How does this long time Feminist quote make you feel?

[SarahB]

This was written over 30 years ago and I think sadly, it's still too valid about how in regards to societal expectations, as a woman, you just can't win.

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. It reminds me of a conversation I had with an elderly lady

who told me that the single most visible and universal social change she had seen in her nearly ninety years on earth was that women can wear pants anywhere now, even older women, and even to work in offices or attend religious services.

[cally]

18. Being able to wear pants is important

I never realized it until I supervised an overnight field trip to a fort. We had to wear period clothing so all the women wore long skirts. It poured all weekend and all the skirts got soaked. I spent the weekend wearing a soaking wet skirt. The mens' pants didn't get that wet.

The quote makes me sad because I don't think much has changed in 30 years. A couple of days ago, I posted an article that the reason that most Americans don't like Teresa Heinz Kerry and adore Laura Bush is misogyny.

edit: grammar

[mandyky]

80. In my lifetime, early elementary, was when we could wear pants

to school. In first grade one of our girls got paddled by the teacher because she tucked her dress in her snow pants. And I am from upstate NY. I think we had to wear dresses until Jr. High school, come to think of it.

[jdj]

83. I don't believe "most americans" feel that way.

that's repuke hype.

I'm not sure anyone really adores Laura Bush either, I think they are lukewarm on her, it's not like a Nancy Reagan thing.

[Iris]

89. People liked Nancy Reagan? n/t

[jdj]

94. yes, repukes luvvved her.

[Iris]

126. I was a kid when they were in office.

All I remember is my mom talking about how large her head was on her overly-skinny body!

[cally]

97. I'll look for the link but the article

cited polls where something like 2/3 of Americans have have an unfavorable opinion of Teresa Heinz Kerry. The poll surprised me.

[Cleita]

38. Anyone who has had to wear a girdle

and high heel shoes on the job in the past for eight to ten hours a day, will appreciate pants and low heeled shoes on the job. Anyone who has had to work standing with high heeled shoes and hosiery without being allowed to sit down to rest will appreciate pants and low heeled shoes.

I will always remember when my mother, who worked at the Medical Center at UCLA, came home one day to announce that pants would be allowed for women to wear in the Medical Center. It appears that a nurse who had to give CPR and mouth to mouth resuscutation to a patient who had collapsed in the lobby also gave a fine show of her underwear, while administering the life saving actions on that patient.

I too became one of the first females to be allowed to wear pants to work in my company store. I was working in the automotive center and my job involved climbing high ladders to inventory the auto parts, batteries and tires. I refused to and shanghied salesmen and mechanics to climb the ladders for me.

My boss, a chauvinstic but practical man, finally decided that a warehouse wasn't the best place for skirts and high heeled shoes, so he prevailed on the head office to give me a pass. Within a year, women were allowed to wear pants and low-heeled shoes to work in this company because most of the women had to stand on their feet all day.

[DuctapeFatwa]

39. I did not, nor do I think the old lady intended to minimize the benefits

of comfortable clothing, but rather to suggest that as terrific as it is, it is not an acceptable substitute for equality.

[Cleita]

41. Did she say it was an acceptable substitute for equality?

It isn't, but it is a step towards that goal. It's also really a matter, not of comfort, but of being able to concentrate on your job better because you are appropriately dressed for maximum efficiency.

[DuctapeFatwa]

46. and that increased concentration will still get you 76 cents on the dollar

that your brother earns, in the United States, considered to be the forefront of gender equality.

Alas for less affluent single mothers, neither landlords nor utility companies have expressed an interest in charging them 76 cents on the dollar of the going rates for housing and electricity.

[Cleita]

47. Back when I earned 53 cents on the dollar

in my girdle, skirt and high heeled shoes, I brought this argument up with my landlord and others regularly. I often managed to get $10 a month grudgingly lopped off of my rent. I was also told that I should get married then I could afford the rent.

So you see I have been fighting this battle of equality for a long time. I usually worked a part time job bartending after my regular job to make ends meet. I was more fortunate than many of my single mother co-workers who also had to work two jobs while trying to raise children single-handedly as well.

So we have made some steps forward, but the neo-cons are trying to take us back to the dark ages again. Unfortunately, women's rights are on the back burner right now with the horrendous things we have to fix that our Prezidunce has done in the last four years.

[DuctapeFatwa]

48. and maybe if they had been kept on the front burner, by whatever means

necessary, US society would have made different choices over the decades, and this whole conversation would be less moot.

[Cleita]

51. Well, when the people with the most money, entitlement and

power happen to be white men, the back burner is sometimes the best we can do. I, for one, am for passing a law requiring all government elected offices must be filled 50/50 with both genders to make at least gender representation equal. I think this would solve a lot of other problems with minorities having adequate representation as well.

[DuctapeFatwa]

53. I cannot think of a single instance in history where feudal lords have

voluntarily relinquished their power to the serfs.

[Cleita]

55. No, it will take forcing it from them, which is why

women aren't there yet, but I think the upcoming generations will do it. As soon as I learn how to do this web thing, I am setting up a website for just that. Young women need to be reminded by us old crones as to why they are still second class citizens and how bad it was back when you didn't have a husband and how it could often be worse, when you did have a husband.

[DuctapeFatwa]

56. Well that is where we disagree, I think women will be the ones who

WILL take it from them, although in light of the current situation, the "it " will likely consist of cave-friendly resources.

You don't need to learn to do the web thing, you can get a blog, it is so easy even I can do it.

[Cleita]

61. I have a blog. It's a "dear diary" type of thing for

my own sanity. I want a website because there are a lot of things I want to put up that a blog can't accommodate without getting very messy.

[FizzFuzz]

54. If women's issues were front burner, Fuckhead's second day in office

would have been his last. GLOBAL GAG RULE=DEATH SENTENCE FOR WOMEN

[DuctapeFatwa]

59. I disagree. If women's issues had been on the front burner in time

Barbara Bush, like all women, would have had easy access to effective and safe contraception methods, and possibly even enough education to make better choice of partner.

[Cleita]

63. Very true. Barbara was truly a classic doormat wife to

George H. W., who really didn't bother to even ask about her feelings when he upended his family for his own political ambitions over and over again. I remember the statement she made when Reagan died something to the effect that Nancy was so fortunate to have a husband who loved her so much.

[MISSDem]

178. She was a classic Republican wife. Just like

Betty Ford was when she was diagnosed with breast cancer. When asked if she had made up her mind on what treatment she was going to have the response from the press secretary was that the president had made his mind up and she would have a mastectomy. Can you believe it?

[FizzFuzz]

68. LOLOL!! Good point!

I bow to your superior logic!

;) :thumbsup:

[FizzFuzz]

52. I was wondering why everyone was responding to the clothing issue

and ignoring the thousands of other opressions we as women have to fight continualy, (violence against women and the willingness of courts to victimize the victim, anyone interested in that?) because the plain and simple logic that WOMEN ARE PEOPLE hasn't seemed to take hold at a gut level in this society.

Even on this board, sexism is a muddy area that always seems to provoke a fight. Some of the comments I see here would never get by if they were made in terms of any other group.

[Cleita]

62. There are those of us who find the sexism on this board

often maddening, but it's just a symptom of the bigger problem we are up against in society at large.

[FizzFuzz]

69. yes I agree. It really drives me crazy here sometimes.

There are many times I just have to back awaaay from the computer for awhile.

Its just draining.

[Iris]

90. This is why you will never see a start next to my name. eom

[Kanary]

103. Good for you, Iris. I agree.

wish there was an applaud emoticon here......

:thumbsup:

Kanary

[Iris]

125. Thanks.

I always say this when this subject comes up and so far I've only received positive feedback.

[Kanary]

136. I'm glad to hear that!

There's so much attacking on DU, and so much sexist attacks, that it surprises me, but I'm very glad.

I appreciate knowing that there are others who draw a line and stick to it.

:hi:

Kanary

[Iris]

137. Interesting,

I just saw a thread started in the Lounge about how Misunderestimator is not going to start any hot chick threads until after the election and some of the first to respond had no star either (but not b/c they think there's anything wrong with being sexist, obviously.)

[smirkymonkey]

95. That's exactly how I feel - sometimes it's like trying to

reason with a freeper. They just WON'T hear it because it challenges their reality, and they don't want that reality challenged.

[Kanary]

100. You're so right, FizzFuzz, no other group would tolerate the

descrimination like what is shown to women.

Muddy area, indeed. Mud flung towards women here, then feigned shock when some women protest. I particularly noted, in that NOW poster, the comment about women's appearance and sex appeal being so important. That is something that is continually posted on this board about women, yet nothing seems to be learned.

The insensitivity is amazing.

I've said repeatedly that I know of NO women who would tolerate the junk that is posted here. If women were talked to in campaign offices as they are here, there would be a dearth of women volunteers, and legitimately so. So, if men can control their sexist impulses in campaign offices, I'm certain they can here, also.

You've obviously observed it, and I hope that when you see it here, you will post about it, and hit alert.

It's time women were treated with respect!

Kanary

[FizzFuzz]

114. I speak up about it alot.

and get tired out about it too.

There ARE alot of men and women here who ARE aware, so that's good.

I don't want to censor people. Actually, what I'd prefer is for people to become convinced themselves and arrive at a point where they are turned off by crappy put downs of women. Similar to the internalized reactions most people now have to put downs of other groups.

And in contrast to that marvelously enlightened attitude, I'd also better admit that I have thought, if only women had rioted and gone ballistic like black people did during the "Black Panther" period, we might be farther along. Yes, I know this is a really ass-brained thing to say, I'm cringing as I say it and I realize that racism is NOT a thing of the past. I'm just talking about remembering, when I was an adolescent the period after all the uprisings, when white people avoided insulting black people, not because white people really believed black people were equal, but because they were afraid of getting their asses kicked. I was aware of that. NOw that fear has evolved into a realization that OF COURSE racism is bad and most people are pretty naturally sickened by it.

Unfortunately, alot of sexism comingles with titillation and sensationalism. Sexual arousal is a pretty damn big payoff to try to refigure. So the battle is bigger than just fighting devaluation.

[Tsiyu]

116. Sexual arousal, like hunger, is a good thing

Keeps us in a future generation, brings us touch so we don't "fail to thrive."

But you learn to compartmentalize. If you're hungry, it's natural to think of food. You don't grab someone's fries off their plate. You don't ( if you're polite) stand in front of a dining stranger and tell him how much you want to eat his fries, and how you imagine they'll taste.

And if that person is a boss or coworker or subordinate, you try your damnedest to be a professional and subjugate the hunger so you can conduct business.

[FizzFuzz]

117. that's a good metaphor, about food.

no text, I'm too tired to think anymore! The wave of tiredness just hit me.

Sure wouldn't mind some good ol' extra crunchy french fries right about now. :D

[Kanary]

138. Very good description of objectification of women.

:grr:

[jdj]

149. not to mention that some just grab the fries to piss people off

this is where I draw the line, and this is behavior men WILL NOT cop to.

The fry-grabbers are not hungry, they are pissed, they are hurt inside, and hurt people hurt others. We telegraph that this behavior is hurtful, so they grab the fries and then say "but I was hungry". You weren't hungry, you fat asshole, get some therapy.

I don't have a star either (regarding Iris' post) and so far I haven't been kicked off, because I think there is a fair amount of trollish assaultive fry-grabbing-as-disruption technique going on here. I don't know what the answer is, but I know if I did have a site, from watching DU I'd allow no profanity of any kind, not out of prudishness, but just out of the incredible amount of energy it drains away to have to navigate this amount of people's different perceptions of what is sexist/offensive, etc.

[Kanary]

140. It's interesting how demands to curtail sexism inevitably brings up "Free

Speech".

:wtf:

Is free speech endangered when the "n" word is disallowed here?

is free speech endangered when people aren't allowed to badger gays here?

Is free speech endangered when people aren't allowed to post personal attacks?

As I said....:wtf:

Kanary

[jdj]

150. there is a sentiment running among males of this

generation, I don't know what it is, but it's in enough pop art that one can make out a faint silhouette. It's a fine thread of resentment, but I can't articulate it more than that, because I'm female.

I personally think it is fine line to tread for these young men to devote their energy to this emotion or whatever it is, because as Eminem has apparently figured out, women are not the real enemy, we are not gonna draft your ass. Okay, repuke women will, but I question the motives of any of the people who repeated chick-hassle women on DU. Young men need to get it together and fight the real enemy before the real enemy has them blown up in some stupid war.

[bloom]

181. On Cspan - the Daily Show group was on - taking questions

from the audience about their book, etc.

One woman stood up and took note of the one woman and asked what was up with the guys club.

As much as I enjoy the political/media humor of the show - sometimes the show seems made for/with 12-13 year old boy sensibilities - and I just cringe.

Jon Stewert shot back to the questioner - that woman aren't funny.

I think Jon Stewert and company can have any kind of show they want - but I also think that a lot of this misogyny is perpetuated with shows with humor like that.

:(

[NashVegas]

162. It's a Great Symbol

IMO, there are two practical reasons for wearing a skirt and both of them have to do with sexual attraction.

I've got nothing against skirt/dress wearing, in fact, I'm in one right now (frivolous reasons). But the idea that if I were instead wearing pants, it would be inappropriate in the workplace, that's just fucked up.

[Selwynn]

2. Yeah.... I'm sad to say that could have been written about life in 2004

I'm not trying to say that no progress has been made, but reading that made me very sad. It really felt awfully true far too often. Heck, I've even heard a lot of those attitudes right here on DU when certain subjects come up.

That's not so much a dig a DU as it is me saying, if it can happen here in this place of strong liberalism, then its still a prevalent part of society. :(

However, at the same time....

...there was a time where no male would have writing anything like what this male has just written. And that is an encouraging thought.

[classof56]

3. It makes me feel the same as it did 30 years ago--angry.

And of course, frustrated. Many young women nowadays do not realize the hard-fought battles that brought us as far as we've come. And if we don't remain vigilant, we could end up back where we started. That is just one of the many, many reasons we must:

DEFEAT BUSH!!

[jdj]

84. Damn Straight.

sometimes in my most despondent moments I think that maybe losing Roe would wake up these free-riders.

So many of these young women are so disengaged, they think the rights they have are permanent, and won't be revoked, when all it takes is one supreme to croak to turn their worlds upside down.

[smirkymonkey]

96. Part of it is that this materialistic society has convinced young

women that their only currency is thier appearance. Therefore, they pour all their energy into being thin and looking good, all their money into cosmetics, surgery and clothing that they can ill afford and all their self-esteem into their ability to attract a man.

I played that game for a while until I realized that I didn't want what that kind of bullshit attracted. However, it's a way that this society keeps women down - by distracting them with shallow things that suck up all their energy and resources.

[FizzFuzz]

106. yep, I can so relate.

I've been through those stages too. Wish I knew how to value myself for something other than my attractiveness quotient when I was in my teens, twenties and thirties.

Our appearance becomes so fundamental to our self respect. OUr appearance also influences how we are treated, which creates a vicious circle, since it is part of our fundamental nature as humans to assess ourselves by the assessments of others.

I guess that would put men under pressure to do and achieve, since that is how they are assessed. Better off that way? Maybe or maybe not, depends, but one thing's for sure, a drive to achieve and maximize one's talents takes ya farther and for a longer time than a drive to apply makeup.

[smirkymonkey]

120. So true. And to go even deeper into it for me is

to get rid of the desire to please others PERIOD! As long as we give our power to others, whether it's men, parents, bosses, society, etc, to determing our self-worth, we will always be scrambling for approval and admiration.

It's very difficult, but I am really trying to be mindful of everything I do and why I am doing it. It's amazing how many things that were taking up my valuable time were things that I PERSONALLY wasn't interested in at all! It was all about being acceptable to other people!

I think women need to become more selfish in some ways - I think that is the only way to becoming truly liberated.

[Cerridwen]

4. I have thought for many years now, that you can tell the level

of suppression of any given "group" by the number of "catch-22" standards, i.e., double standards, that are applied to that "group."

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

5. Now tell us about the draft

Millions of american men have been killed or maimed while in FORCED combat while no woman has. (I realize some woman have died in wars but they were volunteers.) You may say that's just one example of bias against men but it's a damn big one.

[SarahB]

6. Men cannot become forcibly impregnated in war.

I think that's a big reason why historically woman are not drafted anyway.
My original statement was not anti-men anyway. It was about cultural expectations of women. I'm far from a "man-hater". I'm strait and the mother of three young boys whom I love very much.

edit: grammar

[jdj]

88. why, why, why

does it always, at the base, always seem to come down to succession of the "right" DNA from one generation to the next. I find drive behind human drives...it's depressing.

[Selwynn]

7. Well you're in luck! Because that's all gonna change in 2005

..if Bush is elected president. Women will have the "privilege" of the same unjust treatment of a draft into an unjust and illegal war. Somehow that just doesn't seem like a positive step in the right direction. :)

[kayell]

11. For that matter, thinking that lesbians are "man-haters" is ridiculous

I enjoy being around a number of men I know, I just don't wan't to go to bed with them. Implying that lesbians are "man-haters" makes as much sense as calling all straight men "man-haters".

[SarahB]

13. I hope you didn't think I meant that.

I don't at all and I do apologize if I sounded like that. I was trying to point out where this poster of "Now tell us about the draft" was probably flawed with his thought process of how he viewed what I was trying to say or where I was coming from. Some types want to pigeonhole anyone with any feminist thoughts as a "man hater" or a lesbian when those are both respectively completely different subjects.

[kayell]

29. I didn't really, but it kind of bothers me that this first thing many

say when accused of being man-haters is that they are straight. It rather makes it sound like they are saying that the reverse of man-hater is heterosexual female. I know very, very well how the two accusations are tied together by anti-feminists, and I also realize that it is now almost an automatic response for many women to immediately respond to the attack by denying lesbianism. The problem is that is responding in the attackers own terms. The myth will persist unless all women, gay, straight and bi learn to call the perpetrators on it.

[UL_Approved]

8. Too busy at home...

...being bare-foot and pregnant, not to mention that they had to take over factory work IN ADDITION to the home life.

[SWPAdem]

9. So tell me

is it our fault that we are not subject to the draft....or is it the result of paternalistic and misogynist thinking on the part of the men that make the rules? This woman that wasn't forced, but VOLUNTEERED would like to know.

[FizzFuzz]

66. you got dat right! n/t

[Ripley]

12. Bias against men by whom?

Women certainly did not make those laws. Women certainly never were Presidents who sent men to war. Women certainly do not have the power to determine that historic bias.

Maybe you should take your shit up to the MEN who made those decisions, not feminists. Why does it always come down to that? You guys ignore the entire relevance of the old quote that is still true today and bring up war, as if that makes it all okay. Because men died in a war that women were not drafted into, all women should pay the price of being systematically and universally discriminated against...forever.

Fuck that.

[smirkymonkey]

44. Thank you! Beautifully put!

I couldn't think of how to respond to that post without getting snarky.

[FizzFuzz]

57. RIGHT ON

and if that guy doesn't like men getting killed in wars, then he should work along with women to get more women into office.

51% of the gov't offices being held by women would sure bring some change!

[JanMichael]

143. Damn! That's one succinct response. Direct and to the point.

No need for me to add my two cents to your gem.

[noiretextatique]

76. there is equal opportunity for the victims of war

bombs don't just target men, and bullets don't magically veer away from women.

[jdj]

86. let me step aside if I am keeping you from doing something about that.

women,gays,racial "minorites" have marched and marched and marched our asses off for our rights, yet if conscription is as objectionable to you as it should be, why in the name of God do white males not hold an anti-draft march every-year?

Just in case. Why aren't you all marching right now...because if W. wins, it's coming.

The thing about talking about women's rights here is you always get that reactionary cant implying that there is a finite amount of rights and if women get more, men get less. It's ridiculous, and insulting considering white males are at the top of the "food chain" in our culture and can certainly come together and organize to work for the changes they want, instead of whining on every feminst thread (especially with the argument that the draft negates any oppression women suffer...puleeze).

[Kanary]

104. So, all those women killed in Iraq are of no consequence?

Oh, yeah, because your verbal rule is they have to have been *forced* to be there.

THEY'RE JUST AS DEAD.

:nuke:

Kanary

[Pithlet]

141. The draft. Always. comes. up.

The fact that men have been drafted IN THE PAST does nothing to invalidate the subject of equality for women. I'm tired of this being dragged in whenever we discuss this on DU.

The draft was NOT a bias against men. The draft happened at a time when women were still considered the weaker sex, and this was considered common knowledge.

[China_cat]

151. I've been thinking about this one

Millions of american men have been killed or maimed while in FORCED combat while no woman has. (I realize some woman have died in wars but they were volunteers.) You may say that's just one example of bias against men but it's a damn big one.

And I realized that until the draft was discontinued, women weren't permitted to train for combat positions, even as volunteers, and had to fight in order to be allowed into that section of the military.

Women realized that by pushing to be allowed into combat that some day they would face the possibility of being drafted and they STILL fought for their right to kill (and be killed) alongside the men.

You minimize the women volunteers who have been killed in wars. I guess I shouldn't blame you too badly because our government has never recognized the women pilots who ferried bombers to the Pacific during WWII...without gunners or fighter escorts. The nurses have only recently been recognized for their contribution. Women who had more to do with combat death and maiming than the men they cared for.

So no, women haven't been -forced- into combat yet. But only because men kept them out.

[Hello_Kitty]

156. Women have been war casualties throughout history

Thousands of women died when we bombed Japan. Millions of women died in Nazi concentration camps and in Stalin's pogroms (not direct war casualties but as victims of maniacal militaristic regimes). Girls and women are often tortured and raped by military captors. This happened in the Balkan conflict and is happening in the Middle East and Africa as we speak. Only in places like America are we lucky enough to adopt this paternalistic attitude toward our female citizens where people can say "Oh, women don't have to experience war." Women in many other parts of the world are not so lucky.

[greekspeak]

10. The clothing "cages" have simply been replaced by other cages

Ok, so women can show their ankles without being trollopes. But do they get equal compensation for what they do? No.

Ok, so women don't have to wear around 50 pounds of cloth to cover their evil parts. But women are still treated like neurotic children.

Ok, so women don't have to live their lives in corsets so that a special piece of furniture is needed to catch them when they faint. But do they get the same opporunities in life men get? No.

I am glad that there is an organization like NOW that will fight for women.

[Nikia]

14. It is so true

I was a feminist when I was a teenager, but didn't know how true that stuff was until I got out of college. Maybe, I live in in a less enlightened part of the country genderwise, but there many things that I didn't think that I'd have to deal with. Sometimes, it makes me want to divorce my husband, convert to Catholicism and be a nun. It seems that I can't win at work, with not feminine enough or not professional enough. I can't wear the right thing at interviews, pants are butch and male interviewers seem to check me out while wearing a dress and assume that I am not up to the job. Even men who I thought were decent people look at most women as bodies. My husband seems alright except that he seems to have a conditioned aversion to most housework, reenforced by his parents "What do you mean you were doing laundry, doesn't she keep up on the laundry?". I do worry about having children though for that and societal reasons. Of course, some people, where I live and work, already seem to look down on me for not having children yet. Sadly, I don't think that we are moving in the right direction. People assume since there are anti discrimination laws that nothing more needs to be done.

[SarahB]

20. Ah, the whole other issue of female appearance.

I'm also a woman who would fit into (Western culture's anyway) image of standardized beauty probably, but what can that lead to? For me at times in life- objectification, sexual harassment, and a whole set of other things often basing a judgment of my personality or character based on external factors. I'm blessed to look fairly nice, but I don't necessarily want or need anyone's insight into or graphic details about liking features of my physical appearance unless I've indicated that I'm interested in a man and asked for it.

[China_cat]

30. I have had a big fight with a lot of so-called 'enlightened' men

because I made the observation that when you apply for a job, if you are a man, your resume gets looked at first. If you are a woman, your appearance is judged before anyone ever bothers with your qualifications.

Guys try to tell me that that 'just isn't true'. I wish they'd go for a job interview in drag sometime.

[FizzFuzz]

60. I'll never forget the thread I saw at the DU lounge

a guy talking about how he was incapable of interacting with women without thinking about sex. To quote him, he said, "If she's hot, I can't stop picturing her naked and if she's not hot, I can't stop thinking of someone who is." Then some laughing quip about being amazed he can respond at all to what the woman is saying. Many men replied to the thread to commiserate.

So, sisters, how does THAT make you feel?

[Tsiyu]

70. This is the Catch -22 that bothers me the most

Men who try to rationalize objectifying women ( "but I cain't HEP it, Ah'm a MAY-AN, an all wymmin is jest T&A to mah lizard brain") are in direct opposition to the fathers' rights advocates who claim they are as capable as women in raising children.

But if men are unable to communicate or work with females without "imagining every one naked" they should NEVER be allowed to have custody of female children. They should NEVER be allowed to be high school teachers or coaches or pediatricians or involved in supervising females.

You can't have it both ways, dudes.

[Nikia]

74. It makes me sort of uncomfortable

Unfortunately, I think many guys who I work around and interact socially with think of most women this way. One might believe that when they are commenting on the appearance of almost every woman who they come in contact with. My husband says that many guys his age are like that. When I was younger, I didn't think that it was that way at all. Now that I realize that it is, it makes me uncomfortable and upset.

[smirkymonkey]

98. Kind of pissed off that I am straight.

It seems almost like a curse in some ways.

[FizzFuzz]

109. LOL! yes a "sleeping with the enemy" kind of feeling

I'm bi, and I can say that it can be wierd having piggish reactions when a woman walks by who appeals to my personal preferences. I slobber and drool and then ask myself, "Self! What is up with you, er, me? How can you be a feminist and such a lecherous pig??" But it's also part of what makes me so exquisitely sensitive to sexual trivializations of women. I guess. Or something.

It is also wierd, entrancing, enculturated to seek male attention. Less so now, but it was pretty bad before. Once again, "Self! Now you just raise your..uh, my.. consciousness right now!"

And yeah, sometimes I think, geez it sure would be nice to just get away to a lesbian separatist oasis.

Oh hell, I've been pissed off about how girls are viewed as idiots and less-than since I was 5.

[smirkymonkey]

118. I sometimes react to men that way, but in a strange way, although

lust is involved, I sometimes think ogling is more about power, which is all confusingly tangled up with sexual issues.

However, unlike many men, I don't feel the need to share my lascivious fantasies with my opposite sex companions - unless they are gay of course. I think the only reason I would share it would be to have some kind of impact on the other person, or feel a sense of power over them, like - "see how easily I can objectify you".

It is kind of a sleeping with the enemy kind of thing, which is probably why I have been abstinent for a long time.

[FizzFuzz]

121. yes, excersizing some kind of power is right. I agree

And that is why I never intrude my oogling into someone's life.

I've had that happen to me though...couple of times where a male aquaintance "shared" his crush on me in a lascivious way. Well guess what, ol' enlightened feminist here squealed with delight.."oooh! attention!" In my defence (for being so frickin dense), I was in an emotional crisis both times, which they targeted, as all predators do. It was very much a power thing by two disordered personalities, whose intents were manipulation and control, not attraction.

I recently started getting to know another woman who has also been celibate for a long time because she is also just too enraged at the patriarchy thing.

Well, I've been online way too long. That was about my last coherent thought.

night!

[buddhamama]

15. not much has changed

i don't 'feel' saddened just for women either when i see how little has changed. equality, human rights is an universal issue, one that effects every single person.

[jcappy]

16. re-inventing the wheel

there have been feminists and radical feminists in all eras, but there message gets co-opted, distorted, deleted, inverted, commercialized, silenced... the beat goes on. patriarchy is just so powerful that it never really gets budged by these feminist uprisings--even by the potent one of the 1970s.

we men can start just by boycotting all these hot babe posts and polls on this board--and write it down at each of these thread that you are doing this. remember--the left joins the right when it comes to sexism (to left women=objects, to right women=angels) no diff

[Ripley]

17. Wow, you catch on quick.

Your observation of the "hot babe posts" here on DU. Yet whenever women complain about sexists posts here we're told to:

Lighten Up!

[jcappy]

24. sexism compounded

oh yeah, men have hughe pocketfuls of techniques to keep women in their place--this one is as old as patriarchy. if the initial put down gets noticed, try another.... trivializing you and your response

keep saying the same whenevere possible---------it chips away at male power and unites you to all women and to those men who ally themselves to women

[smirkymonkey]

45. You are such a breath of fresh air!

I am so happy to know that men like you can see and understand this without feeling threatened.

To me, that is part of being a "real man", the ability to think without having your ego always at the forefront.

[cally]

19. Welcome, welcome, WELCOME to DU!!!

I'm so glad you are here! Thanks for your post!

[jcappy]

25. Thank you!! N/T

[Bill McBlueState]

21. Why is it sexist to say a woman is hot?

Most women I know take that as a compliment.

[skygazer]

26. Because it is usually said as if that's the only thing that matters

about her.

Example - I was once sitting with a guy watching the news and Hillary Clinton was on talking quite intelligently about some political or legal thing or another. It was something topical and important and the guy I was with turned to me and said, "She's hot. I'd do her."

Now that was the one and only thing he saw - a woman who he'd like to "do". The fact that she was discussing important issues, the fact that she is intelligent and capable meant absolutely nothing. She's just a hot woman he'd like to "do".

[Bill McBlueState]

35. agreed about the Hillary comment

I agree, there are plenty of ways to comment on a woman's physical appearance (or a man's; it can go both ways) that are degrading.

But many of the "hot babe" posts on DU are on the other end of the spectrum. When AAR got started, there was a lot of admiration of Janeane Garofalo, primarily because of her insight and tact on her show, but secondarily because, well, she's a cutie.

Progressives can admire physical beauty, too!

[SarahB]

37. I agree.

It's not too hard to tell a decent man from a misogynist. Decent, feminist men can love women and find them attractive physically and say, "Wow, she's a beautiful woman!" (or something along those lines), but when it's "She's hot, I'd like to bang her." that's something entirely different. It's disrespectful.

[Rich Hunt]

87. I dunno

Any guy who is willing to admit he finds Hillary Clinton attractive is not following the anti-feminist party line. And she's an older woman. I remember my dad once saying he found her attractive - I don't think he meant that in a purely objectifying way. It's nicer than people who only like those who are 20-30 years younger.

That doesn't bother me - I've said it about guys.

[lakemonster11]

123. About the Hilary comment

I agree that his comment was problematic, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that he was a chauvinist pig.

I wasn't there, so I don't know the guy or the context or how he said it, but I can see his comment either being chauvinistic or sincerely admiring. I mean, I know lots of women who say the same thing about Bill Clinton. In fact, I think I remember a thread here on DU after his speech at the DNC where that sentiment was repeated almost word for word by men and women of every sexual persuasion. It's not that he's particularly "hot" physically (though of course he's nice looking), but that he's smart, well-spoken, and extremely charismatic.

Of course, the big difference is that there are very different traditional "definitions" of attractiveness for men and women. Since women are traditionally prized mainly for their physical characteristics, it could be that most of the time people only say a woman is hot when she's very physically attractive. Because men, on the other hand, are traditionally found attractive for qualities like intelligence and success, they might be called hot for what one might consider more flattering reasons.

Still, I think a lot of people express their admiration for political figures in sexual terms---and their dislike, for that matter. I'm not saying that that's always okay, but I do think that one should be aware that seemingly sexual comments might not mean what they seem to mean.

[Iris]

139. and also implies that what you think is "hot"

is of upmost importance and if a woman doesn't measure up, she's worthless.

[Nikia]

27. It is sexist to view women as just or mainly bodies

Women are more than our appearance or bodies. For example, when I go to work or when I go shopping my main purpose is not to be sexual entertainment for the men there. I suppose this is might seem confusing. Yes, women want to be judged as attractive. Most women, especially those who are out there accomplishing something political or other important achievements, don't want to be judged as a body. When you look at a woman and see her as a body who you'd like to f* rather than a person, that is sexist.

[China_cat]

33. I've heard it said that women

are more than just life support systems for tits and ass.

[Bill McBlueState]

36. yes

"When you look at a woman and see her as a body who you'd like to f* rather than a person, that is sexist."

That sums it up pretty well. There's room for admiring physical beauty, but some guys are "progressive" about it and others are just stupid.

[LWolf]

128. Exactly.

I matured early. At 12, I "passed" easily for 16. And I was "hot" because I had large breasts and the rest of me was slender. By the time I actually reached 16 I learned that:

No male peers would ever "like" me because of who I was. I was a "trophy." A "trophy" who was expected to "put out" so that they could brag about it; and if I didn't, they'd brag anyway.

I was not safe around grown men, either. Including my mother's boyfriend. Who told her that I was "teasing" him, and that the conflict/tension was because he didn't respond. I tried to tell her about the groping. She believed him.

As a married woman, I dressed plainly; my 1st husband wanted it that way. He didn't want anyone gaping at the goods. And he assumed that every male who caught site of me wanted a piece.

When that marriage went south, and I became single again, I discovered that way too many male colleagues were avidly interested in my life as a single woman, and wanted to "help." "Dating" had evolved into a euphemism for "buy her dinner and a movie so she'll put out."

When I remarried, my new husband, whom I'd known since the age of 7, assured me that he didn't care about fashion, just me. He encouraged the no make-up, no hair color, etc., and I found that I loved it. He didn't seem to care that I was not a fashion plate, or that I was graying before he was. Until he approached his 40th birthday; I was traded in for a newer, more fashionable model.

These days, as a single 44 year old grandmother, I still don't do make-up, hair color, heels, or any clothing that is not comfortable and easy to deal with. My hair is kept up and out of my way; it would be better off short, but I don't want to sacrifice my precious free time getting frequent haircuts. I'm clean, neat, and utilitarian. I don't look bad, but I'm not "hot" any more. I'm a 44 year-old grandmother. The sad thing is that my women friends aren't comfortable with me the way I am. They worry about me. They are either constantly offering fashion "advice," which constantly says that they still think my value lies in my looks, or they don't say anything at all until the day I decide to let my hair down for a day or something, then they light up and gush all over the place about how great I look, etc., which still tells me that they think my value lies in my looks. My friends, who haven't gained enough self-esteem in their own middle age to see the person instead of the decoration.

[UpsideDownFlag]

28. just as long as we don't have a repeat of the 'sex wars' threads...

of this summer, then it's all good.

[FizzFuzz]

64. Please look at my comment, number 60

I feel a little funny saying "see my important post", but I hope you will look. Its about a thread here at DU Lounge and it settles the question of whether or not it is a compliment to a woman, to be thought of as hot.

As other women are saying in response to you, it illustrates the fact that too many men don't have any interest in women as faceted human beings, but only as objects into which they may or may not be interested in inserting their pee-pees. Not too complimentary to hotties and not too complimentary to not-so-hotties.

It also automatically disqualifies all women for this dubious esteem once the natural ageing process sets in.

[Kanary]

110. Why, WMass astronomer???

How 'bout cuz it only means that she has value according to her looks, and that means, she only has value in what you see in her.

You may not like a particular man, but he has value because of his skills, knowledge, etc.

A woman only has value if she meets your standards of appearance.

Y'know, I'm sure you could figure this out, if you were willing to actually *LISTEN* to women.

Consider them human beings, as seperate people from you, and you will be able to figure it out.

Kanary

[Dastard Stepchild]

115. I'd love it if you called my Masters Degree hot...

that could get the heart a' thumpin. But the tired "yer hot" line is otherwise not that interesting.

(edited ironically for a typo)

[Misunderestimator]

23. Thank you!

[kayell]

31. Welcome to DU! It's nice to see another guy who "gets it"

:hi:

[FizzFuzz]

67. wow I'm impressed! so rare to see a man who believes in feminism.

How did you come to the understanding you have? I'm more used to men (some women too.) making light of it, like relegating discussions about sexism to the "annoying sex wars" heap.

[jcappy]

75. blush, blush

by noting the father's treatment of my mom
by sensing sexism and racism in almost every daily occurence
by reading radical feminist and feminist books
by learning the history of patriarchy and war
by joining a few (there ain't many) male anti-sexist groups

the only hard thing about it is that many of the positions i'm convinced about are now either rejected outright or deemed the ravings of a rightwing moralist. in other words, i have to take a bit of the crap---and ISOLATION that actual feminists must endure.

[FizzFuzz]

85. very very interesting!

it's a wonder what causes various people to go in different ways.

Its pretty common to grow up with a father who treats his wife like garbage, and its unavoidable pretty much to grow up surrounded by racism and sexism. However, its pretty rare to see it and repudiate it. For some reason, and this is just my "gut feeling", its even harder to see and refuse to play the sexism crap than it is the racism crap. Just from my observations that racist behaviors get pointed out and criticized, whereas pointing out sexism will often get you dissed.

Welcome to DU! :D

[jcappy]

108. In full agreement

"For some reason, and this is just my "gut feeling", its even harder to see and refuse to play the sexism crap than it is the racism crap. Just from my observations that racist behaviors get pointed out and criticized, whereas pointing out sexism will often get you dissed."

Yes. This is my gut feeling too. In fact, the only reason I mentioned "racism" in the above response (not necessary in this context) is because i think it makes me more acceptable--even in this thread. ---Like... hey look this guy's not really so strange... his anti-sexism is a mere extension of his anti-racism... now, that sounds reasonable-- It's kinda like no one--woman or man--has a right to put women first. When the truth pretty certainly is that the model for all oppressions is the oppression of women (steady for 4,000 years).

Oh yes, it is so much easier to point out racist behavior or racism in this society than it is sexist behavior or sexism. It's not even in the same ballpark. It's almost like the former acts as a break from the latter.

[FizzFuzz]

119. I wanted to reply to some points I liked, but got distracted

and now I am too tired. But the impression that no-one has the right to put women first, I thought that was pretty perceptive.

Must...log..off.....compu..ter.......

*klunk*

[jdj]

91. I think there is a separate issue here and that is western culture's

outlook on sexuality, influenced by 5-12,000 years of patrilinealist religion (depending on who you ask).

I'm a bi-sexual who called myself lesbian for a decade (now I just say queer) and I don't object to talking about physical attibutes of men or women if it is done in an way that doesn't antagonize or demean members, cause this isn't a workplace.

I don't know, I just think that middle class white feminism hasn't gotten it right with regards to sexuality, and that's just cause of the culture the movers and the shakers of the movement grew up in. I don't have the answers. I will say that I do believe there are many trolls here and one of the ways they disrupt is through misogynistic posting, because it's so effective in that it keeps feminist DUers feeling bewildered. There are assaultive and non-assaultive ways of talking about stuff like that, so when someone is repeatedly assaultive about it I just assume they are a troll.

[Kanary]

107. Rather than "boycotting" posts, jcappy, I would request that

you speak up.

We women do, but men can support it, also. In Berkeley in the 60's, it was enlightened men who helped tremendously, and still do with the anti-rape efforts. We need to work together on this.

And, thanks.

Kanary

[Misunderestimator]

22. Scarily as accurate today as 30 years ago.

[Cleita]

32. Yep, we haven't come a long way baby,

and unfortunately the gains we did make that women enjoy today aren't even appreciated by the younger women who have benefitted from them. They think those rights have always been there.

Today our young women's public role models are doormats like Laura Bush and Maria Shriver. I can hardly wait for Teresa to become First Lady, then she and former First Lady Hillary Clinton can provide better role models for our young girls.

[kayell]

34. Wow, by the time I dragged up the right words, you posted them

[Cleita]

43. Maybe I was channeling you.

;)

[CrispyQ]

40. Their other role models are pelvis grinding sluts like

Brittany, Christina, etc.

I'm appalled that young women in their teens are getting breast enhancement surgery. I think many of today's young women & men believe that breasts are meant to perch on your chest like the halves of a grapefruit & never move with the rest of your body. Scary.

[Cleita]

42. Many men have said that they don't care if they are phony.

So are all men this shallow?

[Iris]

50. NO! But it is learned behavior,

so if we don't teach young men any better, at some point they all could be.

[jdj]

92. to me, that is offensive

"pelvis grinding sluts"

these performers are the proof that feminism HAS taken root in this country.

these young women are young, sexual beings, they are in the prime of their life and fertility, and they are genetically programmed to behave exactly as they are behaving, to express their sexuality openly, or represent it for a generation. The crowning of a May Queen was an important rite in ancient cultures, and the fact that some ancient religion had "temple prostitutes" show you how they had a much healthier view of sexuality. The idea that openly expressed female sexuality is bad or unnatural is in no way innate to the human species but is a developement from thousands of years of male oppression.

[FizzFuzz]

101. that is a very interesting response.

I am really going to have to think about this one because its a viewpoint I haven't really looked at.

I admit, I DO have a kind of knee-jerk reaction to the excess of public attention focused on T$A. It pisses me off, because it is so over-weighted. Always feels to me like women's many other abilities get overlooked. The boob factor is always of prime importance. I always think that if it weren't always one way, if women were able to get taken seriously when they are being serious, then I would be less angry at the trivializations.

At my work, I see the effects frequently, with college girls in their classes dressing for professional presentations like the women we see magnified on TV. Role models that say, "WOMEN! you may be a lawyer, but your only power lies in how sexily you wear that business suit!" So I watch these little girls dressed like sluts, or in fun fluffy little party-at-the-club frocks, making their presentations. I see people squirming to try to listen respectfully, but I catch alot of interesting reactions from the audience, and I think gee, when they get in the work world, will they "get it" that no one is gonna be listening to their ass kicking plan because they're too busy staring at the body parts falling out of fabrically-challenged outfits?

A British TV show I happened to see once really hit me with a realization (and I rarely watch TV, almost never, so it was lucky I happened onto this). It was a detective show. The main character was a middle aged, ordinary looking woman. There was another ordinary looking woman who worked with her. And more amazingly, this premise was NOT presented as a gimmick. She was tough, but not in the heavy-handedly obvious American way of ohhlooky-here at this tough broad! and she's not even pretty!!, they didn't need to "balance her off" with a ditzy Fredericks-of-Hollywood wearing chick assistant. She was just a top detective running her department and figuring out the investigations. It was so different from American fare that it took some getting used to!! Is was weird to see a show with NO women licking their glossy lips as they do their job!!!

So, that's my deconstruction of media role models for young women. Hmm, maybe the difference is that in the entertainer scenario that you're talking about, it IS a sexualized atmosphere, why shouldn't young women get to enjoy their hormones. I think what MY objection is, is that this sexualized image has become an expectation for all women, and in inappropriate places. It ends up not being freeing, but being harmful because the important corollary--women shouldn't HAVE to be sexual to be paid attention to--is missing.

Oh another objection about the sexually free female entertainer I have is this: Women MUST be hot to succeed. Their actual talent is secondary. Ugly guys can make it if they work hard, (or know the right people) and have talent in a way that their female counterpart rarely if ever can. What makes this more sad of course, is that mostly, the woman's job is dependent on that energy of sexual ripeness, so that regardless of talent, she is in big trouble once that relatively short period of peak attractiveness is over.

That's my take anyway. I'm just throwing out opinions and observations here that I've formed over quite a few years.

I dunno. Maybe I am looking only at one side. Your opinion?

[Cleita]

105. I have an opinion.

I really didn't know how to answer the post you answered, and I started thinking that yes we shouldn't call girls who make money from sex, pelvis grinding sluts. On the other hand, what is Brittany going to do once the bloom is off?

I think a lot of our pretty young women who make early money because they are pretty and hot shouldn't be criticized for it, but they do need to worry about what will happen when they become increasingly ordinary and another adolescent arrives to take up their place in the sexy and hot department.

I do know that the woman who was in the background and had to work harder will rise to be the manager and beyond after Brittany is long gone birthing babies and becoming a soccer mom. Of course Brittany doesn't have to worry. She made her money, but the young women who worked at Hooters and other places while they were hot and looking at Brittany as a role model, will have to find out that. Maybe they will regret not learning how to do something that will serve them through life.

[FizzFuzz]

112. banking on looks

as you say, pretty young women who make money off it shouldn't be criticized for it, especially because like the porn business, it is one of the few ways females can earn powerful money like a man. (I think I read somewhere that porn is the only industry where women outearn men.) And as you point out so well, there are few Brittanys, but many Hooters girls. Not such powerful money there, but powerful influences on how she feels about herself, I daresay.

Sadly, it is so very conditioned into us to criticize these girls. Geez, I do it myself, and I should know better! At the same time, it infuriates me in the same way that Uncle Tom-ing pisses off black people or as Deaf street beggars handing out fingerspelling cards pisses off Deaf people.

But as someone else here said, that's the key to patriarchy. Catch 22.

[CrispyQ]

135. I'm sorry that offended you. Perhaps I was a bit harsh.

The issue is that our society places it's value of a woman on her sexuality. As women get older, our culture views them as non-sexual beings & they are no longer valued. I am approaching that point in my life -- more rapidly than I would like -- & it's somewhat disturbing. I'm smart, articulate, I have a great marriage & good friends. I have a great job, I do volunteer work for a local wildlife shelter, but I can begin to see an almost dismissive attitude toward me in my other dealings with people, such as clerks, doctors. It doesn't matter if you are an engaging, personable multi-dimensional older woman, our society doesn't equate older women with sexuality & therefore it doesn't value them. If you are a young woman, you won't appreciate or recognize this until it happens to you.

Another issue is the conditioning of young men to view women as sexual objects. If they do not have good relationship role models -- especially a good relationship between their primary adult caretakers - a loving relationship of give & take, of equality, of appreciation of differences, a complimentary relationship, I think they are more prone to view woman as objects.

I'm sorry if I was unduly harsh on young women. My criticism is really more all encompassing & includes the world view of both genders in our society. We need to get past this competitive mind think -- patriarch vs matriarch, man vs. woman. We need to work together and take advantage of our complimentary differences!

[jdj]

145. interesting but misleading language.

from your post:

our society places it's value of a woman
our culture views them
our society doesn't equate older women
therefore it doesn't value them


It's a male (i.e. it's gender specific, the 'culture' isn't doing any of the action) perspective/point of view that is forced down our throats because of thousands of years of influence of Judeo-Christian culture.

But sexual attractiveness is a power in this world, and kudos to any young woman who uses hers to earn her dime in it. It is a commodity, and it is a God-given one that we own, so women who take advantage of it in some way, good for them. Sex and sexuality are not going anywhere despite the efforts of religion, which is just politicized spirituality with one goal, to control the succession of DNA from one generation to the next, (so of course the foundation stone of western and middle-eastern religions is oppression of female sexuality and sexual freedom and choice). I don't think for a minute pornography and prostitution will go anywhere if feminism takes root the world over, I just think there will be decriminalization, and fewer and fewer male pimps, and fewer and fewer women having to admit that "I've made people (men) millions of dollars" as I recently heard Pam Anderson say as she was defending working on her own projects.

I am 36 and beleive me, age is encroaching. (Has encroached..?)I'm sad about the loss of my youthful appearance and sometimes I wish there was a support group to go to to talk about what a huge loss this is, and I don't just think it is women that suffer from it. My feelings are exclusive of any job-related issues, though, they have to do with my self-confidence, my feeling of a loss of power. I understand now the hate vibes I used to feel from older women when I was young; my goal through getting older is to not direct my sadness at this significant loss at young women for the beauty they have, but just to wish them well, that they enjoy what they have, and protect themselves and make wise choices. And by God, if anyone makes money off of their bodies and their looks, let it be THEM. (they can take their own video camera to the beach if they want to "go wild" and sell the pics on their own website.)

[MUSTANG_2004]

167. Yes, you have

My scientist father (WWII vet) never worked for a woman. Ever. However, I've reported to women more often than men (I'm in the IT field). To say women haven't come a long way is ridiculous.

[Iris]

49. I'd add - if we can't cope with or don't want a pregnancy, we're made

to feel guilty about abortion AND adoption.

Many lower-class women believe adoption and abortion are equally bad moral choices.

[Cleita]

58. Back in my day, this was the world I entered into.

Women were expected to be virgins when they married. The boys were expected to have experience, with whom I don't know if all the girls were virgins. No over-the-counter birth control was available except condoms and only adults could buy them. You had to go up to a pharmacist and ask for them. If you looked too young they ID'd you. Married women could get a diaphragm.

If an unmarried girl got pregnant, she was often forced to marry the father even though the marriage would often only last through the birth so the baby wouldn't be "illegitimate". If not, then they went to a home in another city for unwed mothers where they were "strongly encouraged" to put the baby up for adoption.

Some girls opted for an illegal abortion. Many women died or were mutilated because of them. Many doctors, who performed illegal therapeutic abortions because they felt it was the right thing to do or often for the money, risked going to jail.

Girls did those above things because a woman who kept her "illegitimate" child was condemned to a life of ostracization and poverty. A few of them braved the odds like a very dear life long friend of mine, a victim of rape, who raised her child alone against many odds. She never married.

[Iris]

72. You'd think these stories will be enough, but I'm convinced

there are people who vote for Republicans b/c they accept this sort of ill-treatment as someone's lot in life. ("God has a plan" dontcha know?)

There are a lot of people in the income bracket of $20,000 or LESS who vote for Bush b/c they don't believe in social justice, even when it comes to their own person or their family members. Pregnant with a deformed child? Just deal with it. It's your burden to bear and don't, under any circumstances, even consider the fact that society or the government should help you. Sure, maybe your church will hand you a few crumbs, but if that's all you get, well, that's just the way it is. (Oh, my! Now I'm heading into Bruce Hornsby song territory!)

[SarahB]

73. I don't think most women my age understand what it was like.

I was fortunate to get my hands on feminist literature and writings in my teens (back in the mid to late 80's) and learned a lot about a lot. The world is better by far, but there's a certain vigilance and consciousness to be maintained or we could lose what we have gained.

[Cleita]

77. Yes, and you guys are going to have to do it and

convince the women your age and younger that this is a serious matter. Let's face it, the rest of us who started this battle for equality are getting to old to burn our bras anymore. Our saggy boobs need them.

[Malva Zebrina]

65. Yes, I remember that

and my belief is that religion supports a lot of it. Although today we have a lot more women serving congregations as ministers, where before that was the purvue of men, I believe that religion hampers progress for women. I know this may not be popular, but it is my point of view at this time, coming from at least the time of WWII.

We have made great strides. My grandmother had fifteen children. Yes that is right and was poor. She was raped by a priest and sued and won and was able to provide a home with that money. I cannot say if she resented having that many children or not because we were not at all close and I know little of her.

Now we have birth control methods (pills) and condoms readily available. We had to fight like a caged animals against religious church ladies protesting in the streets, screaming and hollaring about it--much like the right to life now that is sanctioned by religion. We have had to fight like caged animals against religion and it's paternalistic sway over women because, well because the bible or the Pope or some misogynistic preacher says so and the sad part of it is that women inevitably are their own worst enemy and buy the damn thing. So I think there is a lot more to do re women's self esteem.

But, a combination of circumstances helped us out on the birth control pill and no longer do we see the church ladies protesting in the streets against the slut sinners who use birth control. Women KNOW what is the best for them and their families as a rule. They thumbled their noses at the Pope.

Economics also played a big part in keeping down the size of a family. Now we still are fighting to get the morning after pill readily available to help women avoid a pregnancy and now we STILL are fighting like caged animals to get RU487 used as a common and safe method of aborting, despite the fact that it has been used in Eurpor for more than ten years, and is safe.

We have had to fight like caged animals for every inch of the right to control our own lives and our own bodies.

It is generally forgotten and was for a while after WWII, that women wore pants to go to work (Rosy the Riverter)becasue skirts were too dangerous--get caught in machinery etc. The fact that women did most of the work in those munitions factories to supply the war front, was the beginning of the women's movement, actually.

Talking too much and getting too wordy

Thanks for this thread.

[hecate77]

71. Oh so verily true, even more so today

I think that the cause of Women's rights has actually gone backwards since then. I remember those heady days when we were winning rights, only to see them slowly eroded ever since by Nixon, then Reagan and then the Bushes and even under Clinton due to the Repug congress.

We didn't get the Equal Rights Amendment. Women still get only about 70% of what men get. Women are not well represented on faculties. Women are not well represented in government. Abortion/Women's health care is under the greatest attack since Roe v Wade. Gays and Lesbians are under increasing attack. The chrisitian mafia holds even more women as slaves and thralls than it did in the 70s.

So, it is appropriate and more so.

1960s Anti-war/Peace Activist
1970s Women's and Lesbian rights activist
1980s Women's and Lesbian rights activist
1990s Alternate religions activist plus all the above
2000s Scared as all hell.

[slinkerwink]

78. that hardly anything has changed

[Tsiyu]

79. What we can all do

There are ways to erode the entrenched patriarchy/sexism.

1) Teach your daughters about their bodies, about saying "no"

When my daughter was approaching puberty, she and her female cousins started the "Amazon Club." Their motto came from a Johnny Bravo cartoon: "You get NOTHING and you LIKE it." I taught them all how to say a very forceful "NO to any behavior, talk, etc they found uncomfortable. ( Gee, what if Elizabeth's Smart's dad had taught her these skills rather than that "submit to men" crap?)

2) Teach your SONS how to respect women. Challenge any sexist comment they make. Explain to them why sexism is wrong and how it harms them. Explain pregnancy and the inherent risks for women. Explain birth control and STDs and let them know they will be harrassed and ridiculed for defending girls, but to think of their mothers or their sisters if they believe it's not worth the sacrifice. I spent years reiterating to my five sons that if they ever got a girl pregnant and refused to take responsibility, if they ever strike a female, if they ever abandon their responsiblity or treat women like crap, I personally will kick their asses into the next millenium. My end quote always: "I will NOT sit across from your wives/girlfriends at the dinner table and have them glare at me because I raised assholes."

3) Refuse to join in when women are run down at work, school, in the community.

Stop using words like "slut," "whore," "bitch," and when someone used one of these words to describe a woman, ask them to elaborate. "What did you mean by that?" Stop gossiping about neighbors, commenting on what other women wear, how they keep their homes, what they drive, how they earn a living. Support fellow women at work and "have their back."

4) Stop sleeping with married men, stop enabling all the piss-poor behavior that should have been eradicated a generation ago. Treat other women as you would wish to be treated.

5) Speak up when there is obvious sexism in your midst. Silence breeds more evil.

[FizzFuzz]

102. you rock!

:D

[ismnotwasm]

81. Words that still ring true

I picked a traditional "women's" role, nursing for a career fairly late in life--my early thirties. I have been gratified to watch nursing evolved and change, throw off many of the shackles imposed by it being a profession dominated by women. It's definitely a profession that needs to change from within, with women as the catalyst for change-- although the coming of male nursing has helped. I started reading feminist literature as a teenager, and that alone has helped me shape my life, gotten me out of the consequences of life choices that were destructive to my feminine, as well as human, self. The result? I'm physically and mentally tough, I have an agile mind. I know I can change things, and I know I don't have to accept any shit. This is a direct result of the feminist women who made sacrifices before me, left the doors of opportunity open for me to walk through. I try to have patience with women who don't understand this, especially ones in jobs they would have been laughed out of the interview office thirty years ago, but it's hard. As for silly, ignorant or hurtful comments men make on this message board about women,I don't post often enough to get drawn in. But out here in the skin would, I generally am gentle but firm, but I can scorch the bark off a tree at fifty feet verbally if that's what it takes. Plus, as a physical fitness freak, I'm usually am in better shape, at my age. Men find that intimidating for some reason. Honor and great thanks to those sisters who have gone before me, and if you're weary, I, and others are here, and we'll carry you along, Change is still happening! And the dream is still alive

[FizzFuzz]

113. Yah!!

Boo-Yah!!!

(heh heh, I've always wanted to say that)

:D :toast:

[SoCalDem]

82. That "we haveN'T come a long way, baby "

It's too bad, but as long a MEN control the important things, it will NEVER really change.

[jdj]

93. After reading these posts, I have to say

I'm not as hopeless.

I feel ALOT has changed, I'm 36, and I know of many changes in my lifetime.

It may be that men have to be brought to the point of accepting that they have certain innate genetic behaviors, and then more learned behaviors later (or coping mechanisms) that they used to deal with the power of female sexuality and their fear of women.

I think these are suppressed because religion has given us a "second-sex" slot, so men's behavior has never really been scrutized, and certainly not self-scrutized. Maybe it is time. I really think this is the motivation for the misogyny of male artists like Eminem who absorb the patrilineal one-up status in childhood, and then are all of a sudden running head-on into these brave new world women that feminism created, who are nothing like they were supposed to be.

[smirkymonkey]

99. One thing that HAS changed...

Here on DU, women are unapologetically speaking up!! I have been here for a while and in the beginning, whenever I commented on so much of the sexist dreck posted here I would get attacked by many of the men and very, very few women would chime in to support me or other women who challenged this crap.

I have seen a lot a great women who had so much to contribute to the political/social discourse leave this board in disgust. Now it seems as though many of us have stayed to fight - not against men, but against sexism - instead of leaving out of frustration and rage.

I think we are going to see more of this in the outside world as well. Many women are getting to the point that they would rather take the risk of offending sexist jerks (note, I did not say men, because I think there are many real men who are not threatened by female equality) than to swallow their outrage at having their humanity diminished in myriad ways.

[SarahB]

111. Here here.

I think real men can also understand that a woman can be beautiful or sexual or any of those things that go along with being a women that men may really, really like a lot, yet are still very much a multifaceted human being as well. :)

[Kanary]

124. Your assessment is correct. On the other hand, it's been OVER 30 YEARS

now that we've fought these battles, and at that time, there was *less* crap from men than there is now on DU. *THAT'S* what I find so frustrating and exasperating. Thirty goddamn years, and here we are.

All one has to do is to think of the same sexist behavior at DU transposed to another setting. THe one I keep brining up is a campaign office. I know of NO woman who would tolerate being spoken to in a campaign office the way women are spoken to ( and spoken about) here. It would be termed a "hostile environment" in an office. No campaign could get women volunteers if they were treated as they are here.

I cannot for the life of me understand why the hell it's allowed.

If I were to say something similar about gays as we get about women, I'd be banned outright.

Something is very wrong.

Kanary

[SarahB]

133. There are personal relationships here....

That has something to do with it. I have a few male (and female) friends here that I have met and a few that I'm friendly with but not met, and perhaps one where we have both shared a lot of stuff about our lives, etc. I'm comfortable enough with some of them to have a little "mutually humorous banter" at times in the Lounge, but there's a line of respect I wouldn't want crossed either. If someone crosses it, I let them know. However, if it's someone I don't know in any way, the line is probably at a different place. Plus, every woman has different experiences and feelings about this stuff and that is very much her right and she deserves respect for her feelings.

[Lorien]

122. Painfully true

After working in corporate America for decades (and making less than the boys I've trained-yet getting tougher assignments than any of them), being single, childless and opinionated, I would have to say yes, nothing has changed. I would NOT have chosen to be a woman if given the choice-it really is a lose-lose existence, for the most part.

[Jose Diablo]

127. I feel nothing at all

Should I feel something about this quote?

[SarahB]

129. There are no "shoulds".

It either strikes you or it doesn't. I'm curious though as to why you would reply if it doesn't mean anything to you. Why expend the energy?

[Tsiyu]

130. Really! Hope that wasn't too much exertion

for those fingers...

This has been THE most enlightening, flame-proof sexism thread ever on DU since I've been here.

Thank you, :)Sarah Belle, for opening up this interesting conversation. May we have many more!

Cheers

:toast:

[SarahB]

131. You're welcome.

I'm kind of glad it turned out that way myself. Phew! :D

I don't think understanding difficulties, challenges, or sensitivities women face as women needs to put men and women in adversarial places. I love many males in my life, but I think at the same time having an awareness of where we are going and where we have been is something important for both genders to see.

[SarahB]

132. edit- dupe

[Tsiyu]

134. Our survival depends upon it.

With the exception of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, nations are poorest and most violent where women have the fewest rights. It's simply not good form to relegate "women's issues" to some slush pile of concerns. "Women's Issues" are everyone's issues because women give birth to and nurture and raise men to adulthood, too.


Many men cannot get past what is expected of them by their peers. Women fall into the same trap. We label and categorize and sort humans, each other, in ways that diminish and dismiss. Black, white, skinny, fat, slut, frigid, tease, whore, goody two-shoes, crazy, militant, wallflower, butch, lady, tramp, blah blah blah.

What the labels say is that the person doing the labeling views humans as one-dimensional things. And one-dimensional things don't need much of anything.

Want a fun statistic? Do a daily tally of women killed by boyfriends or exes or spouses in the US. Say for a month. It will open your eyes to the Most Silent War.

[jdj]

148. I think those two fit as well

if you have a tiny percentage of the country consisting of an inbred overclass, and the rest of the country is poor and terrified, and they are driven to export their violence as terrorism and driven into religious fanaticism then that counts.

[Tsiyu]

152. True enough

When I bring up this phenomenon ( subjugation of women=high poverty/violence rates) people always point to the Saudis and Kuwaitis. Though it as as you say in those nations, folks equate massive wealth in the hands of the few as equal to a nation's wealth on the whole..

[xequals]

142. The main reason feminism failed is denial of human nature.

Men and women are biologically different, especially when it comes to our psychological makeups; we approach sex in completely different ways.

For women, sex is not a constant need and doesn't affect every facet of their thinking. Men can't even begin to understand how or why women think of sex as a special --almost spiritual-- experience. We can't understand why women aren't sexually enticed simply by the physical appearance of the male (for example, a big penis), and don't want to have as much sex as possible. For women, good sex is like a fine meal in an expensive restaurant, to be savored and cherished.

For men, sex is a constant and powerful need: a "controlled" obsession which affects every facet of our thinking. Women can't even begin to understand why men would think about sex with so many different women: with the women on TV, the women we see on the street, the women we see in the office, i.e. most of the non-family women in our lives. And we think in terms of body parts -- not personalities. For men, good sex is like an all-you-can-eat smorgasborg; a delicious variety to be sampled and indulged.

Men and women are equal, but approach life in completely different ways.

Until we as a society start to understand that there are natural differences between the sexes which are rooted in evolution and not simply culture, this situation will get worse before it gets better.

[Pithlet]

144. No. The main reason feminism failed

Is because men run the show, and always have. Feminists don't get much media exposure, even today, and when they do they are portrayed as man-hating nuts. The fact that you've bought into the myth that feminists won't ever acknowledge our differences speaks to that. The differences, rather real or perceived or influenced by culture, have never been the point.

[jdj]

146. Um, excuse me people, but, feminism did not fail.

Maybe it's because I grew up in a strict religious home, but I can see myriad changes in society because of feminism, and I am immensely grateful for every one of my foremothers over the last 150 years of the feminist movement in this country that has given her blood, sweat and tears to the cause.

If men truly have this sexual obsession that you outline, and know it full well, perhaps men might want to ask themselves how such an obsession might affect their behavior and decision making and if they might possibly not be the best candidates to run the show having said obsession bearing down upon them every second of the day. It's your assertion, I'm just sayin'...

All it will take is women losing Roe to wake up the next generation of feminists. Women are enrolling in college now at a higher rate than men, so there is one feather in the cap of feminism. I, too, believe a significant number of our drives, both collectively and individually, derive from a "boys against girls" battle over who gets the power in choosing a mate and therefore determining which DNA will survive another generation. Male oppression of women limits the choices severely of the "virgin" model of women and drives enough women into poverty to maintain the supply of non-reproducing (at least in theory) "whores". Eliminating this paradigm and moving out of it is the main effect of feminism and bit by bit in this country women are succeeding. Religion is the main foe of femisism at every interval, it's a very organized "male-bonding" camp, a kinder-gentler "he-man woman haters club".

I don't think feminism would have gotten as far as it has without some innate though largely unvoiced male disgust at the carnage of all the wars in the last 150 years, and a yearning within males for another way.

No one is asserting that there are not natural diffences between the sexes, this thread is full of posts complaining about them. That is a really old saw. What feminism asserts is that none of these "differences" justify economic, social and religious discrimination, and the feminist movement was ready to take the draft to back up their assertion, although women in reality have very little power in the decision-making process about going to war, but that is going to change as well.

[Pithlet]

147. You're right. Not failed.

But there is so much work to be done, and it is still an uphill battle. I only used failed because that was the terminology the poster I responded to used. I think that post was typical blame the feminists for the problems the movement has always had.

[Tsiyu]

154. One of the best posts I've read here in a while

I hate that dichotomy.

GOD MADE US SUPERIOR: Therefore we rule you.

NATURE MADE US INFERIOR: Therefore we can't help it if we rule you poorly.

[xequals]

155. No discrimination is justified and I don't blame feminists,

who were simply looking for a solution to a problem.

Feminism only works among feminists - men and women who are willing to follow all of the rules of feminism.

But in the real world, most regular women and men will break those rules and follow their natural tendencies. They are the ones who commit the abuses of feminism.

Feminism fails where an individual from one sex is following the rules and another isn't. Feminist men tend to be emasculated and rejected by regular women, who simply see them as being wimpy. This is the classic abuse of feminism that most men talk about - which as we can see is not commited by actual feminist women, but regular women. That causes the feminist male to feel rejected and unmasculine, and forces him to question his feminist beliefs.

The other abuse of feminism is the reverse - regular man and feminist woman, where the regular man derides the feminist woman as being too masculine. The regular man sees the feminist woman as being too "strongheaded" and "out of her place", and rejects her as a woman and a person. This causes the feminist woman to be distrustful and indignant towards most regular men.

In order to have a more fair, equal society that really works for regular people and not just feminists, we have to take human nature into account, not so we can excuse harmful/hurtful behavior, but so that we can create a system that works in a more natural and effective way. Right now, there is simply a thin layer of political correctness resting on top of an antiquated social order determined by millions of years of evolution. We must do better, and will only start to address the situation by accepting the reality that we as men and women are equal in sum total but have different strenghts and weaknesses, different biological and psychological makeups which were created by parallel (but slightly different) evolutionary paths. Our goal should be to create a truly modern society which harnesses and enhances our basic "good" and minimizes or eliminates our basic "bad" -- one that works with our essential natures rather than against them.

[jdj]

164. following that right wing bullshit line about decent moral men

being emasculated will bring you nothing but republicans being elected into office which will ultimately lead to your getting drafted which will give you an opportunity to show how macho you are when you don't cry like a wimp when your ass gets blown to bits.

Wise up, homey.

[Tsiyu]

153. This would be swell if it were true

And you would be..........lemme guess..........male?

First of all, one male cannot speak for all males. Have you ever heard of the bell-shaped curve? We all fall somehwere along that curve, male and female, when the curve is measuring human libido.

We may ride the curve at the crest when we are in our twenties, to the left when we have small children, to the right as we go through the midlife crisis years.

Some males have very low sex drives. Many females have very high sex drives.

The sex drive itself does not determine sexual politics. The choices we make determine those. If you get a free pass to step over the line, you may feel more inclined to do so again. But inside, you know if you are treating someone as less-than-human, as "under your power." And then you make a choice whether you will continue to mistreat others or whether you will think of the good of all and stop.

When I was younger, my cousin and I would drive through snowy mountain passes at night and cut the lights arbitrarily, then flick them back on to see where we ended up.

It was a total rush.

But our fun could have killed someone so we quit.

[xequals]

157. It's not simply about sex drive,

or how much we want to have sex. For a woman, sex means something completely different than it does to a man. A woman who has a lot of sex frequently still views sex through a female mind, and a man who has sex infrequently or never still views sex through a male mind.

Our strategies for reproduction, or sexual behavior are but one area where the sexes differ, not the cause of the differences.

Men and women see the very world dissimilarly because we evolved along slightly dissimilar paths to meet dissimilar demands. Our brains, bodies and the way we approach life are distinctly male or female.

The science of evolutionary psychology explains all of this in greater detail.

[Tsiyu]

159. From James Dobson's mouth to your ears

Yes, Fundy men are always claiming that women don't like sex just for sex' sake ( Hmmmmm, as a female, i have to say BULLSHIT.)
Funny, it's also almost ALWAYS men who fight to make sex a procreation-only activity.


It took me a long time to figure out why men like to have this fantasy about women (and why women continue to let them have it.) I finally realized that men have used "nature" to explain and rationalize away acting like animals, so they "project" onto the female this "morality, good girl" thing so they can hope beyond hope that women won't cheat on them the way they cheat on women.

This is 2004. Women have their own incomes, their own goals, and they really don't NEED men for survival anymore. Your model is circa 1950. Try again, honey....

[Iris]

161. My God! We are lucky we aren't still living in caves with

men knocking us over the head and dragging us by the hair to their caves!

[Ripley]

163. What a bunch of psychobabble.

Trying to use chromosomes to determine what "place" females should take in society. To determine how much value a female's work is worth.

I can remember when people said the same thing about blacks and Mexicans in America. Of course they got the right to vote before females did.

Why is it you guys always have to have someone at the bottom of your totem pole? Are you really that insecure, you have to insist there is a biological pecking order? No one denies there are differences between males and females, but there are hundreds of other differences within males and females as well. And humans have evolved.

I don't give a damn how many books there are out there about Cavemen and Mars/Venus bullshit. All it amounts to is prettied up sexism, so guys like you can feel good about your fucked up stereotypes and misogyny.

And I suggest you see a therapist if your sexual obsession is on your mind every second. Frankly, I don't know how you could tear your hand away from it long enough to type.

[SarahB]

165. The Mars/Venus guy got his PhD by mail order.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/women_rebuttal_from_uranus/school.htm

Relying on him for advice is meaningless.

[Ripley]

168. LOL!

Thanks. I hate him. Whenever I see him on TV acting like the "Sensitive Man" saying his drivel in such a non-threatening way I want to find Skittles to go and KICK HIS ASS!

[jdj]

169. Oh, now, I REALLY want some documentation on this

I mean, I want some Oxford geneticist Dr. Brian Sykes type DNA documentation on how we "evolved differently". If you are referring to the differences between mito DNA and regular DNA and all that, please explain yourself, so we can discuss. Otherwise your posts are way too oblique to make the point, and I have never heard of the "science of evolutionary psychology" so please post me some links and some reading materials on that too.

I tend to believe that such a science would be quackery since any psychology would have to be practiced on a living subject, and any kind that presumes to do otherwise would be regarded by real scientists as unverifiable speculation.

[Ripley]

170. Well, you know we humans have evolved over MILLIONS of years.

So, he must be right. :eyes: I think Mr. Paternalistic has such little regard for the evolutionary different female brain, that he thinks he can post total bullshit and think we'll believe it. You know, just take his word because men are so much smarter.

[jdj]

172. I will tell these folks what they need to do

Sykes is sounding the alarm RIGHT NOW, that because of the nature of the environment in male testes, the Y chromosome is set to mutate itself to extinction within 2000 generations. In other words, men may die out, so he is warning that men need to do something about this NOW, come together and get samples of it and freeze it over time, so that when the Y chromosome is getting weaker and weaker because of mutation there will be enough good sperm left to create viable males.

Really, check his website, (have to google, I don't have a link.)

So men need to really give up this feminist bashing (even if it's the "kinder, gentler" kind, and worry about their own future on the planet.

[SarahB]

173. A couple of differences I have heard...

Have to do with inheriting traits that were useful to the earlier hunter gatherer societies of humans which were women were better at verbal communication and men having better visual-spacial abilities. That seems to be something that overall has been proven somewhat true, but it is still a generalization not taking into account for individual differences. Certainly not related to how we approach sexuality or how our emotional and sexual selves come into play.

[jdj]

174. don't fall for the "differences" b.s.

for one thing, men are genetically altered females, scientifically speaking, so I know they wouldn't want to further discrimination against "their own kind".

for another no one is claiming sameness. I'm from the south, so I know this is the same garbage used to instill racial prejudice in kids down here, and it goes as far back as the bible's obsession with bestowing morality based on geographical boundaries (samaritans, philistines, etc.) That kind off discussion is manipulative and boring. Liberty and justice for all despite our myriad differences is the answer.

oh, 2 myths about hunter-gatherer societies that need to be de-bunked:

80% of the food game from gathering, not hunting, so they need to be called gatherer hunter,

and most of the prey they caught and lived off of was small prey like rabbits, and also scavaged remains of predator kills like bones (for the marrow)

there is NO evidence whatsoever that primitive man ever hunted large prey like mammoth and mastodons, despite all the macho fantasizing

[Iris]

160. Excuse me, but how do you know how I approach sex? If I "can't

begin to understand" what a man thinks of sex, how can you presume to understand what I think of sex?

Grow up. I'm sorry if you've never had a sexual experience that is almost spiritual. A lot of men have.

And as far as being controlled by an obsession - well, I've known many a woman who's made poor decisions made on pure, physical lust.

And by the way, I caught a physcian on GMA yesterday who was discussing the human body and, guess what? - there's not that much difference between the workings of a man's body and those of a woman's. Sure there are hormones in play, but you can't simply discount social conditioning the way you are doing in your post.

[SarahB]

171. Exactly

Individual human beings are more complex than mere generalizations. To say that "men are this" and "women are that" only serves to divide us and marginalize a woman's sexuality and discount a man's emotions. Men are taught from too early of an age in our society to not let themselves be emotional or feel things- "be brave, be strong, suck it up, be a man, go forth and indiscriminately spread your seed to be a stud". Most men are so much more than this I feel if allowed a chance to be vulnerable and open. It's not just about the roles women are pigeonholed into, but about men as well.

[Iris]

175. And the more I think about it, even if this crap is true

why would it mean that woman can't have equal rights under the law?

[Still_Notafraid]

158. Thank you for this post

I rarely get to see the feminist view,and it is very interesting.
At many of the jobs I have had in my life I have noticed sexism on many occasions,I am always quick to say a comment is sexist or that is harassment when I witness such.

I try to be a voice for equality,as a male i do not see women as only Bodies,in fact a womans appearance rarely factors into my thoughts or in anyway influences how i see her.

I measure women the same way i measure men,based on intellect,conversation and skills.

the only thing i see written that offends me (but only a little =))
is the assumption that women would better run the world then men.
If indeed we are equal won't women and men do a similar job and if not isn't that reverse sexism.If so i can let it slide simply because men are far more sexist.

I would not be opposed to 50/50 gender req in government,But i do hope we can advance and evolve to a point where this is not necessary.

I will raise my son/daughter to embrace equality and to reject and speak up when ever sexism,racism,etc rears its ugly head.

[RedCloud]

166. Sad, but true.

I think women need to take the power: politically, economically and legally. Let real majority rule.

[UdoKier]

176. It's a great quote.

Surprised it would provoke such a long-lived thread, though.

[SarahB]

180. Thanks for helping to keep it alive though.

:7
:hi:

[TriMetFan]

177. It makes me MAD that people like my grandmother, mom and now me and the

younger women are still fighting for our rights. Wake up America!:mad: :mad:

[MISSDem]

179. To all feminists: how many still shave

under your arms and your legs?