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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 02:57 PM
Original message
Dayton: FAA, NORAD Hid 9/11 Failures
Dayton: FAA, NORAD hid 9/11 failures

http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/4904237.html

Some excerpts:

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Sen. Mark Dayton, D-Minn., charged Friday that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) have covered up "catastrophic failures" that left the nation vulnerable during the Sept. 11 hijackings.

"For almost three years now, NORAD officials and FAA officials have been able to hide their critical failures that left this country defenseless during two of the worst hours in our history," Dayton declared during a Senate Governmental Affairs Committee hearing.

...

Dayton told reporters that he skipped festivities at the Democratic National Committee Tuesday night and sat in his hotel room until 2:30 a.m. reading the commission report. After piecing together the section about the FAA and NORAD, he said, he could not fall asleep.

...

Dayton, a former Minnesota state auditor, called the FAA's and NORAD's failures "the most gross incompetence and dereliction of responsibility and negligence that I've ever, under those extreme circumstances, witnessed in the public sector."


Also, here's another interesting 9/11 story from last week I think most people missed:

Who's in Charge Here?

What the 9-11 Commission Report does not explain is why, on the morning of September 11, 2001, President Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, and other top officials were essentially missing in action.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2004/07/07_400.html
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good pick up, just posted in GD also
Will Americans be "tired" of the panel now, saying it's time to move on etc?
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for posting this
Very, very interesting....
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'm SHOCKED!
SIMPLY SHOCKED!!! ;-)
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. ...that "rambling" is going on here...?


That the 9/11 report is over 500 pages but says nothing?
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Chelsea Patriot Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank You!!!


Thank you for all the hard work. You have been instrumental in educating me on what happened Sept.11th.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. Watch Dayton on Cspan
Edited on Sat Jul-31-04 03:24 PM by seemslikeadream
Senate Hearing on Sept. 11 Cmsn. Recommendations (07/30/2004)

here at 1:58 mark DON'T MISS IT

http://www.cspan.org/

Brilliant!

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. a MUST WATCH...
Edited on Sat Jul-31-04 04:37 PM by Junkdrawer
Dayton points out what the press won't:

either the commission is lying about the timeline

---OR----

we've been lied to for years by NORAD, the FAA and the pResident about the timeline.
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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. Rummy/DOD, too ...
Dayton also pointed out that during the critical minutes that decisions had to be made concerning the pursuit/shoot-down of hijacked planes, Rummy was no where to be found.

Remember too, that Rumsfeld had CHANGED the procedures in June, 2001 to state that ONLY the President or the Secretary of Defense could authorize such flights. Previous to 6/01, military officers in the chain of command could use their best judgments on a case-by-case basis.

Dayton said that Rummy did not participate in conference calls between FAA, DOD, and Clarke's Command Center/Situation Room until 10:30 am, when the planes had all crashed.

Rumsfeld's excuse was that he was checking the damage to the Pentagon and helping victims of that crash.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thanks so much maryallen
I was thinking of that earlier today but wasn't clear on the facts.

:hi:
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Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I thought
the current theory on Rummy was that he was running around playing first responder and saving people in the Pentagon.
Might have saved more people if he went into his office and did his job that day instead.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. This is a disturbing and little discussed fact...
That and Paul's post #29 seem to bolster the idea that they not only knew some type of attack was coming, but they also knew when.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
45. So glad for the chance to see Dayton doing this. Thank you! n/t
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. Much of the media have been complicit in one of the biggest...
cover-ups of 9/11:

Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, of all places, 36 minutes AFTER the second plane hit the WTC and a full hour and 20 minutes after the FAA knew hijackings were occurring - with no NORAD response anywhere near. I'm sorry, but there's just no reasonable explanation for that.

I still remember NPR, a few weeks ago, declaring that since the hijackers turned off the transponders, the planes were invisible to radar. And to my knowledge, NPR has never retracted that ridiculous assertion.
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squidbro Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Agreed
My brother is a pilot for one of the airlines and had been a staunch shrub fan.

When I brought this very fact up with him, he had no explanation for why there was no response.

Here in ridiculously conservative south eastern Washington, people give crazy excuses such how a military pilot would not be able to shoot down a civilian plane.

The lengths people will go through in explaning away a lie.

It never ceases to amaze me.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Of course there's a "reasonable explanation": MIHOP

If you plug that into your thinking it all falls into place. It is NOT reasonable to believe that the every institution of the United States gov't failed to perform it's duties at the same time.

I'm not a statistition, but sure would like to see an evaluation of this possibility.

This would even amaze Murphy.
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bacchant Donating Member (747 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
43. Exactly! The "cosmic convergence" explanation where everything
miraculously broke down at just the right time, is total crap. I never believed it and never will. We need a commission that wants the truth no matter how painful and potentially destructive that could be to the status quo.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
47. The remarkable thing about many calamities is that
Edited on Sun Aug-01-04 02:41 PM by HereSince1628
often a handful of unlikely events are, unfortunately, in play at the same instant. If you take the historic probabilities of each individual event, they are small. Calculating the joint probabilities of all the contributing factors required for the calamity one arrives at a remarkably small probability. Nonetheless, the event did happen no matter how unlikely.

"If only's" are a major theme in post hoc analysis and recommendations for correction to processes and administration.

While vanishingly low joint probabilities appear to support MIHOP (which I am not saying IS true, but certainly shouldn't be ruled out without consideration). The way I read EVERY catastrophe is that many things went wrong simultaneously. Absolutely some of these things should have and could have been controlled.

But, they weren't.

Assigning blame is important if culpability can be shown, but creating protocols that prevent concurrent failures in command and control systems is a huge priority.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. Should not the most gross incompetence and dereliction of responsibility
and negligence ever witnessed and germane to three thousand deaths and possibly hundreds of billions of dollars of damage to infrastructure and the economy warrant at least some mild rebukes? Something is velly, velly amiss here for it just doesn't add up. What does it all mean?
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squidbro Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Covering up the president
No prosecutions. They can't prosecute as someone might squeal about the real truth of what Bush really knew.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Don't forget....there were almost
3,000 deaths in the attack, but the attack let to 2 wars which have added to the death toll, not only for us but for Afghanistan and Iraq. Not to mention the cost in dollars to our treasury.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. It means that Bu$h must go.
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leetrisck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. I just read that part
Am about 1/4 way thru the book. It also appears that they cannot confirm or deny that Cheney actually talked to bush before ordering shoot downs - very convoluted.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. All over DC, they KNOW it's M/LIHOP! The entire political/media complex
Edited on Sat Jul-31-04 05:23 PM by Jim Sagle
is hiding it - IN PLAIN SIGHT!

On national TV, w was asked about "the suggestion" from Howard Dean that 911 was an inside job (Dean had, of course, suggested no such thing).

Consider w's stammering, his shaking voice, his slurring of words (much worse than usual), his exceptionally weak denial, his lack of SURPRISE much less outrage at such a question, his inability to look any of the assembled reporters in the eye.

Then think about the fact that this was a telecast news conference, yet there was no immediate call for impeachment, much less a treason trial.

Finally consider the knowing laughter when w is let off the hook - laughter shared by a collection of major reporters from all the national media.

What conclusion CAN be reached except that all over DC, they know 911 was an inside job? That means your Senator knows. It means your congressman knows. It means Rather and Jennings and Brokaw and Ifill along with all the creatures crawling around in the electronic roach motel laughably known as cable news - they know as well.

Certainly Tom Friedman knows, not that he would WANT to spill. But Joe Conason has to know as well, and I'm sure he WOULD want to let us know. And so would Sid Blumenthal and Gene Lyons and Nick von Hoffman and all the other decent journalists somehow left standing.

Yet no one with any well-known credibility breathes a word. What keeps them all silent?

Sen. Dayton is a brave man.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I think you are right - The Players got Played.
Ah, the politics of Oil and strategic resources.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
33. No one breathes a word because
not a single one of them is brave enough to be the first one to pull their finger out of the dam. Once that dam bursts, they know that that not only will it be the end of Bu$h and Co, but that it will be their own end as well.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #33
56. The Anthrax attack put a stop to this perhaps? Certainly Daschle has
Edited on Mon Aug-02-04 07:26 AM by KoKo01
been a disappointment and one wonders the effect the anthrax attack had on all the others in Congress. The culpret has yet to be found. Why?
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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. Response
POWERFUL EVIDENCE AIR FORCE WAS MADE TO STAND DOWN ON 9-11
... In response to the letter below, we have provided a clearer explanation
of the proof that the Air Force was ordered to stand down on 9-11. ...
emperors-clothes.com/indict/update630.htm - 26k - Cached - Similar pages
< More results from emperors-clothes.com >

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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Emperor's Clothes is the best investigatory site on the web.
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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. and also this site
Guilty for 9-11 Attacks Stories on Andrews AFB and Availability of Fighters Produce Controversy

Additional Investigation Corroborates Story, Reveals Pentagon Lies

FTW, November 20, 2001 - Shortly after we posted the incredible story by Jared Israel and Illarion Bykov from the Emperor's New Clothes web site, www.tenc.net, we received emails challenging their detailed research. Those messages asserted that because Andrews was listed as an Air National Guard base, rather than a regular Air Force Base that there were no pilots there capable of responding to the 9-11 attacks.

Not only has my research corroborated the original assertions of the story but new developments indicate that the Air Force and the Pentagon may be trying to hide evidence.

Below, you will see one of the original questions posed about the story. I will follow that with my follow-up investigation. Then you will see some dramatic new developments as posted by the story's authors.

The story stands, the authors stand by it and I agree. Judge for yourself.

Mike Ruppert

From: Mike Ruppert

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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
21. That Mother Jones article
is devastating.
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I listened to that hearing and later read that section....I remember that
shrub didnt call his family...and didnt ask about them for over an hour..after leaving the school....and isnt the limo equipped with up to date communications equipment?
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. He would have been safest in the limo
instead of the school. And yes, he has unparalleled communications equipment in the car. In fact, I think Yahoo or CNN just did a story on the car, Cadillac One, I believe it's called. The thing is like a moving safe room for him.
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Here's a quote from my timeline
Philip Melanson, author of a book on the Secret Service, comments, “With an unfolding terrorist attack, the procedure should have been to get the president to the closest secure location as quickly as possible, which clearly is not a school. You’re safer in that presidential limo, which is bombproof and blastproof and bulletproof. . . . In the presidential limo, the communications system is almost duplicative of the White House—he can do almost anything from there but he can’t do much sitting in a school.”
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Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
23. this is a great statement
the most gross incompetence and dereliction of responsibility and negligence that I've ever, under those extreme circumstances, witnessed in the public sector."


OR

it's not. I didn't even know when they scrambled the planes in Virginia they send them the wrong way and actually made them further away if they didn't scramble them at all. Get the flip out of dodge.
Only idiots would believe our ATC system works this way.

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
34. This is how things work
when there is no one in charge.

There was no stand down order or anything like that. What happened is that the key people at the top of the chain of command stood down.

Bu$h, Rummie, Wolfowitz, Tenet, Myers, Cheney, Rice, not a single one, reacted appropriately while the attack was in progress. They all stalled and ignored the situation for as long as possible. Then when they were forced to pay attention they continued to waste time by doing everything but their job. Rummie ran to help the victims, W and Condi worked on preparing W's 9:30 AM press conference....

It wasn't until almost 10:00 AM that any of them did anything to actually respond to the attack. By that time it was over and they had their Pearl Harbor.



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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. it's also exactly how a conspiracy with plausible deniability works
although I don't think they achieved plausible.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Read their statements
everything was fuzzy, confused, they can't remember what they did. No one would have thought, no one could have imagined.

Almost everyone in America knew exactly what was going on by 9:05 AM. Everyone except the people in this misadministration? Yeah, right.

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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
27. *Gulp*
It truly is, "Either you're with us or you're a terrorist."

Anyone who doesn't toe their party line can be jailed on trumped up or fabricated charges, thanks to the Patriot Act.

There has been a coup, when will those asleep at the wheel realize this?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
30. Senator Dayton: NORAD Lied About 9/11
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20040731213239607

Senator Dayton: NORAD Lied About 9/11

Sunday, August 1, 2004

Introduction

Mark Dayton has become the first U.S. senator to challenge the
establishment consensus that "The 9/11 Commission Report" settles the open
questions of Sept. 11, 2001.

In Senate hearings last Friday Dayton (D-MN) raised an obvious point: if
the timeline of air defense response as promoted in the Kean Commission's
best-selling book is correct, then the timeline presented repeatedly by
NORAD during the last two years was completely wrong. Yet now no one at
NORAD is willing to comment on their own timeline!

When the official story of 9/11 can be changed repeatedly without anyone
ever being held accountable, we have no right to ever again expect honest
government. Please read the following story and do your part to support
Sen. Dayton for highlighting the contradiction, and to encourage the media
to follow up.

Background: Evolution of the Official Story

From the beginning, the 9/11 investigations, official and alternative, have
been about timelines: what happened, who knew about it and who did
what in response.

Written by the government's Kean Commission, the just-published "9/11
Commission Report" presents a timeline of air defense response that differs
radically from all of the previous official stories.

Since Sept. 11 government representatives have in fact promoted a series of
mutually contradictory narratives of how the nation's air defenses
responded to the unfolding attacks. Various chronologies were presented at
different times by the high military command, the North American Air
Defense command (NORAD), the Federal Aviation Administration, and now the
Kean Commission.

Little noticed, the original story was delivered by Gen. Richard Myers, the
acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on 9/11. Just two days after
the events, Myers appeared before the Senate for hearings, scheduled many
weeks earlier, to consider his appointment as the nation's supreme military
officer. Myers told the Senate that no fighter jets were scrambled to
intercept any of the 9/11 flights until after the Pentagon was struck.

The Pentagon attack occurred at 9:38 a.m., a full 1 hour 20 minutes after
the first of the 9/11 flights was diverted from its designated flight path.

Myers's statement to the Senate was incredible, given the standard U.S. air
defense protocols for dealing with errant instrument flights (including
off-course passenger planes). In place many years before Sept. 11, these
procedures are automatic and require no special order. Within minutes after
a flight ceases to respond to ground control, the FAA is expected to alert
NORAD - which scrambles jet fighters to intercept the errant flight for
reconnaissance purposes. These are supposed to be airborne within 10
minutes of the problem arising.

This routine was activated on at least 67 occasions in the year prior to
Sept. 11, 2001. Exceptional as the events of 9/11 proved to be, the
procedures should have also been activated automatically within minutes of
each flight diversion on that day.

Before Myers's disturbing admission to the Senate received much notice,
NORAD under General Ralph Eberhard effectively put the lie to his
statement. A partial timeline of U.S. air defense response published on
Sept. 18, 2001 presented the times at which NORAD was alerted about each
flight diversion by the FAA. In its statement, NORAD claimed to have
responded to the alerts by scrambling two squads of interceptors. These,
however, never reached any of their targets in time to intercept, let alone
prepare for a possible shootdown.

As late as May 2003, General Arnold of NORAD, sitting alongside Gen. Myers,
presented a slightly revised version of NORAD's Sept. 2001 timeline, in
testimony to the Kean Commission.

The NORAD timeline indicated that during the crisis hours of 9/11, the FAA
became increasingly slower in delivering alerts to NORAD. This seemed to
shift the blame for the failed response to the FAA.

The FAA, however, disputed Gen. Arnold's testimony with a statement of May
21, 2003. The FAA claimed that regardless of the official notification
times claimed by NORAD, phone bridges were established immediately after
the initial attack (at 8:46). NORAD was informed in real time throughout of
all developments, including about the plane that ultimately hit the
Pentagon, the FAA said.

Thus for more than a year the FAA has been in open dispute with NORAD on
who informed whom and when about the Sept. 11 hijackings; unfortunately,
this has never become the major media story it deserves to be.

The Kean Commission itself intervened in June 2004. In a staff statement
delivered at its final set of hearings ("Improvising a Homeland Defense"),
the Commission outlined a chronology that completely ditched the timeline
that NORAD had upheld for two years. It also effectively placed almost all
of the blame for delayed air defense response on the FAA.

Gens. Arnold and Myers, who testified to the Commission that same morning,
were not held to account for having presented an entirely wrong timeline.
Instead, they simply thanked the Kean Commission for clearing up the
confusion. In return, one commissioner made a point of telling the generals
they were not to blame; after all, it was all the FAA's fault!

A group of FAA officials who testified in the subsequent, final session
stuck by their old defense that they had in fact provided adequate and
timely information to NORAD via the phone bridges. As the hearings
concluded, they still disputed both timelines: the old one from NORAD, and
the new one from the Kean Commission.

Dayton: Demanding Accountability

Now that the Kean Commission has published the new timeline in its final
report, these contradictions must not be simply swept under the rug. Either
the Kean Commission is wrong, or else NORAD was pushing a flawed timeline
for more than two years. Either way, the FAA story still differs from both.

There can be no excuses. Those responsible for dispensing false information
must be held accountable, or else nothing in the behavior of government is
likely ever to improve.

Instead of accountability, several of the key figures - Gens. Myers and
Eberhard, FAA official Ben Sliney - have been promoted since Sept. 11! Yet
one or more of them must be wrong about what happened on 9/11.

This is the simple point that Sen. Mark Dayton made yesterday at Senate
hearings on the 9/11 Commission Report: now that it has accepted the Kean
Commission findings, NORAD must explain its old timeline, and anyone
responsible for pushing it, whether intentionally or not, must be held
accountable.

To our knowledge the story so far has been reported only by Greg Gordon in
the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. An excerpt:

(From http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/4904237.html)

Dayton: FAA, NORAD hid 9/11 failures

By Greg Gordon, Star Tribune Washington Bureau Correspondent

July 31, 2004

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Sen. Mark Dayton, D-Minn., charged Friday that the
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the North American Aerospace
Defense Command (NORAD) have covered up "catastrophic failures" that left
the nation vulnerable during the Sept. 11 hijackings.

"For almost three years now, NORAD officials and FAA officials have been
able to hide their critical failures that left this country defenseless
during two of the worst hours in our history," Dayton declared during a
Senate Governmental Affairs Committee hearing.

(snip)

During the hearing, Dayton told leaders of the Sept. 11 commission, that,
based on the commission's report, a NORAD chronology made public a week
after the attacks was grossly misleading. The chronology said the FAA
notified the military's emergency air command of three of the hijackings
while those jetliners were still airborne. Dayton cited commission findings
that the FAA failed to inform NORAD about three of the planes until after
they had crashed.

And, he said, a squadron of NORAD fighter planes that was scrambled was
sent east over the Atlantic Ocean and was 150 miles from Washington, D.C.,
when the third plane struck the Pentagon -- "farther than they were before
they took off."

Dayton said NORAD officials "lied to the American people, they lied to
Congress and they lied to your 9/11 commission to create a false impression
of competence, communication and protection of the American people." He
told Kean and Hamilton that if the commission's report is correct,
President Bush "should fire whoever at FAA, at NORAD ... betrayed their
public trust by not telling us the truth."

Asked about Dayton's allegation, a spokesman for Colorado Springs-based
NORAD said, "We stand on our testimony to the commission" and declined to
discuss the 2001 chronology. Erin Utzinger, a spokeswoman for Dayton, said
the senator "assumes the FAA knew of NORAD's coverup."

(End of excerpt. Full story here at http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/4904237.html)

In the weeks ahead, we will be presenting a complete treatment of the old
NORAD timeline and of "The Emperor's New Timeline" as spelled out in the
Kean Commission report. This will be part of a series exposing the many
Omissions of the Commission. END

(Story: Nicholas Levis)

Meanwhile, we encourage you all to write and call Sen. Dayton's office to
offer your support, and also to write to author Greg Gordon of the
Star-Tribune to thank him for his article. Finally, write to media and get
them to cover this story!

Kyle Hence of Citizens' Watch has already written an excellent letter to
Dayton's office, one that we urge all 9/11 truth seekers to freely
"plagiarize" in writing their own letters a.s.a.p.:

Letter to be hand delivered to:

Representative Patrick Kennedy (D-RI 1st)
U.S. House of Representatives
407 Cannon House Office Building
Washington, D.C.

Senator Mark Dayton (D-MN)
United States Senate
346 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C.

*****************

Dear Senator Dayton,

I commend you today for your courage in speaking out about the evidence
you've seen that NORAD lied to the American people and to the Commission
when it released it's official timelines in September of '01 and again at
the May '03 hearing (not under oath!). forcing the Commission to take testimony under oath].

I feel that the timeline offered us by the Commission is suspect as well.
This brings me to my primary message to you and your colleagues as you look
ahead to further hearings on the Hill about the Commission's Report.

I cannot stress enough how important it is to not just examine the 9/11
Commission recommendations. The Commissions findings of facts and
circumstances including suspect timelines must be scrutinized as well with
equal commitment and vigor. If the facts are wrong or incomplete then the
recommendations that flow from those flawed findings may be flawed as well.

Please read the first 8 pages of Richard Clarke's book. His timeline
conflicts grossly with that of the Commission's. The Commission has
Rumsfeld and Myers out of the loop until well after 10AM. Myers they say
was in a car enroute to the Pentagon when he saw smoke there. Rumsfeld was
in a breakfast meeting through the whole course of the attack. Clarke has
then both in a White House directed video conference beginning at
approximately 9:12AM.

Also, please read Gail Sheehy's "Who's in Charge Here?" (it's posted at
www.911citizenswatch.org)

Clarke quotes a Deputy Director of the Situation Room in the White House
(the Director being in FL with Pres. Bush) saying when Clarke arrives at
approximately 9:10 that a "Threat Conference Call" was underway.

The 9/11 Commission has the "Threat conf." starting at 9:37 or 9:39.

These are major discrepancies that beg for answers and explanations. How
were they resolved? Is there a cover-up? Why was there no call for courts
martial? How could Rumsfeld, Myers and the President be left out of the
loop over the 109 minutes you mentioned it took for the attacks to be
carried out?

Thank you for your diligence in the most critical search for the whole
truth about what happened on 9/11.

This brief email has touched on a tip of an iceberg that would throw grave
suspicions on the work of the Commission and the supposed cooperation of
the Agencies asked to assist in getting to the truth.

Sincerely,

Kyle F. Hence
9/11 Citizens' Watch
911citizenswatch.org




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DavidFL Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 04:23 AM
Response to Original message
31. This stood out to me in reading the Mother Jones article...
“We investigated very carefully Mr. Rumsfeld’s actions,” said Hamilton. “He was having breakfast with Congressional leaders, and they hear a plane has hit the Pentagon, and he runs out.”


Does anyone happen to know exactly which Congressional leaders was Rumsfeld having breakfast with? Was it with Graham, Goss and Gen. Ahmed?

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. Rep Cox was with Rummie
This is his account of events that morning:


Rep Cox
http://cox.house.gov/html/release.cfm?id=33

Chairman Cox's Statement on the Terrorist Attack on America

At 9 a.m. EDT Tuesday, as a hijacked Boeing 767 slammed into the World Trade Center, I was in the Pentagon in the private dining room of the Secretary of Defense. Don Rumsfeld, the Secretary, and Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Secretary, and I were discussing how to win votes for the Bush defense plan that is now pending in the House and Senate.

When minutes later, the Pentagon itself was hit by a Boeing 757 loaded with civilian passengers, virtually the entire building was immediately evacuated. I escaped just minutes before the building was hit. Most of those who remained were huddled in the National Military Command Center in a basement bunker of the building. From there, America's military response is being directed even now.

Ironically, just moments before the Department of Defense was hit by a suicide hijacker, Secretary Rumsfeld was describing to me why America needs to abandon its decade-old two-major-war strategy, and focus on the real threat facing us in the 21st century: terrorism, and the unexpected.

"When I worked on the ballistic missile threat commission , there was an 'event' every few months that focused the attention of those in denial," he told me. "For example, India shocked the world when it detonated a nuclear device. Then Pakistan. Then North Korea launched a two-stage ballistic missile over Japan.

"Terrorist groups, some state-sponsored, are developing these same missile capabilities as we meet here. They are developing the chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons to go with them.

"They do not have all the pieces yet, but they will. That is why Congress has got to give the President the tools he needs to move forward with a defense of America against ballistic missiles, the ultimate terrorist weapons.

"If we remain vulnerable to missile attack, a terrorist group or rogue state that demonstrates the capacity to strike the U.S. or its allies from long range could have the power to hold our entire country hostage to nuclear or other blackmail,'' he said.

"And let me tell you, I've been around the block a few times. There will be another event." He repeated it for emphasis: "There will be another event."

Within minutes of that utterance, Rumsfeld's words proved tragically prophetic.







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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #37
50. No wonder we are having a phony alert today
Can't allow that out there without scaring the pants off every one.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Ya know, that thought came to me too...
All it will take is a couple of the wrong people talking and Rummy is fighting for his life in a court of law.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
32. Kick
:kick:
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graphixtech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
35. ex- Canadian Defense Minister asks 'WHY" failure? (pics)
http://www.septembereleventh.org/alerts/hellyer.php

(Paul Hellyer photos credit Kyle Hence)




An interview with Paul Hellyer,
former Defense Minister of Canada

The following interview was conducted by Kyle Hence of 911CitizensWatch.org and Bill Douglas of 911Visibility.org, on May 27, 2004, at the International 9-11 Inquiry in Toronto, Canada.

(Paul Hellyer held the Canadian office equivalent to Secretary of Defense in the U.S., and was Deputy Prime Minister, the Canadian equivalent to Vice President.)

Paul Hellyer:
Why didn't you know this was going to happen? You spend billions and billions with spooks all over the world and surely you should have known what was going on. And, so I began to be concerned about that. And then questions were raised by others. Why did the President just sit in the schoolroom when he heard the news? Why did he not acknowledge that he already knew what was going on? As a former Minister of National Defense, when the news came out I had to wonder. Why did airplanes fly around for an hour and a half without interceptors being scrambled from Andrews ? Is it Andrews right next to the capitol?

Kyle Hence: Yes, that's correct.

Paul Hellyer: With a quick action alert they should have been there in five minutes or ten minutes. If not, as the Minister of National Defense, which in the United States is the Secretary of Defense, I would want to say "why not?"

Kyle Hence: Does it disturb you, or do you have concerns about your neighbors to the south that there's been no inquiry at a defense level relative to the specific failure to scramble jets?

Paul Hellyer: I think the inquiry has been very shallow and superficial. And I would like to see a much tougher more in-depth inquiry. The evidence is that some people were allowed to fly out of the United States after the attack when American citizens were not allowed to fly in. And Canadians had the pleasure, I guess in a sense, of the company of tens of thousands, several tens of thousands of them in Canada for a few days, especially in Newfoundland where the people were most gracious in looking after them. But why were some members of the Bin Laden family allowed to fly out of the United States? Why?

There are so many questions. What is going wrong here? Or was there something going wrong? How much did they actually know?
(more)

Kyle Hence: It seems like there's a fundamental lack of accountability and transparency, especially now in the wake of 9-11. Does that concern you in regards to what's happening in America with the Patriot Act, and the projection of American military power?

Paul Hellyer: Oh, very, very much so. I'm very disturbed about a lack of transparency. Everyone talks about it, and no one is willing to come clean, as it were. I just had lunch, interestingly enough with the designer of the Avro Arrow which was cancelled more than 40 years ago and one of the things we were discussing were the lies that people in government and the Air Force told at the time. And I guess this makes me all the more suspicious. If they lied about that, what else were they lying about? So, we were agreeing that you had to get behind the superficial and the spin and try and get at the truth. It's very difficult. It takes a lot of time. But, we have to try and get the truth. Because unless we do, as the good book says, "seek the truth and the truth will set you free." And I think that's what we've got to try to do and I hope that somebody has the courage and the persistence to keep at it until we can get it.
(more)
http://www.septembereleventh.org/alerts/hellyer.php

http://www.911Truth.org/index.php


http://www.septembereleventh.org/forum/ubbthreads.php
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
40. I just saw the repeat on C-Span....
very powerful stuff. Sen. Dayton is a HERO!
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
41. Proof of MIHOP. The hijackers HAD to know the proceedures.

The hijackers, or at least their planners, would have had to know the proceedures for intercept. Anyone with any familiarity with general aviation would know. It's simply not national security secret information.

The very fact that they proceeded with their plan is, to me, proof that the administration is involved in the planning of the attack itself.

Let me put it this way: If you were a terrorist and going to plan this kind of attack, knowing that the responce would be quick and automatic, would you continue with the planning and execution of the attack? Not if you were sane, you wouldn't. Youd know that the plan was doomed to failure because the hijacked planes wouldn't get a chance to hit their targets.

Now lets assume that you were planning this attack, but you aren't a terrorist, you are a member of a group that has said you needed a new american pearl harbor to be successfull in your plan to take over the middle east for its oil and strategic importance. In this case you wouldn't worry about it, because you could have the right people in the right places to be sure that the automatic responce would be screwed up just enough so that the plan WOULD work. And they've had a decade to get those people into those places. It's even simpler if your family and that of the head terrorist have not only friendly, but money connections. Their only problem was that it was Jeb who was being groomed for the presidency, but he screwed up and was involved in a fraud scheme so they had to fall back to Ol' Dumb George. But they went ahead anyway and they were successful.

Let's be honest. This nation experienced a COUP DE TAT on Setember 11, 2001. It was so successful that if you talk about it, you are a nutty conspiracy theorist. Let me suggest that if you don't believe it you are ignoring reality. Historically, the coup is the USUAL way that regimes are replaced. The successful ones are just not talked about.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Well, Rumsfeld's June 2001 order that only he and the president could...
Edited on Sun Aug-01-04 01:22 PM by Junkdrawer
order a shoot down, together with the fact that he was unavailable and Junior was reading about Pet Goats at the critical moments, does seem to point to some foreknowledge and planning.

Now, whether they knew the World Trade Centers would be hit and fall is another question, but I don't think that question would spare them a death sentence if they were involved in such a plot and they were caught.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Well here's what Rummy was doing on September 10, 2001
DOD Acquisition and Logistics Excellence Week Kickoff—Bureaucracy to Battlefield
Remarks as Delivered by Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, The Pentagon , Monday, September 10, 2001.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Pete Aldridge, Service Secretaries, distinguished officials of the Department of Defense. General Myers, thank you very much for those kind words.

The topic today is an adversary that poses a threat, a serious threat, to the security of the United States of America. This adversary is one of the world's last bastions of central planning. It governs by dictating five-year plans. From a single capital, it attempts to impose its demands across time zones, continents, oceans and beyond. With brutal consistency, it stifles free thought and crushes new ideas. It disrupts the defense of the United States and places the lives of men and women in uniform at risk.

Perhaps this adversary sounds like the former Soviet Union, but that enemy is gone: our foes are more subtle and implacable today. You may think I'm describing one of the last decrepit dictators of the world. But their day, too, is almost past, and they cannot match the strength and size of this adversary.

The adversary's closer to home. It's the Pentagon bureaucracy. Not the people, but the processes. Not the civilians, but the systems. Not the men and women in uniform, but the uniformity of thought and action that we too often impose on them.

In this building, despite this era of scarce resources taxed by mounting threats, money disappears into duplicative duties and bloated bureaucracy—not because of greed, but gridlock. Innovation is stifled—not by ill intent but by institutional inertia.

Just as we must transform America's military capability to meet changing threats, we must transform the way the Department works and what it works on. We must build a Department where each of the dedicated people here can apply their immense talents to defend America, where they have the resources, information and freedom to perform.

Our challenge is to transform not just the way we deter and defend, but the way we conduct our daily business. Let's make no mistake: The modernization of the Department of Defense is a matter of some urgency. In fact, it could be said that it's a matter of life and death, ultimately, every American's.

A new idea ignored may be the next threat overlooked. A person employed in a redundant task is one who could be countering terrorism or nuclear proliferation. Every dollar squandered on waste is one denied to the warfighter. That's why we're here today challenging us all to wage an all-out campaign to shift Pentagon's resources from bureaucracy to the battlefield, from tail to the tooth.

http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/2001/s20010910-secdef.html
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Look at the flight paths
They certainly didn't seem like they were in a big hurry to hit their targets.

Flight 77 even takes a detour, possibly to wait for Flight 93 to take off and catch up.

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
46. DUer Dac_76 made a clip of Dayton's comments in the Senate...
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bacchant Donating Member (747 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. As I watch this tape I'm struck by two things
1. Dayton has the nervous demeanor of someone out on a limb.

and

2. Nobody else there seems to give a rat's ass about these damning discrepancies.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #48
55. I just hope he stays out of small engine planes
So he doesn't go down like Wellstone did...
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
51. Tears Came To My Eyes After Reading This
I sat and thought really hard and now it's obvious to me that the panel was a cover-up operation. I didn't expect much, but a serious cover-up like this is truly telling. I really feel for the people of this country more than ever. Thank you for posting this.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
53. Paul, are you going to do an article about these timeline discrepancies?
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
54. Dayton, like Dean
Edited on Mon Aug-02-04 02:00 AM by Carolab
A lone voice of truth...

Wonder if Dean can get Dayton on the air to discuss this when he subs for Tina Brown next Sunday???? I just e-mailed DFA HQ about it...as well as Senator Dayton. I am so proud of my good Minnesota senator for standing up for the truth, time and time again. He needs help!!!

Please write the media!!! Please help Senator Dayton to get this information OUT!!!
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
57. Mark is one of the few
senators with any intestinal fortitude. I think he's great.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
58. Back to the top..
:kick:
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Keeping it up there.
:kick:
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
60. When is this story gonna hit the main line media?
Or do we have to listen to junior scare us with shake down tactics and tell us how safe we are?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. A #1: When shrimp learn to whistle. A #2: Yes n/t
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
61. this should be a whole 60 minutes show...we have no truth in this area
why do they need to lie/cover soo much?
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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
63. I don't know how the whole system works so...
Edited on Mon Aug-02-04 12:58 PM by skypilot
...I have to ask this question. Does NORAD have to depend on the FAA to notify it of hijackings or other possible threats in the air? Doesn't NORAD have its own radar? Say that the FAA somehow drops the ball completely, does that mean that NORAD will be completely unaware that something is going on?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Well, they have always had the world's largest computers and...
the world's best radar network. They track every piece of space junk larger than a large bolt, so you'd think they could find four commercial airliners, even with their transponders off.
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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. transponders off
This seems to me to be an important point. I've read where air traffic controllers say that it is not uncommon for them to lose the transponder signal. This is why I find it hard to believe that NORAD would be so dependent on the FAA to keep them abreast of things. I always thought that NORAD could operate and detect anything amisss independent of any other agency.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Lots of expert posts on this thread
"Because they disabled the transponders, they were invisible to Radar"...

There are times when DU is a great source of info...
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. BTW re: transponders. There's a misunderstanding on them.

Radar will paint an aircraft on it's screen with or without a transponder. The only thing a transponder does is to identify the aircraft and its altitude.
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. No, radar was pointed the wrong way.... really
I actually heard that explanation somewhere...
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Are you kidding me?
love your name - welcome to DU!
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Thanks, sorry, should have used sarcasm sign. n/t
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