About the latest immigration threads here

[Maestro]

Okay, the recent posts on immigration have, frankly, upset me. Many of the posters seem to be reading rethuglican talking points memes or listening to that MSM that doesn’t ever seem to get a story right. We can not make immigrants and specifically, illegal immigrants, the only scapegoats for the ills of this country. Before I begin, I do not condone in any way illegal immigration. Immigration in general needs reform. Building up walls around the US is not going to solve the problem. Some of the rather Pat Buchannanesque posts seem rather xenophobic and show a lack of caring and understanding of the situation. I want to bring some reality to the conversation because whether we like it or not, people will come here.

I have been working with immigrants for the past 11 years. These are some of the most hardworking individuals around. They do not suck social services such as is claimed by some nor do they depend on hand-outs to eek out a living. In fact they turn them down many times even when they are offered. These people work and are proud! The reasons for immigration are varied. Most of the blame for illegal immigration in my eyes lies with hypocritical businesses that complain about immigration yet pay illegal workers under the table dirt cheap wages. No wonder they come. I also believe that illegal and legal immigrants to this country provide much to the economy. They are building the infrastructure of this country. They are building houses. They are helping the restaurant industry, the service industry and filling the jobs that many will not fill.

These individuals also DO pay taxes. They pay taxes in the form of sales taxes. They sometimes own their own houses and pay property taxes or pay rent to apartment complexes which in turn pay their taxes. The idea they come and only take things from the US is quite simply wrong and grossly misstated.

We are witnesses to history. There are huge paradigm shifts taking place in regards to population and the face of the United States. My face, white Anglo-Saxon, is no longer the face of America. The face of America is more Hispanic than anything else. Many feel uncomfortable with this and I am sorry. I accept it. One poster in another thread complained that in parts of Miami, English is not spoken. This does not bother me in the least. Just because it is not spoken doesn’t mean English is dead. It will be, for the foreseeable future, the language of business and government. If there are pockets of communities where other languages are spoken, great. Diversity is wonderful. Wars have never been fought over language use. Wars are fought over resources, land, religion, etc… Being diverse will help understand each other, if we want.

I am a bilingual teacher/administrator in a large school district outside of Dallas. I work with children who have never even been given a chance to have a quality education. One reason their parents come here is for their children to have a chance to be educated. I certainly can not fault the parents for this. As part of the 5th grade curriculum, the students study immigration. Since in the 5th grade bilingual classroom immigration has affected the entire classroom, the teacher asked the children to write in their journals about their experiences. The children could use any style of writing that they wanted. Many of the children are recent immigrants, less than 3 years here, so some chose to write in Spanish. The best piece of writing in my opinion was the following, which I feel, shows best what happens to a family affected by immigration. The author, a little girl, created a character who was a father. It could have been hers. I didn’t ask. She wrote her narrative in the form of a letter. If you have made it this far, please read the letter. It humanizes the discussion that we have been having lately about immigration. These aren’t criminals that come here. These are people with feelings and needs. Again, something needs to be done about illegal immigration, but to make immigrants the scapegoats for all the immigration problems is misguided.

(Translated with some editing but I tried to keep the original style and errors to keep it genuine, but I did add more periods. This girl is still working on her grammar. However, as you read listen to the voice and feeling present in this piece of writing. I know her so perhaps that is why this piece moved me, but still I think it is powerful! The names have been changed.)


From: Rodrigo
To: María

María, I know that in Mexico it is hard to find work and feed my kids because of this I came to the United States to have a better life and to have a job. I would not want you to suffer without food nor from work. I know that you and my kids are suffering. I can’t buy anything with the money I earn and with the money you earn nor with the money I am sending you. For sure, I can not buy you or my kids anything.

I came to the United States to send you money and so that you could buy my kids and yourself (something) and to pay for the house things and buy food to support my children. When things get better in the United States I swear to you that I will bring you all here myself so that you don’t suffer and that you have food, more clothes, more money and many other things. When things improve you will soon be with me.

Children and wife, I arrived in the United States without money, without a place to live, without anything to eat and without clothes. It hurt me to see me suffering like this and I don’t want to see you all like me when I arrived in the United States. When things get better, I swear that you all will live better than in your home country.

I confront many things like risking death because in the United States like those that live in the streets, the streets are bad. They don’t like people that come to the United States from Mexico, from Monterrey or from various other countries like the time I found a small apartment. Days passed. (Then) those that lived in the streets killed my friend because he was from Monterrey. That is why I don’t want to bring you here now. Wait until things calm down. If not, you and the kids could put yourself in more danger.

In this country, life is rough. Everything is rough even the police are rough. One day my friends were at their home. The police arrived. They mistreated them very badly only for not paying attention to them. I would not want Immigration to come and beat us. Maybe when I am a citizen and the president receives me in his country, as if I were no longer an immigrant, and I fix your papers so that you can come and have a different life, I will send for you. I would very much like to have you all here with me and see you happy. Here in the United States the children can have a school where they can learn better and a life; a different one.

Well, I must go now. It makes me sad to see you suffer. We’ll see each other later. I wish I could be near my family. I don’t care if you are poor; be that as it may, I will always love you all because you are my life. (When we see each other) I will love you like I had never seen you before. I love you. Take care.

The above is reality and it is life. It is not a political discussion. So for all the idiot minutemen protecting the borders, please say hello to Rodrigo. He’s just doing what he has to do to help his family survive.

[Bouncy Ball]

1. BRAVO, MAESTRO!!!

I think everyone who has an interest in this subject should actually GET TO KNOW some illegal immigrants. OR how about some legal immigrants? Any of them. Talk to them, get to know them, ask them questions. Learn their stories.

As you know, I also worked closely with such kids. I am ESL certified and taught ESL eighth graders for many years in a low socio-economic middle school in your same area (suburban Dallas).

Some of their stories are just heartbreaking. At an older age, they try hard to not let anyone know they CAN speak Spanish. They change the pronunciation of their names, they "Anglo-fy" everything they can about them. They make fun of kids recently from Mexico and call them "mojo."

One boy I had was very recently here from Columbia. We were reading a poem by Octavio Paz and I asked if anyone would like to read it in the original Spanish (I had both versions). Kids giggled, no one volunteered, but the student from Columbia confidently raised his hand, not aware that doing that would cause ridicule from the other kids, who were IMMIGRANTS THEMSELVES! But they had been here longer and had gotten the message (from whom, we ask ourselves? Hmmm...) that it was distinctly uncool to admit you know Spanish, much less to read it out loud in class.

He read it, despite the snickering, and he did an excellent job. It was beautiful. He did look confused at the giggling. As much as I encouraged him, that was the LAST time I ever heard him speak Spanish.

And yet, all I hear from right wingers (and others) are that these immigrants REFUSE to learn to speak English. Hell's bells, my city's free English classes for adults are PACKED every Wednesday night. We have to turn people away. The city is trying to get the funds together to offer a second and possibly third night a week to have the classes (I volunteer to teach them).

It's the employers who happily use and abuse the illegal immigrants I have a problem with. It's the Americans, like my former friend, who whisper vile things about Mexicans behind their backs that I have a problem with. (I was once in a K-Mart and that "friend" and I saw a man buying a lot of fabric that was on clearance. He explained to the fabric employee-who was Hispanic-in Spanish that he was sending it to Mexico to his abuelita to make dresses for his daughters. My friend whispered "Good, glad to see they're buying up all the butt-ugly fabric. Wish he'd go with his fabric." That was the last time I ever saw her.)

[Maestro]

12. I knew I could count on you.

I'm glad and sad that you have ditched your friend, but I would have done the same. I had to ditch my own uncle because he is so racist he was degrading Hispanics right in front of my wife and kids. What makes it worse is that my wife and therefore my kids are part Hispanic! Racism just blinds you. But it taught me a lesson, racists truly just look at skin color not the person. My wife is olive skinned; not indigenous looking, but she is Hispanic. My uncle really likes her and accepted as a person, so I thought. He never realized she was Hispanic.
It's the same with immigrants. Get to know their stories and I think most will find they are not who many think they are.

[4morewars]

2. I couldn't agree with you more Maestro.

Thank for your thoughtful post.
I was saddened and disgusted by many of the posts I read. I was astounded by how vehemently they fought to hold on to their divisive and archaic beliefs. Some of those people should be ashamed of themselves.
They should be ashamed of their thinly veiled racism, their hatred and bigotries, and their self absorbed rhetoric. But, mostly they should be ashamed at how easily they are being played by the small percentage of people that control the wealth. The aristocracy love nothing more than watching the peasants squabble for some crumbs.

[Maestro]

9. Thanks

I hear the rhetoric all too often. It usually comes from people from whom I expect this. It just took me by surprise here. It shouldn't. I have seen some pretty polarized discussions on language use too. That was even discussed recently in one of the immigration threads.

[Cleita]

3. Thanks for an eloquent first hand view of the situation.

Recommended for first page. I hope others do too.

[Maestro]

7. Wow thanks.

I don't think anything of mine has been recommended for the first page. I am humbled.

[Beetwasher]

4. I Love The "It Isn't Illegal!" Arguments The Best

Yeah, maybe it's not illegal, but it sure is stupid and a recipe for disaster. As if these guys are just gonna sit around with their guns and merely call immigration on these poor people.

Shoving a red hot poker up your ass isn't illegal either. I suggest all the idiots defending the "minute men" shove a red hot poker up their ass since it's not illegal, it must good fun and patridiotic to boot!

[Maestro]

18. No kidding.

Flipping off an officer is technically not illegal( as far as I know) but it is antagonizing and a recipe for disaster as you say. Those freaks are heading for some trouble and simply further the stereotype of the dumb,xenophobic American.

[republicansareevil]

5. But I don't see the problems you're seeing.

I don't see people scapegoating illegal immigrants around here. I see some people discussing the problem of illegal immigration. That's not the same as being anti-immigrant. And I see other people discussing the human value of illegal immigrants. I don't think any true liberal would disagree with that. I think what causes the conflicts is when opposition to illegal immigration is portrayed as opposition to illegal immigrants fueled by racism. Yes, there are racists who just don't like Mexicans, but I don't think you'll find many on DU. The hiring of illegal immigrants hurts both the immigrants themselves and society in general. It's a lose-lose situation. The only ones making out are the "cheap labor" Republican companies who hire the illegal immigrants. I have sympathy for illegal immigrants, just like I have sympathy for poor people who shop at Walmart for the low prices, even though I feel they are hurting themselves and other poor communities in the long run.

[Maestro]

6. I don't think we disagree

The problem lies in the fact that many Americans employ these people knowing good and well that they are paying them nothing; do not have to pay social security taxes on them, insurance, etc...It is all contract, day labor. What needs to be done is for the Migra (immigration) to start cracking down on the American companies that employ illegals while the government makes honest attempts to help Mexico, primarily, build up its economy and defeat all the gaft and corruption that is there. The US started back in the early 1800's to meddle in Mexican/Central/South American concerns and for the most part failed miserably. If we want to protect "our" interests, let's begin to offer genuine help without the covert ops crappola.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[Bridget Burke]

10. How horrible. Too bad this is all a big secret....

And there's absolutely no way to confirm a word you've posted.

[Cleita]

19. Lot of these posts we can't confirm in the last few days.

Sometimes I attack them with facts, but I'm getting tired.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[mcscajun]

54. I checked it out...and then I checked out the CIS itself.

Here's what I found...big surprise. Not. All emphasis mine.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/org/cis.php

The Center for Immigration Studies describes itself as “the nation’s only think tank devoted exclusively to research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, fiscal, and other impacts of immigration on the United States.” Founded in 1985 as a think tank to support the more activist work of the anti-immigrant Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), CIS is dedicated “to expand the base of public knowledge and understanding of the need for an immigration policy that gives first concern to the broad national interest. The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted.”

CIS describes itself as “independent” and “nonpartisan,” but its studies, reports, and media releases consistently support its restrictionist agenda and works closely on Capitol Hill with Republican Party immigration restrictionists. However, CIS has achieved credibility with the media and in think tank circles because of its lack of the kind of strident anti-immigrant rhetoric associated with many restrictionist groups, its willingness to invite pro-immigrant voices to its forums, and the scholarly format of its reports.

(snip)

“Let’s be clear,” wrote Frank Sharry of the National Immigration Forum, “CIS was birthed by FAIR, the militant anti-immigration group. The CIS executive director moved from FAIR to CIS to head up the organization. Although now independent, the two organizations share the same basic agenda: an American version of what in Europe is called ‘zero immigration.’” According to Sharry, CIS masquerades as an objective, “squeaky clean” think tank, but CIS is “simply churning out high-sounding, low-credibility grist for the high-pitch, low-road anti-immigration forces in the United States.” This assessment of CIS is widely shared among pro-immigrant groups, but CIS studies are not only frequently cited by the “low-road” nativist forces but also by major news media.

(snip)

Early funding for CIS was channeled through U.S. Inc, a nonprofit established and still directed by John Tanton, who was one of the cofounders of the Federation of American Immigration Reform (FAIR). (3) Among the right-wing foundations that fund CIS are Sarah Scaife Foundation, John M. Olin Foundation, Jaqueline Hume Foundation, Carthage Foundation, and Scaife Family Foundation.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

60. You provided a bogus website. The burden of proof is on you.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

62. But hell, just for kicks here is one article from the SPL Center

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=173

And another from MHRC

http://www.morrismn.org/mhrc/articles/imgMyths.shtml

And here's one from "The Nation"
http://www.seattlecentral.org/faculty/dloos/ESLAwareness/FiveMythsAboutImmigration.htm

[Maestro]

63. Absolutely terrific sites!

Thank you. Just more ammo to back up what I know to be true. The SPL center is a fantastic site! I have been there many times.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

70. Here's a link to the Cato Institute

Certainly Cato Institute can't be accused of being "too liberal". Even their results show the myths.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html

Anywho, thanks for posting the OP

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

79. DId you see the link to the Cato Institute, a Conservative think tank?

How do you justify them not being able to be anti-immigrant. I'm not suggesting anything. But why bring up the Latino gangs and not all the white gangs? Gangs have nothing to do with immigration status.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

86. Show me. It says exactly the opposite and sites another anti-immigrant

website to do so.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

82. And the sites say, they got their research from the CATO Institute

hardly a "liberal" site.

[seventythree]

154. Uh, a conservative web site touting the benefits

of illegal/legal immigration? can we say BUSINESS -- cheap labor??? Get that HB1 to do that computer programmer's job for 3/4th the salary and a jump in the immigration line, and get the American to train them to replace him/her, on top of it. Nah, nothing the business community would be interested in.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

172. Legal immigration is not cheap labor.

Legal immigrants are not afraid to join unions or turn in unfair employers. The link does not specify legal/illegals.

[seventythree]

189. HB1's are cheaper labor

[SemiCharmedQuark]

194. People are complaining of their jobs being taken by people willing to work

for slave labor wages. YOu know perfectly well that LEGAL immigrants don't do that. Are they cheaper? Yes, but not by the vast amounts people fear. Provide a link showing me that they are so so so much cheaper.

[seventythree]

212. here you are.

Take a look a Wipro's entries in the Dept. of Labor's H-1B database (http://www.flcdatacenter.com/casesearch.asp). The vast majority of salaries are in the $40 and $50K range, this in a field in which the national median is over $70K.
http://www.itpaa.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=622

[SemiCharmedQuark]

217. The first link is broken.

The second link addresses problems from legal workers. And again, it involves people evading the law through loopholes, not those evil immigrants taking jobs from Americans.

[Maestro]

94. Why do you post things like

"There are Latino gangs that will kill you for the wrong look?" There are white, black, green and yellow gangs that will do the same. This is life. The more you post, the more I think that you simply don't like Hispanics.

[mcscajun]

74. Thanks for jumping in.

I just now saw this (I've been busy on other threads).

You said exactly what I would have, had I been here. :)

[Horse with no Name]

99. Where were you all last night?

I needed some help,lol.
:bounce:

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

80. LOL! It's from a group that sprung off FAIR-a known anti-immigrant site!

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

88. They have research from-surprise-another anti-immigrant group!

But anyway, they left out some from the article they cited. Specifically the NRC found that immigrants add 1-10 billion per year to the US revenue.


Here's a link.
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/more.php?id=1246_0_2_0

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

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[Maestro]

98. Let's see

The Washington Times is a known freeper mag as is The Dallas Morning News and the San Diego Union-Tribune. I don't know the other periodicals.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

101. Right on the National Review Home Page "The Vast Left Wing Conspiracy"

http://www.nationalreview.com/

Take a look. From their own "subscribe page"

"No other magazine is better than NR at analyzing the key decisions and appointments of the Bush Administration — or at seeing through the platitudes and exposing the machinations of liberal Democrats and their interest — group cohorts"

[Maestro]

113. I knew that

I'm posting too quickly. It's hard keeping up with this thread. I don't mind though. Thanks yet again.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

100. And they all wrote anti-immigration articles. What a surprise.

Very fair and balanced.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

121. You said "you people"

That's really funny to me. Not sure why. I'm sure you have plenty of links from Newsmax, etc... but you will not post them.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

137. Thank you. I'm so sick of people using anti-immigration to hide

their prejudices! Good work! :thumbsup:

[datasuspect]

90. how can it not be great?

brown babies are soooo beautiful

VIVA LA RAZA!

[Maestro]

61. Thanks

I've been referred to both sites before and I suspected that they were run by the reichwing agenda. I am now bookmarking this thread because of what what you posted. My sincerest thanks. My only regret is that far too many DUers have either been duped by these sites or are closeted freepers.

[mcscajun]

76. You're more than welcome.

I'm just a born skeptic and researcher. When anyone posts a vague link (one that doesn't make clear in the URL what it refers to) it piques my curiousity, and I generally want to dig a little deeper into the source.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

56. And then we'll ask Sean Hannity if he thinks Liberals cause most crimes

Maybe Rush too. It's alwas good to have more than one source.

[Maestro]

16. I am sure some get involved in crimes

It is natural as most are ill educated, one reason for coming here, and then find that the US is not paved with gold so they turn to petty crime and then unfortunately more serious crime. However, the percentages of Mexicans in the Mexican Mafia are small compared to the overall numbers that come here. Were all Italians at the turn of the century in the Mob? No, but the stereotype took a long time to break.

[Eloriel]

21. Oh, stuff a sock in it

I might be real upset about your "facts" were it not for the following facts:

* Our own domestic population of full citizens produce more gang members than illegals anyway;

* for every criminal illegal gang member there must be a thousand or more incrredibly productive, hard-working illegal immigrant;

* there are criminals in virtually any population you can name.

And btw, you can call me heavily biased, if you want. My formerly illegal alien (beautiful, talented, wonderful, productive, educated) daughter-in-law finally got her green card in the mail a couple of weeks ago.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[Cleita]

28. If NSMA was here, she has all the facts you need.

Now about that sock.....

[Maestro]

64. See post #62

or just keep on trucking...

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

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[Maestro]

87. Not nasty

I am just sick and tired of beating a dead horse. I fight this everyday tooth and nail with people. I'm in Texas so basically every 2 out of 3 people think like you in regards to immigration; however, it doesn't mean that you or they are correct. Sorry if I seem defensive, but for 11 years I have been fighting the rhetoric. It's tiring after a while. Did you read the great links in post #62?

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

93. And you told someone else to put a sock in it too.

If you don't want to be accused of being right wing, don't post links to right wing sites. You shouldn't be accused of such anyway, but you're adding fuel to the fire by posting RW trash and some people will break the rules out of emotion.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

106. I didn't abuse you. In fact I never said anything negative to you.

I don't understand the insult in the trucking thing, your username says "lisa b trucking". But whatever, I didn't say that.

And yeah, two wrongs don't make a right. So yep, you should just rise above it, or so I'm told.

[Maestro]

103. Look, you are fanning the flames

by posting things like "Latino gangs will kill you..." "...opening the borders." You sound like Pat Buchannan. Perhaps this site is not for you then. Posts have been made that refute what you think. If you don't like it, I'm sorry.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

110. Can they form their gangs if they come here legally?

Do you think the personalities of those that come here legally and those that come here illegally differ that much?

If you say that yes, they should come here legally, you still have to answer your own question. Why should we let ANYONE in when they have the potential to form gangs. England has a high rate of petty theft. We shouldn't allow the English in to come over here and pickpocket us.

If you say no, then how do you restrict citizens?

[Name removed]

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

118. I'm not the one arguing all the anti-immigration talking points!

You are. I have no problem with immigration or immigrants.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

124. For a good chunk of non-mexican immigrants, that would be a step down in

rights. The the war those pesky mexicans are dying from is a war the world has been fighting forever-poverty.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

131. LOL! I LOVE the idea! I never said I didn't!

But I know some immigrants and they have the easiest time in the world here. But oops, they're white. THey'd be pissed if they were treated the way Mexicans are, and I bet the way Sudanese people are too.

[Maestro]

141. Again, Mexicans have no special rights

You want to talk about special rights. How about Cubans that come here and if they can set foot here they are automatically granted residency? And besides the talk to the rethuglicans who could give a rat's ass about the Sudanese. They rather wage an illegal war over a personal vendetta in Iraq instead of helping the Sudanese.

Oh but at one Mexicans did have special rights but the law establishing these special rights was not followed. Go figure!

Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo

[Maestro]

140. They do come

There is a large population of Ethiopians and Sudanese in the Dallas area. They just can't compare to the numbers of Hispanics because of geography.

[Cleita]

114. Actually, one of those white gangs is patrolling the border right now.

Do a study sometimes of prison population gangs and their connections to not only churches and militias, but also militias that front as churches and patriotic organizations. You may find that the gang banger is in your your own little enclave. Isn't there something in the Bible about casting the first stone? What about people living in glass houses.

[Maestro]

144. Don't forget that the people

sucking the welfare system are mostly white. I can say that because I am white! ;)

[Cleita]

149. I know.

I lived up in Idaho for five years. It's very, very white. Every time I went to the supermarket, woman after woman ahead of me paid with food stamps and I know their husbands were working at their "good paying" jobs at the mill. About 60% paid with food stamps. No illegals there, but there were all those "good paying" jobs because the illegals weren't lowering the wages. Then they got to go home and cook over a woodburning stove in their cabins that very often didn't even have indoor plumbing.

[Maestro]

152. Pathetic

Isn't it? :shrug:

[seventythree]

158. bogus unless you look at %'s of population figures

[Maestro]

162. Prove it. -nt

[SemiCharmedQuark]

171. And why is that? Is it because Hispanics and Black Americans earn 70 cent

on the dollar? Boy, it would be very hard to drag oneself out of poverty earning less than 3/4 of the money someone else does for doing the same job.

[Cleita]

177. And that means what?

Are you talking percentagewise by population? Please post a link.

[seventythree]

215. from government census records

you have to search for the welfare stats, but the % of population figures are fairly easy to come by.
75% of the population is white, non-Hispanic -- 35.9% of welfare rolls
12% of the population is black -- 36.9% of the welfare rolls
13.3% of the population is Hispanic -- 20.8% of the welfare rolls
While numbers alone would show there are more whites on welfare,it's bogus,imo, without the total population % numbers. In just numbers, there are more whites for everything -- home owners, heart attacks, fish eaters,tax payers-- just because they are the largest racial group -- alone, it means nothing.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

221. Where's the link?

And also, as stated before, the inequalities in pay have to mean something too.

[seventythree]

231. try google

[Name removed]

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[Tansy_Gold]

147. It's not (just) what you've said, but it's the way you've said it

Your comments have frequently been very demeaning and degrading about one particular group of people -- I guess I would politely describe them as dark-skinned people who sometimes speak Spanish. And your comments suggest to me and perhaps to others that you would prefer that all of these dark-skinned people who sometimes speak Spanish be removed from this country.

A great many of those dark-skinned people who sometimes speak Spanish are legal residents of this country. Indeed, many of them are second, third, fourth, and even fifth generation citizens of this country. They are not all criminals, they are not all alcoholics, they are workers and mothers and teachers and scientists and police officers and farmers and librarians and accountants and cooks and printing press operators and veterinarians and artists and sons and sisters and cousins and grandfathers. They are married and single and divorced and gay and in love and in hate and rich and poor and beautiful and happy and lonely.

In other words, they are human beings. Just like (most of) the rest of us.

[Maestro]

150. Thanks Tansy_Gold

You need to refer Lisabtrucking and a few others to some of your other posts on immigration. Thanks again.

[Cleita]

111. Everytime someone doesn't agree with you, you say that

they are nasty to you. I think your disingenuous posts about an underclass of people, saying that they are a big cause of crimes, are more nasty than talking about socks.

Who do you think you are, passing judgement on a whole class of people you probably don't even talk to?

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

120. Hey, I remember this one time a white guy commited a crime...

Oh how I hate those whites! They are nasty!

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

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[SemiCharmedQuark]

127. You said illegals were "nasty" because one illegal peed in front of your

kid. Now now, you have to be fair and apply that logic across the board.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

132. And Cleita had a great point, how do you know he was illegal?

Did you ask him for his papers?

[ultraist]

207. We don't have to spin it lisabtrucking

Many of us read another post of yours calling "illegal aliens nasty" drunken, criminals who piss in public. It was deleted because so many found it offensive and racist, remember?

[Cleita]

128. Is that what your charming little graphic is all about?

How do you know the guy was illegal? How did you know what his ethnicity was? I think you are full of shit. I've been hearing this same crap for sixty years. It's always something they did that no one can collaborate. If you want to publish the police report with names blocked out and your 13 year olds deposition, I might believe you.

In the south prior to desegregation, the police have always been good at setting up blacks with this type of crap so they could throw them in jail and beat them up.

BTW, my cousin's husband was a San Antonio, Texas cop back in the forties. He bragged about stuff like this.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

134. Made your feeling on illegal immigration even stronger?

Why? Do you think Cleita, Maestro, and I are illegals?

[Cleita]

136. And that we regularly pull our pants down

to pee in public?

[Maestro]

146. I am white as white can be.

My boy didn't want his pic taken.



I look fat don't I? ;)

[Cleita]

135. If you are not white, you can still be racist.

That's a fact.

I think you have another axe to grind and aren't being honest about it. Blaming a convenient scapegoat is handy for your purposes though, closing the border. Well, you make me feel so much better that it wasn't about racism after all just building a wall around the USA and telling them, you all go now. I'm in so shut the gate behind me.

[Maestro]

145. So now we get at the root of the cause

of your hatred. Just because some low-class Hispanic, who may or may not be an illegal immigrant, pisses in front of your child, you think they are all like this. That is a mighty wide brush you paint. My quarter Hispanic kids and my half Hispanic wife appreciate your sentiments. You my friend have a problem. I can point to all races that have disgusting people like this.

[Maestro]

187. Yet you have graphic

of someone pissing on *.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

123. Fuck! You said it again.

You really must be more careful.

[Cleita]

24. Thanks. I couldn't muster the strength to do so.

Recovering from a bad disease. :hi:

[Horse with no Name]

96. Congratulations to her

I applaud her efforts and welcome her to our country legally.:)

[Maestro]

107. Conversationally she is very fluent in English

but lacks academically in both her first language and English obviously. Unfortunately * and his NCLB are punishing her for not learning English at the same academic level as other 5th graders who were born and raised here. My disdain for * and his ilk knows no bounds. This was her third year and according to Shrubhead, she was supposed to be able to speak and work academically at a 5th grade in English. I've heard asshat * speak Spanish. He can not even talk at a cognitive level in Spanish so why does he impose such harsh standards on children? We lose funds under NCLB. Oh wait, he must comply with his reichwing masters' desires and the rest of the anti-immigration wing of the party.

[seventythree]

27. Geesh, another side to the story?

When I read things like the OP, I am reminded of Terri Schiavo -- argument from emotion. Once I posted on an immigration site, and I was admonished to read a link from supposed "neutrals" on the issue. I had posted the $$ cost of a Mexican immigrant to society because of low earning ability, and the responder took exception to it. I read the suggested link, and it said that there IS a cost to state and local government, but not to federal. Without arguing that point, it was clear that even the "neutral" source had agreed with me.

First it was farm labor, then tourist industry, now formerly well-paying construction jobs. The world is full of needy people in 3rd world countries -- does it stop with the US becoming one? My Latino friends feel strongly that everyone should come here legally, as they had to, and from what I read, it's a pretty common sentiment.

[Cleita]

29. Legally is the best way to do everything and everybody

wants to do it that way. Why do you think gays want marriage?

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seventythree]

39. wouldn't be the first time I got called a freeper, here.

God bless those with their heart on their sleeve -- we need them, too. But I think it is best to stick to facts when making policy decisions. For those who allow their emotions to rule their heads, there are all too many outlets for their concerns -- plenty of places in the world to go to help the downtrodden, unfortunately. I fear that their good works and concerns will increasingly be needed in every town in America, when the HB1 Visa's, and the low income illegals, and the exported jobs in the name of bringing up the 3rd world, send us all into poverty. There's only one place for us to go with all this stuff happening, and that is down -- personally, I don't want to. Call me a greedy American, but I prefer not to live in a tent.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

57. The web site DOES attack illegals and it is completely anti-immigrant.

You might as well say the GOP website "gives both sides of the story".
If they are non-partisan, I'm a bloody leprechaun.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/org/cis.php

[Maestro]

151. Listen I have had it with you

enjoy your stay. John Stanton, one of the people at your reference web site, is the founder of Pro-English, a racist, anti-immigration site. People like him disgust me. If you think like him, I am ashamed that you are a member of DU.

[Maestro]

67. Your facts are wrong

And you the one reacting emotionally to this without looking at the facts. Have you seen SemiQuarkedCharm's post, #62?

[seventythree]

148. oops, you made my point again!

"Because states provide most services used by immigrants, they can be net financial losers, while the federal government is typically a net gainer."
from the first link on #62. Didn't I say this already? Also, do notice that the SPLC site is talking ALL immigrants -- not illegal and not Latin American, low income immigrants, which is where the discussion has been for much of this thread.

Cato????? OMG!!! and do notice the wage depression stats are, at the latest, 1989!!!!! and CATO even recognizes wage depression at the lowest rungs -- nope, illegals aren't depressing wages of the CEO's -- I'll give you that. Do you really think the in-flux of the last 16yrs is reflected in this old data?

[Maestro]

153. You're funny

Enjoy your stay. There are plenty of links that refute what you believe. Read. It does a mind good.

[seventythree]

161. When you get caught

espousing a link which argues against your point and for mine -- you tell me to go read. What a hoot.

[Maestro]

165. I fail to see how a link

to the SLP proves your point. Nor this link: http://www.morrismn.org/mhrc/articles/imgMyths.shtml
nor this one.

http://www.seattlecentral.org/faculty/dloos/ESLAwareness/FiveMythsAboutImmigration.htm

Not even this one from a conservative think tank.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html

What is your point?

[seventythree]

192. Since I cut and pasted

the applicable quote from the S. Poverty Law Center, I do not understand why you don't get that you linked to something that refuted your point and made mine.


"Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare programs than natives."

Geesh -- you did it again!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

196. Did you stop reading at that sentence?

Because it goes on to say that it still does not mean that illegals "drain" resources.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

170. You know perfectly well you are ignoring a big fact.

First, they say that "states CAN be net financial losers" but the fed. government is a net gainer. Second, the gain by the Fed far exceeds the loss by the states, which may not even exist (and if they do, they are confined to areas of high immigration-NY, IL, CA).

CATO is no immigrant lover. Yet their article shows that immigrants are good for the government. If we made it easier to be LEGAL then we wouldn't have people working in sub standard conditions because they were afraid of being sent back to Mexico.

[Maestro]

178. Is that it?

Also, add the fact the fact that if companies would not hire undocumented workers, immigration were reformed to make it easier for people who want to contribute to this country to come, and kick those out of power who are linked financially to those same companies that employ undocumented workers at horribly low wages, much of the perceived problem would lessen. But that won't happen. That would mean the big business would have to pay higher wages and benefits to workers. God forbid!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

181. Apparently the "states suffer" argument is a common one.

http://www.aila.org/contentViewer.aspx?bc=17,142#section3

I like this site. It lists its sources at the bottom.

[Maestro]

183. Yet again

Magnificent site. Thanks. This thread has been a gold mine of information.

[seventythree]

180. hmmmm

As you may know Bush in his recent meeting with Vincente Fox is proposing a 754 million dollar per year SS provision for Mexicans who pay in here. The only way the feds gain, if they do and I haven't seen the breakdown on this from the SPLC link, is because their contribution to state medicaid and education is offset by those SS (and medicare) dollars which haven't left ... yet. If you want to say that the feds gain far exceeds the loss to the states, you must first cite it, and second you need to explain how any net fed gain washes the loss to the states.
Gee, if I were Cato hawking for the business community, I think I'd say that illegals were good for the government, too. Wouldn't you?
As you might guess, I am a big fan of Lou Dobbs -- do you ever catch his show on CNN? As a wall street,pro-capitalist sort he takes a lot of flak for his views on illegal immigration.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

182. Ok, here's your citation.

And a WHOLE BIG LIST of citations that the author used too.

http://www.aila.org/contentViewer.aspx?bc=17,142#section3

[SemiCharmedQuark]

188. Here is another great site:

http://www.hatefreezone.org/index.asp?name=immigrationmyths

Again, citations are listed.

[seventythree]

200. No, your link does not prove up your statement

"If you want to say that the feds gain far exceeds the loss to the states, you must first cite it, and second you need to explain how any net fed gain washes the loss to the states."

I know it is late, but you said the feds gain exceeds the state's losses from illegal, as I recall, immigration. To know the truth of what you said, you will need to link to something which gives the state's losses, as well as the feds gains in $$'s and programs, and then you'll need to explain how the feds gain washes the state's loss. For example, if the feds gain in SS dollars which will never go to the payer because he/she is illegal, I'd need to know what the illegal is costing the state to know if the fed's gain exceeds the state's loss, and then I'd need to know how that makes it wash with the state -- because the state legal SS recipient is going to get more because the illegal didn't get any, and thus, the money reenters the state for goods and services and state/local taxes??? See?

Again, I believed we were talking in the context of illegal workers, and what you have cited -- debunking the myths -- all refer to legal immigrants.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

201. The issue of "states losses" is debatable. No article has difinitively

said that they even exist while a net gain of federal income is agreed to exist.

Secondly, if illegals are the problem, but legal immigrants are great, why not open the borders?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

204. Also, you haven't provided a single article that backs up your assertions

Not one.

[seventythree]

213. The borders are open to legals

who follow the process -- that process may take time, however.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

219. The process is impossible for Mexicans.

You are dancing around the issue and you know it. It's not about amnesty, it's about making it easier for people to come here and work legally and be treated with human decency because they aren't afraid of being hauled back to Mexico.

[seventythree]

229. why is it impossible?

Many of my friend's parents got here legally. I live in a community which has been 25% Mexican American since I was a child -- I know there had to be some illegals, but many were legal -- how did they get here, legally? It's not about amnesty? What are you proposing, then? Bush's "willing employer/willing worker" thingy? With some tweaking, and a congressional finding of a worker shortage in an industry with a set number of prospective employees, tracking placed on the employer back, and a requirement to go back home after a particular number of years and give someone else a chance at decent pay for a few years, I could deal with it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

179. Your facts are wrong---49/50 states benefit...California is in question.

"In Congressional testimony, University of California, Berkeley economist Ronald Lee, the principal author of the fiscal analysis in the National Academy of Sciences study, concluded that a dynamic analysis, with the appropriate assumptions, would likely show that 49 of the 50 states come out ahead fiscally from immigration, with California a close call"

Or here

"Professor Lee testified that some have misinterpreted the Academy study’s use of the annual costs of immigrant households to argue that immigrants are a large fiscal cost to states. He has stated that “These numbers do not best represent the panel’s findings and should not be used for assessing the consequences of immigration policies.” He found that it is misleading, on an annual basis, to calculate the schoolage, native-born children of immigrants as costs caused by immigrant households but not to include the taxes paid by those children when they enter the workforce. Professor Lee also testified: “Reducing immigration would make it more difficult to support the health and retirement of the baby boom generation.”1"


If you don't want Mexicans here, just say so, but don't hide behind phony talking points.

http://www.aila.org/contentViewer.aspx?bc=17,142#section3

[seventythree]

184. I'll read your link

but on the surface -- don't the taxes the kids pay when they grow up pay for their kids' education????? Again, this study, on the surface, appears to speak to ALL legal immigrants. I don't think anyone here is arguing against legal immigration.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

186. Nobody is arguing that illegal immigration is right.

But immigrants are coming and that is a fact. If you don't want them to make wages lower from everyone else then you have to take away the fear they have of reporting bad employers for fear of being deported.

Why can't we have more legal immigrants?

[seventythree]

193. No problem

they go home and take their turn in line.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

195. You didn't answer the question.

Do you know how hard it is to be a Mexican and get into this country legally? And do you know how many illegals there are?

Again, I ask why is it so difficult to become legal? People face a desert because they know they don't stand a chance of getting here legally.

[seventythree]

211. Is it fair for those who wait

in their home country -- and Mexico is no worse than many others -- to be bumped by an HB1 visa, which gives superior rights vis a vis the home country person waiting? Is it right that the process for immigration, which involves background checks and interviews, is thwarted by illegal entry? Is it safe? (hint: terrorists got here by thwarting that process in a variety of ways) Is it right to reward law breakers when we demand that our own citizen's obey our laws?

We did give amnesty in the 1980's -- did it stem the tide, or increase it? This is not 1910 -- and the needs of our country are far different. Did you ever go to Ellis (sp?) Island and see what our fore mothers/fathers had to prove up to be allowed entry? And many were sent back. Our immigration quotas -- and there is also a lottery which is how one of the 9/11 terrorists got in -- exist to monitor flows of skills and families. Are we just a giant marketplace, or are we a country? John Lennon be blessed, we haven't reached a utopia of no borders, and most of us aren't ready to see ourselves as just a marketplace. It has been a long hard struggle and we are still struggling for true equality, do we want to change the culture which has struggled so mightily for egalitarianism? Look at Europe.

Is there no responsibility to change one's own country into a place where people don't want to flee? Did we not have to go through that? Do we steal the self determination from a people when we allow their most tenacious ready, illegal, access?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

220. Oh here we go with the terrorists (the 9/11 terrorists were here LEGALLY)

Our wonderful culture has fought long and hard against equality. And now you bring in "personal responsibility". Why don't you tell that to all the people on DU who want to move to Canada.

You haven't provided a link proving all your assertions about illegals.

[seventythree]

228. overstayed visas aren't legal

and the one who came in on the lottery, there was something, although I don't recall it all, about being denied before and then he won that lottery. I think the lottery sort of side stepped the usual interview/background check process, but I could be wrong. I believe you have been provided with any links you've asked for.

[Maestro]

65. We not arguing the fact that illegal immigration is good or bad

In fact, in my first post I said I do not condone it; however, being a realist, I know it will happen. With that in mind, I wanted to state that what has been said about immigration is wrong. Legal or illegal, it is not the drain on the society that some (many) think it is. See post #62 for facts. I work with these people all the time. What I see is far different than what some of the rhetoric suggests.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Beautifully said. The immigrants aren't the enemy.

They are the victims of predatory capitalism that steals their country's resources and leaves them to starve then employs them at minimum wage to do the work that Americans won't do.

The argument that the immigrants "are stealing our jobs" is horseshit of the purest grade on the face of it. If that were true, where are all the Americans lining up to pick tomatoes or wash bedpans or mop floors?

Want to stop "illegal immigration" start forcing the companies that go overseas to start paying the same wages as Americans get.

Rather than blaming the poorest of the poor, we should be in solidarity with them against the rich exploiters.

[Power Trowell]

31. The "Americans won't do this work " argument is full of crap IIMO

I mean go to North Dakota, South Dakota - both states with very low numbers of
undocumented workers. You will find 95% European stock (white) Americans. Guess
what - they have landscapers in North Dakota, they have roofers, framers, they have bus
boys in restauraunts, cooks, maids in hotels.

The economy of this country would NOT collapse absent illegal immigrant labor - what
would happen is that Americans at the low end of the wage scale would start seeing
increases in real wages as employers had to compete in a labor market place absent cheap
exploitable labor.

At one time the democratic party stood with people on the low end of the wage scale. Anyone who's ever been in a union understandst that restricting the labor supply raises wages - but apparently that is a point lost here, in the dem party and in the party of cheap labor conservatives.

But when you are in an environment full of teachers, college students, financial planners, and government workers (DU) - people who will never face competition from workers willing to work for $5 an hour and live 10 to an apartment, you can afford to be for open
borders and throw around the racist charge.

I'd like to import 2 million Mexican bilingual teachers who would be willing to work for school districts
for $8,000 a year (and there would be plenty),then see DU teachers get
fired in droves as school boards cut their operating costs by 50% - and then tell them that teaching school was something "Americans won't do"

Furthermore crushing the work force with cheap labor hurts the very ethnic groups that people claim they are worried about. Legal Hispanic immigrants see their wages in these low end jobs, stagnating, due to the oversupply of cheap labor.

Finally I think everyone recognizes it's corrupt companies that are to blame but if you don't like minutemen on the border - are you in favor of them storming companies and checking documentation? They are frustrated at the unwillingness of either party to protect our borders (for differing reasons I believe). But in your scenario of punishing companies = the results are the same - undocumented immigrants won't be able to work here and won't have a reason to come here and will have to migrate back home - so how is that any worse than not letting them in the first place - unless you don't really intend any success in punishing employers.

[countryjake]

37. Why don't you take a poll?

I don't fit your skewed generalization about DU or the Democratic party & it makes my blood boil when I hear born & bred working class people misdirecting their anger at other hardworking people!

[Power Trowell]

43. Fine you don't fit it - the person who started the thread is a teacher

He/she will NEVER compete with an undocumented worker for a teaching job in a government school system.

So if you are in a low education, job like I am - it's cool with you to have to compete with people willing to live 10 to a trailer and work for $5. Why do you think wages rose in the 90s when unemployment was at historic lows - employers had to bid up the wage rate to entice workers to work.

I had a business installing driveways for people. By the end of the summer I could charge 50% more than the beginning because there were so few people doing that work - and I also was able to get people to quit working for other small time guys by offering them more money. Supply and demand - if cheap labor is supplied - wages will remain stagnant.

[Redstone]

48. Boy, that was a quick save!

First, ALL of DU is "teachers, college students, financial planners, and government workers."

Then, when challenged, a quick switch like what you see a fourth-grader do: "Well, well, if you're NOT all (teachers, etc), well, then, you see, the OP is! So there!

Ohhhhkay....

Redstone

[Power Trowell]

49. Thanks for noticing

too bad you misread my post. You even capitalized a word I never used.
(Hint - cut and paste is your friend)

Here is what you said I said (cut and pasted from your post)-

"Boy, that was a quick save!"
Posted by Redstone

First, ALL of DU is "teachers, college students, financial planners, and government workers."

Now is what I actually said:

But when you are in an environment full of teachers, college students, financial planners, and government workers (DU)

_______________________

Understand the difference between ALL and full????????

And I stand by the original gist of my statement. DU is full of people who will never be in competition for a hod carrier job , or a roofing job or a cement finishing job with an illegal alien who is willing to live 10 to a trailer and work for $6 an hour.

Conversely if employers paid $20 an hour to dig footings - there would be plenty of American born workers lining up to fill those jobs - though probably not from DU.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[countryjake]

50. Former member of ILGWU & IAM here.

Being employed as a "spinner" & making better wages than a lot of other non-union garment workers, I watched not only my skill, but my union being destroyed by that suspicious theory of "supply & demand". I don't see people in this country wearing less clothes, do you?

Back when the downfall began, at first the trade was flooded by an influx of non-English speaking East Europeans who immigrated here legally after Communism came to there homes...plant tried to use that language barrier to keep us divided but we demanded that all must become union members to work there, problem solved & lots of us learned Romanian or Polish.

Then lots of Asians hired in & had better work ethics than we did; they also didn't speak the language & had amazing abilities to raise standards on the looms & spinners, compared to what we were willing to meet. Union already had agreements on quotas & standards but the plant managed to lever these hard worker's eagerness to work against us & the bar was raised. Lots couldn't keep up & left the industry; others developed resentment towards Asian work ethic.

When the "runaway shop" threats began, the union became effectively helpless. The demand was still abundant but cheaper labor south of the border made the "supply" factor a moot point. As long as it was too expensive for our plant to pick up & produce elsewhere, we maintained the bargaining power; once markets were "freed" we lost our plant.

Throughout the entire demise of the garment & textile industry in this country, the companies ALWAYS used race, language-barriers, & work ethics to maintain a division among the workers. Our union struggled against such tactics fairly effectively until outsourcing became the tool used to bust it. To this day, some blame the demands of that union for the loss of the trade in this country. The total exploitation of those able & willing to work was the reason unions were formed in the first place; since globalization has expanded that exploitation to places our unions can't touch, we need our own "globalization" tactics to ensure & insure decent lives for all workers, cause the "supply & demand" no longer applies to just us. There is no shortage of work, just a shortage of profiteers willing to give it to us.

[Maestro]

72. While I sympathize with your situation

are you blaming immigrants or big industry? My wife also lost her textile job by the way to NAFTA.

[countryjake]

84. Just a personal example of how employers try to keep us divided

I think it's impossible to blame "immigrants" for anything that's wrong in this country, since hardly a one of us can claim our ancestors were NOT immigrants. I guess I got lost in my response to the guy who was pointing out cheap labor is what drives our wages down...sorry. But a determined organized work force, in every industry & trade, is the only way we will ever hold our ground with those who buy our labor. Demanding a living wage for every employee of those companies who have left us here, stranded, is the only way to keep our own wages from "stagnating" & demanding the same for those we believe are stealing our jobs here is the solution to "illegal" migrants providing cheap labor. Seeing their plight as our plight, so to speak, & uniting.

[Maestro]

117. I understand now

and I agree. Corporations need to provide decent wages and salaries to workers plus compensation. They refuse to do this by hiring undocumented workers so the union loses. Unions need to advocate good wages for all regardless of status and let the best man or woman win. Corporations always take the easy way out which is more profit for the CEOs not the workers. Okay I think I understand your point. I haven't had a raise in 4 years and my health care costs have sky-rocketed. In Texas, teachers can not be in a union. It's against the law. I wonder if this would be different if we could threaten a strike?

[countryjake]

175. A living wage, safe working conditions, benefits, & job security.

That is what I'd like to see for all of us, in this country & the employees of companies that have been outsourced. And like that other fellow was saying, we can't compete with those willing to work for $5/hr, so get through to them that none of us should have to live that way. They need advocates who support them, not workers in the same field who despise them. (pun not intended) These undocumented migrants are powerless to even try to organize or complain about unfair practices used against them so it's up to others with the self-same interests to do something to stop ALL exploitation.

I read where your wife was smart enough to get herself more education when the garment industry disappeared. Unfortunately, I had already established a little side-work for myself, while factory work was still available, so I mistakenly tried to depend on a service industry when manufacturing jobs were no longer to be had.

Much like the hod carrier above, I found myself more & more competing for jobs with people who were not accustomed to earning good money for their services. Living in an area where population is low, I had the advantage of being able to seek out those who were unconsciously undercutting themselves (& me), got to know them, & finally suggested that if we all set the same prices for our services, we would all benefit. It was not an easy thing to do, as competitive attitudes are hard to negotiate with, but having notebooks full of figures...years worth of jobs, hours, & pay, with black & white examples of how my own rates had slowly risen, ended up being my best tool to demonstrate that they didn't have to live that way & not to sell themselves short. My tactic succeeded & tho I no longer am able to do that particular type of work, these days the going rate in my county is now $10 an hour more than it was when I feared it wouldn't be a dependable way of making a living.

And, ironically, some of those same people who took my advice back then are now complaining of the same problem, with their rates being threatened by newcomers just trying to earn a buck. One friend became indignant when I pointed out that the only reason I even knew her was because she had moved here & done the same thing to me; now, she seems to be making headway in building a shaky solidarity, but it certainly is not an easy thing to do. Only works if one's livelihood depends on it.

You have my utmost sympathy if you are in education. Even organized teachers are having a hard time of it these days, with the media playing into the demonization of every teachers' strike, using public sentiments of "duty to our children" to pit parents against any attempts to make things better. You are battling a double-edged sword.

[seventythree]

166. excellent

until we get trade agreements which require that participating countries have to allow unionization (Mexico) we are just going to continue down the chute.

[Maestro]

69. You're

correct I wouldn't compete with someone doing my job for $8,000 a year. I am not denying that. If that is what my job ending up paying, I would adpat and look for something else unfortunately. My wife lost her job to the maquiladora industry in Mexico, NAFTA. Instead of bitching about it, after the initial shock, she went back to school and is now working with me in the education industry. Economics can be brutal.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

126. Probably a limousine liberal also. n/t

[republicansareevil]

44. I said on another thread that the US work force is like a big labor union.

Having "non-unionized" (i.e. illegal) workers who will work below the "union wage" (i.e. minimum wage and the true market wage that would result if only legal workers were available) hurts everyone except the companies hiring the illegal labor.

[Power Trowell]

46. That argument can only make sense

to people who have actually belonged to a union.

former member BLE local 36

[SemiCharmedQuark]

92. Only if the labor union refuses to let in a hell of a lot of workers.

What are those that are rejected by labor unions supposed to do? Lay down in the street and die?

[RandomKoolzip]

108. Excuse me?

But when you are in an environment full of teachers, college students, financial planners, and government workers (DU) - people who will never face competition from workers willing to work for $5 an hour and live 10 to an apartment, you can afford to be for open
borders and throw around the racist charge.

So ALL of DU's members are part of the Intellectual Elite, eh?

To borrow a quote from one of my Ecuadorean co-workers, "I don't pinche think so, gringo."

I myself am a line cook at a restaurant. I am one of two gringos who works in the kitchen. We are all getting paid less than a living wage. I work 70+ hours a week. I love the guys I work with. I speak to them in Spanish and they respect that.

If you think that DU is made up solely of bearded Berkeley intellectuals driving Volvos, etc (y'know, the standard bullshit stereotypes about liberals), you ought to actually take the time to get to know some of us and quit the generalizations.

[Maestro]

142. Thank you.

Yet again people who actually work with these people know how it really is.

[seventythree]

164. absolutely!

[Lisa0825]

13. Beautiful post, Maestro!

I was an English tutor for a non-profit for a couple years myself. I really enjoyed it, and am hoping to do it again sometime, maybe even in Mexico.

My ex-husband hired day laborers to help with his business. However, he paid them very well, like he would have paid anybody of any background. In fact, when the guys in the area heard about him, they used to compete for a chance to work for him. In addition, when one was hurt on the job, he personally took him to a neighborhood clinic and paid for his care and his prescription. He also enrolled him in English classes. Unfortunately, many people who employ illegal immigrants don't care as much about them as my ex did. I don't say a whole lot of nice things about my ex, but I did respect that he honestly cared about his workers, regardless of what anyone thinks about him breaking laws by employing them.

I had a long distance relationship with a man in Mexico for two years, and had the chance to spend a lot of time around non-tourists in Mexico. I fell in love with the country and culture. I have a huge amount of respect for those who come here and do whatever they can to make lives better for their families.

Thank you for your very moving post.

[Runcible Spoon]

14. Great post. thanks!

I am trying to talk about global commodity chains, neoliberal economic "reforms", seasonal population migrations, etc. in another thread but it seems much easier for many people to blame the brown people rather than looking at the root of the problem: neocon economic policy (and I'm sorry, NAFTA was the worst thing Clinton could have dont!)

But you're right, DU sounds like Buchanan Underground right now!

[ashmanonar]

205. interestingly enough...

try looking at this article/essay by al martin. very interesting stuff, it semi-explains why clinton "pushed" nafta.

High Crimes of the Bush Cabal

[EFerrari]

15. Al fin. Mil gracias. n/t

[Maestro]

41. No hay problema

Fue un placer agregarle algo positivo a la discusión.

Translation

No problem

It was a pleasure to add someting positive to the discussion.

[countryjake]

17. I wish I could rid my vocabulary of the term "illegal alien"!

Living in a county which has a large migrant population, with many having established this as their "home-base", it's a term that shouldn't ever even be applied anymore. I know people who have lived & worked as farm laborers for decades & they are not only valuable members of our community, supporting this county's economy (& paying into social security) but they also happen to never have "got the papers" necessary to be considered a legal citizen. We have no "agro-business" in this county & if these farmworkers decided to leave or were suddenly all deported, my county would go bankrupt immediately, as many of these small farm businesses are already struggling & agriculture is the main industry.

I don't see these workers as either "illegal" or "alien"; they've been our friends & neighbors for years & they are what our county's economy depends on. Valuable assets would be a more correct term, around here.

[Cleita]

20. I think we need to coin our own terms, not use their's on so

many points even beyond immigration.

[republicansareevil]

38. "illegal labor" or "unregulated labor"

Or...

"worker exploitation"
"imported outsourcing"
"the labor underworld"
"underground labor"

All those terms describe the real problem. And while I don't deny the contributions illegal immigrants (and I still think that is a valid term) make to this country, both financially and culturally, I still think people coming into the country illegally and working off the books is more harmful on the whole than it is beneficial. I don't blame anyone for doing what they need to do to make ends meet, but that doesn't mean I have to pretend that the consequences of the situation are all to the good. Illegal employment hurts Americans and hurts the illegal workers in the long run.

[Cleita]

47. I like "worker exploitation" then it can cover a lot more

than just Hispanic immigrants by including them in a bigger problem.

[Maestro]

40. Couldn't agree more.

They are certainly valuable! I love working with their kids. They are, for the most part, very eager learners. It is not until they become "assimilated" that they begin to show some of the bad attitudes that many Americans have towards teachers and education in general. Talking about another term is the one I just used. I hate the word assimilated. Really, c'mon. Is our society the Borg for Star Trek? :shrug: If anything our society is a mosaic.

[Eloriel]

25. Maestro -- let's say it musically, as well

Anyone who wants an artist's eye view into illegal immigration (along with other voiceless or forgotten people), might want to get a copy of Bruce Springsteen's luminous and deeply moving "The Ghost of Tom Joad" CD. I love it, and there are several cuts that move me to tears. Every single time.

[G_j]

52. nominated.... n/t

[Maestro]

73. Wow! I don't know why

but I wouldn't think that Springsteen would be singing about immigration. My other hobby, besides posting on DU and fuming about politics, is music. I will check that out. Thanks.

[ashmanonar]

206. heh...rage's Ghost of Tom Joad is good too.

:D

sorry, i'm a huge fan of Rage Against The Machine. too bad they're broken up...:(

[satya]

26. Illegal immigrants pay $7 BILLION into Social Security yearly

(emphasis mine)

Illegal immigrants aid Social Security
Workers' payroll taxes yearly bring up to $7 billion

By EDUARDO PORTER
THE NEW YORK TIMES

STOCKTON, Calif. -- Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Angel Martinez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.

Not surprisingly, Martinez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Martinez -- who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States -- contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.

Last year, Martinez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages like those of any other worker. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare when they turn 65, Martinez is not entitled to any benefit.

He belongs to a big club. As the debate about Social Security heats up, the estimated 7 million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.
more

edited to add 4th paragraph

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Ssshhh. You don't want anyone to think "illegal immigrants" help us.

They're evil parasites stealing "good" jobs from 'Murikans and bankrupting the country. Just ask Scooter and Ray Bob down at the border when they sober up.

[EFerrari]

36. lol. No! Keep 'em liquored up. They're less destructive that way :)

[Maestro]

75. or the Minutemen.

Someone needs to pass a copy of that and other links here to those ignorant screwballs.

[EFerrari]

33. I put this idea out before, and will try to say it again.

The Cabal wants to stir anti-immigrant sentiments AND keep their cheap labor.

Please read that again.

Undocumented workers are the natural allies of workers, Labor, progressives. Because our goals are the same: basic quality of life for working people.

I never thought I'd read on DU the threads I've been hiding, one after another, in the last week or so.

Don't take the bait. Think. Don't believe the faked numbers, statistics and anecdotes. Think, find out for yourselves.

Again, mil gracias, Maestro. Here, from California where Spanish is a co-official language by treaty, I salute you. And "Rodrigo" and "Maria" whom I have met many times, worked with, taught, learned from.

Beth

[Maestro]

155. No problem

I too will see them tomorrow along with their kids. They are awesome as are all races. We have a wonderful mosaic here and that is what makes us great as a country. Others fear differences. We celebrate them.

[kslib]

34. Beautiful post.

I recommended it because it changed my mind. I was indifferent, but not anymore. Bravo; thanks for writing! :)

[Maestro]

143. Then it has all been...

worthwhile. :hug:

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

35. Ok... I need to respond

I am an immigration professional (in fact, a corporate immigration paralegal).

I am a legal immigrant myself.

I did not know one word of English when I arrived to the U.S. in 1987.

No one spoke my language where I lived or went to school.

I enrolled in high school in rural North Carolina without any ESL classes or assistance.

I managed to graduate from college.

Unlike other immigrants, my parents did not come here for a better life but, rather, because my father was employed by this company in my home country that had a subsidiary in rural NC.

I know full well from personal and professional experience the pains, tribulations and travails of those who try to tackle with the myriad regulations, filing fees, attorneys and other blood-sucking scum out there in a sea of ever-changing USCIS (f/k/a INS) rules, regulations, interpretations, etc.

But please, please, the reason why some immigrants are 'legal' and others are 'illegal' is simple....

Entering U.S. soil without inspection, a visa or other authorization to enter the U.S. is ILLEGAL, regardless of the reason. If we don't like this, we either advocate for a program to allow people to come to the U.S. (my preferred option) or we open the borders completely to anyone. Enterint illegally always results in being unable to become a U.S. permanent resident (i.e, green card holder) or work lawfully, unless an amnesty is authorized by Congress (and even then, there are strict requirements for eligibility).

Overstaying a visa is UNAUTHORIZED. While the entry was lawful, the subsequent stay beyond the expiration of the visa isn't. Our choices are simple: we can change the laws or we can accept them.

Working without authorization from the government is ILLEGAL. Both the aliens who work illegally and the companies who take advantage of them should be held liable. Using false documents (including documents not belonging to the person) is FRAUD; yes, it is a crime. Paying someone $500 for a fake social security card or green card is a crime.

This has nothing to do with race, language, etc.

I know of and deal with on a daily basis legal immigrants from all corners of the world, of all colors, nationalities, languages, etc. Among them are Canadians, Mexicans, Nigerians, Ethiopians, etc.

In fact, the majority of these legal immigrants are not from "white" countries.

I find it very simplistic to relegate those who do not advocate illegal immigration or who do not approve of it as "racists."

Wanting to make a better life for yourself is not a justification for breaking a basic law of U.S. immigration. If we want to allow people to make a better life for themselves in the U.S., then we should simply open the borders.

What is the purpose of immigration laws, then? Why should anyone go through the burdens of immigration obstacles if one can just cross the border (either border; north and south) and live a life in fear of immigration authorities?

No one is questioning the work ethic of illegal immigrants. No one is questioning the cultural and, in some instances, economic benefits of illegal immigration. But hopefully no one should be blind to the downsides either.

But just opening up the borders will not be a solution.

Say you are in a very long long line waiting to get a piece of bread to feed your family. You have to be in line because you want to do things the right way. Yet, someone else cuts in line in front of you because he wants to feed his family too. He cuts in line because he did not have to register at the beginning of the line and didn't have to pay the fee. How fair is that to the person who has stayed in the line, who has paid his fees, who has followed the law?

Yes, current immigration laws suck, they are unfair and the process is expensive and lengthy. Yes, immigration is not a cut and dry issue.

Yes, employers take advantage of illegal/undocumented workers and, as a result, wages for all lawful workers are depressed in some fields.

Yes, something will have to be done.

But please do not provide excuses for illegal entries in the U.S. or unauthorized employment or visa overstays and do not assume that illegal immigrants are more worthy of being in the U.S. than legal immigrants, simply because legal immigrants are (mostly) professionals or have close U.S. citizen relatives.

[EFerrari]

42. Some fair solution that works must be found

but it will not be found as long as even the smart, informed people on DU objectify, let alone demonize undocumented workers.

You process paper? Then you should know how fair that process is. Not to mention, our laws are written by the highest bidders.

Who benefits from the law as it now stands? You? Me? The undocumented worker employed by my neighbor? My neighbor? WALMART?

No one on this thread is advocating lawbreaking, that I can see. Nor are they idealizing the situation or character of undocumented workers.

My point was, let's please be smart about this issue. Careful, because this is a trap for our party and for our values.

[Maestro]

102. Okay I am trying to keep up with this thread

I can't respond to all, but I will try to respond to at least two things you said.

First, we are not debating the fact that illegal immigration is in fact illegal. It is and it is wrong, but I want to bring a reality to the situation that is that illegal or not, immigrants are not the drain on society that it seems to some. Post #62 is the start of some good links.

Secondly, you came here as a teenager and learned English well enough to go to and graduate college. First, way to go and congratulations. Many do not realize how difficult a language English is. Secondly, my area of expertise is second language learning. I could spend the next few hours discussing this topic but I will boil it down to the fact that as a teenager you already had an academic base from which you could transfer skills to English. Younger children need more time to do this because they absorb, like the proverbial sponges, conversational language, but not the academic portion which takes years to develop. We use the native language wherever possible to accelerate this process. Also, these kids come from rural areas where their primary education was poor to begin with. This makes learning English even more difficult. There are exceptions but this generally is the rule.

For more info check out: http://www.iteachilearn.com/cummins/

http://www.sdkrashen.com/main.php3

http://www.sk.com.br/sk-krash.html In English and Portuguese.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jwcrawford/Krashen3.htm

Also look at the home page for the above web site. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jwcrawford/home.htm

Then I have had some things published as well. Some are op-eds are more academic

More research: http://www.irvingisd.net/~spollard/research.htm

My articles: http://www.irvingisd.net/~spollard/articles.htm

[Tansy_Gold]

159. learning a second language

I heartily embrace the notion that EVERYONE should learn a second language. The process of learning, of discovering how language works, is IMHO the best way to BEGIN to understand the whole immigrant psyche.

Hubby and I were walking to the local Sears store a year or so ago. There were two young men in front of us, maybe in their late 20s. They were speaking Spanish, and hubby and I were talking, so I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to these guys. Then, in a break in the conversation I was having with hubby, one of the two young men said to his companion, "Okay, voy a ver a los tools."

I cracked up. I had to explain it to hubby. He didn't get it.

[Maestro]

168. Los tools

Was he referring to herramientas or the tools that are freepers? Not you, of course, the freepers lurking here.

[Tansy_Gold]

197. Herramientas

My problem is that I've forgotten just enough of my Spanish to not be able to catch everything that's said around me, but I remember enough to get caught kind of between gears. So the "Okay, voy a ver a los tools" didn't hit me immediately but had a kind of delayed action.

ROFLMAO on the graphic! I love it!


Tansy Gold, who hopes she is a tool (of the good kind!)

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[datasuspect]

91. the picture at the bottom

is pretty fucking offensive pal.

you know what, i'm a mexican-american, and we aren't all frito baditos . . .

where the fuck are you coming from?

[UTUSN]

116. You COMPLETELY Misread/Misunderstood My Post

Yes, the picture is (I'm leaving out the "effings") offensive. I even labeled it as coming "from the RACISTS"--meaning, "NOT FROM ME". I alerted on your post and asked it be deleted.

[Maestro]

157. Good Lord!

I'm speechless. That is disgusting, racist, ignorant, xenophobic, false, etc...I have no appropriate adjectives.

[UTUSN]

167. But It's Clear *I'm* Not Advocating "It", Right? Just Checking.

And HANSON would disavow what the ignoramuses have done with his word "Mexifornia", but he can't buck the tide: He is giving fuel to them, the same as how the proto-Nazis used NIETSCHE.

[Maestro]

169. No I didn't think that you were

advocating this garbage. People are on edge in this thread so don't get too upset if some misunderstand. Or did I? ;)

[UTUSN]

173. No, You Didn't. But I've Now Been Reported to ATA Forum.

I "Alerted" THAT post, too. I'm calling it a night and will check on my fate in the A.M.

[Maestro]

174. What?

:shrug: Sorry. I didn't see anything disgusting except the reality that some people would believe that.

[TygrBright]

53. The question is, who wins?

As someone pointed out earlier, TPTB want to increase anti-immigrant sentiment among Americans while protecting their sources of cheap labor. This agenda is best served by heating up the debate while ensuring that no decisive action is ever taken in ANY direction. By enflaming hatred and racism against illegal immigrants, they get the secondary benefits of hatred and racism against ALL brown people.

When hatred and racism against all brown people runs high, brown people (legal or illegal) have fewer choices, fewer opportunities, and fewer routes out of the slave-labor pool right here in America.

And when hatred and racism against all brown people runs high, there is less danger that brown people will make common cause with the low-wage, low-skill white people who are also dependent on the slave-labor pool for employment, to demand economic justice and basic human dignity in their employment.

TPTB win, everyone else loses.

If you are concerned about the "negative" consequences of illegal immigration, and you think that these consequences can be eliminated by simply "stopping" illegal immigration, TPTB just love you. You are their footsoldiers in keeping anything from ever being resolved.

There is NO simple solution to this issue. It is no more possible to achieve "zero" illegal immigration than it is to achieve "complete" sexual abstinence among teenagers.

People come to America in the hope of making a better life for themselves. The reality is that even the degradations of America's low-wage, no-benefit labor pool look good compared to what is available in their country of origin. And they know that SUCH JOBS ARE PLENTIFUL IN AMERICA! And since employers face little or no chance of being caught for employing undocumented workers, they have no incentive to change. When labor is cheap, there is no down side for the employers in treating laborers like paper cups.

These problems can't be "solved." The best we can do is reduce them, change where the impact falls, and stay flexible to respond effectively as conditions change. We can reduce the availability of "paper cup" jobs by empowering unions-- unions who represent all legal workers regardless of their background or immigration/citizenship status.

We can reduce dependence on illegal workers by putting real resources into the enforcement of worker documentation rules, especially in industries and among businesses dependent on low-skill workers.

We can increase the acceptance and compliance of immigrant communities with fair and compassionate immigration policies and laws by giving them a stake in the economic success of the whole community, and a voice in how those policies and laws are made and enforced. But giving them that stake requires counteracting racism and rejecting simplistic solutions and simplistic thinking.

It isn't cheap and it isn't easy. But until we muster the political will to address it without "magic bullet" thinking, TPTB remain the only ones who benefit. The cheap-labor capitalists win by pitting us against each other. The more we collaborate with them, the happier we make them.

exhortationally,
Bright

[Maestro]

160. I agree totally

Big and small companies that continue to employ undocumented workers are the root of the problem. Meanwhile all immigrants continue to make us a richer country.

[mcscajun]

55. Thank You!

Great post. It got my vote.

[ForrestGump]

58. Complex issue

Illegals should be repatriated when caught. They're here illegally. I've seen, up close, how the INS deals with admitted illegals -- it may surprise some to know that, in some branches of the organization, they let these people just walk. Not surprising, really, because places like California (and, ergo, the USA) need illegal workers to maintain the economy. It's all a sham...Border Patrol officers try their best to stop the flow, sometimes at significaqnt personal risk, and then their colleagues in the same service let illegals walk. Yet a person trying to enter the US from another country, legally, faces almost insurmountable odds in securing a work permit (unless, of course, they're rich, but that's a whole other story). The entire situation is messed up.

Before someone goes falsely accusing me of being a hater of brownpersons, let me say that not only would I cross the border if I were a poor Mexican in search of something better but that I have actually worked illegally. I wasn't an illegal entrant (though I just remembered that I once overstayed a visa in another country -- the stamp-happy bureaucrats in that particular tropical nation must have never caught the overstay because they let me back in the next time) but I did work without authorization. In fact, I kinda did it in two countries, though the second was more a technicality (straying outside the bounds of a granted visa, and I was not paid by anyone based in that country). I'd do it again, if it came down to it and I thought I could get away with it. And here I could go into the whole concept of borders and nationalism, but that's an even more complex set of issues.

So good luck to the illegal workers hereabouts. I don't support their presence, but I do wish them well in staying and improving their families' lives and I recognize the reality of the economy here in the southwest and, increasingly, nationwide. When it comes down to it, it's the corporate types and the government who're the illegals. Maybe one day we can sort it out right...in the meantime, it is what it is.

[Turn CO Blue]

66. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU

I too am disturbed and conflicted by some of the posts and indeed the whole issue itself. I appreciate your firsthand knowledge.

I assert that the food industry in this country will SHUT DOWN without the migrant workers...and I agree that many people are allowing xenophobic wingnuts like Pat Bucholic Buchanan (blech) to build the frame on these issues.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

68. slavery

People who equate all opposition to illegal immigration with dislike of immigrants probably think that abolitionists who opposed slavery just didn't like black people. In both cases it's the exploitation progressives object to, not the exploitees.

[jonnyblitz]

71. THANK YOU!!

:thumbsup:

[Horse with no Name]

97. Beautifully eloquent

This is such a hot topic for me--you said everything perfectly though.
I don't live that far from you and we have alot of illegals in this area--I have never seen the problems that some profess run rampant.

[solinvictus]

105. That's really sad..

but I'd still deport them. Sorry, I'm not convinced. I would also exact a fine on companies employing illegals that was equal to 10% of the net value of the company. That would curtail it, too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

130. Wow Maestro

Just wow.

You did just what I was hoping someone more eloquent than me would do.

My school - in KCMO - has grown from 30% to 80% Hispanic in less than 5 years. We love these kids. They have added so much to our school and to our community. Their parents and families are incredibly supportive. They are a gift. If all parents were as involved and supportive, we would have a lot fewer problems, especially with discipline.

Wanting the illegals to go back or stop coming is not the way to address this. They are here, and they are going to continue to come regardless of these idiot minutemen on the border.

My own ancestors came here over a century ago to make a better life for their families. Out of respect for them, and in gratitude for the great country I live in, I welcome all immigrants. It would be hypocritical for me to act differently.

[Maestro]

163. Exactly, whether you like it or not

they are coming, so let's make sure they are educated, find jobs and contribute to our country. Boy, if we alienate them, there will be even more problems because they are still going to be here. Thanks for the kind words.

[RagingInMiami]

138. I'm a Miami native who lives in one of those areas where they don't speak

English.

I've also lived in New Mexico, Arizona and California, states overrun by illegal immigration.

Oh yeah, my mother also is an immigrant. She is from Colombia and speaks English with an accent. She works more than 40 hours a week.

When I was in high school, she worked two or three jobs.

Meanwhile, I'm a Colombian-American who's assimilated. I'm bilingual (more than I can say for most people here).

And I'm a professional writer pursuing a master's degree. I still fly to Colombia to visit family.

This country was built by immigrants and it's still being built by immigrants. Their kids will assimilate just like your forefather did.

Just like I did.


Good post, Maestro!

[Maestro]

156. Thanks.

I need to find the link, but I have a report, possibly from Rand, that shows that Latinos, in fact, are the fastest to assimilate (hate that word) but many think it is untrue due to the fact that there are so many new Spanish speaking arrivals. It all goes back to perceptions. If people hear more Spanish, then obviously, they are illegal and not learning English. This, of course, is a faulty assumption, but one that is hard to break.

[Undercover Owl]

176. Look, people! this is a "moderate" issue.

People who have concerns over unchecked borders, and/or illegal immigration are NOT automatically racist jerks.

Go ahead and live in a border town, and you will understand why some people get irritated.

Flame me all you want!

[Maestro]

185. I've only called one person

a racist in this thread and she does have a problem with Latinos. Go back and read the thread. And I have much experience with border towns, Brownsville, Eagle Pass, Del Rio, all in Texas. I don't see a problem except the extreme poverty that exists there; especially Eagle Pass.

[Undercover Owl]

191. no, I know you didn't!

Thanks for being nice, though.

I lived in San Diego for 7 months, years ago. Absolutely the main problem is the poverty!
A side effect of poverty is the disrespect for surroundings/environment: as in, DON'T LITTER!
And, please don't throw dirty diapers across the neighborhood!

Sort of rich-meets-poor, but not exactly.
I was going to say: (somewhat-rich country meets somewhat poor country), but there is the rub: some people in the US are rich, some people in Mexico are rich. Some people in the US are poor, and lots of Mexicans are even poorer.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

190. Tell me, as a Border State resident, what irritates you?

I'm curious.

My family is from Harlingen, TX

[Undercover Owl]

198. here's what I said earlier:

"a side effect of poverty is the disrespect for surroundings/environment: as in, DON'T LITTER!
And, please don't throw dirty diapers across the neighborhood!"

I meant that statement wholeheartedly.

Did you notice I said this is "a side effect of poverty"?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

199. So are you arguing that more immigrants leads to more pollution?

Indirectly, because immigrants tend to be poor?

[Undercover Owl]

202. YES! ....and.... NO!

More People = More Pollution!!
Can we please fix this?!
Pollution is horrible for everyone.
Pollution is worsened by overpopulation! Can we maybe get the next pope to start endorsing birth control?!

Hispanics like to have large families, as a stereotype.
I'm not sure if they listen to the Pope's "word".
If Hispanics buy into the Pope's advice on birth control, though, their lifestyle is doomed.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

203. Ok, pollution needs to be curbed. But what does this have to do with

immigration?

[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

216. Uh...what? Birth control?

What does this have to do with illegal immigrants?

[Name removed]

218. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

222. Are you serious? Are you selling me the tired "they have huge families"

line?

[Undercover Owl]

223. Yes, I am.

what line are you going to sell to me?

"All people are wonderful?"

[SemiCharmedQuark]

224. That is a false statement. The only sites that have defended it are

right wing/anti-immigrant sites.

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

227. Right, because Hispanics are the only people who litter.

" I would appreciate if all the young hispanic teen moms would put diapers in the trash can instead of throwing them on the roadside."

First, I AM Latina, and my mom had ONE kid. My aunts had ONE kid each. That's less than the average. I know many many Hispanic families and the average number of children is 2-3.

Your statement is so racist, I could spit. "Young teen moms". What's that supposed to mean? Only Hispanics litter? Only Hispanics go and get themselves pregnant?

[Undercover Owl]

230. Whatever. I didn't say that.

I didn't say any of it.
All I said, was that I wish ALL diapers would be thrown in the trash, instead of on the roadside.

Whoever is throwing the dirty diapers, please stop.

[Maestro]

236. Sorry UO

Again, I work with immigrant, primarily Hispanic, families all the time. I would say that most of the families have two to three children. There are a few that have more, but in general, they have no more or less than other races. This is anecdotal evidence, but this is what I experience.

[ultraist]

208. Beautiful post Maestro!

It's absolutely absurd to blame undocumented workers for the shortage of jobs.

Ignoring the tax system, that overburdens the lower and middle classes, OUTSOURCING, a weak dollar, and the other factors that have created Bush's mess is simply stupid.

I suppose for some, it's easier to get caught up in hype and hysteria and let their racist venom spew, rather than look at the FACTS.

[Maestro]

234. Thank you.

This is one of those issues that really pushes my button. I appreciate the support.

[w4rma]

210. immigrants? Folks here don't have a problem with immigrants. Its *illegal*

immigrants that are the problem.

You are just beating up a straw man you've created when you say this issue is about "immigrants", rather than **illegal** immigrants.

[gardenista]

214. Thank you so much! You express so well the words that would not come

to me. I have been flabergasted by the hatred toward immigrants here lately.

[Maestro]

235. Your support is appreciated.

[The Traveler]

225. We have lost control of our borders

And in my public school, situated in a diverse but affluent neighborhood, the teachers barely speak English. This is a problem, people.

[Maestro]

233. And this is direct result of legal immigration?

Sounds like poor hiring policies of your school.

[Pushed To The Left]

232. Cheap labor conservatives

One major reason I have for wanting better border security is to hurt the cheap labor conservatives who profit by exploiting illegal immigrants and screwing legal workers. Everybody who is posting on this thread and on this topic has a common enemy: the cheap labor conservatives!! I don't think anybody here likes the right wing..I know I don't. Their phoniness on the illegal immigration issue has given progressives a golden opportunity to expose them!

Tightening up border security has absolutely nothing to do with racism or hatred. If it did, you wouldn't see so many of us at DU in favor of it. In fact, better border security would make things more fair for legal immigrants.

[Maestro]

237. I agree

Cheap labor conservatives are the enemy. This has been brought up in the conversation. What I oppose is the way that many seem to make legal and illegal immigrants scapegoats for many of the ills in today's society. This is not the case. These are people desperately looking for a better life as even the little girl in my post is aware. I'm with you though, let's expose the bigotry of the cheap labor conservatives.

[Donailin]

238. "These are people desperately looking for a better life"

So are many born and raised here. What needs to be adressed is why are they leaving their homeland to begin with? What policies of ours are keeping Mexico third world?