You may be a racist if

1. You think immigrants to this country are taking jobs that belong to Americans.

2. You think that people of color should go back to where they came from.

3. You think the opposition party is registering illegals to vote.

4. You think minorities shouldn’t move into your neighborhood because they bring crime with them.

5. You think that foreigner’s children shouldn’t be allowed to attend public schools.

6. You think English should be the only language spoken.

7. You think immigrants from Latin America are the people
littering public places like parks and beaches with dirty diapers. (Bizarre but someone actually said this to me.)

8. You think they should have equal but separate rights, but you draw the line at marriage.

9. Or, you believe interracial marriage is fine as long as they don’t plan on having children.

10. Your race is the most intelligent and therefore should lead.

Those are my ten. Put yours up. Please don't flame. The purpose of this post is to educate about those little hidden prejudices and bigotry that we all carry with us and are often not even aware of.

nt

.... hippa to the hoppa and ya just don't stoppa..



(I love rap)

Heyo

I'm black and I hate rap, does that make me a racist?

Mostly because I don't speak Italian. That doesn't mean I go around saying Opera isn't really music.

Ever heard of a guy named Wagner? How about Berlioz? Mozart?

Before you decide to "not care" about something, maybe you should actually become a bit educated about it.

I don't speak German either.

My point remains valid.

Since it's "mostly" because you don't speak Italian, and apparently not speaking German is a lesser, separate reason, I'm wondering when you're actually going to arrive at a valid reason not to enjoy Opera.

In one of your threads below, you went on how racists don't like hearing other people speaking other languages around them, yet you "don't care" for a genre of music because it's people speaking other languages. Interesting....

And then you find out all those pretty songs are about as interesting as The Days of Our Lives. And it's too long. And I simply find it distasteful. I could pretend I like it even though I don't understand it, because I think it makes me looks intellectual, like so many pseudointellectuals do. But that's just phony.

So my reasons for not liking Opera are just as valid as people's reasons for not liking rap. Nevertheless, I don't go around saying that it's not really music, that it's "beneath my standards of what qualifies as music." That they're a bunch of hypersexed thugs for singing about sex and murder. But that would be intellectually dishonest. I just don't care for it.

So I'll stick by my original comment that people who think that rap isn't really music are probably racists.

Seems I've hit the nail a little too close to the head.

What I primarily took issue with was that you said somewhere down this thread that people who don't want others speaking foreign languages around them are racists, but then said you don't care for Opera largely because it's not in English (though there's nothing saying Opera can't be in English--other than good taste ).

My other issue is that, while you're not writing off Opera as not being music, you are painting the entire genre with one brush colored by whatever bits of Opera you've heard. You can say most Opera sucks (like I do with rap below), but don't write off the whole genre.

Like I said earlier, I do agree with you that anyone who simply writes off rap as not being music is probably a racist. I'll still reserve the right to call most rap crap, since it's not a matter of race, but just the recognition that corporations have so commercialized the genre as to flood its ranks with simply vile junk (like they did to metal with the hair bands of the '80s). I don't like Petey Pablo, for instance, not because he raps, but because he raps about planting a girl's face in the pillow so she can scream, with choruses of "how you like it, daddy"--I, frankly, think that's a better reason to not like something than just a language barrier or length. I'm not saying I don't care for the entire genre, just the vile crap that gets produced and played on the radio these days (there is quite a bit of talent on display, but it's largely overwhelmed by the "Tipsy's" of the radio).

(I'll also agree that translations of songs can be pretty demystifying: Rammstein just isn't as threatening when you actually know what they're saying half the time.)

What's distasteful about Opera? I'm not insulted or anything, just perplexed (unless your referring to the Nazis' fondness for Wagner, but that's just something with Wagner).

On a side note: I would strongly recommend you listen to Wagner's Lohengrin. It's one of his earliest and is pretty straight-forward, as Wagner goes. Sure, you won't know what's being said line by line unless you're simultaneously reading a translation, but the story's simple enough to not require an understanding of German. A good, short Opera is "Pagliacci" by Leoncavallo. It's only an hour long and very straight-forward (you may have heard part of it in that car commercial where the guys jump out of the car and pelt the other guy with water balloons). It's about a clown ("Pagliacci" means "clowns"), whose wife cheats on him with another member of the troupe, so he kills her (of course, singing all the while). Seinfeld even made an episode based on it.

The only reason I'm recommending these is because it's been my experience that anyone who says they don't like Opera has never really heard much of it. Same thing with Classical Music in general (really, any genre): it's so boring and there's no beat... until they hear Vivaldi's Winter, or the Witches' Sabbath from Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique, or the Rite of Spring, etc.

Good music's good music; it doesn't matter what genre, there are always gems amid the junk, so saying you don't care for an entire genre simply means you haven't dug deep enough.

Not only are translated operas just as in "good taste" as translated poems, but there are plenty of operas originally written in English.

Do you actually think I was being serious? I was riffing on DrWeird's jab at "pseudointellectuals" who pretend to like Opera (an attempted dig at me, I guess), and decided to come back ultra-snooty as a joke.

You weren't that subtle, on a second read. I was either in one of my dumb moods or I was reading too fast. I do this at work...

That's one of the big problems with messaging, etc., when you're trying to be sarcastic or subtle. A lot of times I've just decided not to write something because I thought I'd have to write a hundred smileys and "/sarcasm/'s" to make sure others didn't think I was serious.

I also enjoy rap every day. People look at me funny when they hear this. Why is that?

That said, regardless of what I think of other people's music, I will not deny that it is music. I find that people who do so are very often ignorant, uncultured, self-aggrandizing, elitist, rude, intollerant, and generally unpleasant.

Start with Peter Grimes by Benjamin Britten. Okay, it's not much of an opera, but it's a start.

Then get into Gilbert and Sullivan.

Opera can be sung in any language.

PROJECTION!

Neither is most pop music. What can I say? A lot of rap is just people ripping off others and promoting themselves. Similarly, a lot of what passes for music is just tired, corporate bullshit that really requires little thought or talent.

Does that make me a racist? Not at all. I can appreciate the difference between ligitimate rap/hip hop and crap with shitty lyrics and a stolen bass line.

at least not for this

When rap IS good, however, it can really kick ass!

If you're simply saying that you're a racist if the very presence of someone rapping destroys a song's claim to be music, then you'd be correct.

The fact is, though, that most of the rap that is on the market today is crap. For every NWA or Public Enemy, there are 100 Jay-Z's and Ludacris's. "Move, bitch, get out da way"? Am I racist for saying that's not music?

The rap on MTV is this generation's hair metal. "Cherry Pie," meet "Big Pimpin'."

Especially most of the pop music.

I'm saying you're probably racist if you think rap, as a genre, doesn't qualify as music. The same way people said that about blue and jazz in their era.

if somebody thinks country isn't music, are they racist too?

country music isn't really music, just people say they didn't like it. That phrase "isn't really music" is only really said towards music created by black people.

Eminem is white and the Beastie Boys are Jewish

where everyone wears sheets and pointy white hats

Whoops! That'd make us "White" folks Racists by default...

... however... and I am not a racist by any stretch of the imagination...

The language spoken in the U.S. is English. And I feel that people who choose to live their lives here should attempt to learn English.

I don't like going into a store or business, and I can't communicate because I don't speak Spanish.

If I went to any other country to live, I would make every effort to learn the local language.

That's not saying I think there's anything wrong with any other language. But you are in the U.S... learn English.

I don't think that makes me racist.



Heyo

Really? The guy at the desk next to me is speaking Mandarin. Did China suddenly invade and conquer my portion of the US?

....try their orange glazed chicken over white rice! To die for.



Heyo

nt

... and a co-worker friend of mine is from Taiwan...

Quite a few other coworkers of various Asian descent...

But no, I am not currently close to any Chinese people, but man you just reminded me about Hein. I wonder how he is doing. I always feel bad about the time both of our bikes got stolen from the school bike rack cause we had locked up together.. with MY lock.. which they cut.

Heyo

or did he communicate in english?

I agree with you and I speak 5 languages! Although there is no "national" language, the language of commerce in the US is English. If someone has come here to live, then they should learn the language. If I were to move to Japan, I would learn to speak, read, and write Japanese and not expect my customers (in my store) to speak English. That being said, there should be better education for those wishing to learn English. Various churches have taken the lead and they do not often do a good job. There is a real market for TESL in this country!

Racist is thinking English should be spoken EVERYWHERE in the world. This is one of the ways the "Nasty American" persona was born, because many would go overseas and demand English be spoken...that is sad!

... and I never understand how when you express this, people make it sound like you are trying to say there is something WRONG with other languages or something.

Not true any more than, to use your example, there is something WRONG with English in Japan. There's not, but Japanese is the language that is spoken there. To me it's a matter of having respect for their customs and culture while visiting there. And I would be interested and WANT to learn the language.... nobody would have to tell me.

Heyo

Switzerland has gotten along fine for hundreds of years with 3 "official" languages, French, German, and Italian.

I do agree that for their own good immigrants should learn as much english as possible. But I buy my smokes from a fine Korean gentleman who doesn't seem to know much english at all.

However, almost all Swiss can communicate in one of those three languages. Immigrants to that country only need know one of those three to get along. A native Swiss would be able to communicate with him/her. However, a speaker of Swahili only would have a hard time and would need to learn one of those languages. Since the US is not multi-lingual in that sense, if one moves to the US, s/he should learn English. It doesn't mean they have to abandon their native tongue, but to survive here, they should know some English, they don't have to be completely fluent. You even indicated the Korean man you know speaks some English, he doesn't demand you know Korean, but acknowledges he needs some English to run a business here.

BB!

Try telling the Korean shopkeeper: "Com sa mi da"... it means "thank you".

(It's actually something like "Com sa hab ni da" but when said quickly sounds more like the way I spelled it in the fist line.)

Kam sa ham nee da.

(No, I'm not Korean, so it may not be exactly perfect, but that's the way it was taught to me.)

I hope I understood your post. The language issue is code for racism IMHO.

For older immigrants, learning English is difficult since the ability to learn language diminishes with age. Often they are busy struggling in low end jobs, ghetto-ized with others who do not speak English, and trying to make their way and support their families on meager incomes.

Many of us have ancestors who never learned to speak English well.

On the other hand, the children of immigrants could not be forcefully prevented from learning English should we want to do that.

So where is the problem exactly?



typos fixed on edit

People that believe English should be the official language and enforced.

They say things like:

"I'm sick and tired of haven't to understand foreigners when I go out."

"Go out where?"

"Well, like Mexican restaurants. The waiters only speak Mexican and don't understand if I want to order extra gwackamole, or something."

or

"When I get a machine on the phone, it says for English press 1, for Spanish press 2. I shouldn't have to press 1!"

I'm not making this up..

Almost all nations have a national language. The US is an exception to the rule. I have no issue with other languages being offered to those who could communicate better in their native tonger. However, knowing basics, is VERY important. I never expect an immigrant to speak flawless English, and truth be known, some of them speak better English than native speakers!

The language 'thing' is very scary to Americans because so many do not speak another language. Also, in our culture of fear, they often think others are talking about them and it makes them resentful, which is their own damn issue, IMO! Also, because our government and media demonizes "furiners" as terrorists, knowing or speaking another language makes it more scary.

I am American. I have never lived anywhere but this country. However, I speak multiple languages. I was speaking to a friend of mine in a restaurant. We were both speaking Spanish and French. This asshole leans over and said...speak American or get out! I looked at him and said..."I speak English, I am American, mind your own fucking business!" That is the kind of fear that is out there. We weren't even talking about him...we did after that!

particularly people bring up shopping in certain suburbs where there is a large Vietnamese population with lots of shops with signs in Vietnamese - particularly grocers (don't know if it's that there's heaps of Vietnamese migrants, that they've been quite successful business wise or that they're the community that's most obviously grouped in certain areas??)

My response is always, "well when was the last time you desperately wanted to buy some Nuoc Cham or Goi Cuon" in fact most of them are never anywhere near areas with large numbers of Asian shops anyway.

I actually do buy a lot of food stuffs from the Asian grocer near me, and also the Somali run butcher - while they advertise in their own language because the majority of their customers are strangely enough Vietnamese or Somali or whatever but if you actually bother to ask most people running businesses in English speaking countries DO speak English.

Why is it wrong to expect the waiter to speak some English? They should be able to understand what the customer is asking for. If I were in Russia, I would expect the waiter to speak anything other than Russian. If they were able to address me in English, that would just be a treat (if I was a visitor to the country). However, if I were living in Russia, I should be able to communicate to the waiter in the native language.

As for example two, that is just stupid and could be racist. I have no issue calling somewhere and being asked to "press 1" for English. Sometimes, I just listen to see how many languages are offered. The one issue I have with it is, "press 1 for English," "press 2 for Spanish" and both commands are IN English! To me, that is silly! "Escoje numero dos para espanol" makes more sense! (I don't know how to make the tilde here).

If people are demanding immigrants speak 'perfect' English that is a problem, especially since the president of our nation can't even accomplish that! However, learning enough to 'get by' is acceptable. I can't imagine moving to another country and not at least attempting to learn the native language. I may never speak it like a native, but at least I could 'get by.'

Since this election, my partner and I have thought about leaving the US because we fear what may happen to gays in the next 4 years. One of the places we are looking at is The Netherlands. I told my partner, we need to learn Dutch, even though almost all Dutch speak English. I learn languages very easily, but he doesn't. I told him we couldn't go there if he wasn't going to try to learn. He said as long as I helped him, he would do his best. That is all I can ask, and it is all I ask of those who come to the US to live.

"...it is all I ask of those who come to the US to live..."

That is what people do. Of course. Why wouldn't they? Who is not trying to learn English? I can guarantee you that there will be much less motivation for you to learn Dutch than there is for immigrants here to learn English, because so many Dutch people speak English.

I just don't see the validity of the issue.

I grew up in Detroit and listened to people speaking Polish, Hungarian, Italian, Flemish, Russian, Spanish, German, Czech, Greek, Serbo-Croation, French, Estonian, and other lanhuages. I worked in San Franciso and the majority of my customers spoke Vietnamese, Spanish, Korean, and many other languages.

I don't ever remember having a problem with this. What am I missing?

Actually, more and more people are coming to this country and not learning English because they can live in "ghettos" where their native language is spoken. However, if they leave that enclave, they are in trouble because they cannot communicate effectively. When we had large numbers of immigrants come to this country in the early 1900's and after WWII, they refused to teach their children their native tongue because they wanted their children to be able to "get along." To me, that is sad, because knowing another language makes learning English much easier!

If I were to move anywhere there would be less motivation to learn the native language, because so many people do speak English. I, personally, would love that I was learning another language and having people to practice with would motivate me not to use English. But, that is me personally.

Again, if they speak some English and try, then that works for me. The fact is that in the US, English is understood to be the language of use. This does not preclude others from speaking their own language(s). If the basics are known and used, then that is cool by me.

"...more and more people are coming to this country and not learning English because they can live in 'ghettos' where their native language is spoken."

Really. Really. My word.

What sorts of people would these be? I don't find this to be any more true today in Detroit than it was in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's or 90's.

What are you seeing to back this opinion up?

Some people new to this country will live in neighborhoods, complete with shopping, etc. that cater specifically to their language. I don't think that is a bad thing, unless they don't learn some English. I don't know that I can tell you who "they" are, but several cities throughout the US have small communities within them that cater to a specific language. What I have said, and stand by, is that it is OK to continue to speak and teach your native language, but at least learn some basic English.

I live in Oklahoma and have met quite a few Mexican immigrants who speak no English because they can live and work completely in Spanish in OKC and a few other towns. The problem is if they leave that small community, they will run into problems because they cannot understand basic spoken and written English.

Ghetto can have a negative connotation, but it simply means "neighborhood." I don't see anything wrong with living around others like you.

ON EDIT: I said they CAN live in ghettos. This implies choice. I did not imply they were or are forced there.

You said that because of living in ghettos they didn't need to learn English. "Ghettos are not a bad thing" is another subject altogether.

"Some people new to this country will live in neighborhoods, complete with shopping, etc. that cater specifically to their language."

Well that certainly descibes the neighborhood I live in - shopping and everything that caters specifically to my language - English.

"I don't think that is a bad thing, unless they don't learn some English. I don't know that I can tell you who 'they' are, but several cities throughout the US have small communities within them that cater to a specific language. What I have said, and stand by, is that it is OK to continue to speak and teach your native language, but at least learn some basic English."

Why is it up to you to decide what is and what is not OK about any of this? Who are you to judge what is or isn't a "bad thing" for others?

"I live in Oklahoma and have met quite a few Mexican immigrants who speak no English because they can live and work completely in Spanish in OKC and a few other towns. The problem is if they leave that small community, they will run into problems because they cannot understand basic spoken and written English."

Well, that is their problem, then, and really none of your business. I work extensively with the migrant farm worker community, and ghetto-ization is not a matter of choice or privilege. It is a double whammy to be made unwelcome in the Anglo community and then criticized for your lack of English language skills.

"Ghetto can have a negative connotation, but it simply means "neighborhood." I don't see anything wrong with living around others like you."

Uhhh, yes, ghetto can indeed have a negative connotation.

"Others like you?????" What are you talking about? I live on planet earth with the ones who are like me - I call them fellow human beings. They come in a variety of colors, shapes and sizes and speak a variety of languages. None of those superficial qualities make any of them more or less "like me."

"For older immigrants, learning English is difficult since the ability to learn language diminishes with age. Often they are busy struggling in low end jobs, ghetto-ized with others who do not speak English, and trying to make their way and support their families on meager incomes."

Why are you so concerned that someone else repeated it?

I have a problem with the argument to which you put the word in service.

I was talking about people being forced into ghettos and therefore having limited opportunities to learn English. You talked about ghettos as a choice that allows people to avoid learning English. We are taking the oppositie position. I object to your position, not the words you use.

I don't think anyone should be forced to live anywhere they don't want. And, yes some are forced to live in places they don't want, and that is a problem. It doesn't negate that some do chose to live in certain places. I never said that they chose to live there to "avoid" learning English! I said they chose to live there and didn't have to learn English to survive in their neighborhood, which is fine so long as they never leave that neighborhood. I doubt they live there to "avoid" learning English, but rather live there because it is easier for them to communicate in their native tongue and choose not to learn English.

Right. Sorry. I see that someone else jumped in. My mistake.

Still not seeing why it is anybody's business what language people speak.

Possibility one: you are trying to be obtuse, arrogant, and just plain nasty. IF you are, piss off! There are enough problems to go around without you trying to make more, where none exist!

Possibility two: you are really trying to understand where I am coming from and I have been unclear, leading to miscommunication.

You said that because of living in ghettos they didn't need to learn English. No, I said "Actually, more and more people are coming to this country and not learning English because they can live in "ghettos" where their native language is spoken." (note: emphasis not in original post)

Well that certainly describes the neighborhood I live in - shopping and everything that caters specifically to my language - English. I am sure it does. However, there are also places in the US where the language for that neighborhood is not English.

Why is it up to you to decide what is and what is not OK about any of this? Who are you to judge what is or isn't a "bad thing" for others? And who are you to judge this a good or bad thing? What I said is that if someone lives in this country (meaning they will be here from more than a visit), they should learn some basic English. It is a bad thing when, as an example, a person has an accident because they could not read the precaution sign written in English.

Well, that is their problem, then, and really none of your business. I work extensively with the migrant farm worker community, and ghetto-ization is not a matter of choice or privilege. It is a double whammy to be made unwelcome in the Anglo community and then criticized for your lack of English language skills. It is a problem for everyone when an emergency arises and help is delayed because a translator is needed first! It is a problem when the person cannot understand basic commands and needs or express them! It is sad when people are placed into bad situations and made to feel less than. However, for those forced into a ghetto that they do not wish to be, they stand a better chance of leaving if they speak English in this country!

"Others like you?????" What are you talking about? I live on planet earth with the ones who are like me - I call them fellow human beings. They come in a variety of colors, shapes and sizes and speak a variety of languages. None of those superficial qualities make any of them more or less "like me." This is where I couldn't tell if you were misunderstanding what I said or just being nasty. So, I will address this as if I didn't make myself clear. Some people like to live around others like them, meaning, they want to live around those who speak their language, share their ethnic background, share their sexual orientation, or countless other examples. There is nothing wrong with wanting to live around people you share something in common with. What would be wrong is to not allow someone who didn't share that quality to live near you. I never implied that other qualities, that you may deem "superficial," are inherently better than others! Does someone Jewish wishing to live in a "Jewish" neighborhood, mean that person thinks they are somehow better than non-Jews because they chose to live there? No!

The original post said it was racist if you think English should be the only spoken language in the US. I would agree because of the word "only." However, I do not think it is racist to expect someone who has come to live in this country to speak the basics of the English language! It is no more racist, than it is anti-American, to expect an American living in Japan to speak some basic Japanese!

Edited bad italics

Possibility one: you are trying to be obtuse, arrogant, and just plain nasty. IF you are, piss off! There are enough problems to go around without you trying to make more, where none exist!"

Possibility two: you are really trying to understand where I am coming from and I have been unclear, leading to miscommunication.

Well, I am not trying to do either. I think that I do understand where you are coming from, and I happen to not agree with you.

You said that because of living in ghettos they didn't need to learn English. No, I said "Actually, more and more people are coming to this country and not learning English because they can live in "ghettos" where their native language is spoken." (note: emphasis not in original post)

I disagree with that, as I stated in my other posts.

Well that certainly describes the neighborhood I live in - shopping and everything that caters specifically to my language - English. I am sure it does. However, there are also places in the US where the language for that neighborhood is not English.

Yes. My question to you is, what is the difference?

What I said is that if someone lives in this country (meaning they will be here from more than a visit), they should learn some basic English. It is a bad thing when, as an example, a person has an accident because they could not read the precaution sign written in English.

Well, they do learn English whether they "should" or not, but my question is still this - of what concern it of yours?

It is a problem for everyone when an emergency arises and help is delayed because a translator is needed first! It is a problem when the person cannot understand basic commands and needs or express them! It is sad when people are placed into bad situations and made to feel less than. However, for those forced into a ghetto that they do not wish to be, they stand a better chance of leaving if they speak English in this country!

We disagree. You are saying people are stuck in ghettos because of poor English skills. I say it is more likely the other way around. The language barrier in emergency situations is a self-defeating argument, since the aid workers in a community are likely to speak the language of the community.

This is where I couldn't tell if you were misunderstanding what I said or just being nasty. So, I will address this as if I didn't make myself clear. Some people like to live around others like them, meaning, they want to live around those who speak their language, share their ethnic background, share their sexual orientation, or countless other examples. There is nothing wrong with wanting to live around people you share something in common with. What would be wrong is to not allow someone who didn't share that quality to live near you. I never implied that other qualities, that you may deem "superficial," are inherently better than others! Does someone Jewish wishing to live in a "Jewish" neighborhood, mean that person thinks they are somehow better than non-Jews because they chose to live there? No!

I disagree with your premise here. This is a common argument that racists have used for generations - "they" like to live among "their own kind" and so do I. Nothing supports this. Every ethnic group historically has assimilated as fast as they can to the degree that they can, and all neighborhoods are not equal. You are espousing the old segregationist "separate but equal" rationale here, and I am disagreeing with you.

The original post said it was racist if you think English should be the only spoken language in the US. I would agree because of the word "only." However, I do not think it is racist to expect someone who has come to live in this country to speak the basics of the English language! It is no more racist, than it is anti-American, to expect an American living in Japan to speak some basic Japanese!

You are correct about the original post, and I am defending it. I am further arguing that the statements you are making to attack the op are incorrect.

It is important that people can communicate with one another. English is the understood language of choice in the US. If someone comes here to live, they should be able to speak passing, basic English.

I disagree with your premise here. This is a common argument that racists have used for generations - "they" like to live among "their own kind" and so do I. Nothing supports this. Every ethnic group historically has assimilated as fast as they can to the degree that they can, and all neighborhoods are not equal. You are espousing the old segregationist "separate but equal" rationale here, and I am disagreeing with you. Actually, some do assimilate and others chose to live in ethnic neighborhoods. During earlier waves of immigration, it was more common to want to assimilate. Today, that is not as strong as it had been. This is probably because they can get many things (services) in their native language, thus eliminating the immediate need to learn English.

I am not espousing anything of the such (separate but equal)! I also rebuke the fact that you have insinuated I am a racist! I am talking about those who CHOOSE to live in ethnic neighborhoods, not people FORCED into them. Let me use an inane example: some universities offer "theme" housing. They can be academic, diversity oriented, or social. Students can CHOOSE to live there or not. No one is FORCED to live there. Those that choose to live there do so because they feel a special bond with others like them. I also know that not all neighborhoods are the same. Not all states are the same. Look at the education gaps in the country and you find that it is not because people are more stupid in one area, but that they do not have the same access to education that others do!

The original post said it was racist if you think English should be the only spoken language in the US. I would agree because of the word "only." However, I do not think it is racist to expect someone who has come to live in this country to speak the basics of the English language! It is no more racist, than it is anti-American, to expect an American living in Japan to speak some basic Japanese!

You are correct about the original post, and I am defending it. I am further arguing that the statements you are making to attack the op are incorrect.

It seems we AGREE that it is racist to demand that English be the ONLY language spoken here! And you can argue my points, but in no way did I "attack" the OP, so I fail to see how you are defending anything other than your opinions, which appear to conflict with some of mine. And, I still assert it is not improper or racist to ask those who wish to live here speak English, as well as any other language they want! It is no more racist to ask one to speak Portuguese in Portugal if you are going to live your life there!

Your main contention, if I am understanding, is that we have this new phenomenon of a certain "them" who wants to not learn English and that this is bad in some way and that something should be done.

All I am saying is that I don't see the new problem you are seeing, don't know why it would be bad if it did exist, and don't know why you care or want something done about it. You still haven't explained or supported any of those ideas.

Should English be declared the national language? In my opinion, yes! Not because we should deride other languages or cultures, but then there is a "standard language" by which to communicate. According to the US Census, over 7,600,000 US residents do not speak English well. Another, 3,366,000 do not speak any English. Almost 11 million citizens either speak little or no English, I do see that as a problem. To me, it is important that ALL citizens speak the basics of a standard language in order to communicate. What they speak in their homes, neighborhoods, churches, etc, it is their choice of what language to use, but for public discourse, the basics of English should be understood.

Do you think it is racist for other nations to have a declared national language?

First, we agree on many things - people being able to communciate is a good thing. English is the most common language in this country, so it is helpful for people to be able to speak it. Some day Republicans may rediscover it.

Here is where we part - and I do appreciate you working through this with me -

What problem would be solved by making English the official language? Immigrants are already learning it as quickly as they need or want to learn it. Their children invariably learn it. So. where is the problem and how does your remedy solve it?

Are there children of immigrants somewhere in this country who are prevented from learning English? I think not. Are there children of immigrants somewhere in the country who are insufficiently motivated to learn English? I think not. That means that the situation today is precisely as it was 100 or 200 years ago when many iof our ancestors came here. Perhaps they themselves were too old to ever learn English, but it is a self-correcting problem, because wild horses could not prevent their children from learning English.

I am glad we have realized we do have some points in common! And, I hope the Rethugs do learn English, but it might help if they had a positive example as opposed to the boob in the WH who can't say simple things!

It is my opinion that English declared as our national language would codify the language as THE language that is to be spoken in business and public discourse. Now, if a company all understand, let's say Polish, then I see no problem requiring the employee to be able to speak both English and Polish for business purposes.

The vast majority in this country only speak English and I believe it would be counter-productive to have another language as the preferred language. However, as we evolve as a nation, perhaps we will be like the Swiss and speak numerous languages as we once did. Having a national language is also a matter of pride (something not really lacking in this country).

All that being said, English-only would be a negative policy and, again, my opinion, would restrict the growth of our country. So, would the declaration of a national language solve any real problems? Probably not, but it also wouldn't hurt anything either.

It is part of the bigot's agenda. The Republicans will use any English only initiatives as a tool to mistreat and oppress people.

The real problem in this country IMHO is not that we are insufficiently homogenized or that we need to teach fewer languages - quite the contrary.

I agree. The thought that declaring English as the national language would allow some bigots to get rid of things already in place in other languages does upset me.

This country originally started as a polyglot nation. It evolved into an English-speaking nation. It may continue to evolve into a bi- or multi-lingual nation. But having a national language(s) doesn't seem to be that problematic to me.

Just out of curiosity, do you speak any other languages? I speak (with varying fluency) 6 and know sign language (ASL).

OK I will shut up now. Which 6 languages?

I muddle along in German a little, and know 100 words and 20 phrases in each of a couple of dozen languages.

Just a side note...in another post, we seem to thinking along the same lines! I just read where you posted to something I wrote in another thread. I am glad I chose to continue this debate with you!

I speak English (of course..haha), Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, and some German. I can read and write Hebrew and Greek, some Russian. I know a smattering of phrases in Swahili, Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, and Arabic. I used to know some Hungarian, Thai, Tagalog, and Korean, but remember very little, maybe two words or sayings.

And! I have never been out of the United States (except to the Bahamas!).

I studied multiple languages in college, have a degree in Spanish, and actually teach myself languages when I get bored!

Bragging can be fun!

Man, I am impressed. No wonder you think it is no big deal for others to learn new languages!

I am that way about learning new musical styles - I play Spanish, Mexican, Italian, Hungarian, Russian, Ukrainian, etc. folk styles and always learning more. Kinda like you are with languages I guess?

Where are we on the same side on a thread?

Thanks for hanging in there. I am pretty opinionated. I hate it when people bail on a conversation before they reach an understanding.

I am proud of my language talent. It is one area I really enjoy and often encourage others to learn. I have taught English to non-native speakers.

As for our agreement thread, I'm sick and tired of people of faith pretending they are the oppressed.

As I am sure you can tell, I am very opinionated too! Especially about language and diversity issues. I used to give diversity seminars when I had a job!

Thanks for the discourse!

I recognized your username, but I couldn't place it.

"Often, those in power project what they are in fact guilty of. I see Christians claiming discrimination or oppression but ignore their own actual discriminatory acts. I see whites bitching about not having a "White History Month." I see straights complaining about "Why is their no Straight Pride Parade?" The majority tries to play role of victim when a minority group makes a move for equality. It is NOT to say that discrimination against those in majority does not occur, because we all know it does. But, if it occurred as much as minority discrimination occurred, I think there would be many in the majority who might change their tunes! They would finally understand true discrimination and oppression!"

You nailed it there!

Consider this your official virtual "pat on the back!" Well done, and it is a pleasure reading your views and ideas.

I appreciate the kudos. I do honestly believe in the equality of all people and I see many who get tripped up on delicate issues because they are not allowed to "think it through" without being ripped apart first. As an educator, it is more important for me to try and educate than to "win" any debate or discussion.

Open one mind, open one heart, and many more will follow!

Brightest Blessings!

I accidentally replied to myself. So dazzled by the description of your linguistic skills that I got confused.

Come on. A hundred years ago, lots of cities had "Little Italy", "Little Warsaw", etc. The immigrant groups have changed; the path to assimilation is strangely familiar.

My great-grandparents moved here from Poland; my grandparents who were born here lived in Polish neighborhoods where English was rare (although they learned it eventually), my parents learned Polish before English, and my mom made us kids, the fourth generation here in the States, the first "American" generation in our family because she taught us only English. In retrospect, she wishes she had taught us Polish, but I may try to pick it up one of these days.

you're being nostalgic.

during the late 19th/early 20th centuries, immigrant communities were enclaves where native languages and customs were kept ALIVE.

immigrants trying to stay in their "ghettoes" to retain their cultural identity in a foreign land is no new phenomenon.

you make it seem like immigrants are maliciously clinging to their language to affront americans.

I don't think immigrants are "maliciously clinging" to their language or culture to affront Americans. If anyone is "maliciously clinging" to their language or culture to affront anyone I would say it would be some Americans.

I think we agree, in some respect, to your other assertions.

....well said.

I am guessing this point would've been assumed: I am not saying be fluent, and be able to recite English poetry with perfect intonation.

Just enough to get by, enough to go in a resteraunt and order, enough to understand what a doctor, paramedic, or fire department personnel or police might be saying, etc.

Behind the Ageis, when you went over to the Netherlands, and imagine they *didn't* peak much English, and somebody sort of expected you to know some Dutch when they talked to you... would you honestly feel discriminated against?

Would anybody?

Heyo

I never went to The Netherlands, it is just one of the places my partner and I are thinking of "fleeing" to! And, no, I would not feel discriminated against if a Dutch person didn't speak English to me while I was in Holland! Especially, if I was choosing to live there. Although, most Dutch do speak some English, as do most Europeans.

You and I agree. I am not asking for perfect English...Hell, the boob in the WH cannot speak proper English, I am sure not expect someone moving here to be able to speak perfectly! I just expect that the basics are known.

BB!

...if that's true, I guess I am a racist. But you would have to know me personally to know how far fetched that is, I guess.

If went to another country to live, and was expected to learn the language in order to get by, do you think I would consider that they are being *prejudiced* against me? Ridiculous.

The funny thing is a lot of my minority friends, including Hispanics, feel the same way as me.

My great grandfather passed away at the age of 96 in 1990. He migrated from Germany in 1958. He went to his grave without ever learning a word of English. It made things more difficult than they could've been. If he would've learned English he would've had a lot of things go a lot easier. He had us to (gladly) help him make his phone calls for him regarding his pension, banking business and what have you.

I believe that a person can learn a language almost any at any age, unless they are really, really old.

This has nothing do with any specific race, nor just America. You go to another country to live permanently, you really should try and learn the basics of the language that is spoken there. It makes life alot easier on YOU, #2, and it makes it much easier to communicate with you in case of an emergency.

What if there is a fire or something, and emergency personnel are shouting instructions to a trapped person in English, a language that they don't understand. It takes time to get a foreign language speaking officer at the scene, etc.

It just seems like it makes sense to me. That whole "When in Rome..." deal. Be careful throwing around that race card.



regards,

Heyo

the more the "I'm not a racist" argument is looking worse for you. In one post you manage to use multiple terms that racists love to use. I wouldn't have pegged you as a racist based on your first post in this thread. I could defend that post against charges of racism, even if I thought you were wrong. This one, however...

Using the phrase "throwing around the race card" alone deducts an awful lot of points.

I lost some points?! Where's my violin?

I'm supposed to sit here and try to convince you I'm not a racist? What a joke. If you actually knew me, you'd realize how dumb you sound.

Look, if you try hard enough, you can make anyone or anything out to seem prejudiced. Good luck with that!



on edit: Heyo

on edit again: I take back calling you dumb. I realize you just don't know me, therefore don't know nay better.

But, if you're going to post, expect that people are going to respond.

If I remember correctly, you've admitted that you're a Republican, back when you first joined. If that is so, then pardon me if I don't think that your opinion of my intelligence matters all that much. I also never insulted your intelligence, or even accused you of being a racist. I just said that some of your statements sounded racist. So, if you want insults, try another board, particularly one that leans more toward your beliefs politically. You may have taken it back, but I saw what you posted. And I think THAT, more than anything else, shows your true colors.

... I am not a Republican.

Conservative on some issues, yeah. But always Independant.

(Read my 1000th post, if that's still possible, to get more on that, I explained it all then.. archived maybe?.. all for another story anyway.. besides, it shouldn't matter)

"I also never insulted your intelligence, or even accused you of being a racist. I just said that some of your statements sounded racist. "

As far as I am concerned, if you make racist statements, that sort of makes you a racist. If you are saying somebone makes racist statements, it pretty much equates to calling them one. Forgive me, but I am having a hard time separating those two concepts. This is why I took slight offense to what you said.

"You may have taken it back, but I saw what you posted."

That's why I left it there, instead of editing it out, and I posted a retraction. So you could see what I said, and then the retraction.

I didn't personally call you dumb. I said that calling me a racist is dumb, and if you knew me you'd understand. Doesn't mean you are not smart. Even the smartest people say things sometimes that are wrong. Hence my retraction aknowledging that.



Heyo

that I wasn't calling you a racist. That some of the terminology you were using was the same thing that racists use. "Race card" for example. If you're going to claim that you aren't a racist, I was trying to nudge you into looking at what you're saying, because it might make you appear otherwise. That was what my whole points joke was about. I guess that didn't go over the way I thought it would.

I would have sworn I remember you saying you're a Republican, or something to that effect, but if you say otherwise, then I believe you. I can't look in archives anyway But, you're definitely a bit further to the right of me, and I don't need archives to tell me that

... it's cool we understand each other. No harm done.

However, I (respectfully) reject your notion that somebody who uses the term "race card" is a racist.

Playing the "race card" simply means (to me, anyways) injecting the notion of racism into a situation where there previously was none, in order to skew the situation a certain way or to demonize an individual or group of people. Or, to throw the accustation of "well you're just a racist!" out there as a last resort when one is losing an argument, so as to tar the other person with the "racist" label, whether it's true or not, which is a brand I would imagine is pretty hard to shake, too, so it would suck to be branded as such if you're not racist to the bottom of your heart.

That's the way I see it. To simplify, it's crying racism where there is none. And I don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing that that does take place.

Heyo

In the context of what is being discussed in this thread, I think the claim of "race card" was unwarranted. I know that there are instances where claims of racism aren't based in fact. But, the person making that claim almost always feels that race was an issue, and it is because 9 times out of 10, it usually IS an issue. I would question the facts, but I wouldn't throw an accusation like "playing the race card" at them. I don't think that "race card" is an accusation that can ever come from a member of the majority without their motives questioned.

In other words, you can make an argument for yourself that your motives for believing in the "English only" movement aren't racially motivated. But, you cannot make that call for everyone else, particularly for the people at whom the prejudices are aimed. And, try to look at why that is so. I think the problem is that a vast majority of people with racist views don't think they are racist, or that their views are racist. So, when confronted with their prejudices, they vehemently defend themselves instead of looking at the argument. And they do so in much the same way you have in this thread.

the language(s) of the country you are living in, however, I think people have a right to speak in their native language to each other, yet time after time, English speakers will complain about another language spoken around them by speakers of those languages who are talking among themselves. I once worked in a place with African Americans and Persians in the majority. Everyone spoke English when it related to the job, however, the African Americans would talk in Ebonics among themselves and the Persians in Pharsi.

So one day some Middle America type starts whining that everyone should speak English because this is America. Needless to say she got shot down, being in the minority there. But this is what I am saying, when people are among their own, they tend to speak the language they are comfortable in. When someone insists that they have to understand everything that is being said, when it has nothing to do with them, it's racist.

When I grew up in Chile with a group of expat Americans, Chileans and Germans, we developed a patois that was a combination of all three languages. No one understood us except each other. We always made a point though of conducting conversations in the language of the person present if he was outside the inner circle.

As far as languages in America. I am constantly amused by white people in California and Texas who think Spanish should be outlawed. Texas and California were colonies of Spain at one time and the official language was Spanish. So I agree everyone should be English, in those states, however, English speaking Americans should also make an effort to learn Spanish. Both these states and New Mexico are bilingual states, not just English speaking or just Spanish speaking.

I mean, so what?

This "you should," "they should" stuff stinks. Lead your own life. Let them live theirs.

when they hear people talking in a different language, they get upset because they think their talking about him/her behind his/her back. That, or the just think English is superior.

"I want everybody to speak English, just like Jesus did," said the Republican.

.....the lack of it is the biggest problem in America today.

There is a very good political reason for maintaining multiple languages in the US, and that is because the tyrants have so co-opted the English language for propaganda that it has made communication just about impossible. Lots of words fly around that are English language words, but very little comprehension or understand results from this.

English-only laws or "English is the official language" laws, actually make no more sense than laws forbidding the use of English would now that I think about it. If we could do away with right wing propaganda in the proces, I would happily give up English and start over from scratch in a language that I am not fluent in. I would choose freedom over convenience.

(second paragraph is tongue in cheek, of course)

I can only state how I feel, but I seem to be largely in line with Heyo.

It's not a matter of "I speak English and you should speak English because I speak English and I'm better than you," but an issue of "you should learn English because that is what most people in this country speak, it's what our laws are written in, and you will be destroying a barrier to higher employment or better business if you learn it." If I were to work in Germany, I'd expect Germans to expect me to speak German. Same in France. Same in Japan.

It's not a matter of language superiority, but of simple efficiency: it's frankly easier and cheaper for one immigrant to learn the local language than for all of the locals to learn the language of every immigrant that enters their country.

It's a free country.

But if I am a paramedic, who only speaks English, and I am trying to communicate with some frightened person who might be having a heart attack, or communicate with that person's family, and they cannot understand me, you bet your ass I will want them to speak English.

And if they don't.. yes there will be some "they shoul've" and "I wish they would've" going through my mind.



Heyo

other than English. I've never met anybody who lived in the U.S. and didn't want to learn and use English. Older people have a little trouble, but they still try. Their children grow up speaking English.

It just isn't a problem. The idea that there are millions of stubborn immigrants in the United States refusing to learn English is just a myth.

There is no argument about the use of languages other than English that holds up under any questioning at all. Ergo, there must be another factor at play, and I belive that it is racism.

If it is OK to teach Spanish in a public school where there are no immigrants from Spanish speaking countries, why is it NOT ok when there are immigrants - or descendants of immigrants - in the school? Race is the only variable that we have introduced in the second scenario as opposed to the first.

.... there isn't a large number of people who don't speak English. This discussion originated as just a response to that particular item on the "racist" list. (the original post)

Heyo

But, it makes you wrong.

I just love it when people are offended when anyone speaks a language other than English. As if it were an affront to THEM. How dare they live and breath in the good ol' U S of A without speaking our language? As if someone could come to this country and learn to speak the language enough to be well understood by a native in 3 weeks or less. Did it ever occur to you that the person that irritates you so much is trying to learn the language? No, your viewpoint doesn't come off as racist, it comes off as incredibly self centered.

If this is you, you are to cease eating all fruits and vegetables while living in this state.

Why? cause given the fact that virtually produce you eat here in Az is picked by them damn "Brown People who speak Mexican" you might catch a disease.

will be the downfall of a merit based society but don't say a word about nepotism, cronyism, or patronage jobs

- if you think that there is such a thing as "reverse racism"

- if you demand that someone "prove" that you are a racist

- if you think "pc speech" has something to do with racism

- if you think the concept of "race" has any validity or meaning as a way to categorize people

- if you think you can "prove" that you are NOT racist

- if you think being called a racist is mean or unjust treatment

- if you believe that "playing the race card" can "work both ways"

- if you think suburbia would exist without racism

- if you think that the war on drugs would exist without racism

- if you think of "them" as a group

- if you are unaware of dozens of racist comments in the mass media every day

- if you imagine yourself to be completely free of harboring any racist attitudes

on edit - if you find yourself experiencing a quick negative reaction when you read any of these