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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:28 PM
Original message
hatred of * ???
Last night, I was struck by the plethora of threads that were extoling intense hatred of *. It was almost as though folks were reveling and celebrating their pure unadulterated vitriol.

Of course, I loathe his policies, his deceit, his misrepresentations, his facade of a "Culture of Life" despite his incessant war mongering and profiteering, his mean spiritedness that masquerades as humor, his short sightedness, his pseudo self righteousness, how he's summarily trashed all that was once great about this country, and how I don't want to see my kid and his buddies, or anyone's kid for that matter drafted for an illegal war based on bogus intelligence . . .etc.

But I try my damnedest not to hate him. Sometimes it is indeed admittedly really difficult to maintain neutrality towards him as a person.

From a historical perspective I know that this cabal will undoubtedly experience it's demise from the same force that has taken down every Imperialistic power throughout recorded history. That would be. . . by their own hubris. Of course I mourn over how many have suffered, died, and those will have to suffer and or die as a result the idiocies of this misadministration.

From a spiritual perspective, I pity him the karma he'll inevitably have to endure over the broader span of time for his heinous crimes. Yet I feel that the only way most of us learn appropriate and ethical use of power is through suffering the invariable consequences of it's abuse, be it on the side of the persecutor or the victim.

From a metaphysical perspective, and this of course cannot be proven, I feel that people like * and these "neocons" thrive on hatred and fear. They simple cannot handle or bare it's antithesis.

Just please consider the possibility that all that vitriolic hatred thrown around will only keep them in power longer.

There is a whistleblowers conference meeting while I'm typing this including Sibel Edmonds and some other people which might just have some real gravitas. I'll link to it later.

If you think you can, consider trying just for the next several weeks or months to stop empowering these despots any further with hatred. Consider the possibility that they may just thrive on it.

Nam Yo Renkyo (May all beings be happy)

Putting on my asbestos suit now.

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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. So I finally know what that mantra means!
Good post. Good points.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. If you say it repeatedly
(even with your mind) when you're up against some BS, it very often neutralizes it.

It's helped me through all sorts of sticky situations.

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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. It's "nam-myoho-renge-kyo"
And it literally means " to devote oneself to Myh-renge-ky, becoming one with the ultimate truth or cosmic life force"

"Nichiren Daishonin prefaced this title with the word namu (generally pronounced nam when connected to Myh-renge-ky). Namu comes from Sanskrit and is transliterated into two Chinese characters; it means to devote one's life. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo thus means to devote oneself to Myh-renge-ky, becoming one with the ultimate truth or cosmic life force."

My wife is a member of the Soka Gakkai sect and like all its members, it obsessed with this stuff...
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. thanks for the clarification
guesss my interpretation was more of a colloquialism.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. No prob. Many people say chanting that does wonders.
I'm an atheist and wouldn't recommend any sects, but chanting can be a good form of meditation...
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
57. That's right..I chanted it through a c-section...the dear anesthesiologist
chanted right along with me. Took my mind off having my organs rearranged while conscious, LOL
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digno dave Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
54. Excess hatred of anyone/thing will lead one to false assumptions and
poor judgements. Some of the stuff on this board is sad and pitiful. That's kind of why i don't come here so much any more. I think We're worse than the Rs were to Clinton. Well, on second thought, maybe not.
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oldtime dfl_er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. sometimes, though,anger and hate can be a useful tool
for continuing to fight in the face of the kind of evil these people perpetuate.

www.cafepress.com/showtheworld
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. negative motivaters
Edited on Fri Apr-29-05 01:41 PM by stellanoir
for redemptive action are positive. However, these means clearly are not working. . . if you haven't noticed. I worry that we are merely perpetuating the problem.

I'm only suggesting an approach of neutrality and greater wisdom. I really felt last evening and other times before, that we're only tripping ourselves up with this hatred.

it's simply not serving us well and may actually be undermining us.

here's the link for the conference. . .

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0504/S00408.htm
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate,
hate leads to suffering. I too try not to hate Bush. He does not make it easy though. I find it hard to look at him without feeling sick.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. You are a better person than me.
"The superior man" (or woman) would not hate George Bush. All the great philosophers East and West tell us this. But it's difficult for me. He's has caused such untold suffering, and will cause yet more. And when this regime faces its demise, I fear they will take the rest of us down with it.

Many years a go some Tibetan monks visited San Francisco and were making one of those beautiful mandalas out of sand at one of the city's museums. One day a crazy woman jumped onto it and destroyed all their work, right before they were almost done. San Franciscans who witnessed it were horrified and apologized in a panic to the monks, and much hatred was expressed for the woman, much outrage. But the monks calmly accepted what had happened, and forgave the woman. This is a level of spirituality that I don't think I can achieve, in this lifetime.
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MarianJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. Your Asbestos, stellanoir, will not be tested by me!
I don't hate the man and neither does my wife (DUer ChicaAzul).

In fact, if anything we pity the pathetic human being that he is. We hate the policies and have nothing good to say about he and the handlers of his junta. He is a little boy who thinks that because hes playing Superman, he IS Superman. He is constantly surrounded by people who will do nothing but kiss his ass. Little does he know how his puppet masters have a deep and abiding contempt for him behind his back, because they know that there is no cowboy in the hat.

When he leaves office, he will get some high paying "job" from some of daddy's buddies and spend the rest of his pathetic life drinking his liver into oblivion and having NOBODY ask his opinion of anything.

This is not worthy of hate. He is worthy of pity and disdain. If that.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I more often think of him as a really lame assed
cross between misinformed and incompetent Mighty Mouse, and Captain Wrong Way Peachfuzz from Rocky and Bullwinkle.

LOL Morphing villains into really inept cartoons of wanna-be super heroes really helps.
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jojo54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. I don't hate him, just think he's not of sound mind.
I brought my girls up not to use the word hate. It's really a nasty thing to say.

But let's face it, we love to disrespect, debunk, prosecute and oppose anyone who doesn't see things our way. G.W. *'s problem is, he doesn't know when to say "uncle".
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AValdoux Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. Stick to issues not feelings
I think we only alienate his followers when we attack him on a personal level. When I talk politics with a republican I always use issues rather than people; the economy, fuel prices, the war, etc. They are harder for them to defend. Their discussion requires facts not feelings.


AValdoux
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hippiegranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
39. I do the same thing
that you do when talking to people who are supporters of his. I completely limit myself to issues and carefully hide my utter contempt for the man.

But when I talk to friends of like mind... oh man, the gloves come off! I TRY not to hate this person, I really do, but then I will see a picture of that arogant smirk and my blood pressure rises. Never in my life has any person, dead or alive, caused such a physical recoil.
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. Good points, I'll try.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. I'm sorry, while all of the points you make are good ones
It is hard for me to remain serene in the face of the destruction that this mass murderer has unleashed upon the world. His war of empire has killed tens of thousands of innocents abroad, and even when he is gone, future generations in Iraq will suffer and die because of this man's actions.

Meanwhile on the domestic front his policies and plans have also condemned thousands of poor and working class people to death, disease, and want.

Yes, I realize that if I dwell on this too much, I will do myself physical harm, thus I make it a routine to let it all go on a daily basis, and enjoy the more pleasant things in life. But I'm sorry, my feelings toward this man can be described in no other way than as outright, pure hatred. Virtually everything he implements brings death and destruction. Like the old bumpersticker says, "If you aren't outraged, you aren't paying attention". Well, I've been paying attention, and I'm waaaaaay beyond outraged.

Sorry if that bothers you, but there it is.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. I think the effect of admonishments of not to hate...
... is to further victimize people who've been harmed. They'd have us feeling ashamed and apologetic for experiencing a natural human emotion.

Sounds like a classic technique for controlling the minds of abuse victims, frankly, no matter how charmingly it's phrased.

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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
49. It's what one does with that emotion that is the issue here
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. oh I'm totally outraged
Spent 20 months prior to the election last fall obsessing about electronic voting machines and then saw my worst fears manifest between 11 pm and 1 am on Nov. 2nd-3rd. Lost some friends for a while because it's all I ever talked about.

Spent 3 months in a virtual paralysis after the election. Then on January 6th finally seeing a handful of Democrats stand up and speak of all the irregularities in voting was such a great relief. But alternately came the Repubs dismissively reducing their claims as nothing more conspiracy theories.

I almost took a step over the edge on that day. But instead I took several steps backwards and got the overview of the bigger picture and gained some perspective.

"Sorry if that bothers you, but there it is."

It doesn't bother me. I agree wholeheartedly with all your sources of outrage. But more to the point, is this hatred serving you and pragmatically, is all this anger doing anything except misfiring and empowering the opposition and might there be a more useful way of channelling all that energy?

I'm not sure but I do know that we're losing everything we ever stood for. A change in approach is at least worthy of a discussion.
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renaissanceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. I can't help BUT hate him.
Would you say Hitler is not worth hating?


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.21518002
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Hitler was certainly a hateful human being
Edited on Fri Apr-29-05 04:25 PM by stellanoir
Yet he loved animals and most strangely had been an artist after hanging wallpaper for a while.

Don't get me wrong. I've been constantly haunted since childhood of memories of his god forsaken camps. He was unequivocably loathesome. But most of the world. as a result of his atrocities, and over the span of time, was forced to contemplate the possibility of mutually assured destruction thanks to the development of nuclear weaponery and the UN was born in reaction to his BS. Was it worth 6 million lives. I honestly don't think so. But it's truly impossible to measure these things.

Will some positive results come of *'s atrocities? Time will only tell. Now I'm channeling Rumsfeld answering my own bloody questions so I've probably had it.

I just naively feel that hatred is simply not the antidote for our current conundrum.

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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. Hate is just an emotion, a natural response to something harmful and wrong
Don't be afraid of emotions. They are neither good nor bad. It's what we do with them that matters.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
12. And what about the Flip side
Why do people LOVE * ???

The child-like, unquestioning love of Bush by some of his supporters is disturbing.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. One theory. . .
Edited on Fri Apr-29-05 02:48 PM by stellanoir
it's Stockholm Syndrome wherein one is lulled into a false sense of complacency, security, and safety by their abductors and/or abusers.
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Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. I hate that little ****sucka with every fiber of my being
Unlike the chimpster, I have never been arrested and I completed my 4 years in the service without going AWOL EVER. I started back to school when the EPA was founded, and have spent the last 30 years working in the field of water quality programs and environmental protection, only to see this little fukking retard steal the presidency twice and turn our environment on it's head. In essence, negating much of the work I have been involved in...including ANWR eco-assessments.

I have every right, and consider it my duty, to hate this little pissant piece of shit. If he went through the vetting process to get a career in corporate America like many of us have, he would have been tossed out for the arrest record, and certainly for the dishonorable discharge he should have got for deserting his military unit during a period of war....even if he was in texas or bama.

He's barely suited to be a night manager of a McDonald's, never mid commander-in-chief. Bush sux, but a lot of that can be attributed to poor parenting, especially that uterus from hell mama of his.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. so why on earth
would you inadvertantly empower him further with the hatred he so obviously thrives upon.
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Batgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. but you said this is an unproven theory
"From a metaphysical perspective, and this of course cannot be proven, I feel that people like * and these "neocons" thrive on hatred and fear."

I believe that the liberal personality type tends to be non-confrontational, and uncomfortable with the so-called "negative" emotions of anger, and the hatred, yes hatred, that arises from extreme fear and anger.

We are human, and these are legitimately within the spectrum of human emotions. These are feelings that can serve us if we listen to them.

Genuine serenity under extreme circumstances, such as being the victims of abuses (physical and emotional), and outrage at viewing other victims of abuses perpetrated by Bush and his cronies, is rare. People that I've known who profess to have "handled" their anger (which is the actual source of hatred) into nonexistence, have usually succeeded in only burying the bad, uncomfortable feelings.

But these suffocated feelings will find a way to come out, in the form of migraines, stomach pains, and various sorts of physical devilments and ailments.

In my opinion, venting on a message board isn't really going to tip the scales of Bush's karmic fate one way or the other. In fact, his dwindling approval ratings might be seen as the gradual awakening to long-buried feelings spreading throughout the population. It takes a lot to overcome the natural desire to give the president a pass, to trust in his benevolence, regardless of evidence to the contrary. But more and more people are waking up. They seem to be realizing this national depression and anxiety, isn't just because of 9/11. But that a lot of it has come from false terror alerts, government officials that have such contempt for us they don't even bother to lie convincingly, and our through-the-glass-darkly media.

Of course, I agree with your point that actual reveling in hatred isn't the best use of energy. But damnit, sometimes a person just has to revel.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
14. the hatred does seem to spill over
not only onto anybody who voted for Bush, but onto anybody who suggests that fighting hatred with hatred is neither wise nor effective. As you expect to get flamed, you anticipate that the hatred of Bush is going to be diverted into hatred of you or of what you just said.

I called Joseph Perkins, a rightwing columnist, an "apostle for a gospel of hate" so I think what you said is very profound. I do strongly hate Bush and the BFEE cabal, but I do not dwell on it or constantly express it and revel in it. I also try to restrict it to the people responsible and the primary shills and enablers.
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woodsprite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. I flip-flop between
feeling really sorry for him since he's so messed up and thinking he's a little pissy-a$$ed pr1ck who's just out for a joy-ride.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sorry, but I do hate everything about him
He has no redeeming qualities.

On a personal level, I would not like that man.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
18. I hate hating. But I can't help it.
Look, I realize loathing the little twerp is a waste of my emotional energy. I don't buy that the vitriol is keeping him in power, but I readily admit it's not doing much to get him out.

Every day I take deep breaths and count my blessings and do other things to keep me rational.

But once in a while, here on DU, I let fly. Can't do it anywhere else.

Anyway... being quiet is too much like consent... I would like for there to be such thing as karma, and maybe there is, but I all know I have is the here and now, and that guy is fucking it up.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
20. Fact: We have every right to hate them.
Judge us by what we do with that emotion, don't chastise us for experiencing it in the first place.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. see post # 8
Edited on Fri Apr-29-05 02:58 PM by stellanoir
It wasn't my intention to chastise. I was just struck but how much hatred was circulating and opening a discussion about how to redirect it appropriately with the most positive effect.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Well, I disagree with your premise there, as well.
It's not that tapping anger/outrage/hate hasn't worked out. The fact is, up to now, no one in a leadership position has tried it.

Our leaders have been doing Government, while the other side has been doing War.

Now, finally, they're getting a little ticked off. The strong emotions that we as rank-and-file have been trying to articulate are beginning to "trickle up."

And, not coincidentally, we're starting to see signs that they're becoming effective again, that they're putting anger/outrage/hate to work in a positive way.

It can be done.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. I thoroughly agree with you that "it can be done"
but what I felt in here last night was a whole lot of energy being expelled, going nowhere, and potentially empowering the very source of all of our angst. Just thought we could possibly sort it out.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I understand what you're saying but, as I noted, we disagree.
Edited on Fri Apr-29-05 04:00 PM by Zenlitened
I think it's important to remember that this is an online discussion forum -- of course people are going to blow off steam here. That's partly what a discussion forum is for.

It's not fair to say that such energy is "going nowhere." What DUers post is part of a larger process. Sometimes people need to say "that sucks" before they can move on to dissecting policy or formulating proposals. Encouraging DUers to bottle it up is, in my view, harmful.

As for empowering our opponents... they're quite empowered already, as I hope you'll acknowledge. I'd argue they got there precisely BECAUSE we didn't stand up and shout "Stop!" Precisely because too many among us counseled careful words and measured tones.

Now you're advising us to take exactly that approach... nope. Been there, done that. I'm angry. I'm angry for a very good reason. I'm going to say so, and I'm going to act upon it in pursuit of my ideals.


(edit spelling)
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. then act away
Edited on Fri Apr-29-05 04:45 PM by stellanoir
just don't vent and vent only is all I'm saying. I must have seen about five to seven threads last night that went "hate" over 50 successive times. I just don't believe that helps aside from releasing some steam, all that much.

I know our opposition has been totally lame. That's why I merely wanted to open a discusion as to how we could potentially redirect all that energy into positive action.

Act don't just kvetch 'cause it may just be counterproductive.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Kvetching and acting, here.
Edited on Fri Apr-29-05 04:56 PM by Zenlitened
Walking and chewing gum, too. :)
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. woh
am truly impressed :hi:
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. what are we trying to stop?
Edited on Fri Apr-29-05 05:00 PM by hfojvt
I went to a march in feb of 2002, trying to stop a war. Over 1000 people were there, but there were too many signs denigrating Bush. This was not supposed to be about Bush or even Republicans. This was about war. Yet because our hatred spilled over onto the phonident and other Republicans pushing for war our protest was not inclusive enough. We drove away the RAW group (Republicans Against War) which might have added to our numbers. We also thereby made ourselves less relevant since we were a group of people the Republicans could logically see were not going to vote for them anyway.

Again, Bush came to Kansas City, and I went to protest it. I wanted to be able to counter the lies he was going to tell. Most of my fellow protesters just wanted to let Bush know that we hate him, or to let KC know that we hate him. My message would be, "he's a liar. If you hate getting lied to, you should hate him." It is not about him, or hatred, it is about the lies. Although we hate being lied to, isn't the truth a better answer to a lie than hatred is?
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Can I hate them AND tell the truth about them?
:shrug:
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. if you lead with your hatred
you will give people who like him, or who are ignorant and indifferent and easy way to dismiss you as someone more motivated by hate than truth. How can they trust a partisan hater?
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. You assume a lot. If you fear your own emotions, say so.
But don't assume the same in everyone else.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. agreed totally
if we are confidant that the "truth will set us free" then we are coming from a place of assured confidance as opposed to an often nefarious defensive and vitriolic hatred.

That's precisely what I was trying to bring forth in this thread so thanks.
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Gelliebeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. I agree Zen
what we are experiencing we own.
If we use this anger and hatred to do something good then power to it.
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
21. "...I feel that people like * and these "neocons" thrive on hatred and fea
Thank you for your great contribution.

:thumbsup:

I share your fear that Democratic (blogger or politician) vitriolic hatred of everything bush related will strengthen his base. It may cause moderate gop voters to dismiss the Democratic message as hate speech. It may also turn off Democrats who want to research and hear about ISSUES not personal opinions.

However accurate or well-deserved these attacks on bush are... public discourse (by politicians and bloggers alike) on issues should be elevated to facts, other facts, and more facts. How else can the average American make a judgement about issues? Most people don't want to hate anyone but can discern between bad and good policies.

My statement is not an endorsement of the dlc or "conservatism" (except fiscal) in the Democratic party. Quite the opposite. Democrats supporting the extreme gop agenda which is a declaration of war on all working, retired, poor, veterans, children, unemployed, uninsured and disabled Americans... will hurt the party as much if not more than hate speech on our part.

Maybe every Dem Representative should begin every response to gop attacks with the following: "That's a lie... here's the facts:". Stated enough times, people may come to associate the gop with lies.

Average working Americans have little luxury time to listen or read through hate messages and partisan attacks. IMO, they'd listen to facts and would want to know if they were lied to.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
23. To me, Boosh is an icon of the neo-cons . . .
much like Hummers are an icon for SUVs. When I express hatred toward Boosh, it's toward the whole movement.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. Action based on hatred never ends well...
History tells us that people who dwell and stew in their hate, and then act on it create more suffering than one can imagine.

Adolf Hitler hated Jews, six million were murdered. Osama bin Laden hates the west, we got 9-11, the embassy bombings, the USS Cole, etc. Pinochet hated communists, thousands upon thousands of people died. And so on. There is never any rational action taken when the basest emotion for the action is hatred.

I don't hate the President, I pity the man. He's nothing but a braindead puppet to me, who I believe is exceedingly stupid, and completely uncurious about the world. When I get so angry at what he does or says that I feel like I hate him, I just remember how Pope John Paul II prayed and forgave the man who tried to kill him instead of hating the man forever.

That, and I believe hatred requires too much emotional energy than this man is worth.
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Tracer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
26. I loathe him ...
... and I loathe the NeoCon agenda.

My Outrage-O-Meter has redlined.
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Dees Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
29. As I posted earlier..I actually learned last night
that I hate the son of a bitch.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. well all I'm asking is for you
to ask yourself just what it is exactly that all this hatred is doing for him and what it's taking from you?
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Gelliebeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. It drives me to get involved
every time I see him I recommit myself to taking these people down. If I just disagreed with him and had no emotion I might not care enough to get involved and I think way to many people are apathetic.

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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. that's cool and that's
precisely what I was referring to in Post #8. But when people are just venting their spleens I wonder if it possibly just could have the opposite of the intended effect.

That's all.
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Dees Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. For a long time I could not bring myself
to admit that my feelings were stronger that just disgust for the Republican policies and actions. The man who is on point for the tragedy, pain and death caused by Republican callous attitudes has to be the apex of anger and contempt. Taking the emotional stance that I have fits the Monster* and his crimes. I will speak louder and longer now that I have outed myself.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
35. hatred feeds the beast
no flames from me...they do thrive on negative energy.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
37. There is, indeed, an unacceptable level of hatred here...
But it's not the hatred of Bush, it's the hatred of chimpanzees.
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Jesus Saves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
40. Some people are addicted to hate
and addicted to outrage. People on both sides are afficted. At times I get caught up in it even. It's one of the defining characteristics of our age.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
50. I've struggled with this internally myself...
...being sort of a Buddhist/Pagan type person (but not really either in any dogmatic fashion). It (the fear, anger and hatred) seem to always win. I am *very* angry with the amount of damage this man and his cohorts have done to myself, my family, and this country.

VERY angry. However, I have to agree with you that hatred and negativity do not help. In fact, 'it' feeds on such resistance.

There is a Buddhist practice called Chod, which literally means 'to cut'. I would like to cut myself away from so much anger, hatred and negativity - and most of all I would like to cut this administration out of Washington and out of the White House. What is it that this demon (bu$h or the anger he generates) want and how can we possibly release ourselves from its (and his) grip while still fighting for what we know is right and fair and for our poor country in effective ways?

*sigh*
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Yikes-that sounds frighteningly like the kids who are "cutting" themselves
... in a last, desperate effort to break through the silence and express the hurt and rage they're feeling.

Doesn't sound healthy at all. Sounds like denial.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. oh yeah it's disturbing
I counsel them all the time. Epithelial problems usually result from an acute disparity between their inner and outer worlds. Or so goes the theory.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. well it isn't about that...and it's not a literal practice...
...it's a medidation.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
68. not denial but enlightenment.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
61. I hate every damn little bit of that entire family
They are all vermin in my eyes.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. and you're my favorite neighbor
just don't put land mines in my yard or shoot me for trespassing or anything. Okay?
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
65. Not gonna renounce my loathing, not gonna apologize for feeling it
... not gonna walk on egshells, not gonna try to be better to stop the fucking abuse.


An excerpt from The Politics of Victimization by Mel Gilles...

First, you must admit you are a victim. Then, you must declare the state of affairs unacceptable. Next, you must promise to protect yourself and everyone around you that is being victimized. You don?t do this by responding to their demands, or becoming more like them, or engaging in logical conversation, or trying to persuade them that you are right. You also don?t do this by going catatonic and resigned, by closing up your ears and eyes and covering your head and submitting to the blows, figuring its over faster and hurts less is you don?t resist and fight back. Instead, you walk away. You find other folks like yourself, 56 million of them, who are hurting, broken, and beating themselves up. You tell them what you?ve learned, and that you aren?t going to take it anymore. You stand tall, with 56 million people at your side and behind you, and you look right into the eyes of the abuser and you tell him to go to hell. Then you walk out the door, taking the kids and gays and minorities with you, and you start a new life. The new life is hard. But it?s better than the abuse.

We have a mandate to be as radical and liberal and steadfast as we need to be. The progressive beliefs and social justice we stand for, our core, must not be altered. We are 56 million strong. We are building from the bottom up. We are meeting, on the net, in church basements, at work, in small groups, and right now, we are crying, because we are trying to break free and we don?t know how.

Any battered woman in America, any oppressed person around the globe who has defied her oppressor will tell you this: There is nothing wrong with you. You are in good company. You are safe. You are not alone. You are strong. You must change only one thing: stop responding to the abuser. Don?t let him dictate the terms or frame the debate (he?ll win, not because he?s right, but because force works). Sure, we can build a better grassroots campaign, cultivate and raise up better leaders, reform the election system to make it failproof, stick to our message, learn from the strategy of the other side. But we absolutely must dispense with the notion that we are weak, godless, cowardly, disorganized, crazy, too liberal, naive, amoral, ?loose?, irrelevant, outmoded, stupid and soon to be extinct. We have the mandate of the world to back us, and the legacy of oppressed people throughout history.

Even if you do everything right, they?ll hit you anyway. Look at the poor souls who voted for this nonsense. They are working for six dollars an hour if they are working at all, their children are dying overseas and suffering from lack of health care and a depleted environment and a shoddy education. And they don?t even know they are being hit.

http://mathewgross.com/archives/003075.htm
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Hush, now. Be a nice, quiet, POLITE abuse victim.
Edited on Fri Apr-29-05 09:50 PM by Zenlitened
:grr:

Yeah, that's what it sounds like to me, too. We can't say this because the freepers may be watching. We can't say that because some red voters may become even further entrenched in their idiocy. We can't say anything because some would-be, maybe, if-you're-nice-enough-to-me possible 'moderate' voter may vote repuke just to spite us.

Nuts to all that. Stand up and speak your mind. It's the only way out of bondage.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. not hating doesn't mean being quiet, or not fighting.....
not at all. you're confusing two very different things. for some odd reason you keep wanting to talk about being in denial, this concept seems to really resonate with you that it's all your perceiving instead of what was at the heart of this post. a great deal of clarity and strength can be found in when you're able to quell your ego and personal hurt from attachments and focus on the task at hand. it's not for everybody, but it's not at all what you have imagined it to be-and it is the furthest thing from being a victim.
aside from that, it's way fucking healthy, both emotionaly and blood pressure wise.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. At the heart of this post was an instruction...
Edited on Sat Apr-30-05 12:17 PM by Zenlitened
... "not to hate." To "maintain neutrality." You've added the word "quell." All of this adds up to: Remove the emotion, then act.

I say: Acknowledge the emotion, and act.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #67
73. Yes, there are those who would have us walk on eggshells in polite silence
Edited on Sat Apr-30-05 03:12 AM by Sapphire Blue
... like good little victims. Dont make the abuser angry... we might make him feel more powerful and give him another reason to beat on us. They dont get it... he doesnt need a reason, it doesnt matter what we do, hes gonna hit us anyway... and *smirk* while hes doing it.

I will not be silent... not gonna renounce my loathing, not gonna apologize for feeling it, not gonna walk on eggshells, not gonna try to be better to try to stop the abuse... I will stomp on those damned eggs with all the hatred I can muster. I hate that sadistic, psychotic, smirking, loathsome, slimy, abusive bastard. I hate him for what hes done to us, to our families, our friends, our neighbors, our country, our world.

As Mel Gilles said, We have the mandate of the world to back us, and the legacy of oppressed people throughout history. We will overcome this abuse... our anger will propel and empower us.

And when those red voters get hit enough, they may get angry enough to start stomping on some eggs, too.


"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom."

- Anais Nin

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Geo55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
70. I agree with much of your post.
". don't get mad and don't cuss a body out mentally or in voice. This brings more poisons than may be created by even taking foods that aren't good.
Edgar Cayce




I can't help myself
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-29-05 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
71. bush has caused the deaths of 24 soldiers of my hubby's unit. I knew them
I knew most their families.

They're DEAD.

Over 1700 soldiers are DEAD.

Over 30,000 soldiers are wounded, blind, deaf, brain-dead, without arms and/or legs, scarred or burned. Because of bush.

Some 100,000+ Iraqis are DEAD. God only knows how many are maimed and scarred for life.

God only knows how many soldiers and Iraqis are still to die or be wounded and maimed for life because of bush. God only knows how many will die from the DU and malnutrition.

Because of bush.

A woman soldier from my hubby's unit lost both her legs because of bush. She crawls around the floor with her infant son crawling behind her. Because of bush.

I lost 18 months of time with my husband, because bush caused my hubby to put his life on the line every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every one of those 18 months in Iraq.

Tell me, what emotion should I feel towards the son of a bitch who has killed so many, destroyed so many people's lives?

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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
72. I never imagined my hatred of one person could be so strong...
Maybe I never experienced true hatred. I'll tell you one thing, I am experiencing it now. But, my hatred is not just reserved for Shrub. I also hate Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Condi, and the rest of the blood thirsty war monger chicken hawks. These people are using America and their positions in government to steal everything they can. There will not be anything left when they finish...

Hate? It is beyond hate...
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chalky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
74. I am sorry. But I still loathe the man.
I have the same visceral reaction to cockroaches. It is not an enlightened reaction, I know, and I promise to work on it.

After 2008.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
75. look the intent of this
thread was not to instruct folks to be blissfully numb mindless victims. Nor was it to say that we haven't experience more provocation for anger here since we were colonies under King George. I know I've never been angrier at an administration.

All that he's trashed in such a relatively short amount of time truly boggles my mind.

Yet there's a profound difference between using anger as a motivator for rectification and depleting one's vital energy through spewing useless hatred which I still suggest,might just have the exact opposite of one's desired goals.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. * is leashed, drugged & scared-- focus on the Organ Grinder
Right again stellnoir, and thanks fer raising this thread. The response is fascinating: got spiritual right off the bat NOMYAHORENGEKYO and drew the folks who feel venting is healthy, necessary and motivating.

May I suggest that Bush's slight-of-mind provides a neat sleight-of-hand? (I don't know where "*" originated, but having realized that Bush has the gravitas of a whiffleball, I'm gonna borrow it.) It is hard to hate a whiffleball.

Reagan was hateworthy. He was the Original Chimperor, completely out of touch and pulling the wool over America's eyes. The Reagan Myth is a false construction that began 25 years ago.

Bush is even less in charge than Reagan. He is so ridiculous he provides a perfect foil for the :scared: Organ Grinders pulling his (and our) chain. May I suggest that we shift our focus, redirect the motivation and energy toward the Men Behind The Curtain?


Thanks to LynnTheDem for reminding us what this gang has done:

"bush has caused the deaths of 24 soldiers of my hubby's unit. I knew them. I knew most their families." May they rest in peace.

I propose that Bush is not in charge, he is a whiffleball figurehead, so pathetic as to deflect attention from the truly sinsiter gang running the show.

"Tell me, what emotion should I feel towards the son of a bitch who has killed so many, destroyed so many people's lives?"

I pity him. I've seen the moments on camera when he looks more like a trapped animal than a human being; I've seen him grinning like an imbecile when Baba Wawa asked him about Iwaq, obviously on the next generation of Viaprozac.

And Stella you're right--
"Yet there's a profound difference between using anger as a motivator for rectification and depleting one's vital energy through spewing useless hatred which....might just have the exact opposite of one's desired goals."

The Bully Boy mentality is obsolete. Continuing in that direction brings mutually assured destruction. (Even my neighbor who thinks "Bush's mission in Iraq is noble" agreed with that point).

So we quit being bullied and we quit bullying. We focus.

We pity the fool.

Nom myaho renge kyo

:evilgrin:
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MontageOfFreedom Donating Member (633 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. He is however a fundamentalist...
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MontageOfFreedom Donating Member (633 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
76. Oh make no mistake...
I don't hate them, I just want to see the fascism crumble and all their idiocy fall into the depths of the sea. They royally know how to piss the entire world off, but in the end I pity their lack of an actual conscience and sound mind. Or any rational mind.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
79. Sorry stellanoir! I Love You. But, I HATE Him!
Edited on Sat Apr-30-05 12:33 PM by DistressedAmerican
I hate every one of his policies all of which have already been touched on. I will say this, he is amass murderer and a war criminal. I hate every part of that aspect of his being.

But, beyond that I really dislike him as a person. He is swaggering, ignorant, loutish, arrogant and sanctimonious.

Everytime I hear people say "he is the kind of guy I'd like to have a beer with." or some such crap it makes me want to puke. Being trapped in a social situation with someone like that (regardless of his status of POTUS) is my idea of hell.

I have a viceral reaction to him that I have no control over. I do on occosion try to control what I express. Which, frankly reflects my viceral reaction to him on a fairly regular basis.

If that is any worse for my Karma than all of the mosquitos I kill, then let me come back as a repug...

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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. yeah but I love your baby even more
:hi:

and I just feel deeply compelled to quell the hatred. And as I said before. . .anger and redemptive action yes. . .hatred no.

We could perhaps just be lowering ourselves to his level by indulging in such dynamics. It's just a consideration I'm putting forth.

I just feel we need a sea change here. His heinous follies and atrocities are blatantly obvious. But I swear, merely venting doesn't accomplish dukey and could possibly be counteractive to our purpose and to your extremely delightful baby's future.

I was on the road all day, but had intended to respond to Lynn the Dem's post because it was truly heart wrenching. I'll PM her about it soon as this thread is probably soon to fade away. Yet she is someone who has been completely intrepid in dispelllng the unbelievable fallacies of this Gulag and who has been utterly fastidious in posting unequivocable facts. Her most warranted anger and totally sincere righteousness has seemingly motivated her to do so.

Random unfocused hatred does absolutedly nothing and maybe just maybe empowers the other side. I hope this discussion has been helpful in some obtuse way. Would love it to continue.
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