Vatican discourages interfaith marriages

[dArKeR]

Vatican City - Marriages between Catholics and non-Christians should be discouraged, particularly between Catholics and Muslims, the Vatican said in an official document on immigration published on Friday.

The document, drafted by Japanese Cardinal Stephen Fumio Hamao, president of the Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Refugees, sees immigration as a largely positive phenomenon that imposes the need for inter-religious dialogue.

But the document also states that "with regard to marriage between Catholics and non-Christian migrants, this should be discouraged".

http://iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=3&art_id=qw1084532761740B213&set_id=1

This is sick. Right now I feel I'm never ever going to Church again.

[displacedtexan]

1. Don't forget: It's time to run for Pope again!

This always happens when it's time to run for Pope: if we think prez politics is vicious, our election year antics can't begin to compare with the worldwide "My Cardinal is more Catholic than your cardinal" political jockeying for position. Pope selection politics are more like warlords gathering armies.

[IconoclastIlene]

97. I promise not to marry a Catholic

Im already married to a Protestant and I'm not a Christian anyway.

[Pachamama]

100. I promise not to marry a Republican...

....actually, I'm already married, but I couldn't resist...

Maybe the Repukes will start advocating no marriage out of the party?

I think this statement from the Catholic church is disgusting, but then again, they lost me years ago....

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Servo300]

3. not that big a deal

This is sick. Right now I feel I'm never ever going to Church again.

Why?

This is nothing particularly new. The Catholic Church has always discouraged mixed marriages, even between Catholics and Protestants. And they have a valid point -- religious differences certainly have the potential to add stress to a marriage and the raising of children.

[MichaelHarris]

18. valid point??

since when does any church have the right to tell anyone who to marry? Who to vote for? How to think? Who is eligible for communion? The church I was raised had open doors for everyone regardless of race, or who they were married to. And as a side note; I'm a Protestant married to a Catholic. Been happy for ages. The ones who aren't happy, are the ones who listen to this horseshit. So, you could say the church causes their unhappiness, not each other.

[Servo300]

21. note the distinction

The Church does not FORBID mixed marriages, it DISCOURAGES them.

[MichaelHarris]

23. OK then

ask yourself why it discourages them? You can slice that apple any way you want and you'll come up with only one answer. Racism, bigotry.

[Servo300]

31. Not at all.

ask yourself why it discourages them? You can slice that apple any way you want and you'll come up with only one answer. Racism, bigotry.

Has nothing whatever with racism or bigotry, but rather faith and doctrine.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church sections 1633-1637, and the Apostolic Letter on Mixed Marriages from the Documents of Vatican II.

[The Stranger]

39. "Faith and doctrine?"

Faith (when it is dictated) and doctrine often institutionalize racism and bigotry.

[MichaelHarris]

40. So you

hold with the notion that mixed faith marriages should be discouraged? If the church suddenly came out and said mixed race marriages should be discouraged would you follow that? Does racism only apply to skin color? Can it not also apply to faith? If you answer yes to the second one then how can you allow an institution to instruct you not to marry outside your faith? Foresaking your love for someone because a religion DISCOURAGES it? I'm sticking by my first point, this is blatant bigotry and racism. As far as the Apostolic Letter on Mixed Marriages, not interested. As I have made my position known I would never allow a church to educate me on any matter EXCEPT religion. My heart, my mind, and my vote belong to me, not the pope.

And yet remember there would be no turmoil in mixed faith marriages if the churches didn't cause it. Love is blind, until a church rules on it.

[Servo300]

43. You're reading too much into my statement

So you"Posted by mharris660 hold with the notion that mixed faith marriages should be discouraged?

I never said that. I was merely pointing out that the Catholic Church has, in its view, valid reasons for discouraging mixed marriages that stem from its religious teachings and not bigotry or racism. And, that this is nothing new -- it is a longstanding teaching.

As far as the Apostolic Letter on Mixed Marriages, not interested.

Glad to hear that you're so open-minded.

As I have made my position known I would never allow a church to educate me on any matter EXCEPT religion. My heart, my mind, and my vote belong to me, not the pope.

I suspect that you're not Catholic, then?

[MichaelHarris]

51. no, not Catholic but my wife is

she's very dismayed, and hurt by the recent turn of events within the church. She told me, before she left for work that they read some statement in church on Sunday about politics and politicians and the Catholics should only vote for candidates who follow religious teachings. Now first, an apology, I'm sorry if I come off as anti-Catholic, nothing could be farther from the truth. What I am is STRONGLY against the unification of church and state. Exactly where we are headed today. Can you imagine? A church addressing on Sunday who to vote for? Not in my life or church will that happen. As far as reading Apostolic Letter on Mixed Marriages, I came off as mule-headed, what I meant to say was, I don't need to read someones opinion of something when my heart, soul, and mind tell me mixed-faith and mixed-race marriages are OK. If the point of the Apostolic Letter on Mixed Marriages is based in scripture then we must also consider stoning and killing disobedient children or the putting to death of cheating wives. After all God commanded that, heck a woman in Texas recently used it as a defense for killing her kids. My point here is this, if we use our own mind and heart to make the right decisions we then only need the church for our soul. Teach the bible and leave our minds to us.

Here is a quote from an article I wrote a while back,

"Using the Bible and its many "Laws", the religious Conservative right wishes to dictate morality to the rest of the populace in the courts, from the pulpit, and in the Constitution. The Bible contains countless barbaric and tyrannical laws, most handed down by God. The religious right would have us believe that these laws were written by mortal man, thus rendering them fallible, but as we shall see the majority of these laws were derived from the word of God. The same is true for the atrocities mentioned in the Bible. These were not acts committed by mortal man alone, they were acts commanded by God. The conservative right fails to see the hypocrisy of this "picking and choosing" of God's Laws to enforce. On one hand they condemn homosexuality and same-sex marriage while ignoring laws such as, "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death." (Exodus 12). Religious conservatives would argue that Biblical Law is obsolete and no longer valid today. Using their own argument couldn't it be said that the condemnation of homosexuality also be obsolete? Our forefathers saw the need to separate church and state, the laws of God, and the laws of man. One can only imagine a Constitution based solely on God's word."

http://www.ypeace.org/conservative.html

[Servo300]

54. It is not appropriate

for Mass to be used as an occasion to tell people how to vote. (Most parishes I have belonged to discourage the distribution of "voter guides" and such flyers).

Some Catholic newspapers, websites, or other publications may endorse specific candidates, but they do not represent any sort of "official" Church teaching.

My point in bring up the Catechism and Documents of Vatican II was to suggest that it might be wise to have the correct information on what the actual teachings of the Church, and the reasons behind them, before condemning them wholesale as racist or bigoted.

As far as whether you agree with the teachings, that is certainly your choice. But sweeping statements distort and misrepresent what those teachings are.

[MichaelHarris]

57. Have you seen this?

"Catholics who vote for politicians who support abortion rights or gay marriage will be banned from Communion until they have "recanted their positions" and confessed their sin, a Colorado bishop warned.

Bishop Michael Sheridan of Colorado Springs said any Catholic who does not reflect church teaching in the voting booth "makes a mockery of that faith and belies his identity as a Catholic."

Sheridan's May 1 directive is believed to be the first in the nation that would apply to voters the same controversial sanctions proposed by some bishops against abortion-rights Catholic politicians."

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/May/05142004/nation_w/166397.asp

Tell me what biblical basis for "discouraging" mixed-faith marriages the Catechism and Documents of Vatican II uses? What evidence does it rely upon? My first guess it would rely heavily on statistics of failed marriages between mixed-faiths. Was the "statements" from these failed marriages documented? i.e were surveys taken indicating there marriages failed because of their mixed-faith? What influence did the various churches have in "contributing" to these failed marriages? Did the churches discuss the "horrors" of mixed-faith marriage? My point here is this, It probably wasn't an issue until the church made it an issue.

[Servo300]

60. What, are they going to ask

how you voted while you're in line for Communion? The very premise is ridiculous.

As far as an example of Church teaching is concerned, here's a link to read. It's not that long:

http://www.catholicdoors.com/misc/marriage/mixed.htm

[MichaelHarris]

61. readin' it now but

so it doesn't bother you that this Bishop is "telling" people how to vote? As a Catholic would you choose Communion or your vote?

[Servo300]

63. I don't agree with every Church teaching,

but my conscience is my guide on receiving Communion.

[MichaelHarris]

66. response to reading the Apostolic Letter of Pope Paul VI

Ok before I start I look at religion a little differently than you. Neither of us is wrong really we just follow a different set of rules.

"The Church is indeed aware that mixed marriages, precisely because they admit differences of religion and are a consequence of the division among Christians, do not, except in some cases, help in re-establishing unity among Christians"

If, as Christians, we all except Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, as the only thing the Bible really asks us to do, be different? After all we do believe in the same Lord. Could it be that, competition for the collection plate has grown more competitive? If you own the only football team in the world who ya gonna compete against? Whose gonna buy tickets?

"And in the family itself the fulfillment of the Gospel teachings is more difficult because of diversities in matters of religion, especially with regard to those matters which concern Christian worship and the education of the children."

Is there a different Jesus for the Baptists? What about the Methodists? Whose Jesus is better? Whose Jesus is right? What religion teaches the Bible better than the other? We all use the same book basically.

"For these reasons the Church, conscious of her duty, discourages the contracting of mixed marriages, for she is the most desirous that Catholics be able in matrimony to attain to perfect union of mind and full communion of life"

Only Catholics can attain a "perfect union"? I can't have "full communion of life"?

"Even difficulties arising in marriage between a Catholic and an unbaptized person can be overcome through pastoral watchfulness and skill."

Is it not possible for two people to love, grow, learn, and love without "pastoral watchfulness"? Are these difficulties inevitable?

"Neither in doctrine nor in law does the Church place on the same level a marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic, and one between a Catholic and an unbaptized person for, as the Second Vatican Council declared, men who, though they are not Catholics, "believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are brought into a certain, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."

So my wife and ARE NOT on the same level as two married Catholics? Imperfect? Less than acceptable in the eyes of the Catholic Church? Touch of bigotry there. I hold no one less than me or above me. We are ALL equal.

"one cannot ignore the difficulties inherent even in mixed marriages"

examples would have really helped here

"the Catholic partner in a mixed marriage is obliged, not only to remain steadfast in the faith, but also, as far as possible, to see to it that the children be baptized and brought up in that same faith"

keep the future of the collection plate secure I guess

This last part I'm going to lump together because it shows there really wouldn't be any issues between mixed-faith marriages if the Church didn't cause it. If you don't make it an issue, it usually isn't.

"since such a marriage is by its nature an obstacle to the full spiritual communion of the married parties."

"entered into without previous dispensation by the local Ordinary, is invalid"

"sincere promise to do all in his power to have all the children baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church." Why burden the family into making a choice between one religion or another unless your goal is to cause friction.

"At an opportune time the non-Catholic party must be informed of these promises which the Catholic party has to make, so that it is clear that he is cognizant of the promise and obligation on the part of the Catholic" so its OK if the non-Catholic becomes subservient to the Catholic?

"Catholics are under an excommunication..."

1. marriage before a non-Catholic minister
2. children or any child be educated outside the Catholic Church;
3. present their children to non-Catholic ministers to be baptized
4. knowingly present their children to be educated or trained in a non-Catholic religion.

OK so earlier you said "recommended" now do those threats sound fair? We have the same God, the same book, the same saviour but if we let our children decide their faith we could be excommunicated? After all we both accepted Jesus as our saviour Catholics want more?

Seriously, this is in no way a bashing of the Catholic faith but I just can't hold with a church so steeped in exclusivity. Its almost as if they hold themselves higher than anyone else. My God doesn't teach that, My God teaches equality and love.

on edit: that paper never once mentioned any statistics on failed mixed-race marriages. Facts go along way. Not one Biblical reference.

[mumon]

107. And I DISCOURAGE people from

supporting these people.

[Frodo]

25. Let's take those one at a time.

Since when does any church have the right to tell anyone

who to marry? Never - Who not to marry? That's part of their job. Marriage being a religious, not civil institution.
Who to vote for? Never - I guess unless it's some gross violation (mass murderer or something)
Who is eligible for communion? Always. They have a right to determine who is and who is not within the religion.

[MichaelHarris]

35. So

if a Catholic has to decide between taking communion or voting for a particular pro-choice candididate thats a good thing? In one or another they are trying to control the vote. As far as communion, I don't know alot, my wifes the Catholic but it would be very, very hard for me to be a member of a church who didn't accept everyone, fully into the faith from day one.

[Frodo]

41. Not even close.

Nobody said "you have to decide between voting for Kerry and receiving communion". At most (and several bishops have disagreed) the church has said to the individual "you cannot claim to be a catholic in good standing AND support abortion". They're basically saying (as they have for two thousand years) "you can't receive communion is you are in a state of unrepented serious sin" - that could include adultery or robbery or whatever. And they DO get to decide what they consider "sin" (that's what you have a church for). If you don't agree (and there's no reason you have to or should) you don't put yourself under their religious authority.

What right does some Jewish leader have to tell me that I can't eat pork? None at all.... unless I want to call myself Jewish. They can also tell me I can't partake of the pork BBQ here in NC just to win the votes of some locals.

my wifes the Catholic but it would be very, very hard for me to be a member of a church who didn't accept everyone, fully into the faith from day one.

What then is the difference between Catholic and Baptist if neither church can tell you that your beliefs don't match theirs? Baptist and Bahai'? Bahai and Jewish? The point of a religion is not that they get their own funny jokes to tell on weekends. They have a responsibility to identify right and wrong. If you don't agree with them - fine... but don't call yourself a member.

[MichaelHarris]

45. you may wanna

run that one by the people in this guys diocese or whatever its called,

"Catholics who vote for politicians who support abortion rights or gay marriage will be banned from Communion until they have "recanted their positions" and confessed their sin, a Colorado bishop warned.

Bishop Michael Sheridan of Colorado Springs said any Catholic who does not reflect church teaching in the voting booth "makes a mockery of that faith and belies his identity as a Catholic."

Sheridan's May 1 directive is believed to be the first in the nation that would apply to voters the same controversial sanctions proposed by some bishops against abortion-rights Catholic politicians."

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/May/05142004/nation_w/166397.asp

On aside note, does this guy get communion?

"A former Catholic priest scheduled to stand trial later this month abruptly pleaded guilty to sexually abusing two teenage girls and was sentenced Thursday to eight years in prison."

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-priest14.html

I don't call myself a member of the Catholic church, I would never let my personel life be controled like that.

[Frodo]

47. Whoa.

I hadn't seen that. I think he's the only one, but I admit I was unaware anyone was being told how to vote.

On aside note, does this guy get communion?

Depends. Did either fo the girls have an abortion or vote for someone who did?

Hey! Cut the guy some slack... at least they were female! :eyes:

[MichaelHarris]

53. LOL

well thats true, at least it wasn't alter boys. This guy just released that statement but he's been threatening to do it for a while. Some rise in defense by saying, "well its an isolated event", my only answer to that is, If one church sways one vote, thats one vote too many.

[Frodo]

56. Well, I tend to agree. But remember

We've had quite a few churches advocating our candidates for years now. Even busing them to the polling places after special Tuesday meetings.

They probably ALL ought to stay out of politics... but it cuts both ways.

[MichaelHarris]

59. I totally agree

they should stay out of politics. I just find it hard to accept any other reason for "discouraging" mixed-faith marriages as anything but bigotry. I may be totally wrong but someone telling me I shouldn't have married a Catholic or someone telling her they "discourage" her from marrying me just strikes me as wrong. It almost has a "hitleresque" ring to me. Purity of the races kinda deal.

[matt2050]

98. ain't that the truth.

"Hey! Cut the guy some slack... at least they were female!"

No kidding!

Being a very very lapsed Catholic myself, you would think the church would shut the hell up. People in glass houses and all.

[Malva Zebrina]

68. there are thousands of marriges between people of different faiths

that have been perfectly wonderful, loving marriages and that have produced perfectly wonderful, stable and productive children. Probably millions. The fear is unfounded and is an attempt to establish religious and political hegemony, rather than produce loving relationships between people. This divides people into "you are with me or against me" type of black and white thinking and that is the goal, imo.

[damnraddem]

77. Well, Catholic-Catholic marriages have plenty of stress -- especially ...

if one of the parties is dumb enough to listen to the hierarchy.

But the real issue is that interfaith marriages are suspected of adding stress to the hierarchy's control over Catholics so married.

[dawn]

94. Well, I think it's up to the couple in question to decide.

I'm not Christian, and my husband is. Yeah, we have our disagreements, but it works.

And we aren't having kids, so it's really no big deal.

I'm telling you, this church tries to control the lives of their parishoners. Sorry, but I am so happy I left when I was a kid.

no offense to the happy catholics on here, but I just couldn't stomach the hypocrisy. Some people do get a lot of meaning from it though, more power to them. :)

[veganwitch]

4. note to catholic church

when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

im reminded of an email i was sent a long time ago with a list of "comments" from supposedly real evalutation reports. one was

"it has become apparent that this person only opens their mouth to remove one foot and replace it with the other."

[Submariner]

5. No surprise here

Nuns taught me nothing but hate and bigotry towards non-catholics for 12 years. Catholicism is nothing but another disgusting cult that should be shunned and put out of business.

[lil-petunia]

33. ye olde catholic church -

you got that right. It took me years of drugs and alcohol before I saw straight through their s&it. (just kidding.)

What I really love is how the church dares lecture us on the issues of sex and sexual morals. I guess 350+ priests diddling little Johnny and little Louise behind the alter didn't happen, huh? So if a priest does it with a kid, it's ok? but if consenting adults do it for fun, it's a sin? Great logic.

Lenin was right, it is an opiate, one that seems to exert mind control over our south east with incredible efficiency.
Worse yet, dey be bushies.

[koopie57]

85. I grew up in a small town

almost everyone was Catholic and went to the Catholic school and maybe 20 kids went to the public school. One kid from our neighborhood went to the public school. He was one of the nicest kids around and several times there was a conversation about, "How sad it was that such a nice guy can't go to heaven. We could never figure it out."

I grew up Catholic, but I think that any organization that tries to exert such a big influence over someone and their choices is not a good thing. I can understand why someone would equate it to a cult.

[NNN0LHI]

6. Wasn't Nazi Germany made up of mostly Christians? n/t

[skooooo]

7. Hey John Paul??? -- STFU!

[goodhue]

8. boo hiss

eom

[mmm]

9. I must say, they do cover all the bases

This is very sad. The Church is persecuting Muslims
when Ecumenical acceptance is indicated

[PurityOfEssence]

10. More babies! Must have lots more babies!

We're already drowning in a sea of people, but we must win the war of world domination! Who cares if you can care for them? Who cares how it destroys the earth? Must win, must crush all opposition!

Who cares how it strains the social net and extended families of the poor? Who cares how it leaves the lost members of huge families without adequate parent time? Must control earth. Must swamp heretics.

If you think I'm just talking about Catholics, remember: the fundy Protestants, Muslims, Mormons and Hindus are thinking in precisely the same terms.

It's like the Rio Conference on the Environment in '92: the Catholic Church pulled all strings possible to get its way, which it did, to make sure population control wasn't even addressed. At the time, Jacques Cousteau wrote an interesting article stating that it essentially pulled the carpet out from under the scientific community.

[leetrisck]

11. And Baptists prefer not to mary Catholics and Methodists

prefer not to marry Presbyterians, etc.

[bleedingheart]

12. Your hit the nail on the head...no religious organization wants their

members to marry outside the faith.....its just the catholic church publishes them as rules.....and perhaps the other churches do as well.

I always like to think of the religious conversion issues like the soft drink battles.

Pepsi wants to convert Coke drinkers and vice versa...
Pepsi wants you to drink only Pepsi...and request it wherever you go...and they don't want you to drink Coke...lest you be diverted...

[happynewyear]

13. the word is "discourages"

I was never taught to HATE Protestants or any other religion in all of the years I've been around the Church. In fact, I never knew another religion existed until I was in my late teenage years.

This is nothing new with the Catholic church. They encourage Catholics to marry other Catholics but it is not a requirement. However, if you want to be married in the Church, it is a requirement. Most of us really don't care IMO.

[Servo300]

22. yes they can

They encourage Catholics to marry other Catholics but it is not a requirement. However, if you want to be married in the Church, it is a requirement.

Not true.

Catholics can marry non-Catholics and still be married in the Church.

[bleedingheart]

46. I married my Calvinist husband in my Catholic church...

after I signed the papers saying that my kiddies would be catholics...and next weekend my son makes first holy communion to the horror of my protestant relatives...hee hee....

The catholic church doesn't recognize the marriage of catholics to people of another faith if they marry in the other faith...that I do know...they do however recognize the marriage of protestants to protestants in a protestant church....

[bleedingheart]

44. I didn't say anything about hating...I wasn't taught to hate in Catholic

CCD classes.

[MichaelHarris]

55. the problem with words like "discourages"

is that members of a church take it as law or as a rule. They take away the meaning of the word "discourages" and use the word, "teaches" or "law" in its place. I'm not that hip on the Bible but I would bet it "discourages" in very few places. What it does do is "command" in a lot of places.

[Art_from_Ark]

16. Actually, Methodist and Presbyterian services are very similar

The two churches are, in fact, "sisters", although the Methodists do seem to be a bit more active when it comes to charitable and community service work.

[bloom]

19. Actually, when I attended Presbyterian and Methodist churches

nobody ever said anything about marrying within Christianity, let alone within the denomination.

I think you're making that up.

[MaineDem]

14. My head is going to explode

I thought we were past all this.

These dotty old men in their dresses need to stick to reading their breviaries and saying Mass. This is beginning to resemble meddling in politics and it bothers me.

[Baltimoreboy]

28. Dresses?

Are you sure you don't have OTHER issues with the church?

It is reasonable for a church to URGE its followers to marry other members of the same faith because that eliminates religious squabbles.

[KittyWampus]

49. False Reasoning: Interfaith Marriages CAN Foster Greater Understanding

and acceptance. Among the couple and their progeny.

Is the role of the Church to perpetuate the power of its own heirarchy or to help its parishoners find spirtual enlightment and fulfillment?

[Baltimoreboy]

72. The role of the church

Is to advocate its followers obey its beliefs.

I'm betting marriage outside of the faith sort of undermines that.

[KittyWampus]

89. Actually, Interfaith Marriage EXPANDs Ones Spirituality

and in no way need undermine anyone's set of beliefs.

Spirituality is NOT a zero-sum game.

Having a partner who has differing beliefs might very well end up STRENGTHENING ones own Understanding by broadening onees Tolerance and Perspective.

Why should the Catholic Church feel threatened?

How insecure can they get?

Is it healthy for the Church to be so controlling?

[Baltimoreboy]

95. So, that is your opinion it seems

And the Catholic Church has a different one. Since THEY are the ones making this decision, it seems correct that they follow THEIR beliefs.

Tolerance is wonderful, but embracing other religions is not the job of the church. Their job is to promote their own beliefs.

And they are not being "controlling" here. They are advocating a position. If they wished to control, they could eliminate all Catholic marriages with other faiths -- ban them from their churches and excommunicate all who participate in them elsewhere. Now THAT would be "controlling."

[dawn]

96. 2nd that!

But that's exactly what many churches are afraid of...their members going out and expanding their mind. Horror of horrors!

[eyesroll]

15. Well, most religons discourage out-of-faith marriages

so I (a non-Catholic) understand why the Vatican would say so as well.

But.

To single out Muslims as specifically problematic is (to borrow a phrase) disturbing. This isn't going to help.

[madrchsod]

17. maybe the old guy

should be more worried about the abuse cases in the united states and god only knows the rest of the world than marriage.

[emad]

20. As the Lifelong Head of the Church of the Universal Aetheist

I truly recommend that none of my flock marry into ANY patriarchal deist organisations, especially ones that :

ask for money
tell you to share your husband with up to 3 other women
molest/rape your kids
tell you who to vote for
promise you untold riches when you are dead

Amen

[PfcHammer]

24. Breaking. Vatican Discourages Marriage Between the Right Handed and

Lefties. Right is right and left handed people
are sinister. There is also an increased chance of
spawning more defective lefty children.

[aquart]

26. No Chrismakka?

Christianity has never recovered from the Flaming Sword of Islam. Just makes it go weak all over.

[bobthedrummer]

27. It's why this Christian doesn't go to any church-it's MKULTRA time.

[displacedtexan]

34. Ah! So... you worship Saint Mattress!

The patron saint of sleeping in on Sunday mornings!

Marrying within one's faith makes one more inclined to tithe...

Follow the money!

[justjones]

29. They forgot the mention...

Whites should marry blacks, asians shouldn't marry latinos, and Vulcans shouldn't marry human beings or any other intergallactic species but their own.

When exactly did people start listening to the antiquated madness coming out of the Vatican again? Can we please go back to ignoring them, if not now, when we get the religious zealots out of the White House? Please...

jones

[CO Liberal]

30. If They Did This Years Ago, I'd Only Have 2 Cousins

My mother was from an Irish Catholic family, and she narried a Catholic - my dad. But her sister marries a Jewish man, and her brother married a Protestant woman. So all my cousins on my mother's side of the family are not Catholic.

As for myself, my first wife was Catholic, my second a member of the Church of Christ, and my present wife was raised a Baptist. Couurently, neither of us practices any religion.

[Hand]

32. This truly sucks...

My wife was raised Catholic, but her father was Methodist; this was defined as a "mixed marriage". In school they taught her that her father was going to burn in hell when he died unless she prayed for him regularly. These prayers wouldn't get him off the hook, however; it just meant that he'd get to spend several millennia in purgatory before eventually being allowed into heaven.

Now that's just plain sick--they taught her this as a child!

:mad:

Decades later, by the way, she and I are both Buddhist! THPFFFFT to you, JP2!

:evilgrin:

[GiovanniC]

36. Jon Stewart the Other Night...

"The Catholic Church, apparently tired of coasting on the moral high ground of child molestation..."

[Just Me]

37. BAH! I'm glad I am a spiritual person, not a religious one. n/t

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[BiggJawn]

42. How much more can they "discourage" it than with Excommunication?

That's what my mom's Priest threatened her with when she married my dad... and that was almost 50 years ago!

[WillyT]

48. This Is A Major Indicator Of An Institution In Trouble !!!

When 70 to 80 percent of your own flock ain't following your precepts, just go ahead and piss off even more of 'em!!!

Buddha anyone???

:wtf:

[arwalden]

50. You're Right...

it's sick.

-- Allen

[lupita]

52. Left Catholic Church yesterday...after Letter printed in Oregonian

After Archbishop Vlazny said:
"Catholics who publicly disagree with serious church teaching on such matters as abortion or same-sex marriage should refrain from receiving Holy Communion."

This was printed in the OREGONIAN.

So, I am no longer a Catholic.

[PassingFair]

86. Congratulations, du-fan!!!!

Baby steps, baby steps. May I recommend "Losing Faith in Faith" by Dan Barker? You've got some thinking to do...

P.S.: Both my husband and my best friend call themselves "Recovering Catholics". It's a process, baby.

[BonjourUSA]

58. Sometimes the result of this kind of speech is devastating ?

I remember the anger of a friend who was a young medic in Africa after the Pope's speech about condom and AIDS in Mexico. He said many years of hard work had been annihilated with some words.

[Just Me]

62. At the very least, this is divisive during a period of diviseness. n/t

[Peter1x9]

64. I used to be a catholic

For a long time after that I wasn't much of anything until recently.
I joined another religion and in their holy books it is explicitly stated that you are allowed to marry people from other religions. It also pushes equality between people of all races and between men and women.

Here's more information if you want it.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shraby]

67. I am Catholic and

the church has lost all credibility with me after the sex abuse scandal. They have no moral standing anymore.

[Baltimoreboy]

73. You despise religion

Yet feel the need to critique it?

I'm Catholic and I'm not "brainwashed." Your comments are obnoxious and offensive, and worse it appears you intended them to be.

Claiming men who wear robes are "some creepy old guys in a dress and a pointy hat" is out and out bigotry and possibly homophobia as well.

No matter what YOU want, an agnostic or atheist is unlikely to get elected president, especially if they espouse views like yours.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BonjourUSA]

69. Do we need a holy book for having an opinion ?

For me, I love my freedom too much for that.

[AndyTiedye]

71. Now We Know How Far the Catholic Church Will Go for Bush*

[GermanDJ]

70. Interesting ...

NOT!

The Vatican has no business telling anybody whom to marry or not. I'm a religious person myself, but at the same time I regard most of churches institutions and rules as some kind of joke.

I mean, take the m celibacy: Over a long period of time there was nothing objectionable about married priests. Then suddenly the powers that be (humans, that is) decide that priests have to be celibate or else ...
That's ridiculous. It's all about exercising power over other human beings and has absolutely nothing to do with religion IMHO.

[dryan]

75. Question...

With all due respect, how come the only (or the vast majority) of anti-religious threads on DU seem to be pointed at the Roman Catholic church? I could rant all day and night about the doctrine of the Baptists, Methodists, Mormons, etc. but don't. It's getting a little old folks.

[Bridget Burke]

79. Because it's an old tradition in the USA

Some of the founding fathers had philosophical beliefs that transcended established religion but most of them were at least nominally Protestant. Many of them were members of strongly anti-Papist sects.

The Catholic Church is the church of foreigners. The first large numbers of Catholics arriving in the USA were poor immigrants. Irish first, then Italians, etc. The country took over lands formerly colonized by the French & Spanish--more "foreign" Catholics!

And the Church has mysteries that frighten those of more Puritan backgrounds. Nowadays, you'll find atheist & agnostic Puritans.

Just some thoughts from a former Catholic; I'm interested in religion but am probably agnostic. But I was raised down here in the bible belt & I've heard it all.

[GermanDJ]

81. Well ...

I was raised as a catholic, so I feel qualified to comment on this religion. Especially after seeing the double-standards at work: The Vatican for example condemns the use of condoms but at the same time it produces and sells them.

So I think it's justified to say that the main purpose of this institution is to maintain and exercise power over people. Which is not to say that the catholic church does no good. I think there are a great many positive examples, like social work done by catholic institutions, resistance against human rights abuses organized by South American priests, etc. Personally I know one very open minded Catholic priest, which whom I had a lot of very inspiring conversations. Even though our opinion on the pope couldn't diverge more than it does. He's completely pro-Vatican.

[Randers]

90. Maybe it's because the "Vatican" is the one trying to influence politics

and this is a political board!?!

Maybe it's because the "Vatican" is the one trying to influence politics in a way that could be detrimental to the Democrats presumptive candidate!?!

Maybe it's because the "Vatican" is the one trying to influence politics in a way that undoes many political advances many of us appreciate!?!


Go ahead - start a thread about how the Quakers are trying to influence politics. Here is a link: http://www.quaker.org/


If you can find something you have a problem with, I would be happy to hear what it is.

Quakers don't have something like the "Vatican" trying to get people to affect the polical process, but they do have the Friends Committee on National Legislation. Maybe there is something there you don't like. See: http://www.fcnl.org/

I think you should try for some equal time. Go after those Quakers. You never know what they are going to try to do next.

[TexasMexican]

74. Seems reasonable enough

back in the 80s my Aunt married some muslim guy from Jordan who was in the US.

After not too long he started getting abusive and tried to beat her once.

He apparently didnt know much about Mexican women because she got a frying pan and hit him with it. After that he took off and never came back, she later got a divorce.

Women shouldnt marry abusive husbands and definately should not move to countries which condone them.

[Randers]

88. That doesn't have anything to do with it.

I could just as easily give you the example of my aunt who went from being a protestant to marrying a Catholic - and she subsequently became a Catholic.

So he was the abusive one.

Abusive people come in all religions/non-religions and people don't necessarily know when they marry them. I don't think mixing the religions has anything to do with it either.


I think the Catholic church is returning to it's more controlling self after loosening up a little for awhile.

[TexasMexican]

102. ...

Just said she became Catholic, so he was the abusive one.

So was your Aunts husband actually abusive? or are you just implying that because she became Catholic that its evidence that he abused her?

I dont think it has as much to do with religion as it has to do with culture.

I dont think the culture of oppressing women is tied hand in hand with people here in the West, while it is in places where Islam is the dominant religion.

[Randers]

103. He is/was very machismo and a total control freak

He has attitudes like women are dirt (he told her she was worse than dirt), she was expected to do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted....

She had to call the police when he threatened her with a gun... among other things.

She's perfectly happy being a Catholic, that has nothing to do with it.

[damnraddem]

76. When I was a Catholic growing up, the Church opposed ALL ...

interfaith marriages -- and they were then worried about Lutherans, Baptists, Episcopalians, Presbyrtarians, and so on. The hierarchy is not happy unless it's trying to jerk around the lives of the laity.

At least they practice what they preach: they don't molest Muslim altar boys. ;-)

[Boat Guy]

80. Missing The Bigger Point

What a lot of this discussion seems to be missing is the larger point that the Catholic Church, just like most other major organized religious systems is based on a top-down hierarchical structure, whereby the Pope as the spiritual descendant of the first church leaders, hands down edicts that the leaders expect to be followed by the masses. It's an archaic method of control to be sure, but not an uncommon one derived from an earlier culture where the overwhelming majority of practitioners were unlearned, unwashed, and (in the eyes of the Church anyway) desperately in need of moral guidance, which NATURALLY only they had the authority to impart.

The idea that most people have sufficiently advanced moral/ethical development to actually be able to make up their own minds about certain teachings and practices is a fairly recent phenomenon, and like most huge, lethargic organizations, the Catholic Church is very reluctant to relinquish their ancient power to dictate the rules that define who is and who isn't a True Believer.

Heck, I'm sure there are lots of Red Caps in Rome who still today spit whenever the name of Martin Luther is uttered, so this sort of attitude, while primitive and childish, is at least on a certain level understandable. After all, what's the point of being at the top if you can't make the hundreds of millions of faithful below do what you tell them to?

[Randers]

92. Good post...n/t

[skippysmom]

78. Argh.

So I guess this Catholic better dump her non-Catholic husband. Oh wait...divorce is against the rules too.

[Raster]

82. MEMO to the Vatican: GO AWAY!

[SammyBlue]

84. Conservative Idiots at the Vatican

Hey. . .Pope. . .you don't playa the game, you don't makea the rules. My parents are interfaith celebrating their 30th this year. It's because of this intolerance I rejected the Church and got my Bar Mitzvah and why my mother converted.

Hey, Pope. . .shut up!

[stepnw1f]

87. The High Road for The Church

They seem to want to appear politically biased in reaction to their own public admission that the Bush War is immoral.

[PartyPooper]

91. Well, if ever I joined a church again it would be the Episcopalian Church.

For the most part, they're tolerant and they accept us gay folks.

Maybe, just maybe...my partner and I finally will be able to be married after 30+ years together.

*sigh* I knew there was something I liked about Henry VIII.

O8)

[Catt03]

93. This makes me very angry

I have a problem with men like Sheridan dictating damming and misogynistic advice such as I cannot receive communion if I vote for a pro choice candidate.

The truth is why should I take direction from anyone who is a representative of an organization that contained information about thousand of priests who sexually abused thousands of children? Not only did they contain it, they lied about it for over twenty years
because they believe their pedophiles should be "forgiven". Now they are stating I should not receive communion because of my vote?


This is not about God. It is about politics and it enrages me.

[IconoclastIlene]

104. Its all about POWER; men over women.

Most organized religion is a cleverly devised way to perpetuate the enslavement of women, it just depends on the degree, from one religion to the next.

Organized religion is the evil; along with those who wish to use it for their own devise.

[Pachamama]

99. Screw the Catholic Church! They lost me years ago & hopefully will lose..

...a lot more people after this kind of announcement....As a "recovering Catholic" who lost the faith in the Catholic Church years ago and never looked back, I can only hope that their hypocrisy and outrageousness like this and the latest about Catholics not taking sacrament if they have voted for any Politician that doesn't share the views/teachings of the Catholic faith.

There is a reason for separation of church and state....Maybe some more Catholics will stop drinking the kool-aid and leave the Church as I have.

[donotpassgo]

101. I quit...

If I had a Catholic membership card, I'd tear it up.

Great example of Freeper logic. See...here's the loving warming glow of the peaceful Jesus Christ in words

"There is no such thing as a muslim "man", they're all cowards and some form of sub-human vermin"

According to conservative theology, Jesus wants us to kill the A-Rabs. He died so that we may evicerate all manner of dark skinned people. "The Passion" Taught us that Jesus hates you...if you're gay, Democrat, or anything else besides a white Midwest corn-pone Republican. AMERICA AKHBAR, I guess.

I'M SOOOOOOOOOO ANGRY RIGHT NOW. Good thing MY Jesus taught me to turn the other cheek.

[dArKeR]

105. Vatican warns against marriages with Muslims - TT

NY TIMES NEWS SERVICE , ROME
Sunday, May 16, 2004,Page 6

In an official church document released Friday, Vatican officials discouraged marriage between Catholics and Muslims -- between Catholic women and Muslim men especially.

When "a Catholic woman and a Muslim wish to marry," the document says, "bitter experience teaches us that a particularly careful and in-depth preparation is called for."

It also says "profound cultural and religious differences" exist between the two faiths, particularly concerning the rights of women, who are referred to as "the least protected member of the Muslim family."

The document, written by the Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People, sets these issues in a context of globalism and easy travel that encourages the mixing of religions. Although it makes no mention of the conflicts in the Middle East, its release comes during a time of heightened anger in the Muslim world.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/05/16/2003155705

[mumon]

106. Geez, isn't it about time it was said loud and clear:

Why take advice in sexual matters from a bunch of old men who are nominally "celibate" but who've covered up rampant pedophilia within their own ranks???

These people have simply not a scintilla of a right to tell people who they should spend their lives with and in what religious practice.

I'm sorry, but frankly I find the morality of such pronouncements the equivalent of sewage.