here with us. They had BIG ideas and BIG plans....good ones for all. That Memorial for Paul STUNT the Rs pulled convinced me once and for all that ALL Repukes are heartless careless cruel stupid bastards that I for one will never believe or trust again with anything,and will not have sympathy for.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. A fellow Minnesotan thinks otherwise
"Pilot wanted to cancel Wellstone's fatal flight
BY CHARLES LASZEWSKI, RICK LINSK and TOM WEBB
Pioneer Press

U.S. Sen. Paul Wellstone was so nervous about the weather before takeoff on the morning of his fatal flight to Eveleth, Minn., that his pilot asked another pilot to reassure the senator that everything would be all right.

But Wellstone's pilot, Richard Conry, had himself expressed grave doubts about the weather that October morning so much so that when he got his first weather briefing from the Federal Aviation Administration at 7:15 a.m., he wanted to cancel the flight.

"You know what, I don't think I'm going to take this flight," Conry told the weather briefer, according to a transcript of the conversation included in the National Transportation Safety Board's first major report on the Oct. 25 crash. The accident killed Wellstone; his wife, Sheila Wellstone; his daughter, Marcia Wellstone Markuson; and five others, including Conry.

The NTSB's "factual report" of the accident doesn't say what caused the twin-engine Beechcraft King Air A100 to crash just two miles southeast of the runway at Eveleth-Virginia Municipal Airport. The probable cause and contributing factors will be determined later by the safety panel's board members.

But the 2-inch-thick report does delve deeply into two issues that have concerned authorities since the investigation's early days: whether meteorological conditions on the morning of the crash could have caused killer ice to form on the plane's wings, and whether Conry and co-pilot Michael Guess individually and as a team were competent pilots.

U.S. Rep. James Oberstar of Chisholm, Minn., the top Democrat on the House Transportation Committee and an expert on aviation, said he had been briefed on the NTSB report. After reading it, he said, he was concerned more than ever about icing and the flight crew's performance.

"It appears to me that it's ever more likely a combination of mechanical failures and pilot error mechanical meaning icing, in which the crew loses control of the surfaces of the aircraft. And the history of the pilot much of which was not available last fall, we didn't know all these facts about him raises questions.

"I'm always hesitant to be critical of a pilot on a fatal crash because he's not here to defend himself," Oberstar said. "But you look at these pieces of information, and it begins to raise questions about competence in flight management."
.... "

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/5236353.htm
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. The weather cleared after the pilot made that statement
A striking example appeared in the Duluth News Tribune (22 February 2003), when it ran a story entitled, Pilot almost called off Wellstones fatal flight. According to St. Paul Pioneer Press reporters Charles Laszewski, Rich Linsk, and Tom Webb, who wrote the story, Senator Wellstone was uneasy about the weather, and his pilot, Richard Conry, had expressed grave doubts about the weather on that October morningso much so that, when he got his first weather briefing from the Federal Aviation Administration at 7:15 AM, he wanted to cancel the flight.....

You would have to read 15 paragraphs to learn that, as the time for their scheduled 9:30 AM departure grew nearer, the weather had improved. In the 17th paragraph, we learn that, when Conry obtained an updated weather briefing around 8:30 AM, he received a new report that the wind at Eveleth was calm, visibility was three miles, light snow was falling, and the cloud ceiling was at 900 feet. OK, thats what I need, Conry said. At least, its above my minimums. Also buried in the story is a report that other planes flying in the area earlier that morning had taken on some ice, but nothing severe. So when you read the story carefully, you discover that weather wasnt a factor, after all.

Think about this, because it displays the power of newspaper reporters and editors to spin stories creating one impression or another. The headline, Pilot almost called off Wellstones fatal flight implies (a) that the weather was bad, (b) that the weather was probably responsible for the crash, and (c) that if Conry had only been more prudent, the crash would not have occurred. But when you actually read the story, it becomes obvious (a) that the weather was not bad, (b) that it could not have been responsible for the crash, and(c) that the pilot was very prudent, only proceeding when he had been reassured that the weather was fine. The impression created was the opposite of what the facts revealed! Read the story if you think I am making any of this up.

http://www.reader-weekly.com/Reader/Reader_Weekly/Jim_F...
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. Why ignore what Oberman said?
???
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. I was merely correcting the misperception
created by the pilot's quote regarding flight conditions, which ignored the fact he reversed his opinion, based on improved weather, more than an hour before departure.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. There was no misperception
He *did* want to cancel the flight that morning. Sure, he changed his mind, when the weather conditions improved marginally--- and now PW is dead.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #71
257. Read the NTSB report. The pilot was talking about conditions in DULUTH
when he said he wasn't going to make the trip.

When Wellstone's pilot got the MUCH BETTER conditions in Eveleth, he had another pilot coming from Eveleth talk to Wellstone to convince the Senator that the flight was safe.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #257
267. I bet the other pilot was in on the conspiracy
Pretty soon this conspiracy is going to have a cast of characters bigger than the NYC white pages. :eyes:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #267
280. Straw man.
I'm arguing that Wellstone's crash MAY OR MAY NOT have been caused by pilot incapacitation. Currently, it just seems like the most likely explanation to me.

Pilot incapacitation MAY OR MAY NOT have been caused by foul play.

Any putative foul play MAY OR MAY NOT have been a conspiracy.

Any putative conspiracy MAY OR MAY NOT have included the US federal government.

Contrast this to you, who unconvincingly argues that Wellstone's crash HAD TO BE an unexplained accident.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #280
282. Wrong, my lil' buckaroo!
"...Contrast this to you, who unconvincingly argues that Wellstone's crash HAD TO BE an unexplained accident...."

My theory is that there is no *e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e* whatsoever to indicate that it is anythin OTHER than an accident, and you have provided BUPKUS in the way of said 'evidence to the contrary', besides your own paranoid rantings!
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #282
337. Your whole purpose here is obvious
You just want to stop people from exploring this crash. You don't offer anything and diligently take the official line presented. I've watched this tit for tat for nearly a year now at differant topics. You and jakey and a couple of others come out of the blue when ever stickdog is present.

I just notified stickdog of the topic today and you guys show up too.


What branch of the intelligence community do you work for?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #337
346. Get your facts straight
1.) I haven't been here for a year.

2.) I was posting in and to this topic long before your buddy.

3.) I'm a college student, not one of 'them'. *eerie, spooky, sinister music*
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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #346
347. Using the conspiracy theory to justify the conspiracy theory
Anybody who doesn't believe the conspiracy theory
must be in on it.



Karl Rove is paying them in strawberries. I just know it.




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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #347
349. Mmmm hmmm...
God forbid that anyone would suggest that an airplane flying in lousy, marginal weather would crash and kill *Paul Wellstone*; obviously, people like PW never die in tragic, yet thoroughly mundane ways--- they are always murdered by some insidous cabal... /sarcasm off
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. Does anyone have a single shred
of non-circumstantial credible evidence to substantiate the claim that Wellstone's death was an accident?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. That's nonsensical
You can't disprove a negative.
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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. The burden of proof is on the conspiratorials
I swear that some of these people blame Karl Rove
and Bush if they get a flat tire.

It's just as nutty as the old Clinton death list
that the right used to e-mail one another.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Ain't that the truth? n/t
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #76
86. He means those accusing of a conspiracy must prove it.
The burden of proof is on those making the accusation. Care to shed anything other than speculative and circumstantial evidence?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. They would, if they could
Sadly, the only items worthy of the name 'evidence' contradict their :tinfoilhat: theories...
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #88
204. What is sad it that your mindset that all mysterious plane crashes MUST
be considered accidents unless PROVEN otherwise.

It's no wonder why plane crashes has been a preferred CIA method of assassination for a long time, now is it?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #204
213. care to *prove* that statement? n/t
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #213
215. It's never happened in Africa or Indonesia or the USSR.
Right?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #215
225. Do you need the word 'proof' defined for you?
That does not constitute 'proof'; specifically, that is called 'anecdotal' evidence. get back to me when you understand what 'proof' means.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #225
235. Can you prove that you are really a Dean supporter? (NT)
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. See post #58
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Post #58 says:
"Does anyone have a single shred of non-circumstantial credible evidence to substantiate the claim that Wellstone's death was murder?

I cannot believe 54% (so far) believe in was a "conspiracy." You know the republicans also use aliens that shape shift and take on the form of Democrats like Joe Liebermann - ooooooooooooooh uh-huh! Think about it!

My uncle's cousin's nephew's brother's mom's barber's trash man's gynocoloist's pet turtle's sister-in-law actually SAW the alien take Joe's shape!

Next up: Face of Satan appears in smoke over Wellstone wreckage - read all about it in the Daily News. And if that comment offends you, its not more offensive than I found completely groundless conspiracy theories.

:tinfilhat::tinfilhat::tinfilhat::tinfilhat::tinfilhat: "

This helps your case HOW?
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. By pointing out truth in the midst of what I guess are a bunch of wackos
Seriously, these poll numbers are disturbingly irrational.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. Yep
I'm ready to order some heavy-duty anti-psychotics to pass out around here... :tinfoilhat:
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. us wackos also know of a Salem Bin Laden
who mysteriously crashed in Texas in 1988 after Bush got in trouble with the BCCI.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. OK
It was a fatal accident, so the FAA would have been involved. Link to their findings, please?
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #94
126. Dude they're in on it too don't you know?
EEEK!
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #126
208. Appeal to ridicule (NT)
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #83
207. Spoken like a true Clarkie
who is 100% certain that a General would never lie about anything.

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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #73
89. LOL - learn what proving a negative means
Asking for evidence of a conspriacy is not a negative. You are asking for proof that something IS true, which is appropriate.

On the other hand, demanding proof that it was NOT a conspiracy is attempting to prove a negative and is not appropriate.

The burden of proof is always on the one making the accusation. You must prove that a consiracy occured.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Wait... am I misunderstanding you?
I'm reading your other posts and I can't tell if I'm msiunderstnading what you're saying.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #90
93. Yes, you're misunderstanding me
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 03:44 PM by Padraig18
My 'you can't disprove a negative' comment was just as you said--- they can't ask me to DIS-prove a conspiracy. :hi:
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #93
122. Well, in the words of Jack Nicholson....
aren't I the fucking asshole. :D
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #89
209. Asking for proof it was an accident is NOT proving a negative.
Go back to logic school, Columbo.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #58
124. It's an OPINION POLL, not a fucking grand jury indictment
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 07:23 PM by 0rganism
I don't have to have "non-circumstantial credible evidence" (a matter of YOUR opinion, BTW) in order to form an opinion of my own. (Incidentally, I've sat on a jury for a criminal trial that was ENTIRELY based on circumstantial indirect evidence.)

If you think Wellstone's crash was an accident, good for you. Some people here think otherwise. If you're embarrassed to be in a minority on this topic, you don't have to choose to associate with DU.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #58
188. Yet you believe it was an accident without any explanation.
How rational. :eyes:
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #188
191. The "explanation" that matters....
will be presented shortly by the NTSB.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #191
211. Really?
When?
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #211
212. It seems that I read...
12-14 months as a rule...perhaps the notoriety of this crash might add to that period...we'll see.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
92. The right question to ask, still theoretical
How probable are the following two events?

A small plane accident kills a frequent flyer.

A politician is assassinated, in a fashion made to look like an accident.

Both of these events have occurred in the past. In neither case can we state the probability of the event at a given time on a given flight with absolute precision, given the million-and-one variables: weather, pilot, type of plane, or (on the assassination side) the complications that might arise in the attempt, etc. etc.

The odds of an uncomfortable politician being assassinated are almost certainly comparable - I'd guess higher - than the odds of a frequent flyer dying in a plane accident, but how do we define "uncomfortable politician," uncomfortable to whom, is it really worth "their" time to get him, etc. etc.

Given the above self-evident considerations, ruling out either possibility in advance of study is obviously insupportable, and almost certainly the product of bias.

There is no neutral hypothesis in this case, just two possible explanations, with no reason to favor either in advance of looking at the facts.

We also need not adhere to a legal presumption of innocence, since we are not actually trying anyone in a court of law. We are engaging in a discussion, asking, logically: Is this an accident or murder? Both are known to happen.

But here is one difference: Accident research is primarily forensic research, with psychology playing a role in the moment-to-moment actions of the actors on the scene. Whereas assassinations are willed acts (i.e., the odds of someone *plotting* to assassinate someone are either zero or one hundred percent). The assassination hypothesis therefore has to consider more than the forensic remains, the weather, or the pilot's state. It must also consider historical precedents, timing, suspects, motives, means - sticky and unclear things, compared to a burnt-out wreck, but things that can and do exist!

Now look at the timing: an accident can happen on any flight, though weather and the pilot's shape changes the chances, etc.

If you were an enemy of Wellstone who wanted him dead and his political legacy undone, however, you would almost certainly pick any day up until the very day he died - the last day before his name would have stayed on the ballot.

He had become the leader of the antiwar movement in the Senate. In the months that followed his death, he would have likely arisen as the leader of the nationwide opposition to Bush and the war.

Again, anyone who automatically rules out either hypothesis (or calls for "proof" before acknowledging that both hypotheses are valid for study) is either an idiot or in denial about how corrupt any nation can be, including the United States.

A successful assassination would obviously aim to make it difficult to prove. (If the plane was jammed electronically from the ground, you can forget about proving jack!)

Interesting that the head NTSC investigator on the Wellstone case, Carol Carmody, lists 10 years of work at the CIA on her resume.

But I forgot, the CIA are the good guys now, working hard to protect us from WMDs and free us of Bush. No one involved with them would have a general interest to sweep uncomfortable facts under the rug.

Anyway, it is ridiculous to attack anyone for having their obvious suspicions about the Wellstone case. Wondering about the chances that a suspicious death was an assassination on a message board should not qualify you for insults, doubts about your sanity or name-calling.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #92
99. excellent post
You've redeemed the thread, Jack. Well done! :toast:
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #92
115. Must Take Eception - As a Pilot, There is No Credible Evidence

That the plane was sabotaged or that the pilots were incapacitated.

The comment about jamming does not hold up because the wreckage revealed no evidence of any device to receive such a signal.

If the argument is that navigation signals were jammed, once again that does not hold water because missed instrument approach procedures demand a missed approach if the pilot cannot acquire the runway visually once clearing the clouds.

The accident does suggest pilot error or a yet to be undetected malfunction.

If you want to go down the conspiracy path, there is an equally dubious yet never mentioned option. The plane was crashed by private individuals not government agents.

I honestly don't think this could be kept a secret otherwise.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #115
132. You're answering as a pilot,
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 08:00 PM by Minstrel Boy
and I appreciate the experience you bring to the discussion, but as Jack said, "The assassination hypothesis therefore has to consider more than the forensic remains, the weather, or the pilot's state. It must also consider historical precedents, timing, suspects, motives, means - sticky and unclear things, compared to a burnt-out wreck, but things that can and do exist."

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #115
214. They set up a stronger VOR beacon in the woods to draw the plane
off course. Then they hit the pilots with something incapacitating (microwaves?).

Then they made sure the remains and debris were burning, went back to their "service truck" and drove away.

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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #214
218. *proof*?
:tinfoilhat:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #218
236. There is no proof either way. I was just countering the claim that
no possible conspiracy explanations make sense.

Let's see the proof that it was an accident.

In fact, let's just see a reasonable explanation for an accident.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #236
245. In the absence of any factual evidence of this 'theory'
Your 'countering' isn't--- it's just plain absurd.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:49 PM
Original message
Like your accident theory? (NT)
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #92
123. The only thing that is ridiculous around here....
Is continuing to hype us theories back with zero credible evidence.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #123
216. Like the accident theory you're hyping? (NT)
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
98. This is pretty embarrassing.
I can only hope that the freepers have freeped this poll.

C'mon people. Let's not get too paranoid here.
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TKP Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #98
108. Admin.
>C'mon people. Let's not get too paranoid here.

Sir, I will grant you that. Paranoid may be too light a sentence. Being new here, I'm still hoding out hope. But some of these things like this and saying the USA is fascist and so forth quite frankly worrys me. And to this point, I've noticed this type of attitude seemingly permiates this place. I know you said this is a BIG tent, but the tent is in areas I never imagined. Stuff like this sounds like Lu-Lu Land, and it won't sell on Main Street, USA.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Yes we are a bunch a kooks
who live in Lu-Lu land, we are not in touch in reality and won't be unless we say Bush is a great leader. In reality homeland gestapo act was step 1 into facism, the patriot act was only step 2(uh-oh crazy talk) into facism, patriot act II will be step 3 if we can stop it from being passed.
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theemu Donating Member (531 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #110
145. Godwin's Law
As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #145
196. whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost
Just saw the Pianist last night.

Why do people have such a tough time accpeting that men like to mass forces and compete to wipe out their competitors.

Forget the human costs, those can easily be ignored by the leaders driving the whole thing.

Why do people think that much of man that this "can't happen again"?

Look at what we just did to Afganistan and Iraq - and you say "Lets not get paranoid"?

You people need to wake up and smell the coffee - the patterns of history are right in front for all to see - why would you believe that the pattern has stopped?
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #108
125. wait a minute... the US *is* fascist :)
Some one has the FDR quote as their signature: "The liberty of a Democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power."

Sounds like a country I know that will remain nameless...
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #98
117. I concur.
The rate of Senators dying in office is relatively high.

From 1989-2002:

Sen. Spark Matsunka (D-HI) (1990)
Sen. John Heinz (R-PA) (1991)
Sen. John Chafee (R-RI) (1999)
Sen. Paul Coverdell (R-GA) (2000)
Gov. Mel Carnahan (D-MO) (2000) <--- included because his death created a vacancy in the Senate
Sen. Paul Wellstone (D-MN) (2002)
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AquariDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #98
118. No different than freeps blaming Clinton
for every single undesirable thing that happens in this country. Sheesh.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #98
169. Not really because there is no definitive proof either way
for the record I chose undecided.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #98
217. Appeal to authority (NT)
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
104. He was basically killed by McGaa...he wouldn't have had to work so hard
to save his seat had a GREEN not run against the most liberal Dem in the senate.
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Loyal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. I agree
The damned Greens will target every Dem no matter how liberal they are. To them it is all about power, and building their party up so they can rule the world. It makes me sick, and I hope that we tighten down the ballot access laws even more. I hope that we can increase petition requirements for ballot access so that the Greens will have to work harder to earn their spot on the ballot.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Hi <waves>
funny post and somewhat true.
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onebigbadwulf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. Heres why
I only think it was no accident because almost the exact same thing happened to another democrat recently.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. Funny how they are
Democrats...doncha think? The repukes know that most people will roll their eyes ...like this... :eyes: at the conspiracy thing. IT'S a PERFECT crime. Those loony libs at it again....sluthing where there's nothing to sluthe....

ya, uh huh, ok, whatever you say, okee dokee....those planes with Democrats just happened to crash right before their elections. WHY should we be suspicious? SILLY us!
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. Yes. Silly us!
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
112. PLEASE read this article
posted on this thread....http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

For those who think small aircraft crashes that just "accidentally" happen when the BFEE are around, have a read. Just ONE more plane down.....guess who was in office? Guess who was good friends with Enron's Ken Lay? Guess who died in the plane. Guess WHY they died. Then read on about all the dead Tanzanians. Very enlightening stuff by Greg Palast.....a GREAT investigative journalist who better stay off of small aircraft. :(
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
119. Gary Caradori
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 06:53 PM by Minstrel Boy
was the chief investigator of the Nebraska legislature's Franklin committee. He'd uncovered testimony and evidence of a child prostitution ring which implicated senior Republicans in the state and in Washington with the knowledge of VP Bush, and operated with the protection of the FBI and the CIA (call boys being used to ensnare VIPS for the purposes of blackmail), all tied to a S&L which was apparently laundering money for Iran/Contra.

Caradori called the committee chief to say he had the smoking gun. "We've got them! There's no way they can get out of it now!" Returning from Chicago with evidence, his small plane broke up midair. A farmer witnessed a flash of light and heard an explosion. The wreckage was examined at a military base and ruled an accident. His briefcase was never recovered.

What's this to do with Wellstone?

Well, maybe Caradori's crash was an accident, too. Cliff Baxter may have killed himself with rat shot. Maybe Bush even came to be president by mere happenstance. Perhaps he really was as surprised as we were by 9/11, and it was just good fortune that he was taking Cipro before the Anthrax letters were mailed. Maybe they're all just happy accidents for Bush and his crowd.

Myself, I think the times demand the prudence of assuming otherwise.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #119
130. I had never heard that story
holy crap! The list goes on and on and on...I have to add Hatfield, the Author of "Fortunate Son", to the list of "accidents" close to the BFEE. I don't believe he committed suicide. He was THREATENED by a Bush employee, not to write the book. They threatened Hatfield's family too. I don't believe for a minute that his death was due to suicide. JMCPO
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
120. Kick
:kick:
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
127. Thanks for This Poll!
This gets added to my standard line about DU being "50% self-described socialists, 40% self-described revolutionaries," for those people who foolishly try to claim that DU is somehow representative of either America or the Democratic Party.

DTH
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InkAddict Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
128. Double or nothing
Thought they'd get Teddy too but the top payoff got foiled when the imaginary player failed to deposit the maximum bet into the slot, er airplane. Isn't everyone always "running late?" Mother Nature provided a neat cover, and a wee bitty jackpot keeps the players playin'so the house wins!
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NewJerseyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
129. This is ridiculous
Nobody has any evidence that Wellstone's death was anything except an unfortunate accident. It is really outrageous to accuse people of murder without having any proof at all.

Also, the Bush Administration, even if they did kill their political opponents (which I don't think is the case), wouldn't want to kill Paul Wellstone. Everyone should at least admit that the race was quite close in Minnesota. I understand that Wellstone may have been leading slightly but I definitely know it was close and Coleman may have won anyway. After Wellstone's death the race should have gone easily to the democrats (just look at Carnahan in Missouri). If it weren't for the idiots at the "memorial service", Mondale would have won. The republicans wouldn't want to kill Wellstone because it would backfire.

And, wouldn't you think that Bush would be a little worried that people would find out? If the public became aware of this murder then he would be sent to prison and the it would make Watergate look like a tiny scandal. The republican party would collapse and democrats would be in power for decades. I don't think Bush would take the risk.

I don't really think that Bush is evil. I know I'm probably about the only one here that thinks that but I have no reason to think that he is a horrible person. I think that he is wrong, perhaps stupid and even somewhat mean, but I don't necessarily think that he likes going around killing people. Maybe he does, but I seriously doubt it.

These accusations of murder are just paranoia and irrational anger.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #129
131. Did you read Al Franken's book
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 07:47 PM by in_cog_ni_to
yet? He gives a totally different account of that Memorial service for Wellstone. It's quite different from what Bush's media reported and Al Franken was THERE! Maybe you should read it? It was NOT at all the way you saw it on TV. Trust me.

Why would Bush be concerned about anyone learning ANYTHING he has done since he's been in office? The media is kissing his ass and are completely out of touch with journalistic ethics....they have no ethics anymore. They won't expose a damn thing he does because they've all been threatened by the WH. This crap won't end until he's gone!

Bush is evil alright...no-one will ever convince me otherwise.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #129
147. How long you been on the board?
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #147
158. Irrelevant - if you have credible evidence, post it now.
Not speculation, not plausibility; hard, concrete evidence.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #158
162. "hard concrete evidence"?
Do you hold everything to such a standard before you're ready to form an opinion as to what criminals in high office are capable of? Does "plausible denial" mean anything to you?

Did you read about the FBI's suspiciously early arrival on the scene? The lack of black boxes? The oddly burning fuselage and the blue smoke?

Do you know his life was endangered in Colombia by a runway bomb? His plane "accidentally" sprayed with herbicide?

Do you know what kind of enemies he had made? Do you accept how fortuitous his death was to them?

Do you know weather was not a factor? And catastrophic mechanical failure was extremely unlikely?

"Aviation research meteorologist Ben Bernstein, of the National Center for Atmospheric Research, told Minnesota Public Radio that his analysis for the NTSB concluded icing was not likely a major problem at the time the plane crashed.

"'There's no way for us to know for certain how severe the conditions may have been, but looking at the data we did look at, it didn't appear to be a particularly severe situation,' according to Bernstein. If heavy ice wasn't a factor, could there have been a mechanical catastrophe?

"Although fire destroyed much of the aircraft, the NTSB does know the plane was apparently in good shape just hours before its last flight.

"'I'm confident that when I left the aircraft that to the best of my knowledge that airplane was in fine working order,' says Jason Rivera, who piloted the same King Air on a round trip to North Dakota which ended at the St. Paul Airport around 7 p.m. the evening before the crash."
http://news.mpr.org/features/2003/03/03_zdechlikm_wells... /

Perhaps it was the power of White House prayer that brought down the plane? :shrug:
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #162
416. Yes. I do hold everything to the standard of credible evidence....
because making conclusions on nothing but circumstantial speculation is the height of stupidity.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #158
238. Please post your hard, concrete evidence that Wellstone's plane crashed
accidentally.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #238
417. The burden of proof is on you to prove a conspriacy.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #417
423. Bullshit. We are discussing two competing speculative theories.
Edited on Wed Oct-22-03 03:34 PM by stickdog
Therefore, the burden of proof is equaivalent. And you haven't met the barest threshhold.
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #129
170. Wait a minute -
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 11:54 AM by bitchkitty
I don't really think that Bush is evil. I know I'm probably about the only one here that thinks that but I have no reason to think that he is a horrible person. I think that he is wrong, perhaps stupid and even somewhat mean, but I don't necessarily think that he likes going around killing people. Maybe he does, but I seriously doubt it.

We're talking about a man who has sent and is sending hundreds of young men and women to their deaths? Which is worse - intentionally doing this for the sheer joy of doing it, simply because one's character is evil, or doing it for Halliburton, and being indifferent to the deaths of these people? To me, the latter is the epitome of evil.

He might not be cackling and rubbing his hands together in glee, but he more than fits the definition of true evil. And I don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to know that.

edited for missing phrase
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #129
275. your false assumptions, not mine...
you make it sound as though the skeptics here believe an assassination would be the result a top-down order, involving Bush himself as evil mastermind. But that kind of micromanagement of government crime, direct from the top, went out with Nixon, for obvious reasons. That is not how it works in a well-run mafia, where underlings can figure out for themselves what would be best for the cause. Many are the true believers and opportunist operatives, scattered in countless holes and covers, who work autonomously for the success of the overall project. I expect that to Bush himself, or to Rove for that matter, the possible murder of Wellstone came as a pleasant surprise.

Your second false assumption, at least with regard to my posts, is that I have accused anyone. I have not. This is not a trial. There is no need for a presumption of innocence. I am merely keeping an open mind about the two possible explanations for Wellstone's death. It might have been an accident, but given the timing and the history of suspiciousl small-plane crashes murder seems to me the more plausible explanation. Certainly I can imagine a lot of people were happy at the news of his elimination, but I don't have the evidence to accuse any particular one, and if it was murder then the murderers would have intended for it to work out exactly that way.

I would also expect that the odds of such a murder succeeding would be excellent, nearly certain, given that so far in the United States, murders of this type have almost always succeeded, even when done in painfully obvious fashion (see Kennedy). In part this is because of the logical fallacy under which certain people here also seem to suffer, that there is a neutral hypothesis in this case. There is not. There are two possible explanations and no reason for anyone posting here to be certain of either.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #129
345. This might sway your opinion on that...
Edited on Wed Oct-22-03 04:18 AM by Zhade
Evil? Maybe, maybe not. Depraved? You bet. Read the underlined portion:





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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
133. An FBI team was
securing the perimiter, and witnessed by Eveleth-Virginia airport personnel, no more than 45 minutes after the crash was confirmed. The FBI had not been notified of a crash. The agents were from Minneapolis/St Paul, not the closer Duluth. The FBI has since been evasive about the arrival of the team, even moving the time back to 3:30.

Since the FBI contingent came from Minneapolis, it must have departed no later than 9:30 AM to make it to Duluth around 10:50 AM and arrive at the scene by noon. Remarkable, considering the crash only occurred at 10:20 and was verified at 11:00. So they were heading north to cover a crash that had yet to occur at approximately the same time that plane was taking off. And again, the FBI had not been notified of a crash.

The aircraft used by Wellstone is often equipped with black boxes. None were said to have been recovered.

The fuselage burned for hours emitting blue smoke. The aircraft's kerosene fuel, which was stored in tanks in its wings, should have emitted thick, black smoke instead. Why was the fuselage burning rather than the wings, especially when the wings were found separated from the fuselage?

The NTSB investigator was a 10-year veteran of the CIA.

The crash occured on the last day Wellstone's name could be removed from the ballot.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. omg. n/t
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #133
171. more on the FBI's arrival:
According to Rick Wahlberg, Sheriff of St. Louis County, a team of FBI agents were quickly on the crash site at about noon, less than an hour after Ulman and the chief had first located the site and found a way to access the wreck. This FBI team had come from the distant Twin Cities in record time!

American Free Press asked Ulman if he had contacted the FBI to inform them of the location. He said he had not spoken with the bureau at any time. Asked how the FBI got to the site so quickly, Ulman said that he assumed they had come from Duluth.

AFP contacted the Duluth office of the FBI and was told that the team of "recovery" agents had NOT come from Duluth, but had travelled from the FBI office in Minneapolis, some 150 nautical miles south, or 40 minutes flying time.

The FBI deserves to congratulated for its speed in responding to the crash of Wellstone's plane in the distant north woods of Minnesota's Iron Range. A FBI evidence "recovery" team was at the crash site at around 12 noon, a mere 45 minutes after the crash site had been located by Gary Ulman and the local fire chief.

The FBI agents were then able to secure the perimeter and examine the site for some 8 hours before the NTSB agents arrived at 20:20 (8:20 p.m.) and poked about in the darkness. The FBI deserves credit for being "right on the spot!"
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=265
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #171
327. yoo hoo, coincidence theorists - up here.
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 07:38 PM by Minstrel Boy
Anyone care to take a shot at explaining how an FBI recovery team from Minneapolis arrived on the scene within 45 minutes of the crash having been located, though Minneapolis is a 40-minute flight away, and despite the FBI's not having been notified about a crash? They secured the perimeter and had the site to themselves for eight hours before the arrival of the NTSB. No red flags here?
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #133
334. HOT!!! FBI nailed for stealing evidence from WTC crime scene!!
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 08:55 PM by 9215
Minneapolis Emergency Response team that looked at Wellstone's crash was accused of stealing evidence from the WTC!!!!!!

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=271

Agents from the FBIs Minneapolis Evidence Response Team have been accused of stealing evidence from the site of the World Trade Center, where they had been sent to investigate. The stolen evidence was a valuable Tiffany crystal paperweight taken from a WTC evidence bag. .........
........Turner is the second Minneapolis agent to accuse bureau personnel of wrongdoing. Earlier this year, FBI Agent Coleen Rowley accused officials at FBI headquarters of mishandling information developed in Minneapolis concerning 9/11 suspect Zacharias Moussaoui........

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #334
338. good catch!
And from the same article, more on the unusually-coloured smoke and the intense fire which consumed the fuselage, though the wings, containing the fuel tanks, had separated:

Gary Ulman, professional pilot and assistant manager of the Eveleth airport, heard radio reports that a plane was missing and took off about 10:55 to look. Ulman told AFP that while he saw light bluish-grayish smoke coming up from the trees 2.1 miles south of the airport, he didnt think that it could be the plane because that was way too far off course.

AFP asked Ulman several times to clarify the color of the smoke because his description of light blue smoke coming from the crash site is different from the expected thick black smoke that is usually seen coming from fires in which aviation fuel is the primary substance burning.

Ulman flew over the smoke and told AFP that he saw a hot and intense fire consuming the planes fuselage on the ground. He returned to the airport and took the local fire chief up to survey the crash site and determine how to access the wreck from the ground. Ulman told AFP that on this flight, at about 11:15 a.m., he saw that the burning fuselage had nearly disintegrated. He said the planes tail and wings had been detached from the body of the plane. It is important to note that the King Airs fuel tanks are located in the wings of the plane; there is no fuel tank in the fuselage.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #338
359. This topic is a clusterfuck!
I tell you, the tit for tat exchanges on this topic have ruined it. There is alot of good information here, but it is hard to see in the morass.

There was discussion at some time since this crash about the intense fire that just conveniently destroyed material evidence. But this Emergency Response Team, who they were, how they were assigned, etc. is what got me. If they jumped the gun on heading for the crash site then pre-knowledge by someone is almost a certainty. They wanted to get there first to keep prying eyes from finding out the truth.

The process of this needs clarification. Who got the call at the desk, where did the call come from, was this normal procedure, etc.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
139. From: "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" by Greg Palast
Page 117 (paperback edition)

"On April 19, 1980, Jacob "Jake" Horton, senior vice president of Southern Company's Gulf Power unit, boarded the company plane to confront his board of directors over the company's accounting games and illegal payments to local politicians. Minutes after take off, the plane exploded."

Just another lucky coincidence for the bad guys...No one would sabotage a plane. How can anyone even suggest such a thing? (sarcasm on)
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
140. In the end, it's a "gut" feeling
My gut tells me that Wellstone's death was just another in a long line of the Military Industrial Complex's Black Operations.

A half century devoted to the subjugation of true Democracy in favour of Corporate Fascism. These covert Black Ops go hand in hand with the overt Culture War that has been declared on progressives, liberals and libertarians alike.

Unfortunately, since the evidence for these crimes are generally buried, purged or destroyed through the old shell game of "National Security" and whether or not such revelations are "in the nation's interest" - it's very unlikely that there will ever be an accounting.

Crime does indeed pay. And well.

http://www.assassinationscience.com /

http://www.assassinationscience.com/PaulWellstone.pdf
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
141. But the authorities ruled out foul play, and they wouldn't lie.
Just what was the official cause of the crash? Last I heard, it was changed from weather (after radar eliminated the "icing" story) and changed to pilot error. Hard to check that one, eh?

The bush regime is truthful, and they all know they work as our representatives at our pleasure.

THAT is rediculous.

The 2000 selection, 9*11, the 2002 selection - including Wellstone's murder, etc...

Those are just a few tips of iceburgs encountered by the USS America in the last two and a half years. The timing, the end result, all give the bush gang an unprecedented, and otherwise impossible advantage.

To me, the official story of 2000 and 9*11 are totally bunk. Believe what you see and hear and feel on a gut level, not what you're told. Wellstone was the only, if memory serves (which is hard, because its just been one opportune tragedy after another since Dec 2000 - hard as hell to keep track), but I believe Wellstone was one of the few, if not the only Senator to openly oppose bush's rush to invade Iraq. And he was climbing in the polls, leading Coleman. He dies, the spin machine kicks into high gear re: his memorial and what happens? bushco now rule the Senate (tho the GA backup helped as well).

To paraphrase some evil repuke, whose name I've thankfully forgotten, in order to believe the official story on this and many major events with political repercussions, you almost have to disavow your own senses and instincts.

As far as the Wellstone "accident" - I knew, as soon as I first got news of it, from DU and MSNBC, I knew that he had been murdered. Knew it in my bones. Still believe it completely. Its just too perfect for the bush regime, just too perfect after so many other too perfect "tragedies".

Why ridicule those who can smell the bs? Thankfully more here than not, imho. There are dots begging to be connected. The first question should always be - "who benifits?"

Imho.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
143. I said undecided, though I lean towards "planned"
I don't want to convict them yet, though it seems like a remarkable coincidence that liberals keep dying in plane crashes.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
144. I really do not know
That being aside, it would be well advised on any basis for democratic candidates to just stay out of small aircraft. We seem to have trouble with them. Perhaps our guys don't know how to pick dependable aircraft... It is however quite clear that roo much can go "wrong" with them.

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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
146. Wellstone was a serious threat to Halliburton/Dresser .
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 09:39 PM by 9215
From:
<http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:uB2IDWMw-FUC:wells... >
April 18, 2000
Wellstone Stands With Steelworkers in Opposing Asbestos Legislation
Bills Before Congress Would Rob Victims of Their Basic Rights
(Eveleth, MN) --Senator Paul Wellstone, joining steelworkers in Eveleth today, announced his opposition to a proposed settlement which would prevent workers afflicted with asbestos-related illnesses from collecting the compensation they deserve. Wellstone said legislation before Congress, if passed, would deprive workers of their basic right to receive just compensation for illnesses they unknowingly contracted while working in factories polluted with asbestos.

"This legislation is a slap in the face to steelworkers and other Minnesotans who struggle to put a roof over their families' heads and put food on the table; never mind pay high medical bills for diseases they contracted for doing nothing more than putting in an honest day's work," Wellstone said. "It would rob them of their right to just compensation, it would rob them of their right to see justice served on those responsible for making them sick, and it would rob them of their right to get their lives back on track. I will do everything I can to honor the labor of these workers, and friends like Bruce Vento, by fighting this legislation in the Senate."


Here the SOB's decide that letting people be exposed to asbestos is worth the "price".

White House nixed asbestos warning: link to article of 12/29/02 : "White House thwarted asbestos- insulation warning": http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/13460...
snip
"WASHINGTON - The Environmental Protection Agency was on the verge of warning millions of Americans that their attics and walls might contain asbestos-contaminated insulation. But the White House intervened at the last minute, and the warning never has been issued.
The agency's refusal to share its knowledge of what is believed to be a widespread health risk has been criticized by a former EPA administrator under two Republican presidents, a Democratic U.S. senator and physicians and scientists who have treated victims of the contamination. "


Before Cheney was VP the Seattle Post Intelligencer ran an article (August 4, 2000) " Cheney's Firm Backed Bill to Limit Asbestos Liability" :
"Dick Cheney and the giant energy company he will leave to run for vice president have contributed more than $150,000 to members of Congress who sponsored legislation that would limit the ability of workers to sue companies for asbestos exposure. "

Was the WH stopping the announcement a quid pro quo for past favors?

Article can be viewed at http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/080400-02.htm

<http://www.msnbc.com/local/pisea/102011.asp?cp1=1 >
Murray promises to renew push for asbestos warnings
By ROBERT MCCLURE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
Dec. 30 - After revelations that the Bush administration squelched public health warnings about a widely used form of insulation that contains cancer-causing asbestos, Sen. Patty Murray vowed yesterday to renew her fight for a public education campaign. Murray, D-Wash., said she will demand an explanation this week for why warnings planned last spring by the Environmental Protection Agency were called off at the last minute by high-ranking Bush administration officials.

Internal EPA documents show that about 15 million to 35 million of the nation's approximately 105 million households contain a brand of insulation known as Zonolite. Mined for decades in Libby, Mont., Zonolite contains a particularly lethal form of asbestos known as tremolite. "I just find it astounding that when this kind of information is available that can save people's lives, that this administration has decided to keep that secret and not let people know," Murray said. "Here's a health risk we can do something about."
Murray's co-sponsor, Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn., died in October in a plane crash.

W.R. Grace says the insulation is safe, and wrote a letter to the EPA in April insisting that no health warnings are necessary.

In addition to its use in insulation, the brownish-pink vermiculite was contained in garden products, cement mixtures and many other products. One of those products was as fireproofing in ceiling tiles used widely in schools and federal office buildings. Helping manufacture those tiles as a side job while in college likely gave Brian Harvey of Marysville mesothelioma, a disease caused only by exposure to asbestos.

Harvey criticized the Bush administration's decision to pull the public health warning. "I have a real problem with that," Harvey said. "That I consider unforgivable."
"At the top levels of the Bush administration, they are maintaining this cloak of secrecy that I can't imagine the people who I've worked with at the EPA are very happy about," Murray said. "Hopefully, the public will start crying out for Congress and the administration to do something about this.


Note: Then the Right-Wing attack on Patty Murray for being an OBL "symp" when she spoke to a class. Timed well with Murray's attack on Trent Lott and her renewed interest in the WH nixing the asbestos warning.

One coincidence, two coincidence, three coincidence....four.....please don't tell me it's a coincidence anymore.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
148. The suspicion that it was an assassination
is definitely bubbling under the surface and will not go away.

I was living in Oregon when the crash happened, and people who knew I was from Minnesota would mention the crash to me and then ask almost surreptiously,"Do you think it was really an accident?"

The last time this happened was when I went to visit my 92-year-old great aunt. We were bewailing the Bush administration (she's a senior activist who has worked on health care issues), and she expressed the wish that Wellstone were still around. Then she added, "I don't think that crash was an accident."

As a mystery fan, I find motive, means, and opportunity in the Wellstone case, but I'm not any kind of an aviation expert, so I can't say for sure that the plane was sabotaged. But my gut feelings won't let me rule out the possibility, especially given the timing. I would not have had these suspicions if the crash had occurred in the summer of 2002, or if Wellstone had died of a some medical condition such as a heart attack.

But the only people who really know what happened (unless it was an assassination) are dead, so unless someone fesses up, we will be arguing this question for years to come.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
149. "Who is this chickenshit"? Poppy on Wellstone
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 10:53 PM by 9215
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srpantalonas Donating Member (372 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
150. incredibly heartbreaking.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
151. kicking
this interesting thread for morning people.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
152. "Paul Wellstone is a hunted man"
Wellstone was a hunted man (John Nichols)http://www.disinfo.com/pages/news/id2840/pg1 /

"Paul Wellstone, Fighter
originally posted May 9, 2002
Paul Wellstone is a hunted man. Minnesota's senior senator is not just another Democrat on White House political czar Karl Rove's target list, in an election year when the Senate balance of power could be decided by the voters of a single state. Rather, getting rid of Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the special-interest lobbies that fund the most sophisticated political operation ever assembled by a presidential administration. "There are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide confides. "This one is political and personal for them."
That has made it political and personal for Wellstone. The man who decided to abandon a self-imposed two-term limit on his Senate service at least in part because of his determination to block Bush's conservative agenda wears the target with pride. At a moment when most Democrats are still trying to figure out how to challenge a popular President, the former college wrestler is leaping into the ring. Wellstone is not running for cover; he is running to deliver a message about politics in a state and a nation that he believes to be far more progressive than the readers of political tea leaves in Washington could begin to imagine.


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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #152
173. and Rove handpicked Wellstone's opponent
Norm Coleman, and Wellstone was leading 47%--to 41% and the lead was growing.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=271

.......The senate race in Minnesota was seen as crucial for the White House. Bushs political director Karl Rove is said to have personally selected Coleman to challenge Wellstone in the November 5 election. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney frequently visited Minnesota to support Coleman.......

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amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
153. i'm satisfied they were murdered
The timing was too convenient, and the lies about the cause too quick on the draw, and when I checked the weather report at the site for the time/date in question, it was clear and above freezing, while it was described as foggy and below freezing on the news. There would be no motive to put out false weather reports and be ready with a false story if it wasn't a murder.


just common sense
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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #153
154. So then all the news people
who described the weather were all a part of the conspiracy
and they've all kept silent.

There was frost on my strawberries.


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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #154
157. Good question
I don't have the facts on the weather of that day in that locale, but there was a rush to say the cause of the accident was the weather. It would be nice to know exactly what the weather was and how that actual weather diverged from the media take.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #157
159. Wolf Blitzer kept stressing weather; reporter on the scene did not:
Reporter: "There is no evidence that weather had anything to do with the crash"
Blizter: "But the plane was flying into some sort of ice storm, was it not?"
Reporter: "There is no evidence that the weather had anything to do with the crash."
CNN then immediately cut away from the on-scene reporter permanently. A crawl along the bottom of the screen was observed to run just once or twice that stated: "Weather not a factor in crash." Yet CNN commentators continued to imply that the crash was weather-related.
http://www.unknownnews.net/cdd1120.html
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #159
161. Thanks, Please see my post #160
That the CIA has control of the Media is not a question in my mind. I'd just like to know how they intervened in this case.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #161
163. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #163
164. Fallacy: appeal to ridicule
Also Known as: Appeal to Mockery, The Horse Laugh.

Description of Appeal to Ridicule: The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument."



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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #163
165. We are exploring possibilities here.
It is obvious that you don't want that to happen. Why?

Please read post 160 before going off on the conspiracy nut angle.


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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #154
284. Gee...
Wishful thinking and naivete, convenient social consensus, the desire never to rock the boat, career concerns... do not exist. Dow to hit 36,000 next year!
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
155. ABC News, Dec 1, 2000: "US, Colombia Deny Assassination Attempt"
From ABC News, Dec 1, 2000:

Coincidence?
Bombs Found During U.S. Senators Colombia Visit, But Officials Deny Assassination Plot

Dec. 1 U.S. and Colombian officials today denied reports that U.S. officials visiting a remote Colombian town had been targeted in an assassination attempt.

Local police had discovered land mines near the airport in the town of Barrancabermeja where Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn., and U.S. Ambassador to Colombia Anne Patterson were scheduled to visit on Thursday.

Police Col. Jos Miguel Villar had said Wellstone and Patterson were the likely targets but could not absolutely confirm it.

But State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said during a briefing today in Washington: We have no evidence to suggest that anybody was trying to assassinate anybody.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/colombia...

...

Herbicide Douses US Senator
U.S. Sen. Paul Wellstone (D-MN), one of the few senators who opposed a $1.3 billion U.S. aid plan ostensibly directed at Colombias drug trade, headed a November 2830 fact-finding delegation to Colombia. While watching the Colombian National Police demonstrate its fumigation of coca plants, Wellstone and other members of his delegation were hit with a fine spray of the herbicide glyphosate from a helicopter flying less than 200 feet above them. Wellstone reportedly joked about the incident, but delegation member Pamela Costain, executive director of the Minneapolis-based Resource Center of the Americas, was upset: Im fearful about what theyre using, and I really didnt want to get it on me, she said.

Just before the incident, Lt. Col. Marcos Pedreros, the police official in charge of the spraying mission, had assured Wellstone that the spray posed no risk to humans, animals or the environment. Ironically, the U.S. Embassy in Colombia had just circulated materials to reporters, noting the "precise geographical coordinates" used to spray coca fields. According to embassy officials, a computer program sets precise flight lines with a 170-foot width, leaving little room for error.
http://www.americas.org/news/nir/20001210_herbicide_dou...

From AP, Dec 2, 2000:

Wellstone said he made the perilous journey to show support for the human rights activists, who face immense risk.

``I don't know whether I was targeted, but I certainly know that the human rights activists are targeted,'' Wellstone told an airport news conference on his return to Minneapolis on Friday.

For Wellstone, a former civil rights activist and college professor, his two-day visit to Colombia also was aimed at making a stand against Plan Colombia, a drug-eradication effort being funded by $1.3 billion from Washington. Under the plan, dozens of U.S.-donated combat helicopters will ferry U.S.-trained Colombian troops into cocaine-producing plantations to seize them from insurgents.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/120200-01.htm


So many accidents, so many coincidences. Poor guy had the worst luck. :eyes:
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
156. I blame some guy
with a high gain radar unit standing in the approach path and causing severe pain, blindness and panic in the pilot at a crucial moment.

The lookdown radar unit on a MiG can kill a Jack Rabbit at 300 yards.
It is enough to kill avionics and burn the flesh of someone trying to fly a plane. Remember the work on 'non-lethal' microwave wepons done recently for crowd control.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
160. "Expert".......a CIA plant?
The NTSB Report is short, sweet and to the point:
<http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2002/021217a.htm >
Note that this report never suggests icing as a probable cause of Wellstone's crash. Here is the totality of what it says about icing:
The pilot received two flight service weather briefings prior to the flight.
Specialists at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, are assisting the NTSB weather group in its efforts to more accurately define the icing conditions that existed along the accident flights route.


From the 12/15 Pioneer Press:
<http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/2002/12/15/n... >
The National Transportation Safety Board, which is conducting the official inquiry into the crash of the Beech King Air A100, has not publicly ruled out any cause. However, experts who have reviewed crashes for the NTSB and the Air Force suggest the near-freezing conditions in northern Minnesota could have caused the plane to drift off course.
Paul Czysz, an aviation expert with decades of experience in plane crashes and investigations, echoed other experts when he said that if no mechanical failures are detected, icing becomes a lead suspect.
"Even a little ice can get you into a stall,'' said Czysz, a professor emeritus at the St. Louis University Department of Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering. "You already are at a minimal speed. In landing, an eighth of an inch (of ice) is a disaster. Ice can cover in the blink of an eye.''
Safety board investigators already have reported that Conry and co-pilot Michael Guess were advised of icing that day at 5,000 to 11,000 feet, and they took the plane higher to avoid it. But the ground temperature at Eveleth was only a few degrees above freezing, which Czysz said could actually worsen any icing problems.
The wings and tail of the King Air A100 are equipped with ice boots, which can be inflated to burst heavy accumulations of ice. However, they are most effective when the ice is about a half-inch thick, Czysz said.
The plane was headed due west toward the runway when, minutes before landing, it inexplicably turned to the south. That turn, or roll, could have been caused by ice building up more heavily on one wing than the other, Czysz said.


So who is Paul Czysz, the "aviation expert with decades of experience in plane crashes and investigations" and "professor emeritus at the St. Louis University Department of Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering"?
From the second listing on google searching for "Paul Czysz":
<http://parks.slu.edu/ae_me/faculty/f_czysz.htm >
Note that his resume lists absolutely no experience in plane crashes and investigations!
What is does say is that this man is simply a lifetime defense contract employee. He's even working in a campus building named for the same defense contractor he's been employed by for 29 years!
His field of expertise is aerospace engineering--not aviation. His specialization is advanced propulsion systems, not aircraft safety. Note that the very same university he works at has a large aviation department:
<http://parks.slu.edu/aviation/faculty.htm >
And he is not among those listed.
He is a "professor emeritus" in name only. He lists no research papers on his webpage. He lists no teaching experience on his webpage. This guy didn't even get his bachelor's degree until 1995! And he doesn't even have a master's degree in his field of expertise, much less the field of aviation.
So how in the hell did two reporters in Minnesota deem a 29 year defense contractor propulsion systems engineer from Missouri--who has only had a bachelor's degree for seven years--the foremost expert on Minnesota charter aviation crashes?
Kinda makes you wonder, dunnit?

Question: How did Czysz become the spokesperson here? How did the Press find him, or he the Press.

The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media.
ex-CIA Director William Colby.

Note: Colby died in a mysterious boating accident. His body was found without a life jacket though those who boated with him said he was religious about wearing it.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
166. Wow.
Just....wow.
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JetJaguar Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
167. Should the Nav lights have been on?


http://www.startribune.com/style/news/politics/wellston...


...
A. ACCIDENT
Place : Eveleth, Minnesota
Date : October 25, 2002
Vehicle : Beech King Air A100, N41BA
NTSB No. : DCA03MA008
Investigator : Mike Hauf
B. COMPONENTS EXAMINED
Left wing navigational light
Right wing navigational light
Tail light
C. DETAILS OF THE EXAMINATION
The glass envelope for the left wing navigational light was broken away from the light bulb and no portion of the filament remained attached to the filament posts.A large portion of the glass envelope for the right wing navigational light was broken
away from the light bulb and the filament was fractured adjacent to each post. About 12 filament turns remained with one post and about four on the other. No evidence of hot stretching or severe relaxation of the filament coils was noted on the remaining filament pieces. The glass envelope for the tail light was intact. The light contained two filaments, and both were fractured through straight portions of the filaments adjacent to the posts. The filaments were visible inside the glass envelope as single pieces, and magnified optical examination through the glass envelope showed that the filaments did not contain hot stretching or severe relaxation of the coils.

James F. Wildey II
Supervisory Metallurgist


---------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some NTSB links that go into a little
detail on what "hot stretching " infers.


---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1996/HAR9601.pdf
...
All were examined by the Safety Boards materials laboratory. The examinations disclosed that although the filaments in some of the side marker lamps were broken, none of them showed any evidence of the hot stretching or deformation that typically occurs when illuminated lamps are subjected to impact forces. Although not conclusive, these examinations suggested that the side marker lights on the accident semitrailer were not illuminated at the time of the collision...



http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1996/RAR9604.pdf
...
The filament in the operator-side marker light bulb showed evidence of hot stretching, which is consistent with a hot filament that has been subjected to high impact forces...


http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR95-04.pdf
...
The left engine fire detection T-handle was recovered from the cockpit wreckage in the stowed or normal position. There was no evidence of hot stretching (elongation) of the bulb filaments in the T-handle that would occur when a hot filament receives an impact load...

----------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear Although not conclusive(ly) by the absence of hot stretching. Before impact the navigational lights were without power for some reason.

An unflicked switch?




I voted undecided.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #167
192. I Am a Commercial Pilot, Navigation Lights Are Not Used During Daylight

Nothing unusual.
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #192
203. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but...
aren't position (navigation) lights supposed to be illuminated during IFR operations, day or night?
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #203
296. Those May Be Company Requirements However

In Reviewing part 91.205 sections a, b, c

Day IFR operations would only require an anticolision beacon and not navigation lights.

Night IFR would require the use of the beacon above and navigation lights.

Note that navigation laights are meant for VFR operations since the intent is for others to see you. If you are in hard IFR conditions, it would not matter because you would be obscured from view by the weather.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
168. Nothing in the Middle...
like a category...suspicious...
I went for 2 coz it is very very suspect...But I would have prefered very very suspect
but I am not willing to go over to the dark side yet...BUT it is very very suspect indeed...
And should have had an independently appointed and enpowered investigator...
I mean this was not in context an ordinary private plane wreck--a popular incumbent campaigning during an election--should always be treated with suspicion so those so inclined to engage in political assassination are deterred and democracy doesn't end up like the Roman Senate...

'Hey Paul...is that a knife in your back or are you just unhappy to see us'
yuck yuck


and put a mention of Brother Paul on your poster
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #168
172. I thin democarcy ALREADY has wound up like the Roman Senate
And we have our "divinely appointed" Emperor Bunnypants* as proof.

Poor Wellstone, he never stood a chance.

Which, of course, was the same chance that Cicero stood.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
190. What strikes me as odd here
We've had at least two pilots post to this thread, one commercial and one private, and neither of them finds anything about the crash terribly suspicious.

Instead, we see people seizing on the "He said the weather was OK (20 minutes before/45 minutes after/15 miles away, etc)" when what we don't see is anyone recognizing that the primary pilot himself thought it below minimums earlier that morning, and only changed his mind later when it went above minimums--- minimums. *ding, ding* Can we all take a DEEP breath and say the word 'marginal' together without our heads exploding?

Who was responsible for airplane crashes before the BFEE came into being? Who's responsible for the hundreds of general-aviation fatalities that DON'T involve elected Federal officials? Does everyone here hear hoofbeats and scream 'zebras!' these days?

:eyes:
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #190
198. Make that 3...
The weather condition at a destination field is characterized by the degree to which it will impede your ability to complete a successful approach to landing. The field is either above minimums, at minimums or below minimums. "At minimum" conditions (such as those existing at Eveleth) may well result in a (or several) missed approach(es) with a return to your departure airport or to a designated alternate.

Was it a "PRIMARY" causative factor? Probably not. Was it a "CONTRIBUTIVE" factor? Without question, in that it mandated the execution of a non-precision approach in marginal (at best) weather conditions, one of the most mentally-taxing and skill-intensive procedures in aviation.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #198
206. 4, actually
I have a friend who's a private pilot with over 40 years behind the yoke(?) and 10K+ hours, and he says the same as do you. Horrible.... heartbreaking... tragic... shocking... but utterly ordinary, as general aviation goes.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #206
226. And we have a bunch of Clark sympathizers leading the charge against
"irrational conspiratorialists."

What a surprise that the same people who believe a Republican general would make a good Democratic candidate because HE SAYS HE'S NOW A DEMOCRAT would also freak out if anyone has the temerity to ask for some proof that a potential murder was an accident before blindly ascribing to coincidence theory.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #198
223. Without question?
The weather was fine.

There was no ice.

There was no wind.

Visibility was 3-4 miles.

The only problem was a trace of low fog.

There is NO evidence the weather played ANY factor in this crash.

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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #223
228. Yup...without question...
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 04:12 PM by Jakey
as you've been told ad nauseam by folks who understand.

The weather condition at a destination field is characterized by the degree to which it will impede your ability to complete a successful approach to landing.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #228
241. So you reject ANY POSSIBILITY of pilot incapacitation?
What evidence have you used to completely rule out this possibility?
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #241
256. The topic was your contention...
that the weather was "fine". It is an absurd contention on it's face.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #256
258. No, the topic was you contention that the weather was DEFINITELY
a contributing factor.

Considering the scant evidence that has been released, your contention is absurd.
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #258
263. You just don't get it....
The weather was a "contributing" factor in that it mandated the execution of a HIGHLY skill-intensive non-precision approach...an approach that can be DISASTROUS in the hands of a crew with questionable competence in cockpit resource management, instrument procedures or aircraft proficiency. There exists empirical evidence suggesting deficiencies in ALL THREE areas, when deficiencies in just ONE are enough to make for a very bad day of flying.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #263
268. IF the cause was pilot error, then the low clouds/fog were
almost certainly minor contributing factors.

But if the cause was pilot incapacitation, the weather may not have mattered one iota.
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #268
281. If the cause was "pilot incapacitation"....
then you are left with the rather uncomfortable task of explaining to us all how that aircraft managed to level itself at 400 feet above the ground (the altitude, BTW, SPECIFIED in the approach procedure) and then slow itself to below stall speed with an incapacitated crew.



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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #281
292. Damn you and your inconvenient facts, Jakey!
:P
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #292
303. Nice rejoinder, helium!
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #281
301. You've got those final radar returns for me, Jakey?
And if it was the pilot error YOU have to explain how the plane managed to veer a mile to the south of the VOR signal it was supposed to be locking on.

I think somebody may have set up a stronger, overriding VOR signal and then zapped our poor pilots when they were drawn off course. That would explain why the plane followed the approach procedure until the last minute.

But I've yet to see the radar returns that indicate exactly what happened over the last few minutes of flight.

Have you gotten ahold of them somehow?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #263
277. I've repeatedly tried to explain...
... that the weather he refers to as 'fine' was, in plain english my DOG would understand, 'marginal', a/k/a 'crappy'. He thinks because planes weren't being violently tossed down from the sky all over MN that it was just hunky-dory for flying. :eyes:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #223
231. The weather was not fine so will you stop saying that!
*My Bob Boudelang moment*

It WASN'T 'fine'--- 'fine' is sunny, warm, etc. . The weather in Northern MN that morning was 'crappy', at best!
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #231
240. Above freezing, no wind, 3-4 miles of visibility, no other planes reported
any problems, a highly safe machine with two engines, two pilots and redundant systems?

What more do you want?

Should we shut down all plane travel in Minnesota for 7 months of the year?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #240
246. Sweet Jesus on a pogo stick!
It was 'above freezing' (barely) on the ground! 500 feet up it could have been 28 F! unless you took the exact temperature at the EXACT moment the plane did the first unusual thing, you have NO way of EVER 'knowing' what the temperature was!

meteorology is not your strong suit, I'm guessing, along with areodynamics and physics---am i right? :eyes:
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #246
249. Padraig...there ARE indications of..
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 04:54 PM by Jakey
an inversion in the area, and icing has been pretty much ruled out as causative. However, the weather still sucked.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #246
252. Except there was an inversion layer and it was above freezing to about
5,000 feet.

But thanks for playing!
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #240
247. All irrelevant......
and nobody is suggesting any of the aforementioned as the primary cause, which will most probably be attributed to pilot error.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #247
255. Thanks for bringing sanity and knowledge into this debate, Jakey.
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 05:07 PM by stickdog
I realize there are two sides to this story. Unlike your compatriots, you do a fine job of presenting the other side.
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #255
259. "WE" are trying dog.... n/t
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #190
205. As a Commercial Pilot, There is Nothing to Prevent a Pilot
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 03:50 PM by mhr
to fly to a destination that may have weather below minimums if he believes, based on weather data, that an approach can be flown safely at his time of arrival.

In this case, the only requirement of the FAA is that the pilot have a declared secondary that does have acceptable weather and that the aircraft has enough fuel to fly to the secondary destination.

For the layman, think about it this way. Instead of flying directly to the secondary alternate first, where a landing is assured, the pilot makes a dogleg to the preferred airport to see if weather has improved. If not, then the pilot flys to the secondary and lands.

Generally the FAA does not want to limit a pilot and his desire to make a safe landing if at all possible.

For what it is worth, instrument pilots fly approaches at weather minimums everyday all over the world. Pilots make go/no-go judgements all the time.

The key is that after reviewing all available data, does the pilot believe he can navigate to and land safely at the intended destination.

As to weather, sometimes it can be very unpredictable. Landing and takeoff minimums can be compromised by changing weather in seconds.

Further, on ice, I have personally seen several inches of ice build in less than 30 seconds.

I remember one flight over Tyler, TX in a large twin turboprop. While level at 18,000 ft we were advised by ATC of icing reports ahead on our route of flight. In less than one minute we had severe icing and had to make an emergency descent to a lower and warmer altitude because the deicing boots could not break the ice quickly enough.

As I have said before, stuff happens in the real world of aviation.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #205
289. Okay!
So you're saying there is a case for an accident.

Why don't you want to admit there is a case for murder?

And which of these is valid as a neutral hypothesis in the scientific sense? Neither!

Now please explain something I admit I've only heard for the first time on this thread... the FBI on the scene directly?

Not to mention Wellstone being a personal target of the Rovesters?

Not to mention the Colombia incident?

Any other country in the world, I guarantee you anyone and everyone could agree that murder is a possible hypothesis, with a likelihood quite similar to accident. It takes wishful thinking to simply mock the possibility.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #190
221. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #221
227. No, I understand perfectly well.
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 04:10 PM by Padraig18
I understand, as you apparently *don't*, that flying conditions were at or near 'marginal' all through Northern MN that morning. Look at a the NWS reports, if you don't believe it.

'Marginal' doesn't mean you *can't* fly--- it *does* mean that stuff can go VERY wrong VERY quickly, even in an Air King.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #227
243. So planes were falling out of the sky across the state that day?
Right?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #243
250. What do you not comprehend?
Point A may be OK, while 5 miles away Point B may NOT be OK, weatherwise; 2 minutes later, the reverse could be true. What is this cockamamie 'planes were dropping out of teh sky all over MN" sophistry supposed to prove?
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #250
253. That the weather certainly wasn't a primary cause of the accident. (NT)
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #243
251. Just one who's crew competency is in serious contention... n/t
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Abaques Donating Member (253 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
264. This whole thread makes me sad....
Maybe it was the same people who placed explosives in the WTC buildings who sabotaged the Wellstone's flight. I hear those people also run Area 51 and shot JFK, Gandi, RFK, MLK, Malcolm X, Hitler, and some noble guy in a train in Croatia in 1914......



All you tin foil hat people ever do is cherry pick information that suits your idea of what happened and then deny that any other information is credible. You actually use the exact same argumentative tactics that the repugs use. When someone proves what you say wrong you just attack the source. Or ignore it. Or talk about some other point.


I wouldn't care but this just muddles up what we should be talking about.... like who of the dem cannidates has the best health care plan and why.... or who can challenge Bush the best on foreign policy....

This just wastes our time and makes us look bad.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #264
283. Read and analyze everything the NTSB has released.
The read every newspaper article ever written about the event.

Then, when you know as much as I do about this plane crash, please get back to me with your "cherry picking" complaints.

You have presented nothing but a dressed up logical fallacy (appeal to generality) supported by nothing other than your bare assertions (hand waving).
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #283
285. Nor have you. n/t
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #285
309. Hi Padraig18, Me Thinks Stickdog Has Little Practical Understanding

About aviation and aviation weather.

As you noted, weather is dynamic and not static.

When an airport is operating at minimums:

Pilot A attempts an approach and must go missed,
Pilot B following makes the same approach and lands,
Pilot C attempts the approach goes missed as well.

What changed? The weather! In the short span of 10 minutes each of these three pilots saw different conditions. Only one of the three landed on their first approach.

This happens routinely. It's happened to me.

Usually you wait a little bit in a holding pattern and then try again.

WEATHER IS NOT STATIC - Why do you think we pilots love this stuff so much! It's fun and a challenge. There is nothing quite like shooting a difficult approach with the tires finally touching terra firma.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #309
312. Oh no! *gasp*
The BFEE was manipulating the weather--- they probably used their gigantic weather-control machine (conveniently located right next to the other VOR generator and microwave pilot-incapacitating machine) to make Wellstone's plane's wing ice up. Then the used the giant wing-ice melting machine to melt it all off after impact! The FIENDS! /sarcasm off

:P
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #312
315. Yeah, a VOR is truly a sophisticated, futuristic thing.
Radio beacons are the stuff of Buck Rodgers.

And those folks at Scientific American sure like their tinfoil:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000CBC91-B6F...
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #309
313. The weather was stable that day.
No wind.

No pressure systems moving in or out.

No changes in temperature or pressure near the time of the crash greater than instrument accuracy.

Methinks you should do a bit of research before you affect a tone of haughty superiority.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #313
317. And MEthinks...
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 06:56 PM by Padraig18
... you would be well-served to understand the meanings of the words you're tossing about with such great authority, especially when several pilots have taken the time to educate you as to their PRECISE meanings in context, unlike myself, who has just explained the weather in layman's terms---'crappy'.

PS--- Silly ME, how could I *not* have thought of it before? They're in on 'it' too, arent they? :eyes:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #317
318. Hand waver!
All you do, when confronted with inconvenient facts which don't fit with your theory, is go back to the same previously-dicredited evidence and repeat the same useless factoids, wave your hands and shout "But, but, but, but..." ...
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #317
319. Thanks, helium.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #319
321. A site with some manner of evidence?
You should visit it, if it is...
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #313
328. Eveleth's "stable" weather....
Here's the weather observations from Eveleth AWOS, 2 preceeding the crash and one post-crash...

Time 1454Z
wind calm; visibility 2 miles; present weather light snow;
sky condition scattered 400, overcast 700 feet; temperature 1oC; dew point 0oC; altimeter setting 30.07 inches Hg.

Time 1514Z
wind calm; visibility 3 miles; present weather light snow;
sky condition scattered 400, overcast 700 feet; temperature 1oC; dew point 0oC; altimeter setting 30.06 inches Hg.

Time 1522Z Wellstone crash

Time 1534Z
wind calm; visibility 4 miles; present weather mist;
sky condition overcast 400; temperature 1oC; dew point minus 1oC;
altimeter setting 30.05 inches Hg.

Note that there was already a "scattered" cloud condition developed at 400 feet, which just happens to be the Minimum Descent Altitude specified in the approach procedure.

Flight in those conditions would be in and out of clouds. Note that at 1534Z the sky had gone to solid overcast at 400 feet. In those conditions it might not have been possible to EVER attain visual contact with the ground, no less the runway environment. Also keep in mind that EVM weather is reported in 100 foot increments, and the ceiling might actually have been up to 50 feet higher or lower than the reported ceiling. So, was it closer to scattered or overcast at the time of the crash and what is the liklihood of higher or lower than 400 feet? While the crash time was 4 minutes closer to the 1514z observation, how quickly could the weather change in that "stable" condition?

The ASOS at Hibbing, which is 16 miles west of Eveleth and, it appears, the closest weather reporting station to Eveleth, provides an excellent demonstration of the potential for rapidity of change and below approach minimum ceilings in this weather system. This system reports weather observations every 5 minutes as opposed to the 20 minute observations at Eveleth.

Here's the 2 preceeding the crash and one post-crash...

Time 1515Z
wind 130 degrees at 3 knots; visibility 3 miles; present weather mist;
sky condition overcast 500 feet; temperature minus 1oC; dew point minus 2oC;
altimeter setting 30.06 inches Hg. pressure altitude 1,230 feet, relative humidity 96%,
density altitude minus 400 feet, magnetic wind 130 degrees at 3 knots, remarks ceiling
varying between 300 and 600 feet.

Time 1520Z
wind 120 degrees at 3 knots; visibility 4 miles; present weather mist;
sky condition overcast 500 feet; temperature minus 1oC; dew point minus 1oC;
altimeter setting 30.06 inches Hg. pressure altitude 1,230 feet, relative humidity 100%, density altitude minus 400 feet, magnetic wind 130 degrees at 3 knots.

Time 1522Z Wellstone crash

Time 1525Z
wind calm; visibility 4 miles; present weather mist;
sky condition overcast 300 feet; temperature minus 1oC; dew point minus 1oC; altimeter setting 30.06 inches Hg. pressure altitude 1,230 feet, relative humidity 96%, density altitude minus 300 feet, magnetic wind 000 degrees at 0 knots.

In 5 minutes, the ceiling went from 500 overcast to a below approach minimum 300 overcast and maintained this thru the remaining 3 observations! And THIS is the same weather system that was impacting Eveleth. Based on the trend at Hibbings, my guess is the Eveleth ceiling was on the low side of 400 feet and that the ceiling changed from scattered to overcast close to the 1522Z crash time.


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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #328
330. Wow, what a violent "weather system"!
Almost like a hurricane came through, huh?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #330
331. Fallacy: Appeal to ridicule
Also Known as: Appeal to Mockery, The Horse Laugh.

Description of Appeal to Ridicule: The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument."

Of course, it's what you do best when persented with facts that don't fit your :tinfoilhat: theory...
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #330
332. Nope...just very low variable ceilings...
which were even below approach minimums at several locations in the area.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #332
336. Look. Slightly changing low cloud cover COULD have been a factor.
But it doesn't explain why the plane veered off course or why the plane was going well over 40 mph too slow.

Or why, if they went into a stall, the pilots never tried to recover.

Or why the plane turned left when the flight plan specified fly arounds should veer to the right.

In fact, since conditions were always above minimum and were pretty damn stable all morning, they really don't explain much of anything.
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Jakey Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #336
339. Oh fer chrissakes.....
you would test the patience of Job. Go argue with the NTSB when the report comes out.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #339
340. 72% to 28% (nt)
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #340
418. Yes, 72% are indeed stupid
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #418
427. Of course, you are smart enough to rule out explanations without evidence.
Congratulations on being part of the brilliant DU minority.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #264
286. Thanks for your concern
We wouldn't want to "look bad". Oh, and we "cherry pick" information...where have I heard that phrase before? We're in danger of being "marginalized".

This is an old controversy. I think it was probably an accident. However, some people have questions. They are allowed to do so.

Also, calling us "you tin foil hat people" apparently means that we should accept, unquestioningly, the official take on every event.

What do you think about LIHOP?
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