UPDATE: Florida litigation on voting issues, from Black Box Voting

[BevHarris]

There's a loophole that we'll need to get corrected in elections law, because it is blocking reasonable efforts to audit, confirm, or litigate elections in the U.S.

In most states, you can't request a recount or contest an election based on statistics. Even in Florida, where statistical evidence is permitted, the use of statistics is iffy in a court challenge. As soon as one expert sets it up, another can be counted upon to knock it down.

Recently, for example, attorney Lowell Finley came to Florida to pursue the option of contesting the Florida election. According to Florida law, contesting the Kerry election in Florida would require evidence that over 380,000 votes would be in doubt. Statistical evidence cited 260,000 votes in question -- but that study, the Berkeley study, is now being refuted by the Irvine study, and likelihood of prevailing in court on back-and-forth statistics is unlikely.

Even if that statistical information had been sufficient to prove 260,000 votes at risk, this would need to be supplemented by another 120,000 votes from other counties in the study. This kind of information could have been available, had counties complied with the Nov. 2 public records request filed by Black Box Voting. Unfortunately, most counties did not comply in a timely manner, and many refused to provide the information at all.

The audit data we obtained in Volusia County is another matter. Here, we have established plenty of evidence sufficient to take an election into contest. Volusia County, by itself, may have put some 30,000 presidential votes in question.

To get evidence comparable to what we have in Volusia County, basic audit diagnostics must be provided by the county in a timely manner. (To view the audit diagnostics we sent to every county in the country on Nov. 2, just after the polls closed, go to http://www.blackboxvoting.org and scroll down to an article titled "Are we insane? Voting without auditing?")

Now, here's the problem: All of the largest Florida counties stalled the records request past the filing deadlines. Some did it skillfully, by being out of the office, saying they didn't receive it, saying people were out of town...some did it clumsily, telling us to go jump in the lake.

The bottom line is: Most votes in Florida, and nearly all votes in Ohio, could not be audited because the secretary of state (Ohio) or the key county officials (Florida) would not part with the basic public information needed to launch a proper audit. While we will get the records, we will not get them in a timely manner.

This needs to be changed. Black Box Voting is in the process of setting up voting machine citizen audit protocols, and we plan to launch a major national citizen education effort to show people how to do both diagnostic audits and fraud audits using the public records tools available to all of us.

National elections cannot be compromised very easily without problematic local officials. A true cleanup is going to have to take place county by county, and we will need all of you to do it.

I know we have been slow to put some of our volunteers to work on real auditing. That is because, if you don't know exactly what you're doing, you'll get your butt kicked.

A citizen audit group is now working on Holmes County, Florida, and of course Volusia is in full swing (I'm about to do another post on the lawsuit filed yesterday requesting that the Volusia County election be set aside).

This is a problem that can be solved, but we need more teeth in legislation to require counties to produce audit materials immediately after elections, so that citizens groups can have at least 7 days to analyze the information and follow up on discrepancies and ommissions. Right now, elections officials can stonewall and there are no consequences, if they do it skillfully.

(For those who do it unskillfully, stay tuned. We aren't done with 'em.)

For those of you waiting on Ohio, it is certainly frustrating. Kenneth Blackwell is certainly the 2004 equivalent of Katherine Harris. He has set a state policy of obstructiveness, making it almost impossible to get the kind of information needed to prove the counting was correct.

Doing the auditing correctly, especially in coordination with local citizens groups, can produce fireworks. Volusia County now has its hands full.

Bev Harris

[Blue Gardener]

1. Thanks for the report Bev

And keeping this kicked!

[jamboi]

93. BEV PLEASE ADVISE US ON HOW TO HANDLE MADSEN REPORT.

Bev could you give us advice as to how to take the Madsen report. Should we give it skeptical credence or run the other direction. Your guidance would be invaluable. The main discussion is found at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Many Thanks!

JamBoi

[bear425]

2. Thanks so much, Bev! n/t

[freedom for all]

4. our party has forsaken us..again!!!!

No matter how things turn out Bev is a great American hero and patriot. My family & I want to thank you from the bottom of our heart.
We love you Bev...

[BevHarris]

5. Completely irresponsible. A $52 million litigation war chest

accumulated from citizen donations for that purpose.

If they were the slightest bit interested in either voting system integrity or actually winning, they would have litigated the BBV records requests to apply some real muscle into prompt disclosure of audit materials, at least in Ohio and Florida. Failure to comply with sunshine laws is against the law, yet a citizens group like Black Box Voting cannot claim legal urgency, forcing immediate compliance, in the same way that a campaign can. There is no question that if the campaign had enforced the sunshine laws, analyzing the audit data, two things would have happened:

1) records would have been produced
2) auditing would have been enabled, and we all know that would have produced hard evidence of irregularities.

The screen shots of the NETWORKED Volusia County GEMS server alone, along with the logs showing attempts to access it remotely, should have hit the national press. (I showed them to CNN cameramen yesterday, along with 59 orange-tagged poll tapes that were missing signatures, zero tapes, sometimes missing results altogether! No interest in getting a shot of that smoking gun at all.)

Oh yeh, and we intereviewed poll workers. On camera. Showed them the poll tapes we were given by Volusia County. To a person, they said, with great concern, "That is NOT what we submitted to the county." One remembered the results on his poll tape. What he remembered, before ever seeing the results tape or hearing what was on our copy, was not the same. His memory for a precinct with a tad over 400 voters had 60 more votes for Kerry. Of course, that's not legally binding, since he hadn't written it down.

You have to wonder. The purpose of our audits is to get some real answers, so we don't have to wonder any more.

Bev

[prof_science]

9. I can't imagine the frustration...

...that goes along with what you're trying to accomplish. Many many lesser individuals might have given up, but you never have. It's completely baffling how the democratic party has left us fighting for our democracy alone, baffling and infuriating. How dare they accept our money and then refuse to put it to use!

On the flip side, I never really felt confident when giving money to the DNC-- but, I KNOW that money I have given to BBV (among others) is being used competently and effectively. I feel proud to have contributed to your organization...

[Tommymac]

11. Thanks Bev.

We may not get the real result we voted for this time, but hopefully next go round things will have improved because of your efforts.

As a contributor to that 52 Million, I am steamed. Next time I will know better. The Dem's have really shot themselves in the foot this time...next election contributions may not be so easy to get.

[Carl Brennan]

15. I wan't to confirm this

The Democratic party did nothing (provide money) to help you??????

[BevHarris]

22. The Dems did nothing to help themselves, let me clarify

As a nonpartisan nonprofit 501c(3), we cannot get involved in campaigns, recounts and the like. However, by sending the records request to every county in the nation, and publishing the exact documents needed on the web site by midnight Nov. 2, this put ALL parties on notice what was needed in order to properly audit.

We made ourselves available for consultation on exactly what records to request and how to use them for auditing.

Other political parties have used information from our public records request to set up their own recounts and audits. Citizens groups have also done so on a local basis.

Therefore, the road map for the Kerry campaign was right there. Though we could not accept, and they certainly did not offer, assistence on securing our own request, they certainly should have filed an identical request themselves, litigated and muscled counties into compliance in Ohio and Florida, and it would have been easy for them to get teams of computer people to examine the logs and teams of auditors to match up the records. This all could have been done in a matter of three days...at most, 5 days, with the muscle they had.

Instead, they rebuffed our attempts to provide expertise, advice, or evidence, and they made no effort whatsoever to do any auditing at all, nor even to obtain the records needed for simple, quick, diagnostics.

More recently, we have had overtures, but I admit I've been pretty rude and completely without patience with them. Too late, and far too little emphasis on what really needs to be done.

The Kerry attorney in Volusia, by the way, came by but asked not a single question, never asked to look at any evidence, and told one of the producers of Votergate that he thought Black Box Voting was just here to "stir up trouble."

We were very open about the problems we anticipated with this -- the Election Protection effort, which was admirable, was focused solely on watching the casting of the vote, rather than the counting of the vote. When concerned people with access to decisionmakers tried to bring this huge ommission to the attention of people who could take corrective action, they said they were not interested and, in some cases, refused to even take the phone to talk with Black Box Voting.

After the election, everyone came to us asking what we can do. Many people expected Black Box Voting, an organization held together only by the grit of volunteers and the efforts of three full time investigators and a board of directors, with a shoestring budget, to overturn the national election. Not only was this the expectation unrealistic (though our nonpartisan charter would prohibit us from seeking a recount anyway), but the clock had already been run out.

We have consistently been ahead of the curve on this. We identified the problems with voting machine reliability and nontransparency way back in 2002; we have stressed since 2003 that the problems are not just touch screens, but with all computerized systems, including optical scans and punch cards, and we have focused on auditing as the solution since mid-2003.

While everyone else was focusing on getting a "paper trail" (without making any efforts to ensure that something meaningful was done to USE the paper to audit), we were focusing on auditing ommissions, both with the machines and with election procedures. While 40,000 people charged off to watch votes being cast, we published guidelines to create human audit logs for the central tabulator, the machine that COUNTS the votes.

In short, the time to set things up to contest this election on a national basis was a few weeks BEFORE the election. No one in a decisionmaking capacity bothered to do that, though we had been publicly calling for this, even going to Washington D.C. in September to meet with people and hold a press conference, in September.

Now, after the fact, people are realizing the mistakes.

1. Focusing on touch-screens and computer solutions, instead of focusing on basic auditing and bookkeeping

2. Focusing on touch screen machines instead of the central tabulator and the optical scans and punch card computers as well.

3. Failing to put any procedures in place to audit elections properly on a county by county basis

And now, failing to use the legal muscle of the party to enforce production of audit documents, and failure to do any auditing at all.

The result is that the American People are left with uncertainty on a nationwide basis.

Stay tuned for an upcoming national conference which will be put on by Black Box Voting, called "Help America Audit," in which we will teach citizens groups, political parties, candidates, and private citizens how to conduct citizen audits of elections on a county by county basis, the only method available to us, really -- and stay tuned, also, for an action we'll be taking soon to beef up compliance with the public records requests needed for election auditing.

Love ya,

Bev

[milkyway]

47. "Stir up trouble" is an interesting way of describing what you do.

The Kerry attorney is right--you're stirring up trouble for those who want faith-based vote counts.

It's hard to understand the Dems' position on this. Most voting machine manufacturers have strong ties to the republican party, and insist we just trust them in their vote counting. Why does the Democratic Party insist on keeping its head in the sand on this issue? Perhaps, as with many past issues, the Dems will only offer its support when the grassroots becomes powerful enough to force the party to get on board.

Thanks, Bev, and keep going after them. And despite appearances sometimes, most people here are realistic enough to know John Kerry will not be inaugurated in January (although there are some who want to place this burden on you).

[RevCheesehead]

50. Any chance you can get C-SPAN to cover your conference?

I, for one, would not only watch, but videotape it.

[Carl Brennan]

59. Pardon me while my blood boils over!!!

Instead, they rebuffed our attempts to provide expertise, advice, or evidence, and they made no effort whatsoever to do any auditing at all, nor even to obtain the records needed for simple, quick, diagnostics.

Holy mother of you know what!!

Is this not treason to the cause of democracy? WTF?? You are one of the few people in this world I would trust, so I am taking you at your word. You have done nothing but bust your ass to bring out the truth about voting problems and you are treated like THIS?

I am so sorry. For you and ALL of us.

Bev. I am going to be on this to the exclusion of all else. I need to calm down. ....Images of The Battle of Waterloo and Wellington's key ally decides to get snitty and not help out.

It sounds like these mindless asses known as the Democratic Party have a bad case of Bureaucratitis--everything viewed as a turf war. This is my first impression and I've found that to be pretty accurate lately. My next thought is all of these lawyers hired by the dems to do.....WHAT?...... Gobble up that $52 mill in bullshit lawyers fees?

Did threaten to upset their little applecart drawn by a $52 million dollar cash cow?


I want to study your post more closely and get some questions formulated. I've got to think about this. I'll p-mail you.




You absolutely rock.

Love you too,

[Carl Brennan]

66. I p-mailed you. nt

[Left Brain]

20. Disgusting. Frustrating. Sickening.

All of it. I'd cry, but what good would it do?

Bev Harris, bless you. Don't ever lose faith in this mission. Your courage in the face of slammed doors and blatant cover up is a daily inspiration.

[Carl Brennan]

67. I've got a question:

If they were the slightest bit interested in either voting system integrity or actually winning, they would have litigated the BBV records requests to apply some real muscle into prompt disclosure of audit materials, at least in Ohio and Florida. Failure to comply with sunshine laws is against the law, yet a citizens group like Black Box Voting cannot claim legal urgency, forcing immediate compliance, in the same way that a campaign can. There is no question that if the campaign had enforced the sunshine laws, analyzing the audit data, two things would have happened:

1) records would have been produced
2) auditing would have been enabled, and we all know that would have produced hard evidence of irregularities.

Why do you think they were not interested? Any ideas?

[demobabe]

99. Bev, do you realize what you've said?

You're criticizing and giving legal advice to two of our country's top LAWYERS with YEARS of legal experience?

If they have indeed given up, they've most likely made the decision to use the money to further the cause of the Democratic party rather than to flush it down the drain on battles they know they can't win. As the system stands now, we ALREADY know our votes can be corrupted, elections stolen - we saw it in 2000 and 2002 - there is no reason to believe 2004 would be any different. Going up against Republican stacked courts would not only be futile (as perhaps you're beginning to see with the Volusia suit) but could further damage the Democratic party. I'm not ready to jump to the conclusion they're being irresponsible with the legal war chest.

It would have been more helpful if you'd filed your lawsuit by the deadline (you had all your evidence on Friday preceding the Monday deadline) - or at least filed some complaint - any complaint - and then amended it later when you had the details.

But as I've said in other threads, the evidence you have is pretty weak overall legally - I thought your best hope was the poll tapes in which you found discrepancies between the results provided to you in the FOIA and the tapes you found in the trash. I was surprised you didn't show that evidence to CNN - but another article reported the differences wouldn't affect the outcome of the election and wouldn't be enough to get any real results in court.

The screenshot from the trash - I don't see how that could possibly be authenticated, and therefore would be considered hearsay and not admitted unless you witnessed the printing of the screenshot or could subpeona the person who made the screenshot to testify. And unless you have proof of
the GEMS server actually being contacted and connected to, that's not evidence of fraud - and even if the county official lied about the network status of that machine, it probably would not be considered material (once again, no proof of fraud or manipulation - even though we would think it should be).

The missing information isn't a smoking gun, either. It's just missing information. You can't legally jump to conclusions that because information is missing, that there is automatically a problem. Of course CNN isn't going to report on that - it's not a story! The news generally doesn't cover things like "there MAY BE vote fraud because not all public records are released." The story they're looking for is "There IS vote fraud because we can compare these specific pieces of evidence against each other and it shows clear corruption in the vote."

The courts in the South aren't particularly friendly towards outsiders, and most are Republican packed. This is why I believe Kerry/Edwards are not going for a recount. They may be doing something else behind the scenes; taking a different route - but as lawyers, they know how to pick their battles.

There are two problems that need to be addressed:
1) corruption of the courts
2) more reliable audit systems with the voting machines

As long as Republican judges head up the courts, we'll keep getting slaughtered in them, and unless there is a true way to recount votes (including the DREs), you're not going to necessarily get reliable information using the FOIA. But it's a chicken/egg thing here: the machines have to be reliable to elect new judges, and the judges have to be reliable to fix the current issues with the machines...

Doing the seminars at this point to teach people how to do your audits is mostly going to yield more of the same: very little. Big changes need to happen on a higher level - but given the current political climate, that's a tall order.

[BevHarris]

108. I fail to see how 'years of legal experience' would cause lawyers to

concede Ohio without even knowing whether there are 150,000 or 500,000 provisional ballots. A fairly high-up person reported to me that the decision was made to concede in Ohio based on an assurance by Ken Blackwell that there weren't more than 150k of provisionals -- and Ohio STILL has not provided source documents to account for how many provisionals were cast. The concession was made based on an assurance from a Republican partisan?

Good lawyers get the source documents. They do at least a cursory audit. No auditing whatsoever was done, and to this day we don't know who really won.

Now, as to when the case was filed -- Black Box Voting can't file the case. It was a citizen who filed it, and there is evidence that the certification date may have been the 13th, since that is the date the certification meeting was publicly noticed, and that is the date the certification was faxed to the secretary of state. That is also the date that party officials believe certification was done. If so, that makes the filing timely. Volusia's contention is that they shifted the publicly noticed meeting forward by a day, made a decision on the 12th, then faxed it to the secretary of state on the 13th, on the day of the publicly scheduled meeting. Whether that holds water is in question. At any rate, I did not control the filing of the lawsuit, but I think the lawyer has a good case to set aside the filing date even if it is deemed late.

At issue re: the garbage and the authentication -- fortunately, a video crew was inside when the garbage was taken out -- that's on video -- and then they went outside when it was pulled out of the trash. The authentication is actually easier than that, though, since the page is a screen shot that contains unique identifiers to the GEMS system and the machine it's running on.

Bev

[L84TEA]

3. Thanks Bev!!

Thanks for keeping us in the 'know'!!

**hugs** keep up the good work!

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. Bev

In Florida, have you contacted Barbara Peterson from the First Amendment Foundation? The Attorney General's Office is a second choice.

[freedom for all]

7. Why do our leaders not care?

Kerry should have been prepared for the election to be stolen considering how 2000 was stolen plus all the evidence provided by BBV before this election.. The machines with no paper trails and their connections were made clear.. All you have to do is open your eyes and see what might happen or will happen.. Kerry should have worked with Bev and others before the election to isolate and pin point potential problems that might arise. I don't think it would have been to hard to figure out where the problems might be.. Just ask Bev I'm sure they had a good idea..
Like maybe machines with no paper trail..Urban counties with high turnout in swing states like Florida & Ohio where the repubs have SOS's to commit fraud and then cover it up.. Someone could have wrote a book 2 years in advance on how it would be done.. Why did Kerry & our reps not have tons of lawyers in at least Florida & Ohio in certain counties ready to lock them down a few days after the election to make sure no fraud had occurred.. Seems like our leaders in our party enabled them to do it.. So sad that we don't have any real representation. But thanks to Bev, Andy, & a few other true hero's some of us know the truth and therefor will still have Hope for America..

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. This kind of corruption has been going on for so long.

It's going to take outsiders to stir up the pot. First one city, then another city, then the next.

[rainwoman]

80. precisely why i voted for ralph.

it's been too long since i trusted the democratic party. i watched now with bill moyers when they exposed the hypocrisy of their party, as the dems tried to be secretive about their corporate-sponsored parties. the republicans are open about it, but the dems try to pretend they don't take the same money as the republicans.

if they get hundreds of millions from corporations, and only millions from supporters, who has paid the most for their loyalty? i would have voted for dean or kucinich, but not kerry in a million years, no matter how scared i am of bush&co in power.

bev, thank you for everything! i wish i could donate to you and votergate. i'm appalled at the dnc for not coughing up dough and support, even if secretly to fly under the radar. if that is really their strategy, why are they not secretly helping fund the efforts of you and votergate and the third party guys busting your asses and begging for change for their jobs? i mean, you're all doing it for us, and yourselves, but when it's proven that the election was stolen, it just may shift power (darn well better shift power!)

you're a hero. so's ralph, cobb, badnarik, and quite a few others.

[The Backlash Cometh]

83. Major cognitive dissonance

Rainwoman is appropriate.

[MrUnderhill]

8. Well... You know what they say - "Lies. D@mn lies... and Statistics"

You can use statistics to prove just about anything.

The math is verifiable... but the assumptions are merely assumptions - and cannot be the basis for a lawsuit. Remember the statistics Olberman put out on the provisional and/or discarded votes in Ohio? The math worked out fine to mean a very close final result (Kerry could win, or he might lose narrowly... but it would be nothing close to 135,000). But the underlying assumptions were faulty - and so far we haven't picked up a single vote.

Stick with the path you're currently on in Florida. And don't worry about the deadlines. Solid proof at ANY time in the next several months will be valuable.

[DoYouEverWonder]

53. It's not the stats, it's a pattern of behavior

but with BushCo in control of every aspect of the government, military and media, we are just another David fighting the Goliath.

[juajen]

78. Yeah, but David got Goliath

Bev is our David. Working against impossible odds, I BELIEVE that Bev will eventually win the day, with some great help from her friends and concerned citizens.

[L84TEA]

10. KICK!

[Junkdrawer]

12. Have you see the Ukrainian hypocrisy?

Republican Challenges Presidential Election Based On Exit Polls
Tuesday, November 23, 2004 --from The New York Times

An international election observer mission - from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, the European Parliament, the NATO Parliamentary Assembly and the Council of Europe - released a preliminary report on Monday declaring that the election did not meet democratic standards.

The observers' findings were seconded by Republican Senator Richard G. Lugar of Indiana, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Citing the disturbing fact that official results diverged sharply from a range of surveys of voters at polling places, Lugar said, "A concerted and forceful program of election-day fraud and abuse was enacted with either the leadership or cooperation of governmental authorities."

Other prominent Western observers were unsparing in their criticism of the state's conduct of the election.

"Fundamental flaws in Ukraine's presidential election process subverted its legitimacy," the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, sponsored by the Democratic Party in the United States, declared in its preliminary report. The institute, cited "systematic intimidation, overt manipulation and blatant fraud" that were "designed to achieve a specific outcome irrespective of the will of the people."


http://www.legitgov.org/essay_palast_republican_challen...

[electropop]

17. Please post this at top level

It's too important to bury down here. I don't have the post-count yet to do it myself.

[Junkdrawer]

18. It was discussed yesterday, but with 2 more posts, you can start...

a thread yourself. I was concerned that Bev has been so busy that it might have slipped by her.

[BevHarris]

30. We saw this on CNN last night. It was surreal

They were saying that in the Ukraine elections aren't transparent.

'scuse me? This, after CNN said they weren't interested in filming 59 orange-tagged records showing that our elections have not been at all transparent, and are missing one-third of the key documents entirely.

Psst. Don't look here. Look there.

Bev

[Junkdrawer]

39. Phony elections seem to be the latest trend, huh?

Afghanistan -> US -> Ukraine -> Iraq???

Wonder if the world will also copy out "Preemptive Invasion" example?

Kinda like alcoholics "shocked" when their kids start using drugs and booze.

[electropop]

42. Write CNN and complain

Less Laci, more Bev please! I just wrote them. http://www.cnn.com/feedback/cnntv/

[intheflow]

36. Hi electropop.

Welcome to DU!

[electropop]

38. Why, that's mighty neighborly, intheflow!

I feel more optimistic and less alone since I found DU.

[intheflow]

40. I know at least three people in DC

who are right with you politically. Take heart-you are not alone!

[electropop]

44. At this moment I am sitting 2 blocks from the White House...

...at my desk. When the wind blows the wrong way I can smell * and it's nauseating. But 90% of this town voted for Kerry, so I should feel better.

[electropop]

45. deleted

[pbartch]

85. the HYPOCRACY OF United States telling another country that

their election wouldn't be accepted is unbelievable. How could our government tell another when OUR ELECTION WAS FRAUGHT WITH IRREGULARITIES AND FRAUD.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

96. This warrants serious consideration.

I would ask that All world leaders hold The United States election process to the same standards that are being applied to the Ukraine.

"Fundamental flaws in Ukraine's presidential election process subverted its legitimacy," the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, sponsored by the Democratic Party in the United States, declared in its preliminary report. The institute, cited "systematic intimidation, overt manipulation and blatant fraud" that were "designed to achieve a specific outcome irrespective of the will of the people."

http://www.legitgov.org/essay_palast_republican_challen...

All of the World leaders should make the same case about the legitimacy of the U.S. elections as the U.S. is making in regards to the Ukraine. Has our government become so hypocritical that they feel they should not be held to the same standard as the rest of the world?

I would like to call on all of the world leaders to challenge the election results in the United States for the exact same reasons that the United States is challenging the election results in the Ukraine. Especially Tony Blair. He Stands up with the U.S. people when they go to War, Now Stand up with the American People to ensure that our votes count, and for the good of the entire world as well.

Please challenge the Legitimacy of the United States election due to the wide spread allegations of voter fraud Just as the United States has challenged the legitimacy of the Ukraine election.

Americans need your help. if not us, then Help your self.

[CantGetFooledAgain]

13. Bev, thank you. And please help me to understand something...

"The bottom line is: Most votes in Florida, and nearly all votes in Ohio, could not be audited because the secretary of state (Ohio) or the key county officials (Florida) would not part with the basic public information needed to launch a proper audit. While we will get the records, we will not get them in a timely manner."

First of all, based on this, why can't we expect headlines like "Florida Election Officials Refuse To Make Records Public" in every major media starting today and going until the public records are made public.

Secondly, the more they stall, the more time they have to fake something up. How difficult do you think it is to produce counterfeit records that back up the "official" results? How good is our ability to detect fraud given the requested information?

Finally, I see you testifying before Congress in the not-too-distant future about these outrages.

You are our hero. Thanks for all your hard work.

[MrUnderhill]

14. Why? Because it's too easy to stonewall Bev...

..no offense to Bev intended.

What I mean is that it's too easy to look at some person walking up to the office claiming "Stand back! I am here to 'audit' your results" and laugh them off. She doesn't represent a government agency, or law enforcement and they can be forgiven for assuming that she has a "dog in the hunt"... a preconceived notion that something IS wrong with what they are doing.

So of course they're not going to be very helpful. If they were HONEST... they would be annoyed and have no inclination to help her... and it they're DISHONEST they obviously have something to hide.

It's unlikely that the law supports just any old individual demanding the means to validate an election personally while the wheels of that process (certification etc) are still in motion. Various acts (FOIA, sunshine rules, whatever) DO give us all the right to review some/all of this material (but later)... but Bev (understandably) wants it ALL in time to show the election was stolen. It just isn't going to be that fast.

What many don't realize is that it doesn't HAVE to be that fast. It could be just as useful in the long run to prove clear fraud four or five months from now.

[BevHarris]

25. Incorrect on most counts

1. Election officials only have to survive 10 days, or, in some places, 20 days. That's all they have to stall. After that, wrong results cannot result in candidates being removed from office unless there is evidence that the candidate himself was involved in the fraud. Of course, there will be insulation of the candidate, as this stuff is performed by operatives, not candidates.

2. Public records laws are already sufficient, in most cases, but need litigation and injunctions to back them up when public officials don't comply. Stay tuned for actions shortly that will help put an end to stonewalling.

3. We are a consumer protection group, not a political schmoozing group. We are getting support from many elections officials who are just as concerned as we are. Many officials are very accomodating and their audit diagnostics check out.

Remember, some of the records we requested were already public on election night -- such as the interim summary results reports and the poll tapes. There is no reason whatsoever to withhold these.

Your idea that proving fraud after it is too late to put the wrongs right is just not correct. It is a simple matter to put this right, but it involves getting the audit diagnostics in a timely manner -- and also, it is not just "Bev," but a nationally recognized nonprofit 501c(3) group. Now, if the head of the League of Women Voters came in and asked for records, are you saying it's just fine not to give them over until it's too late?

Note also, that the lawsuit filed yesterday targets the supervisor of elections position. Think carefully about the implications of this. Patricia Northey was a candidate who had pledged to clean things up, beginning with housecleaning a few employees who have been habitually obstructive. She was favored to win. The candidate who in fact became the new supervisor of elections was hand-picked by the current regime.

It isn't okay to wait until it's too late to put the right candidates in, the ones people actually voted for. That includes local as well as national races. And yes, it is now too late.

Bev

[ElementaryPenguin]

27. If fraud is proven - Bush can be removed from office - without impeachment

Just like any other elected official, if he assumes his office by way of fraud, the election is invalidated and the opposition (Kerry) is sworn into office. We just haven't been there before.

[intheflow]

33. Probably not.

We'd have to find some smoking gun (or memo, or informant) that was able to prove * knew the election would be fraudulent in his favor. Lots of other RNC operative could be brought down, but connecting it to the chimp will be hard to prove.

[ElementaryPenguin]

41. Being the beneficiary of the fraud would be enough.

Officials in overturned elections are not always proven to have been directing the fraud that got them into office. Someone unlawfully altered the results of the election - and the other guy got more votes. The guy that got the most legitimate votes assumes office.

[MrUnderhill]

55. In those elections there is always a higher authority that removes them

For President... we call that process "impeachment". There is no automatic removal for fraud or criminal action.

The Supreme Court could "try" to declare the election invalid. But it sets up a seperation of powers issue they probably wouldnt' touch (especially not the current court).

[electropop]

46. A sitting prez can be forced out.

Remember Tricky Dick Nixon? His election offenses look pretty innocent next to the current massive fraud. Yet he was forced out.

[intheflow]

49. Yes, but his party didn't control all exec. branches of gov'mt.

Still, we can hope that this will prove too aggregious an insult to deomcracy that even many of his supporters will feel compelled to give him the boot. We can always dream.

[geo]

91. a concerted effort to vote them out

would allow us to impeach, and solid evidence will help us do that. If this party is winning elections by maliciously tampering with democracy, we have our case.

Rove started four years ago. Let't see if we can be up to speed in two.

- G

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pbartch]

86. THE RePIGlicans will block her from testifying. I can't see them letting

This information to be brought before the American people. I'm not in any mood to celebrate Thanksgiving now. I just found this thread and I'm depressed.



You said: "Finally, I see you testifying before Congress in the not-too-distant future about these outrages."

[LuCifer]

16. this deserves a kick back to the top!!!!

Instead of "God Bless America" someone needs to write "GOD BLESS BEV HARRIS, A REAL AMERICAN PATRIOT!!!!!!!!"

Lu

[ailsagirl]

73. kick

[Karenca]

19. THANK YOU BEV. N/T

[laruemtt]

21. kick

[porkrind]

23. Thanks, Bev, for all your hard work!

We sure appreciate you and stand behind your efforts.

How is your organization doing on money? Do you have enough to do what you want to do?

It sure is sad that all of the funds in the Kerry war chest can't be applied to this purpose. Where is our Democratic leadership? Keep up the good fight, you are a heroine of democracy.

///DU'ers, let's nominate this for the front page.

---

Read about the Right-Wing "Master Plan": http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/sam/sam-contents.html

Have you read "War is a Racket"?: http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Read George Orwell's classic "1984" free online here: http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984

[wiggs]

24. Why isn't ACLU on this? They have huge resources. nt

[ailsagirl]

74. I thought of that...

of the ACLU and the NAACP. I emailed NAACP but no response.

ACLU?? Could only find regional offices-- no headquarters (unless I just didn't see it when I googled).

[pbartch]

87. BEV...........are you working with the ACLU?

Can you let us know WHO you know in the ACLU?

[grumpy old fart]

26. A Sane Voice.....

Bev knows what she's doing, and explains the practical problems very well. This election will not be overturned before the inauguration, but if the investigation continues full bore and fraud is proved later, the practical effect will be the same.

[understandinglife]

31. Central Vote Tabulation: Redux & Plea

Cross Post and quotes:

I repeat that request now, and hope that we can leverage what Susan Pynchon and her colleagues in Volusia FL, in collaboration with Bev Harris and her team, have launched.

Specifically, I urge all of you to mount an effort to identify the 'central tabulation centers' in each State. And, through whatever legal mechanisms are required, to request and obtain records of those persons having physical access to the systems as well as telecom logs of all data/voice communications connections to the hosting centers.

I make this request not in the spirit of "Kerry over Bush" but in the spirit of all the Diaries I have posted here in the past 21 days -- our franchise is broken; it is Our responsibility to fix it, now.

We have not had a valid election, because almost no one can answer the simple question -- "If you voted, do you know If and How your vote was recorded"?

So, in the spirit of "Prove My Vote Counts, Now" I urge all of you to bring items 18 and 19 of the Complaint to the attention of every State SoS, every State AG, every Congressperson , every reporter, every citizen you know personally.

We must repair our franchise, now, with the same focused intensity and zeal as those folk in the Ukraine are demonstrating to themselves and the world.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/24/115048/86

Peace. A special thanks, to Bev Harris, Susan Pynchon and all their heroic colleagues, will be in my mind as I join with family and friends on Thanksgiving Day.

"It's about America" -- currently on life support and in need of massive heroic and sustained treatment.

[BevHarris]

34. And don't forget a new attack point: the 'drop off' or 'depot'

In Volusia, poll workers were told to drop their memory cards and poll tapes off at depots, and it was there that the modeming occurred. We have no information whatsoever on who was in those depots, or what they were doing, or what equipment was there.

Bev

[understandinglife]

43. Simply, we have not had a valid election...

...and thanks to you and other dedicated citizens, we might actually make that fact stick.

I am trying to muster support. I have only my brain and my ability to type to offer; if I had any wealth, I'd be spending every cent of it on forcing a re-vote, using a properly structured, supervised and secure format.

Thank you for all you are doing.

[understandinglife]

48. Question -- Bev, do you think it would be helpful if...

...I posted the full plea to as a separate post to the DU "2004 Election Results and Discussion" thread?

I'll do it if you and others here think it helpful.

Thank you.

[Alizaryn]

65. Olbermann

Bev, have you tried contacting Keith Olbermann with a summary of the facts that you have uncovered? He may listen and choose to get involved.

[Senator]

77. We MUST change the FRAME

As much as I admire Bev's tireless and skillful efforts, I'm not convinced that the black boxes are a panacea. Their MO for this theft was very comprehensive, and well-informed by the treason of 2000. Simple recounts may not get us there.

Efforts must be made to examine non-swing states. That's where they boosted totals so that their parrots could start squawking "popular vote, awk, popular vote!" should any individual state's facade be torn down by reality and justice. Their national "preferred-ballot-status" count is pure fiction.

But more importantly, we MUST continue to change the FRAME of the issue.

The current frame is:

"Move along now. We've got our "ofishyl" vote count - you have to prove a crime was committed or you'll be ignored."

The NEW FRAME is:

"Your vote-counts are demonstrably false (not just uncertain), demostrably discriminatory (unlawful), both racially and in favor of bush voters.

"You must provide a transparent audit of your election procedures, failures, and data of all kinds OR WE INTEND TO DEMAND that your state's electors be DISALLOWED on Jan. 6th in Congress."

This new frame must be propogated amongst ourselves first. The short version is that "they have the burden of proof." And this goes for ALL states, not just swingers. As I said, they boosted totals everywhere to manufacture the pop-vote propaganda tool.

We must convince, first ourselves, then our supposed "leaders" and allies, of the Constitutional Right we have (equal protection - Bush v. Gore, heh) to demand this proof. And put our leaders on notice that they HAVE THE DUTY to support us in this. It is not optional.

Please watch My Diary at dailyKos as I will soon be posting a "Declaration of Intention" document that we will be attempting to get signed by ALL Members of Congress.

[donkeyotay]

28. Dear Demo Party: A deed in the days to come is as good as none.

Thanks for your hard work, Bev, but it seems the dem party has proven itself true to form.

This kind of information could have been available, had counties complied with the Nov. 2 public records request filed by Black Box Voting. Unfortunately, most counties did not comply in a timely manner, and many refused to provide the information at all...

Now, here's the problem: All of the largest Florida counties stalled the records request past the filing deadlines. Some did it skillfully, by being out of the office, saying they didn't receive it, saying people were out of town...some did it clumsily, telling us to go jump in the lake.

The bottom line is: Most votes in Florida, and nearly all votes in Ohio, could not be audited because the secretary of state (Ohio) or the key county officials (Florida) would not part with the basic public information needed to launch a proper audit. While we will get the records, we will not get them in a timely manner.

[Vidar]

29. Thanks Bev for everything

[jdog]

32. THANK YOU BEV!!!!! n/t

[intheflow]

35. Thanks Bev!

You are a true patriot!

[gorbal]

37. I here that the Democrats are doing a lot now though.

Ohio Democrats are suingand House Democrats are tryihng to contest the election. Don't lose hope in all of them...stuff is happening

[AmerDem]

51. Once again Thanks for keeping us informed and

for all your hard work!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. Thank you Bev, from the bottom of my heart!

Bless you!

[Rawls vs Nozick]

54. What Irvine Study

Where is info on the Irvine study Bev mentions here?

-RvN-

[SeattleRob]

56. Thanks Bev!!!

There are many of us out here who appreciate your hard work.

My only question is how do we get the Democratic Party Establishment to undergo a "spine transplant"?

[SharifromOregon]

57. First off, Thanks a million for what you are doing Bev...

I, like so many millions of absolutely disgusted folks, want to know whether or not there is any change of any of the work you are doing now could possibly change the outcome of this election. I keeping reading the "I Believe" post, started by "Doohickie" and find it lovely to read...but the more I read about the stonewalling and loopholes and MSM covering their butts, the less I believe that it will be possibly to move any major mountains.

That's not to say that this is really what all of this is about. It's about the democracy of our country. It's about getting back what we've lost, and having a plan in place for the future. But, it just really, really sucks to know that once again we're all in the doghouse. I cannot stand the thought of another 4-years of *. It makes my mind and heart sick to my stomach.

[SeattleRob]

58. Welcome to the DU!!!

Welcome aboard SharifromOregon!!!

[loudsue]

60. Bev, MANY THANKS to you and your whole team... you are awesome!

Many prayers for your continued success and safety in this battle.

I know how terribly frustrating, and discouraged, you all must feel at times. And yet you have persevered with unbending courage and determination. You are just an incredible human being, and I'm so grateful we have you leading this fight for our Democracy.

It is an OUTRAGE that our so-called "elected" officials are so FRIKKING INCOMPETENT or DECEPTIVE. In a just world, they should all be in jail, not running our government into the ground and mocking our Constitution.

I am OUTRAGED!!! The passive-aggressive nature of our elected officials needs to be addressed by massive demonstrations. We need to wake these people up, and it might have to get ugly. This country cannot take another bloodless coup as our government officials destroy our heritage, along with everything our country has stood for. One of the greatest outrages points directly at our justice system. The judge who made the programming of our voting machines "a proprietary business secret" needs to be the first one to go down.

I tried to tell people, way back during the primaries, that Kerry and Edwards WOULD NOT STAND UP FOR US!! All the pretty campaign rhetoric just seems all the more toxic now, for the lies and deception to get our money, our votes, and our loyalty. During the campaign, even I came to believe in them.....so cleverly did they spin their lies.

All my campaign donations were FRAUDULENTLY obtained...they embezzeled money from us, based on "promises" that were lies. Those DUers who keep saying "oh, Kerry's ON this...he's working stealthily behind the scenes". Well, it looks to be more true than these posters realize. He seems to be working "stealthily" to DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to save our Democracy!!!

"HELP IS ON THE WAY" indeed!

[GetTheRightVote]

62. We can not trust them with our future unless we want no future

----- never again will I trust this government not to throw my vote away, never again will I trust these elected puppets to protect my vote, never again will I not march on lost rights, such as my vote.

I am going to march all over downtown Wash, D.C. this weekend and go on and on about the stolen election, even if I am alone it will make me feel so much better about everything .... I can't wait to see the looks on people's faces when I walk by with my sign. I am strong, I am an American, I have rights no matter what they say, I will be free, even if it is just me, I will march.

[JaneEyrez]

70. Would it be possible...

for those of us who worked hard on the campaign and gave money to sue Kerry and the DNC for fraud? Especially since Kerry conceded before the votes were counted and the DNC has amassed a considerable sum of money intended to fund recounts and litigation. Isn't some investigation into where that money went in order?

[rainwoman]

81. what a great idea/question!

i think you should ask a consumer advocate attorney. we have some great ones who would take such a case if there is one here in portland, oregon. if so, i wish i could get in on it. but i didn't ever trust them enough to give money.

[pbartch]

88. I'm in Portland, OR isn't there some Atty named HENRY

Henry someone??? I can't remember what his specialty is though

[BevHarris]

105. Andy and I were talking about that. Appealing, isn't it?

And I think Black Box Voting can actually talk about this, because it is about election procedures, not candidate politics, so our nonprofit status is okay.

As an election policy, should it be allowed to solicit money under false pretenses?

I have received a report which I'm trying to run down now, that some of the attorneys were told to shred their incident reports. Another report, pretty credible, from a lawyer who said litigation-qualifying incident reports were rebuffed, and this attorney was told by Kerry people (she says), that if she sends any more evidence like that, they'll block her email.

Now, question: Why would the DEMS not want to see Volusia County split wide open? Anecdotal reports from those in the field said in the dem areas like those where the poll tapes are now missing, the Kerry vote was running 6:1, but none of the poll tapes show that. African-American areas -- which were running 9:1 for Kerry in some of the other counties, in Volusia they were only 3:1, at least if you believe the unsigned poll tapes, or the "official" numbers that lack poll tape results altogether.

It isn't just presidential politics. Congressional races were involved too, as is the queen bee position, the supervisor of elections position -- and under the current supervisor of election, minus 16,022 votes showed up for Al Gore in 2000, causing the networks to mis-call the election. That was traced to a memory card replacement, "possibly unauthorised" according to Diebold programmer Talbot Iredale.

So why would any Dem want to shut us up on Volusia County?

Of course, expanding what we are finding into other counties makes this a bigger story, but why not take that toe-hold and use it to pry the door open further?

Gives me a creepy feeling.

Bev

[NJ_Lib]

63. OH. MY. GOD.

I'm effing speechless... It feels like I just got kicked in the gut... HARD...

I can barly breath and hot tears are filling my eyes...

How could they?

How could John Kerry do this to us?

I trusted him... I respected him... We busted our ass for him... I gave him money I didn't have, from my unemployment check...

I think I'm in shock right now... So they were doing NOTHING after all, huh?... Then they hear that many people are upset and will not support Kerry in 08 if he doesn't do something, so he sends ONE guy who doesn't even ask a single question, let alone examine the information you have so tirelessly gathered? And then to add insult to injury he describes your efforts as: "Stirring up trouble"?

This is worse than the stolen election... I expected that out of the Republicans, but this? This really hurts...

I just don't know what to say... I'm at a loss for words right now...

Bev, thank you from the bottom of our hearts... Our family will never forget what you've done... You're a beautiful person and we love you...

[tavalon]

90. On Nov 3rd

I called my boyfriend, sobbing, and repeated over and over again, he f*cked us, he f*cked us, the bast*rd f*cked us! That's about how I feel all over again.

Reporting for duty, my ass!

[understandinglife]

64. Kick (n/t)

[AlexHamilton]

68. Bev We Love You

Thanks for your tough nosed attitude in protecting the rest of us from the thugs trying to hijack this country. My family has and will continue to donate to your cause. Keep it up!

Alex Hamilton
Impeachment by the People
Read my latest article: The Media is Finally Outraged

[distantearlywarning]

69. Kick! n/t

[althecat]

71. kick

[goclark]

72. Keep us posted Bev! Happy Thanksgiving

[JDStutts]

75. Kick

[pauldp]

76. Thank You Bev!!

You are a true patriot.

Man am I f*cking pissed!

The Repugs, the Media, and now the Dems.

Somebody wake me up!

[Senator]

79. We MUST change the FRAME (unburied)

As much as I admire Bev's tireless and skillful efforts, I'm not convinced that the black boxes are a panacea. Their MO for this theft was very comprehensive, and well-informed by the treason of 2000. Simple recounts may not get us there.

Efforts must be made to examine non-swing states. That's where they boosted totals so that their parrots could start squawking "popular vote, awk, popular vote!" should any individual state's facade be torn down by reality and justice. Their national "preferred-ballot-status" count is pure fiction.

But more importantly, we MUST continue to change the FRAME of the issue.

The current frame is:

"Move along now. We've got our "ofishyl" vote count - you have to prove a crime was committed or you'll be ignored."

The NEW FRAME is:

"Your vote-counts are demonstrably false (not just uncertain), demostrably discriminatory (unlawful), both racially and in favor of bush voters.

"You must provide a transparent audit of your election procedures, failures, and data of all kinds OR WE INTEND TO DEMAND that your state's electors be DISALLOWED on Jan. 6th in Congress."

This new frame must be propogated amongst ourselves first. The short version is that "they have the burden of proof." And this goes for ALL states, not just swingers. As I said, they boosted totals everywhere to manufacture the pop-vote propaganda tool.

We must convince, first ourselves, then our supposed "leaders" and allies, of the Constitutional Right we have (equal protection - Bush v. Gore, heh) to demand this proof. And put our leaders on notice that they HAVE THE DUTY to support us in this. It is not optional.

Please watch My Diary at dailyKos as I will soon be posting a "Declaration of Intention" document that we will be attempting to get signed by ALL Members of Congress.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

82. You've made excellent points Senator, and

Thank you! I hope that you also post this at the 2004 Elections Forum. There are many of us there that are attempting to take very real action.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I also believe that fraud happened all across the board, and I believe that is why Nader singled out New Hampshire to try to prove that.

BTW.. The Daily Kos is an awesome site!

[F.Gordon]

84. I thought you were "non-partisan"

The Kerry attorney in Volusia, by the way, came by but asked not a single question, never asked to look at any evidence, and told one of the producers of Votergate that he thought Black Box Voting was just here to "stir up trouble."

Your attack on the Democratic Party in this thread really troubles me. Diverting the blame to the Democrats and allowing the replies in this thread regarding "fraud" on the part of Democrats to go on borders on.... well, I won't say.

I have finally obtained all the missing pieces I was looking for in the Volusia County "story". I had a couple of my own facts wrong, but they are now corrected. Don't worry, I won't post my complete debunk of your "story" here at DU. I will, however, provide it to certain people in the Democratic Party.

Keep up the good work......(Zogby post-election exit poll)

Do you feel your vote was counted accurately?
National Numbers / Those that answered YES

Democrat 56.6%
Republican 94.4%
Independent 72.1%

Those that Voted for Bush: 95.2%
Those that Voted for Kerry: 53.3%
Those that Voted for Nader: 39.0%

Progressive: 49.3%
Liberal: 55.1%
Moderate: 69.0%
Conservative: 94.8%
Very Conservative: 94.2%
Libertarian: 82.3%

Male: 80.6%
Female: 69.2%

Oh, and are you SURE you aren't "non-partisan"????

[markusd]

89. Now THAT is extremely sleazy!

You wrote:

"Don't worry, I won't post my complete debunk of your "story" here at DU. I will, however, provide it to certain people in the Democratic Party."

Nice! You convey the impression that you have factual data that "debunks" what Bev Harris saying about Volusia, but you won't let us know what it is. What complete bullshit.

If you have something to say about Volusia, then say it and back it up. If you don't, then shut the f--- up.

But don't worry, I won't post my complete proof that you are a child molester here at DU. I will, however, provide it to certain people in the police department.

That last line was sarcasm in case you are too stupid to figure it out, which I suspect you are.

[rhite5]

94. F. Gordon, your posts make no sense.

I have watched you sound supportive and also threatening to the same person in the same post more than once. Do you fancy yourself as some sort of "special investigator" playing "good cop-bad cop?"

You are going on "ignore."

[F.Gordon]

97. I'm no "special investigator".

That's the whole point. Has anyone wondered why CNN didn't air the information that was presented to them? Has anyone wondered why the Kerry attorney didn't take the information seriously?

If they have 1/2 the information I have then I completely understand. I've been able to sort through the vague drama of all these stories fairly easily. A few phone calls. A few faxes. A few emails. It's not anything anyone here couldn't have done on their own if they were not just willing to blindly march in the Crusades in pursuit of the Holy Grail.

Should we all just accept everything stated as fact? I thought "liberals" were the "thinkers". I've never been one to hang with the "Blind Faith" groups. This is best left to the repukes.

I've tried to be reasonable in pointing out the errors because it has never been my intention to attack the messenger. I'm attacking the message, and this new diversion of placing the blame on the Democrats and Kerry really bothers me. I guess I'm the only one who is troubled by this. Or, maybe they are just intimidated by the Crusaders that march on devouring anyone who questions their pursuit.

I believe in my sig line. I'm tired of Democrats bitching and moaning placing their hope on "heros". There are no "heros". Each and everyone of us has a voice....a mind....and by collectively DOING SOMETHING we can make a real difference. Ahhh....fuck it. You didn't read this anyway because I'm on ignore.

Edit? Too much turkey...tired....can't type worth shit.

[BevHarris]

106. Not a special investigator. Perhaps a poser?

I've been able to sort through the vague drama of all these stories fairly easily. A few phone calls. A few faxes. A few emails.

I wish it was that easy to sort through and find out what really happened. Phone calls, emails, faxes won't tell the story. A hand examination of the ballots just might, though, and that's what we need to pursue next in Volusia.

Don't believe what you are told. (Deanie Lowe has said some downright ridiculous things to explain herself on this.) Instead, believe the source documents. Since the signed poll tapes were not provided, even after SIX visits, we should not assume that they will be authentic if they are provided at this late date. Instead, we need to move to the original source documents, the ballots.

My favorite Deanie Lowe explanation:

Bev: "Deanie, why did you tell us that you couldn't let us have copies of the real poll tapes because it is against the law to let us see poll workers signatures? They are acting in a public capacity at that time, aren't they?" (She had claimed this was for privacy reasons)

Deanie: "It is against the law for me to give out the signatures and phone numbers of registered voters, and poll workers are registered voters, so I felt it was against the law."

(Her lawyer put his face in his hands. He also advised her that this was not the law. At that point, she offered to provide copies of the signed poll tapes, but then provided a set with fully one-third missing)

Bev

[F.Gordon]

109. Now I'm a poser?

Have you spoken to any of the local Democrats who are not advocates? Did you get any other feedback from the Kerry attorney other than you're "stirring up trouble"? If you are not even aware of the opposition views but all the while reaching definitive conclusions about their intentions then.... welcome to the poser club.


Have you ever considered why there is a lack of interest? Could they have a better understanding of the County numbers? A perspective that allows both sides to have a fairly good grasp based on "voter prediction" models? Probably not.

You already have had a hand examination of the ballots presented to you as an option. You don't need to pursue it. Just ask. Although it seems you may be changing the criteria. I have no idea where you are coming up with the 30,0000 vote discrepancy. I'd love to have you tell me how you came up with this, but I understand how a poser like me wouldn't look at it objectively. If I was cynical, and I'm not , then I would think you are intentionally trying to avoid a hand recount for one reason or another. If you have solid proof of this 30,000 vote difference then you have a number of legal vehicles available to you. Just ask your attorney.

You and I both know why there were polling place tapes with no signatures. The data wasn't uploaded via the modem. I can't speak to every precinct you may have, because you won't list them, but in the primary precinct you are focusing on the mistake was nothing more than a human error, not a "black box" error. And the mistake was discovered and corrected well before you rode into Volusia County. This is why you found them in the trash.

The screen shot printout you say you have proving extra networking? Is this screen shot showing a "test check" request? If so, I can then explain the networking difference to you.

I don't know what context your discussion with Deanie and her attorney was based on. There is an exemption in the Florida Sunshine law that prevents releasing personal information. Did you request phone numbers? If so, then there may be a valid legal argument here.

You opened yourself up with me when you incorrectly stated the 215 demographics. From there I forwarded your story to a few people that I respect as having a much better understanding of Florida than I do. They all gave me varying opinions but the consensus was that the story didn't pass the basic of credibility tests. So, I decided to pursue it further, being the poser that I am, and yes...I DID find it very easy to sift through the noise and sort out a number of facts.

I promise I won't rain on any of your other parades. There are probably a number of DUers that already think I "I'm out to get you", that I'm on a witch hunt. This particular thread got my blood boiling when you attacked the Democrats and Kerry...blaming them for you not being able to your job. I've only sent my detailed "poser" report to 14 Democrats in 8 different states and I've linked it privately for them to use. I'm not looking to write a book, do a movie, or attack you personally. Just giving a few people a little fact checking ammo when dealing with the various "voter fraud" stories.

BTW: I'm dealing with a tad bit of pain right now and I'm a little foggy from the pain meds so if this post seems even more incoherent than my usual posts...well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it...

[jamboi]

92. BEV PLEASE GUIDE US ON MADSEN REPORT.

Bev could you give us advice as to how to take the Madsen report. Should we give it skeptical credence or run the other direction. Your guidance would be invaluable. The main discussion is found at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Many Thanks!

JamBoi

[jamboi]

98. Ed Schuster radio show has been trying to get BBV to respond

and says on the air that he's not getting any calls back from BBV. He's a progressive radio show host from the heartland, definitely worth talking to. His web site is http://www.wegoted.com

Thanks!

JamBoi

[lawladyprof]

100. Challenge it head-on. Statistics are sufficient to prove adverse impact

employment discrimination. Borrow from that area of the law regarding the principle (if it is good enough for employment discrimination litigation, it is good enough for disenfranchisement) and standards.

[pat_k]

101. Writ of Mandamus?

I’m not a lawyer so I may be way off base, but it seems to me that there are many ways to approach this. For example, what about application for a Writ of Mandamus?

From http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m079.htm (emphasis mine):

This writ was introduced to prevent disorders from a failure of justice; therefore it ought to be used upon all occasions where the law has established no specific remedy, and where in justice and good government there ought to be one. Mandamus will not lie where the law has given another specific remedy.

Here’s my shot at arguments that might be used to seek a writ that shifts the burden of proof to the state:

Part I: Gap in the current law and remedy required

(1) The law governing the contest of an election in the State of X fails to provide a remedy if the party contesting the election successfully establishes a reasonable doubt that the result is correct, but fails to prove that the results are incorrect.

Under current law, the party contesting the official results is called upon to prove the results to be incorrect. There is a presumption that the results are correct and the burden of proof is on the party contesting the results.

(2) Justice and the preservation of our government demand that we have confidence in our elections. If a party contesting an election establishes doubt that the results of an election are correct, steps must be taken to eliminate the doubt.

The power and legitimacy our government and its elected officials must rest on “the solid basis of THE CONSENT OF THE PEOPLE.” (Federalist 22) The aim of our election law is to ensure that our representatives obtain our consent in open, fair, and lawful elections that accurately measure our will.

If there is reasonable doubt that the results of an election correctly reflects the will of the people, that election must NOT be upheld as a measure of the peoples' consent. If there is doubt about the results of an election, it is likely that there will be corrosive doubt about the legitimacy of authority conferred by it if it is upheld despite the doubts.

(3) In the event that reasonable doubts about an election are established, the burden must be on the state to comply with the actions deemed necessary to eliminate the doubt. Assuming the election is administered professionally and election processes are sufficiently transparent, it should be fairly easy to eliminate doubts.

Elections are imperfect measures of the people’s will. Human or machine error can be introduced by imperfect systems for recording or tabulating the votes. Voters may not be afforded an equal opportunity to exercise their right to vote due to failures in administration.

Legal proceedings that are intended to resolve a contest or remedy problems can result in error. There are four possible outcomes to any legal proceeding that demands evaluation of election results for the purpose of upholding or striking down those results:

Correct Decision: Strike down results that are incorrect.

Correct Decision: Uphold results that are correct.

Type 1 Error: Strike down results that are correct.

Type II Error: Uphold results that are incorrect.

To be in accord with our founding principle, the law must minimize Type II Errors (that is, the governing laws need to minimize the chances of upholding an incorrect result.) To achieve this, a "presumption of incorrect results" is required and the burden is therefore shifted to the state to prove the results to be correct.

Part II: There is reasonable doubt that the election results reported by the State of X reflect the will of the voters.

(1) The voting systems and practices employed by election officials in the conduct of this election are so clearly flawed that the results are wide open to corruption by systematic vote suppression, data manipulation, human and machine error, and consequently, willful fraud. The only certain result is that we can have NO confidence in how accurately they gauge the will of the electorate.

Evaluation of the nature of the problems discovered to date makes it clear that these problems have implications that reach far beyond this or that specific instance. We are learning that the software used to record and tabulate votes is seriously flawed, lacks basic internal audits and security protections, and produces results that are prone to undetectable corruption through error or deliberate tampering.

In addition to the nature of the problems associated with recording and tabulating the vote, there is evidence that voters were not afforded an equal opportunity to exercise their right to vote. Those in African American and poorer communities faced poll-tax lines (time is money) and other intolerable and discriminatory barriers to qualifying to vote, casting their vote, and having their votes counted.

(2) Given (1) any presumption of accurate results is invalid. The addition or subtraction of votes from an untrustworthy initial total is not a valid method to remove doubt that the results are an accurate reflection of the will of the electorate. With the reported results in doubt, discovery of isolated problems can do nothing but add to that doubt.

(3) The systems and processes implemented by the election officials in State X make it impossible to remove the doubt about the results with a standard recount as specified under current statute. Only a comprehensive audit has the potential to remove the doubt

Part III: Application for Writ of Mandamus

Having established doubt that the election results correctly reflect the will of the voters in the State of X, and

Having established that the current law fails to provide remedy in this circumstance,

Justice and good government demand that the State of X undertake and comply with any actions required to remove the doubt.

Given the nature of the problems, only a comprehensive audit has the potential to remove the doubt.

We seek this writ to call upon the State of X to subject its election to a comprehensive audit. The aim of the audit we seek is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt whether or not the systems used to record and tabulate votes, the allocation of resources, and the administrative processes employed in the conduct of this election resulted in 1) violations that render the election unlawful (discrimination, fraudulent votes); 2) correctable machine or human errors; 3) vulnerabilities that make undetectable tampering or corruption possible…. <<<some specification of acceptable investigating authority, timeframe for compliance, and scope, etc.>>>

If the state fails to provide the access and records required to conduct the required audit, or if the independent audit fails to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt that the results accurately reflect the will of the voters, then …. <<<some specification of further remedy to address the possible outcomes. For example, if it is proven that the processes made the election vulnerable to undetectable tampering or corruption, the results must be thrown out entirely. The only remedy in that case would be to hold a new election that eliminated the vulnerability.>>>>

----------------
Next Task

If this exercise has yielded something of value – i.e., to get some real legal minds thinking about feasibility, problems, etc -- the next task would be to draft an application for a writ that strikes down the results of the election if the election failed to ensure that all voters, regardless of gender, age, race, socio-economic state, partisan status. absentee status, military status… were afforded an equal opportunity to exercise their right to vote, which includes equal opportunity to qualify/register, cast their vote, and have the vote counted.

The gap in the law:
No remedy if discrimination is found, but the voters subjected to the discrimination cannot prove that the election result would be different if there had been no discrimination.

That is, the notion that when the results declare a winner by a large margin, discrimination and other problems are "outside the zone of litigation."

If you accept the notion that a large margin of victory puts the election "outside the zone of litigation," then you accept the notion that such a state is completely free to discriminate with no risk of consequence. This is an absurd position.

Writ to demand the election be struck down as unlawfully conducted and contrary to American values. It is then on the State of X to figure out what it needs to do to conduct a fair and open election.

No matter what the margin of victory, the results of a discriminatory election are unacceptable. We cannot continue to tolerate the intolerable. We cannot continue to tolerate the toleration of the intolerable.

[ignatzmouse]

102. Call an International Press Conference

Who needs CNN? Call a full-scale press conference. Invite the international press. Invite the local press. Present the evidence. Even if American MSM is reluctant, the international press would be very interested and could be a catalyst to get it covered here. Even if it's picked up in the Florida media, it would inform the citizens of the state and move some to action. Throw it back to the '60's when media coverage of the civil rights struggle exerted pressure for change.

[senegal1]

103. kick kick kick n/t

[goclark]

104. Yes,we must gind international friends

to get our message out.

This is especially important because of the Ukraine issue.

The MSM does not see the irony in Bush speaking about FRAUD in another country, The international press needs to hear this from Rev. Jackson/ACLU etc./brave Congresspeople like Conyers etc.

[molly]

107. I saw you on Aaron Brown and was very proud

even tho it was very short. We need to get you on Washington Journal - have you tried? I know callers have mentioned voting fraud, but now would be really good timing.

[DTinAZ]

110. kick

...read the "Now I'm a poser?" response...