New study: You can't live on minimum wage

[Bozita]

Source: Detroit Free Press

New study: You can't live on minimum wage
12:23 AM, May. 31, 2011
BY L. L. BRASIER
DETROIT FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

-snip-

The Basic Economic Security Tables for Michigan, a study that analyzes the cost of essential needs for singles and families across Michigan, found the cost of providing basic necessities -- such as shelter, food and transportation -- far exceeds minimum wage and the paychecks of people working full-time in low-paying job categories.

Among the findings:

• Single Michigan residents without children must earn $12.24 an hour to support themselves.

• A mother with two young children -- like Thomas -- needs $24.49 an hour to house, clothe and feed her children. That's three times the minimum wage.

The report was done by Wider Opportunities for Women and the Michigan League for Human Services.

-snip-

Read more: http://www.freep.com/article/20110531/NEWS06/105310351/...

[Orrex]

1. Stop the presses!

[slackmaster]

2. I can't recall a time when a person could have lived on minimum wage in my area

I had my first job in 1975 when I was a student.

[Warpy]

21. Minimum wage has never been indexed to inflation, which is its major flaw.

The double digit inflation of the late 70s and early 80s has battered the minimum wage and Republicans have never allowed it to recover.

The original minimum wage was designed to support a family of four on a "thrifty" budget above the poverty line. Now it won't allow a single person adequate food, safe housing, and routine medical care.

This should be a scandal. Thanks to the corporate press, it is not.

[slackmaster]

24. The federal minimum wage pre-dates any official federal poverty level by decades

The first minimum wage was created in 1938. Official poverty-level measures date back to the early 1960s based on data (and extrapolated) back to only 1955.



http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

It's clear that minimum wage now is not as high as it was in the mid-1960s in terms of buying power, but it has NEVER been sufficient to bring a family to the official poverty level.

People have always needed GOOD jobs. Minimum wage jobs have always been useful only as supplemental income, for entry-level work, for students, etc.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

28. The point is taken...but...

$22K in 1938 was very well off. (Iow, the graph is deficient)

[a2liberal]

49. Looks to me like the graph is indexed already

Compared to the numbers in the link (and seeing the constant poverty level line)

[slackmaster]

51. Sorry, I left out the link to the page the chart is from - It's in 2010 dollars

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html

Buying power for minimum wage peaked in 1968 at the equivalent of $10.04 (2010 dollars), which is not a living wage in most parts of the country.

[Capitalocracy]

186. I'd love to see a graph comparing average wages versus minimum

throughout the years as well. And it should be a weighted average... say, an average from among the bottom 80%

[Tiggeroshii]

106. Now I looked this up recently, and found that the minimum wage in the 30s, indexed with inflation

...is still about 5 dollars. Is there likely something wrong with the information I received?

Edit to add: Minimum wage in '38 was $.30. According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, that's about 4.79 now.

http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

I'm wondering if the min. Wage was actually ever meant to be livable...

[awoke_in_2003]

160. when the model A rolled out...

in the early 1900's, Henry Ford paid his people $5 an hour. No, minimum wage was never meant to be livable- it is something that politicians of both parties use to make themselves feel better when thye "increase" it.

[Art_from_Ark]

193. Actually, that was $5 a day

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-54463_18670_18...

But the gold in a $5 gold piece from that time would be worth about $370 today.

[Cleita]

111. I was able to live on minimum wage when I was in

college back in the early sixties. I only worked thirty hours a week and I was paid $1.25 an hour, yet it was enough to scrimp by with. Also, rents weren't through the roof back then either. You could rent a decent one bedroom with a roommate or two, feed yourself, have enough bus fare to get around to school and job and still maybe be able to see a movie on the weekend.

[kevinbgoode]

140. I agree - it sure wasn't a great existence. . .but I was barely

making above minimum wage in the early-mid 70's. . .and I was able to make ends meet. Of course, my rent was only $90 a month (two bedrooms, one roommate); electricity share was about $18 a month. We lived on a tight budget, but still had enough to socialize on occasion. Heck, I can remember when my one big deal every month was buying a new, decorative coffee mug, which we hung proudly on the kitchen walls. Buying something as basic as a lamp was a major purchase and I'd save for a month for a good one - or for a vacuum cleaner.

Still, most of my friends were in about the same situation at the time - the only difference being that back then, we had hope and opportunities to eventually move ahead into a living wage. Of course, some of us have seen that erode over the years - I have more than one old friend who lives (again) basically the same as we did 40 years ago after layoffs and being delegated to minimum wage jobs as they grew older.

[SheilaT]

156. Yep. My very first job as a nurse's aid

in 1965 was a sub-minimum wage job -- back then far fewer jobs were covered by the minimum wage laws -- and paid $1.10/hour. I still lived at home then.

About a year later I moved out and was paid minimum which was still $1.25/hour, and I could manage on it. Just barely. I lived within walking distance of work, which helped a lot. And I had a roommate. Then the minimum was raised to $1.65/hour, and I was noticeably better off. Then I went to work for Ma Bell as an information operator and I was making slightly more. I bought my first car, a '59 VW beetle convertible. Life was good.

In the many years since then my fortunes have fluctuated somewhat, but I've always been able to manage. I think it helps a lot that I grew up in a family that had very, very little, and in high school whenever I had a babysitting job I'd use the money to buy food for the family. So now that I'm once again less well off, it's not all that hard to live frugally.

[librechik]

226. me too--I found cheap places to live ($50-65/month) and $1.65/hr I made w shift differential

(if i watched my budget)was plenty for a student to live a comfy existence, pay for my school& car expenses, go out occasionally. That was a golden era.

[awoke_in_2003]

159. "Minimum wage has never been indexed to inflation"...

Neither has the Cost of Living Index- oh, yeah, they look at a few things (energy costs not being one of them) and say "oh, inflation isn't bad". But the average Joe Schmoe feels the pinch of inflation. We feel it every f'ing day.

[slackmaster]

198. Nor has the Alternative Minimum Tax

[individual rights]

103. The cost of living varies widely from region to region...

A one-size-fits-all type of program fits some better than others.

[slackmaster]

108. That's why states and some localities have their own minimum wage laws

There's no way the federal government could accurately set rates everywhere.

[Tiggeroshii]

110. This makes sense

[awoke_in_2003]

162. and very few of the states....

have minimum wage laws higher than the Federal government's serf wages.

[quiller4]

167. 17 states have state minimum wages that are higher than the fed

Washington, Vermont and Oregon have state minimums tied to CPI for the state with automatic adjustments at the first of each calendar year.

[eridani]

182. Ten years befor that you could. My MIL was abandoned by her husband in 1965

She went out and got a minimum wage job and entered into a rent to buy deal for a 2 BR house.

[slackmaster]

199. I'd bet a bucket of beer she didn't live in San Diego

[eridani]

211. No, Seattle. What she did would have been impossible 15 years later n/t

[Uncle Joe]

3. No screaming puppy poop.

Thanks for the thread, Bozita.

[ejpoeta]

4. pretty sure i didn't need a study to tell me that. thanks though.

[Deep13]

5. I read about this in No Shit Magazine. nt

[xchrom]

6. plenty of DUers think mcjobs are a GREAT thing. nt

[BobbyBoring]

13. I am not among them

If the minimum wage was $20.00 an hr. it wouldn't be enough and we're a long way from that~

[wpelb]

95. How much would a crappy cheeseburger cost . . .

. . .if the minimum wage was twenty bucks an hour?

I guarantee you it would cost a lot more than it does now. I wouldn't be able to afford it, at least not very often. Neither would most other customers at Mickey D's. There would then be far fewer people working at Mickey D's or any other place where the primary labor force works at or near minimum wage.

Of course, if everything else started costing a lot more, and wages were likewise increased in all fields of employment, that double-sawbuck hourly wage would buy no more than eight or nine bucks an hour gets now.

[plumbob]

109. Cheeseburger would cost the same no matter the wage.

Business cannot charge on a cost-plus basis. They charge based on the intersection of supply and demand. The current price of crappy burgers is obviously as high as they think they can charge, or else they would charge more. Those companies are neither charitable nor kind - they go for all they can possibly get.

Same goes for taxes. Many people (not economists) think that raising taxes will raise prices. Nonsense. If they could charge more, they would.

Now, if wages were much higher, would a lot of crappy products disappear? Very likely, because workers would be able to work making better things, for instance. Would I cry if a lot of poverty-level products disappeared? Nope. Truth is, with better incomes, people buy better things - shoes that will last for years, for instance, because $400 shoes can last for decades (yes, and I have some), instead of having to buy poorly made crap at dollar stores for $12 that need replaced 6 times a year.

One last thing - business apologists always attack wages, never anything else. Oil goes up, up, up? Well, that's the market, they say? Electric rates rise? Just normal increases over time, they say. Water rates double in five years? Well, water's important. Executive bonuses jump? Well, we have to get the best people. But let some Joe Nobody on the line ask for 50 cents an hour more, and it's STOP! Communism or terrorists at work!! They're traitors to the USA and bad, greedy, awful people to boot! Far too many people are working in this country for wages, period. The extended family, a stable model, has been destroyed by making everyone old enough to work (and too old) to grub for enough money to buy crap.

There's a course attached to this, of course, that I teach twice a year to my seniors. My goal? Their financial independence and distance from squids, crooks, and leeches.

[chervilant]

169. Awesome rebuttal to that utter nonsense! n/t

.

[annabanana]

187. +1.. clearest post in the thread right here. . . . .n/t

[FBaggins]

209. One error in there

Part of "what they think they can charge" is driven by competition.

Burger King doesn't think they can charge $2 for the basic cheeseburger because McDonalds charges 99 cents for theirs and BKs isn't twice as good. Neither one will increase it much because Wendys also has a value menu... as does Taco Bell, etc.

It isn't that nobody will pay more for a basic burger... it's that nobody will pay one vendor more when the guy down the street charges less.

If costs or taxes go up such that McDonalds can't make a profit at 99 cents, they certainly will increase their prices... but people will pay it because the place down the street has raise their prices as well.


Take gas stations as an example. Gas was $3/gal not so long ago and last month is was closer to $4. $3 was not "as high as they thought they could charge or else they would charge more" because that's all that consumers would ever be willing to pay for a gallon of gas... it was "as high as they thought they could charge" because the station across the street could turn a profit at $3. If one station raised their price by .20, the guy across the street would get all the business. You can't claim that nobody would pay such a price and THAT's why the price was at $3... because it went to $4 just a few months later.

[Abq_Sarah]

228. You have a point about the taxes

Politicians could raise my taxes and I wouldn't be able to raise my prices or I would lose so many customers I wouldn't be able to stay in business. So instead, I'd take home less money like I've been doing for the last 3 years until I finally got fed up enough to fire my employees and close my business.

You charge what the market can bear. When you get to the point where expenses come close to what you can reasonably charge, you can only stay in business if you sell huge volumes. If you're a small business, you close your doors. The only industries that can get away with jacking up costs on a continual basis without putting themselves out of business are energy, food producers and health care.

[obxhead]

119. Bullshit.

in the 1990's McD's didn't have a dollar menu. Most of the crap there was $3 or more. The minimum wage at that point was in the $4.15 to 4.75 an hour range.

Today, the minimum wage is hovering just under the $8 an hour range, yet all the fast food co's are happy to dedicate an entire section of their menu for shit selling for a buck.

Your argument is a CLASSIC billionaire argument against raising min wage and it just doesn't hold water.

[Wednesdays]

144. Maybe with better wages,

we could eat something better than those crappy cheeseburgers.

[chervilant]

168. Wow...

I was going to post a rebuttal to your nonsense, but it looks like you already got your a** handed to you on a plate. lol

[guitar man]

172. It would cost what the market would bear

A crappy cheeseburger is a crappy cheeseburger no matter what the employees are making.

A better question is, what is it costing us now? I'm seeing fewer and fewer high school and college age kids working the drive through these days and more and more 30, 40 and 50 somethings working there, no doubt out of desperation because of the current job market due to outsourcing etc. People with families that work those kind of low end jobs often qualify for food stamps and other assistance. I'm not knocking them for taking it, but I have to ask, what is the lifestyle of the executive class in that biz costing my working class ass whether I buy the crappy cheeseburger or not, because I'm the one subsidizing what they are failing to provide in their payroll. God knows the big time exec class can't be put upon to pony up their fair share of taxes to pay for anything.

[Dokkie]

29. you may not know this

but even McJobs pays a little more than minimum wage. We now need a study to show us how many % of american workers earn minimum wage.

[TBF]

42. Really? Do enlighten us wise one. nt

[PotatoChip]

60. That is a good question

I've wondered about that too. As well as the demographics as to who is making minimum wage.

-I read somewhere several years ago that the largest demographic earning minimum wage was adult women and not the stereotypical teenager working for 'fun money'. I'd like to know if that is still true, (or if it ever was, since I don't remember the source).

[Recursion]

82. BLS has it

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2006.htm

Mostly part-time young workers in food service.

[PotatoChip]

87. Interesting. Plenty of good info

Thanks for the link.

[Ter]

50. They are, for 16 year olds that live at home

If they just have a cell phone bill, $200 a week is enough to pay that, go out to eat here and there, get some clothes, and a PS3 game every few weeks. But for everyone else, I agree.

[harmonicon]

58. not really.

It's those jobs that are keeping those teenagers from living in a prosperous country as adults. When I had my minimum wage job, I'd have guys a lot older than me come in asking for applications. When I told them what it paid, they'd usually just walk out - it wasn't even worth it. Those 16 year olds working for that money - when they already have food and shelter - are keeping others from having those very simple dignities.

[On the Road]

96. That is a Very Good Point

There's nothing inherently wrong with having lower paid part-time jobs so teenagers can have spending money. I did it and it's good experience. But it shouldn't come at the expense of people who need to support themselves.

[Ter]

115. When I got my first job in 1993, I got whatever the NJ minimum wage was

I worked three days a week, and thought I was rich. Never seen so much money in my life, and didn't have a single bill.

[Ter]

114. So what are you saying, those 16 year olds shouldn't work at all?

I hope that's not what you mean. If you are 16, 18, or even 24 and still live at home and pay only one or two small bills, that job is far better than no job.

[harmonicon]

204. I'm not saying that at all.

What I am saying is that arguing that it's ok for teenagers to make less money because they don't really need it only serves to drive down wages for all of us. I was making more money out of high school in the 90's than I was in 2006 with a master's degree.

[stevenleser]

101. No as in ZERO DUers think that. But plenty of folks seem to project that on other DUers. n/t

[HughBeaumont]

7. REAGAN BEATS MONDALE IN A LANDSLIDE!

Geez, MLHS . . . 30 years ago called, they want their obvious back . . .

[femrap]

66. Too bad Rayguneconomics

didn't die with the man....

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rip-reaganomics-revolu...

From his lips to God/Goddess' ears.

[HughBeaumont]

93. It's funny how that whole mess of a system has his namesake . . .

. . . when it was likely he didn't understand any of it.

And yes, Dumberica is going to pay a grave price for never having rid themselves of Freidman-on-steroids capitalism for thirty one years straight.

[joanbarnes]

8. Duh! How much did this "study" cost?

[AnnetteJacobs]

147. See post #38.

nt

[canuckledragger]

165. post 38 isn't the best example

It's only recently that minimum wage in my province of Ontario was raised to $10.25/hr...for quite awhile it around $8 & change. $12.24/hr is a dream in most areas here.

..Remember that our provinces are HUGE, that minimum wage applies to ALL cities within the province, with no adjustments made for living expenses in those cities

A 1-2 bedroom apt in my home city runs around &700-800 regardless of location, often you have to pay for utilities too. Monthly bus passes are around $60, 2.25 per ride without. (buses start around 7AM, stop at 11PM..tough luck for anyone working schedules outside of that, cabs are a killer if you need to use them)

Most of the jobs advertised here are service based (cleaners, cashiers, restaurant, etc.) & most are part time (but seems to work out to just under full time hours) with no benefits.

Yes we have excellent UNIVERSAL health care but most can't afford to take time off & miss that pay..you'll feel the hurt somewhere, usually with groceries. Said healthcare has been chipped away at by conservatives here there, it no longer covers eye exams (starts somewhere around $80..glasses themselves can start around the $200 range) not sure if it ever covered dental (but hey..you can live without teeth, right? YAY Ensure.../sarcasm)

That all said..that's some of the challenges faced here..in a relatively small city. God help if you live in a big one like Toronto..one of the biggest, wealthiest cities in Canada..& a huge homeless population. No real excuse for that.

Got anything else to say? Try raising a family on minimum wage.

[livingonearth]

9. That doesn't mean the repubs won't still want to abolish it so they can pay less.

[OhioChick]

10. No shit headline n/t

[ck4829]

11. You can't? But the Tea Party says you can live for less than minimum wage!

Then again, the Tea Party also does say that God created the Earth 6000 years ago and that Obama is simultaneously a fascist, a Marxist, a Muslim, an extremist Christian, and more.

K&R.

[russspeakeasy]

27. You can live on minimum wage, but not for long.

[Enthusiast]

39. That would be Muslin.

[booley]

52. I've noticed something

The vast majority of those who say one can live on minimum wage aren't' themselves trying to live on minimum wage.

[elocs]

56. I can live on minimum wage, but that's just me.

My living expenses are very low and a minimum wage job would pay my bills. Not much more, but it would do that and I realize I am an exception to the general rule and I am doing it right now.

[femrap]

69. What gets me is that this women of twins

is providing the MOST IMPORTANT HEALTH CARE TO INDIVIDUALS, yet she is being paid SHIT! That is hard work...and caring for the sick and elderly gets you nothing in this country. Yet our Health Costs are higher than any other country.

It's a Women's Job to take care of the sick and elderly....and our sick culture won't pay her a fair wage for it. Hell, Hospice work is VOLUNTEERS.

Our priorities are so f*cked up.

[Vanje]

84. You can live for less than Min wage in yo mamma's basement

I think thats how the Tea-partiers have it figured.

[zalinda]

12. And those on SSI, have to live on less than minimum wage n/t

[RebelOne]

22. Yep, I living on it. $1,400 a month doesn't go far.

And deducted out of that is $110 for Medicare.

[happyslug]

36. Nationally SSI is only $674, SS Disability can pay better, but is a different program

Now, Social Security, Social Security Disability AND Supplemental Security Income (SSI) are all run by the Social Security Administration (SSA), Social Security taxes only pay for the first two, SSI is paid via general funds (i.e. Income Taxes). The test for disability for Social Security Disability and SSI are the same, the difference is your work record. SSI was set in the 1960s as the minimal amount you needed to survive. SSI goes to those people who are NOT eligible for Social Security Disability OR if eligible for Social Security Disability, the amount they are entitled to is less below the "Standard of Need". The "Standard of Need" was set in the 1960s and income indexed so it goes up each year (Except the last two, where we have had officially no inflation).

Just pointing out $1400 a month is NOT SSI, SSI recipients get only $671 per month.

[RebelOne]

63. Sorry, I did not specify that I am receiving Social Security

and not Social Security Disability.

[Safetykitten]

14. I want the final results from a 20 year/300 million study from the Feds by 2050. That will settle it

[Courtesy Flush]

15. I assume they mean without government programs.

In my job, I see people get by on much less than $24.49 per hour (most of my co-workers make much less), but government programs fill the gaps. I interviewed a woman this morning who gets by on 7.25 per hour, but she has HUD, Medicaid, WIC, and food stamps. Still, she doesn't make ends meet.

The lesson here is that if you're going to allow businesses to pay less than a living wage, then the government has to provide what the employers do not. You can't demand low pay AND eliminate programs. It's another form of government subsidy to businesses. We provide benefits to their employees, to prop up their bottom line.

[semillama]

31. You nailed it right on the head

Lower wages = more reliance on government programs. But somehow I doubt you'll see any republicans making that argument as a way to reduce government spending.

[tblue37]

35. I think the way Wal-mart employees depend on things

like food stamps and other such safety net programs is just an example of the way that so many major employers force the government (taxpayers) to fill in the financial gaps rather than paying their workers a livign wage--and then they refuse to pay their fair share of taxes to support those programs, so more and more of the burden gets shifted onto the middle class and working class taxpayers.

[femrap]

70. In states with newly elected

Repugnant Govs (MI,OH,TN and others), the money that helps fill those gaps is going to be REDUCED DRAMATICALLY. These Govs are sadists and want to see people really hurting.

Of course Wal-Mart makes their employees go the gov't to make up for they SHOULD pay in benefits. Wal-mart is the largest employer in the US now. I refuse to shop their.

We're a cruel nation.

And while I'm ranting....if a poor woman wants a damn abortion, it should be legal, safe, and federally funded. If any woman wants an abortion, she should have that right.

I'm sick of tax money going to kill people in the Middle East....let us provide abortions instead. (Of do TPTB want future cannon fodder?)

[pitohui]

16. file this under the "no shit sherlock" category

at $24 an hour you can have a child or you can have a retirement, not both

at $6 an hour everything you make goes in getting to/from work

[SoapBox]

17. Well DUH!

...what kind of a moron can't figure this out...Oh ya, the GOBPers, RushThugs and T.HATERbagger million/billionaires.

[KamaAina]

18. Much, much more in this month's issue of DUH! magazine

on newsstands now.

[Lugnut]

19. Another gem from the no-shit-Sherlock file.

They had to do a formal study to figure this out? Oy.

[Odin2005]

20. No shit, why do they think I'm on SSI?

[IScreamSundays]

23. We needed a study for this??

I added it up in my head, didn't even use a calculator.

[femrap]

71. Lots of teabaggers and selfish

greedy people will deny this....please allow the Researchers to provide information to the mis-informed as well as allowing them a F*CKIING JOB.

[Taverner]

25. In other news, water is wet

[bluerum]

26. Shaking my head in disbelief. Someone actually commissioned this study?

[femrap]

72. You sound like

a freeper.....wasteful gov't spending. Why would you deny a Researcher a job?

[bluerum]

98. No. Just wondering why it takes research to learn something so damn obvious.

[femrap]

107. You must live

in a lovely progressive area....around here in the fly over states, the single mother is looked down upon. They feel she is taking from them via gov't handouts. And she doesn't know how to budget.

Where so you people live? I want to live around enlightened and intelligent people.

This study provides ammunition for me....I can show to my neighbor and maybe enlighten someone.

[bluerum]

139. I live in MA. You would starve and or freeze and or die of disease on minimum wage here.

Maybe, just maybe, in the rural most areas in the western part of the state you could live by gardening, raising livestock and heating with wood.

Or you could work three full time minimum wage jobs and pull down $1000 a week until you die of exhaustion after two weeks.

[femrap]

163. then why are we disagreeing w/

each other?

Sorry to bother you....but why are fighting amongst ourselves?

But I see that you haven't died of disease of minimum wage there yet....now have you?

As the saying goes: The economy has created 1,000 jobs and I have 4 of them.

[bluerum]

202. Not disagreeing. My position is that the conclusion of the study should be obvious to a one eyed

monkey. The fact this is recycled every few years simply indicates the level of neglect. It is painfully obvious to anyone trying to make a living that minimum wage is a cruel joke.

[femrap]

206. Look what the Repugnants

in Ohio are trying to do: Eliminate the Minimum Wage for many...everyone will become an 'independent contractor' and not allowed a Minimum Wage.

http://www.plunderbund.com/2011/05/31/senate-republican... /

Hell, I've read that many people are becoming INTERNS for months and months....thinking that they will be hired someday.

It's Slavery, Stupid!

I gotta say that I appreciate the studies...gives me updated ammunition to fight the shit that Ohio greedy people believe. The hatred and greed that some people have against the Working Poor is simply jaw-dropping.

Teddy Kennedy gave a great rant on the Senate floor a few years ago...yelling: 'Why do you Republicans hate working people so much? What is it about them that makes you so hateful?' I'm bet it's on YouTube. It was a righteous rant!

[stevenleser]

136. Just because "everybody knows that" doesnt mean an empirical study is worthless. n/t

[Luciferous]

30. Anyone with basic math skills could tell you that. They really needed to do a study?

[cliffordu]

32. We should have a "GD:No Shit Sherlock" board.

I cannot believe these people are that far from the reality here on the ground.....

[canuckledragger]

33. as a person well used to minimum wage work let me say..

[AnnetteJacobs]

152. See post #38.

nt

[canuckledragger]

171. How about a constructive argument from yourself

instead of spamming about one of the few posts claiming to live comfortably on scraps?

[Javaman]

34. Well no shit.

stupid obvious study of the week.

[slay]

37. And yet the billionaires and corporations who have bought our government don't give a shit

something has to change. drastically. even if we have to ditch our current economic system - something must change.

if nothing else we should tax the rich to the point where everyone can have a living wage - even if that means billionaires lose 90% of their money. we have been so screwed for so long by the rich - this can not continue. so sad that sooooo many people don't make enough to live.

[hfojvt]

38. the study looks ridiculous to me - $12.24 an hour?

I have not made that much for most of the last decade, (and heck, probably the 1990s as well) and I have been living just fine - even with two and three dogs. That is, much more than I need. People can and do live on less than $24,000 a year, and families live on less than $40,000 a year. To say that somebody cannot flies in the face of actual experience.

[JDPriestly]

41. Depends on where you live and what support system such as

family, spouse, etc. you have.

It also depends on your health, whether you have access to inexpensive public transportation and a number of other things.

So, you, hfojvt, may be able to live on less than someone with challenges you don't have. This is about averages.

If you aren't working outside your home, you can spend a lot less on things like shoes, clothing, transportation and even meals.

But if you have, for instance, a job in sales, just dressing appropriately can be a pretty big expense.

[radhika]

45. What are your expenses like - if you don't mind my asking...

I know lots of people making less - but:

They usually don't have to pay for healthcare, or simply do without.
They often have preferred housing situations - use of a family home, they live with a wage-earner, room mates.
No education costs...for self or children.
The have assets that come outside of wage earnings - divorce settlements, grey economy, insurance settlements

Here in LA, a single person trying to living alone in a reasonable safe neighborhood, paying their own utilities and expenses and the like won't make it without one of the above. I know, I've been there.

[hfojvt]

68. the study said that a single, childless person needs $12 an hour

for all of Michigan. I did this for two decades in a number of states and living situations. During graduate school in Lincoln, Nebraska. Yes I had a roommate for a year, but I moved in with him to help HIM with expenses. It saved me some too, not that I needed it, but an extra $50 a month does not hurt. Otherwise I have been living on my own. Then I moved to Wisconsin and rented several places and worked several jobs.

No, I never had health insurance either, not until June of 2004. Mostly I had no medical bills, other than dental, which I covered out of pocket.

One of the great things about small towns is that there really are no 'bad' neighborhoods but lots of people also live in those unsafe neighborhoods and are mostly safe there. I don't think Michigan is like California. I understand it IS impossible to live in California on any income.

[The Flaming Red Head]

166. No bad neighborhoods in small towns?

You must not know how meth smells when they're cooking it, cause I guarantee there are plenty of bad neighborhoods in small towns these days and I can't name a town that doesn't have at least two crack houses in it.

[TBF]

46. You can throw up anecdotal evidence to try to dispute anything -

but I'd love to know WHY you're disputing it. Do you really believe it's easy for families making minimum wage to survive (and don't tell me dogs cost as much as kids - I'm raising both and have a very good handle on that), or are you just intent on cutting down the argument because you're into the status quo (of the rich holding all the money and everyone else living as virtual slaves).

[hfojvt]

75. because I think the argument is ridiculous

and my own experience proves it. It can be done.

As for families on minimum wage, that was not the question. This ridiculous study claimed that a family of three could not live on less than $24 an hour - about $48,000 a year.

I don't think you help to change the status quo when you advance ridiculous arguments like "the mininmum wage should be $15 an hour".

And heck, according to the study, even that, a $15 an hour full time job would not be enough for a single mom to live on. Even $20 an hour would not be enough.

[TBF]

80. It's an average - I grew up in what I used to affectionately call "bumblefuck Wisconsin" -

yes in a rural area your mortgage is $500 a month on a huge house, and your big expenses right now will be gas to get to work and any medical misfortunes that occur. This is not the same as living in New York City and trying to support your family (or even yourself) on so little money.

Also I an interested in the fact that you completely ignored my question when I asked you about the status quo. My guess - you're older, quite status quo (even if you voted for Obama), and basically ok with how things are going in this country. You've bought FAUX news hook, line and sinker.

[hfojvt]

118. I would expect the average to include lots of non-urban, cheaper areas

as for "completely ignoring" your question.

I said this about it "I don't think you help to change the status quo when you advance ridiculous arguments like "the mininmum wage should be $15 an hour"."

Just because I call ridiculous arguments ridiculous, does not mean I support the status quo.

BTW, in this urban, or ex-urban area, my mortgage was $215 a month, not including insurance which was a ridiculous $600 a year. $500 a month is kinda pricey.

[TBF]

143. How is $15 an hour a ridiculous argument? In what universe?

That's 30K a year assuming 40 hour work weeks. How is that an outrage?

As far as I'm concerned folks should be guaranteed a home, health care, and job - this business about lowering everyone to poverty while allowing the billionaires to play is the ridiculous argument.

[hfojvt]

183. in this one

where the minimum wage was $5.85 and hour just four years ago, before it was increased by 23%, and you think another 100% increase is reasonable? That would make a 156% increase from 2007. Lots of people would consider a 156% increase in the minimum wage to be just as outrageous as a 156% increase in the price of gasoline.

And you can bet that the people who currently have good jobs paying $16 an hour would not like to suddenly find themselves making almost minimum wage.

[TBF]

190. Reactionary crap.

Well your true colors show. The only people who benefit from your scenario are owners (and I don't mean mom/pop stands that are suffering as much as the rest of us). The very wealthy, who control a good share of the wealth in this country, are the only ones benefiting.

So, that's fine. Hang tight and hope people don't rebel - so far you're winning.

[wickerwoman]

145. You can live on less than $24 an hour,

but you can't retire, own your own home, send your kids to college, save up for emergencies, have the occasional modest vacation, pay your own medical bills, etc. All the things people took for granted in the 50s are being taken away from us.

You can say its "ridiculous" and point out that you can technically subsist on less than $24 an hour with two kids, but what's the point of arguing that when it remains obvious that the working and middle classes in the US have both had their standards of living significantly reduced by Reaganomics.

Whichever way you run the math, fifty years ago a family could have a very decent standard of living on one person with a high school diploma's salary. Now the same family could have both parents working three jobs and still be living pay-check to pay-check.

[hfojvt]

180. well 50 years ago was a long time ago

and they had certain demographic advantages. Back in 1950 with so many more workers than retirees, it was very easy for the workers to support the retirees. The ratio for us is not nearly as favorable. However, if you go back to 1890, the labor force participation rate for men over 65 was 68.3%. By 1990 this had dropped to 17.6% compared to 80.6% for all men in 1970.

As for the good old days. In 1959, the poverty rate was 18.5% and in 1960 in was 18.1% and when I was born it was 17.2%. Then things started to improve (I am thinking there has got to be some causation there). By the next year, it was down to 15.9% and by 1966 it was only 11.8%.

Amazing what a failure that 'war on poverty' was.

Also, in 1970, 60% of American households lived on less than $40,569 in 2001 dollars. That's $51,520 in 2001 dollars according to CPI's inflation calculator. Almost 60% of the population in 1970 living on less than $24 an hour in today's money.

Also, yes, I own my own home, on less than $24,000 a year (okay, I did make $19,704 in 2004 and $24,120 in 2005 and $22,924 in 2006) and then I semi-retired in October 2006 and switched to part time work and made just $11,202 in 2007 the year I turned 45.

Admittedly, I am a freak of nature and most people do not want to live as low to the ground as I do, but they are making choices then and NOT facing some kind of inevitable necessity which cannot be defeated. And it's like I always say "I am America and you can too".

[elocs]

77. As others have said, on average, people cannot live on minimum wage. Individual mileage may differ.

I can live on minimum wage because my living expenses are so ridiculously low. Personally, I would rather work a minimum wage job that I liked rather than a better paying one where I hated the thought of going to work. Fortunately for me, I can indulge myself in that area. Having not worked in nearly 8 months a minimum job would be good for me now.

[hfojvt]

121. the point is that one of their key findings is ridiculous

"Single Michigan residents without children must earn $12.24 an hour to support themselves"

there was no "average" given there. No "$9.50 is enough in Grayling, but you need $11.75 in Lansing and $14.50 in Kankakee"

Okay, it is apparently a pain in the butt to find state level statistics, as I scan through the first four google results and get nothing, but I am fairly sure that many households in Michigan are living on less than $48,000 a year.

It's one thing to say that "people cannot live on minimum wage" and it is another thing entirely to say "the minimum wage should be $15 an hour" which is what they seem to say here.

[bread_and_roses]

189. There is NOTHING ridiculous about $15 hr minimum wage

Where I live, considered one of the more inexpensive areas in the country, the living wage calculator tells me that a single parent with one child needs to make $17.00 per hr to meet expenses. You can look up your own area here: http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/states/36/locations

And what if a minimum wage worker - someone without children - has a few extra $$ at the end of the month? Is that so unthinkable? I assure you, no one with a child to care for is going to driving a luxury car or taking extravagant vacations on $15 per hr., and I doubt that the child-free worker is either.

How anyone can look at the inequality in this country, at the wage stagnation over - what is it? the last thirty years or so? - at the decline in living standards among workers, and not understand that there is something radically wrong with the wage structure in this country is beyond me.

[juajen]

78. Well, dogs don't need clothes, school fees, braces, etc., you name it. NT

[hfojvt]

125. neither do single people

and the study claimed that single people need to make $12 an hour to survive. Which kinda makes me wonder how I survived on $13,000 a year while owning two or three dogs and being a member of Kiwanis and paying for high speed internet and a membership on ancestry and subscribing to The Nation. How the heck did I ever pay for this laptop and two desktops, if I needed $24,000 a year just to provide the bear necessities of life?

[Justitia]

132. Single people don't need clothes? Maybe you can afford it because you live in Nowheresville, KS

and so it is incredibly cheap to live there.

Most people live in cities, the city I live in has more people than your entire state.

My metro area is the size of multiple states. These areas cost more to live in, where the people are.

[hfojvt]

181. they have my sympathy for that

the only reason I would want to live in an abomination like Houston was so I could make enough money to move the hell out.

But I was once an Oilers fan.

Most people live in cities because the place where I live, population 35,000, is classified as a city.

As for most people living in big cities, my own city is probably considered part of the Kansas City metro area. And actually I originally commuted to Kansas City, and paid the earnings tax, until I got fired in March (this after I had closed on a house in October of the previous year and was about to turn 40). And I had to buy a house in Kansas, because they were just too damned expensive on the Missouri side. Well, at least I thought $57,000 was too much when I could get the same thing in Kansas for $35,000. I didn't even look for houses in KCMO, because I did not want to live in the big city.

As for Michigan, looking at this study from Census 2000 (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Hal_lm_census_Metropo... ) (so it's kinda dated, yes, but it's what google gave me, and it is perhaps still too early for 2010 to have been compiled) 44.6% of Michiganers lived in Detroit metro area and 7.5% live in Grand Rapids (about 3/4 of a million people). So 52.1% are in your idea of "somewhere" but the rest, almost 50% are living in small, little "nowhere" places, like Bay City (with the Rollers) and Kamalazoo and Battle Creek and Sturgis. I cannot believe all of those places are as high priced as 90210, although even in this town the rent is too damned high. My neighbor pays $550 a month for that little house and little yard.

[Justitia]

200. LOL - Houston is an "abomination", ha, too funny. What's the matter w/Kansas, indeed.

According to the census, your "city" has a population of 3,000 - soooooo, somebody is off by a factor of ten.

[hfojvt]

208. "I'm not a doctor

but I play one on TV."

Hiawatha is where I currently pretend to live, having deemed it prudent to keep my real residence hidden from those who might intend me harm.

Hiawatha is in my congressional district and it's a nice little town where I was invited to spend the day by a very pretty girl in the chamber of commerce.

Nice of you to bring up Tommy Frank considering that I usually defend Texas from its detractors here. Nothing personal about Houston, just how I define human habitations by size, here

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/64

"Probably this has been done officially, and some dictionary or geographer might correct me, but this is about how I would define them.
<100 Macbeth
<1000 Hamlet
<5000 Othello, I mean village
<15000 small town
<25000 town, small city
<75000 city
<250000 big city
>250000 city city bang bang, I mean metropolis
>1,000,000 clusterfu$%
>5,000,000 abomination"

Places that are too small, lack services and amenities, but at some point, places that are too large become highly dysfunctional. I'd rather live in a place like Hiawatha and drive to St. Joseph, Lincoln or Topeka for missing amenities than have to live in a place like Houston. I bet there are many Houstonians who agree too, but just cannot find a decent job in a place like Hiawatha.

[Justitia]

212. See, I'd rather be eaten by bears....

.....than to live in a rural, unpopulated place.

And hey, you wouldn't have to pretend to live somewhere else to hide out.

I love my big city and Houston is a highly functional, well run, fun & interesting city with lots to offer.

I have lived in other large cities (London, Philadelphia, Dallas, San Antonio) and what I consider a small town (Charlotte, NC).

Big cities, diverse populations, lots going on - love it.

Hubby comes from a "town" of 300 (Nowheresville, Indiana). Love his family, but I would shrivel up & die living in a place like that.

Not to mention, I have actually seen mbrs of his family die from lack of access to nearby, quality medical care.

Houston is home to the largest medical center in the world - 10 mins from my house.

Different strokes for different folks.

[OutNow]

40. Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America

Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America is a book written by Barbara Ehrenreich over 10 years ago. It was also done as a play in 2003. I saw it when the play came to Austin Texas. The book and the play really do a great job showing how minimum wage employees in several job categories try to get by: day by day week by week. It ain't a pretty sight.

[CrispyQ]

67. I almost cried when I read the section of the young Walmart worker

who was holding onto a blouse that met the dress requirements of Walmart, in hopes that it would be reduced in price, so she could afford to purchase it. This is the type of company our local towns are giving incentives to, to build their monster stores in. They promise jobs in return, but what is the value of jobs that leave employees on public assistance & without health insurance?

That was an excellent book.

[wickerwoman]

146. I did cry at the section

with the 19 year old maid (I think she was pregnant too) who ate nothing but Doritos for lunch every day.

Nickle and Dimed should be required reading in high school life skills classes.

[Initech]

43. Was this printed in DUH! Magazine?

[liberal N proud]

44. It took a study to determine this?

You can't make a living on two minimum wages

[sakabatou]

47. No shit, really?

[kestrel91316]

48. Oh, you CAN live on it. You just have to cram in a couple dozen

roommates to help share living expenses. There is plenty of room for them on the floor and sofa, folks.

[pinqy]

53. What the article fails to mention

Is that most minimum wage workers don't try to support themselves on it.

45.4% of people who earn at or below min wage are never married 16-24 year olds (most certainly students working part time and entry level workers).

24.1% are "married, spouse present." In other words, secondary earners.

And that's not even counting multiple job holders so that total earnings would be well above min wage.

Source: Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers 2010

[msider]

54. K&R

[harmonicon]

55. How true.

Before I moved to the new country, I was living in Michigan and working for minimum wage. I (with a master's degree) lived with my parents, and borrowed a car from them to get to work. Basically I only paid for gas and food, but it was still hard to save money. Some weeks I'd work 60 hours, and others I'd work 18. I have no idea how I would have lived on that if I'd also had to pay rent and make a car payment every month.

[femrap]

74. What would have happened to you

if you didn't family to help you?

I am amazed at what I'm reading on this thread...doesn't sound like progressive people at all. Why resent the study? Why resent the people putting together the facts for the mis-informed? Don't they want the Researchers/Writers to have jobs??

This place has really changed. There is a selfish atmosphere of late.

I, too, had the master's degree and had to live with family for a while. I could have been homeless.

[harmonicon]

203. I would still be screwed without my family.

I moved to the UK on a three year contract that ended in September. I lived off of savings for a few months, but I've been living off of charity from my family since then (there are no jobs here either, but I'll run out my visa, because at least I've got great healthcare here).

Regarding the responses in this thread, I really think I've sorted out the difference between Democratic and Republican voters. Democrats vote against their own interests because they think there's a really slim chance that one day they'll be millionaires, so they want to hedge their bets. Republicans are certain in their hearts that they'll one day be millionaires and are just waiting.

[femrap]

205. Michael Moore said something

similar back in the 2004 Election....he came to Cincinnati to get people to vote for the Dems (Alas)...Americans can be so dense. They're not going to get rich.

Did you enjoy the UK? At least you got some good health care and a great experience (I hope).

Here in the US today...the 'markets' were expecting 175,000 new jobs in May....and less than 40,000 happened. And here in Dumfukistan (Ohio), they want to get rid of the Minimum Wage for many.

http://www.plunderbund.com/2011/05/31/senate-republican... /

I'm telling you....it's getting sadistic out there.

[harmonicon]

217. I love living in the UK.

Basically I'd live anywhere that would pay me to do work that I enjoy, but given the choice, I'd stay here over going most places. The biggest quality of life change is not having to drive. I know so many people here who don't drive, and I'm not in a big city. For most of the country, the infrastructure is in place to make public transit cheap and convenient, and towns are laid out in a such a way that you can walk to most anything you'd need.

[femrap]

I'm green

with envy. I visited Europe twice when I was in college...decades ago. I loved it....and the transportation system. But I loved the food the most. And the relaxation/quality of life.

I was born in the wrong country.

[harmonicon]

220. Well, the food here is terrible.

Basically there is English food and Indian/Pakistani food and very little else. When people ask me what I miss about home, apart from my family, the first thing I says is food. Honestly, I would love to have food here that I would have turned my nose up at in the US. I would love to just get ANY Mexican food, for instance. Pizza here is a joke, and as far as American food goes, no one even knows what corn bread is.

[Justitia]

221. I loved being an expat in London (the transportation is fantastic!), but I ate a LOT of spaghetti!

and cereal.

Yeah, the food thing was a challenge. As much as I walked everywhere (and loved it!), you'd think I'd have lost some weight.
Guess it was the spaghetti every night, LOL

Enjoy your time there, I miss the UK like crazy.

[harmonicon]

227. Yeah, I've gained weight here.

It took me ages to figure out how the hell people ate here. Basically it's red meat and starch, and I do eat loads of pasta.

[femrap]

225. I spent a very short time in England....

all I ate was fish and chips. I loved the malt vinegar. It's weird that the British never learned to cook while the rest of Europe has such great food.

I used to live in N. CA where there is such wonderful Mexican and Chinese food....now I'm in a 'fly over' state and what passes for Chinese and Mexican food is just plain sad. To have an El Faro Burrito....yum.

[blackspade]

57. Obvious study is obvious.

[LynneSin]

59. Wow, I could have told them that without all the fancy researcher

Minimum wage is for high school kids looking for extra money not a living salary.

[GeorgeGist]

61. If we lowered the maximum wage for all Americans ...

I think we could pay a livable wage to all Americans. Call me crazy.

[OverDone]

62. Insane what is going on, Just have to look at the numbers

Yeah this article is just one of many that shows you, there is no way to get ahead. We are current replacing good paying Engineers, Teachers, Scientist, Skilled Trades People, whatever, with theses low paying jobs that you don't even have a chance of living off of.
Sad to see what this country has become.

http://www.dailyjobcuts.com

[Iggo]

64. Man, I gotta get me some study money!

I make over twice the minimum wage here in California, and I can't afford to live BY MYSELF!!!

[femrap]

76. Then maybe you better take

a couple of classes in statistics and data management and then you, too, could be a Researcher. Why in the hell do you resent the people who wrote the study? Because it was a WOMEN'S GROUP???

Is that what is behind all of this animosity of the Study?????

I smell something...

[Iggo]

90. I don't care who the fuck put out the study.

"I gotta get me some of that study money" is a very, very common joke about how the money for a given study is obviously wasted because every body and their fucking brother knows that water is wet, the sky is blue, and bacon is delicious.

As to your other question, if you think I hate women...well, I'll be nice...you're wrong.

[jeff47]

94. And everyone and their brother knows the Earth is flat.

All you have to do is look around. It's obviously not round.

Sometimes the obvious that everybody knows to be true is false. And a study such as this one provides the valuable data of how much it does cost to live on, not that minimum wage is too low.

[femrap]

97. Then go get yourself

some of that money.

But if you think everyone would agree w/ this study, you're living in a liberal paradise. Where is that? I'll move there. Cuz out here in 'fly over,' there is much hatred and misinformation about single mothers raising children.

[AllyCat]

65. They needed to do a study to figure that out? Even with science on our side

the cons and corporate whores will NEVER believe it. And the media won't report it.

[Corruption Winz]

73. The way they get away with minimum wage is that you technically....

won't die with minimum wage. You'll live with it. But, that's not the same thing as living comfortably. Obviously, however, this needs to change and soon. More money and most people make better choices with how they spend it, in my opinion. That helps everyone out.

[Withywindle]

223. You very well MIGHT die.

Most minimum-wage jobs don't come with health insurance, you sure as hell can't afford it if that's what you're making, and most people with neither insurance nor money will ignore symptoms and hope they go away rather than go to the ER and potentially rack up a huge bill over something that might well turn out to be nothing.


Lots and lots of people have died, are dying right now, and will die in the future from illnesses that could have been treated if (a) caught early (by expensive tests) and (b) treated early (requiring enough disposable income to pay for non-crisis care).

Also, most working-poor people who worry about medical bills if they're diagnosed with something awful? Aren't worried so much for themselves as for loved ones who might step in, and wind up losing their house over someone else's bills.

[electricD]

79. if the republican business/corporate owners

had their way, we'd all be working for minimum wage. And, the more industry that leaves this country, the lower our wages will become.

[TBF]

81. Why are we always focusing on how to minimize wages for our populace?

Where is the discussion about Bill Gates making more money than 1/2 the country in any given year? Why do we idolize a few billionaires, let them live like kings, while we put up with so little for everyone else?

That is the study I'd like to see funded.

[tclambert]

85. The study also found that Bill Gates COULD live on his income.

They're still working on whether or not water is wet.

[TrollBuster9090]

83. I'll wait until that study on Bears Shitting in The Woods comes out before I get excited. nt

[wowimthere]

86. Duhh

[Ramulux]

88. Is this a joke?

Are there actually people who think you can feed, clothe and shelter yourself off of minimum wage?

[BlueJac]

89. NO SHIT!!!!

[Vinca]

91. Wow - real shocker there.

[WatsonT]

92. I find this unlikely

People can work here illegally for less than minimum wage and survive.

[stevenleser]

102. Apples and oranges. Illegal aliens have a number of things going on that make this possible. Such as

1. Willingness to accept extremely substandard housing or arrangements where several times the recommended (and legal) number of people live in an apartment or house.

2. In the case of restaurant workers, they get free meals with their employment

3. In the case of farm workers, they get free produce and (crappy) housing with their employment in many circumstances.

4. No medical care. Their medical plan basically is, high tail it back to Mexico to get care or willingly get caught by immigration.

Now, if you think that is OK for your fellow Americans, you really dont belong on this website.

[truedelphi]

105. In California, the clinics and hospitals

Cannot ask for proof of legal status for care, nor can County workers ask for proof of legal status for their care. Food stamps, government-paid insurance and often housing vouchers are available.

So although the bill for the average person buying food at the grocery is less because of how badly people are paid, the tax payers are footing the bill for this.

[WatsonT]

197. Yes yes, illegals get so many handouts

They live a life of splendor.

And the article said it was impossible to live at a certain wage, not that it was impossible to maintain a certain standard of living at a certain wage.

[Arrowhead2k1]

99. Should have voted for The Rent is Too Damn High Party. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

100. So, what's your point?

People working minimum wage jobs don't contribute to political campaigns, and they certainly can't give multi-million-dollar-a-year jobs to friends and relatives, and to retired politicians.

Therefore minimum wage workers are of no importance, other than to use as cheap labor or to fleece.

[pettypace]

104. A person can live on minimum wage.

iff you are a single individual.

Let's do the math.

7.25 x 2080 hours a year = $15,080.
(Taking state of NC for example.)

Standard taxes:

FICA (4.2%) = $633
Medicare (1.45% = $219
State (6%) minus $3k standard deduction = $724
Fed (10%) minus $9.35k deduction = $573

Total net earnings equal $12,931.

That comes to $1,077 per month.

Typical monthly expenses for a min wager:

Rent and bills $550 (somewhat cheap apartment, no cable or home phone)
Food $250 (eat out more than cook at home)
Transportation $50 (bus pass)
Cell phone $27

Leaves $200 per month for entertainment, clothes.
---------------------------------

You can certainly get by on any given year on this salary. If you're unlucky to have to remain at this position, you'll probably get raises biannually or annually.

You can live on minimum wage. It just wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.

I'm 32 years old and I've made roughly 15K in a year four times. It's doable. Not pleasant but doable.

[JAnthony]

112. IF, IF, IF IF.....

..............You live within walking distance of your work, or have a bicycle, and don't mind riding the bike to work on a snowy day.

....You don't have to pay for electricity in your apartment, and don't store milk, juice or any foods in refrigeration.

.....You don't have health insurance costs of $4000 to $8000 a year, depending upon your previous health conditions,


.... You don't have a cavity in your tooth, need $200-$500 to get the tooth fixed, teeth cleaned, or other dental care in that year

.....You don't want to travel on a bus, train, plane, or share costs of going 100 miles away to visit relatives, have Thanksgiving or another holiday with other family more than a few dozen blocks away.


NO, you CANNOT "live" a sensible life on that income, anyone who tries it is doomed to a horrible life!

DUH~!

[pettypace]

123. You won't be earning mim wage for ever.

I don't believe anyone is incapable of not finding a higher-wage gig within a few years.

Mim wage is extreme.

Again the argument is not that EVERY person out there is capable of living a year or so on mim wage. Just that it is doable. I've proven it.

f you have extenuating circumstances yeah you're going to struggle.

[theHandpuppet]

188. Exactly.That "budget" presumes a lot

Like everyone even has access to public transportation. Certainly don't have it where I live, much less places where 550 bucks would cover housing AND bills, because the vast majority of rentals do not include utilities. And yes, I live in a working class neighborhood where many of my neighbors hold minimum wage jobs. They've resorted to cramming extended family and friends into too-small dwellings to get by and sharing one car. All it takes is for one person to get sick and you're so far in the hole you'll never be able to crawl out. And when there's no public transportation you have to use a car and pay over 4.00 a gallon for gas, not to mention insurance, etc.

[plumbob]

113. Good gosh, things are cheap in your part of the country. Here in west Texas,

rent on a 454 sq ft apartment is $550 a month, plus about $140 for electric and $50 for water. A combo meal at Jack in the Box is $7 and change, so 14 times a week for lunch and dinner with similar is $100 per week, or $400 per month. No breakfast. AT&T basic cell service $56 per month, cable with internet service $110 per month (no premium channels) or just internet service $75 per month. I'm up to $1271 per month, and I have no money for transportation, clothing, medical (even first aid), entertainment of any sort, not so much as a soft drink from a vending machine, and I'm $2400 a year over your budget.

Sweet deal where you're at.

[pettypace]

122. I lived in Austin

I'd say it's considerably more expensive than Amarillo or Odessa.

The best you can do is $550 for a 454 sq ft in Lubbock? I don't believe it.

Why would you be eating out every single day? $400 a month on food? That's obscene. Can you cook?

If you are a mim wager, you don't need cable and internet.

[plumbob]

142. I'm in Odessa. Here's some other info for you on apartments:

http://www.apartmentratings.com/rate?a=MSAAvgRentalPric...

The apartments here are $790 on average for a 1 bedroom. The $550 a month units are the ones we own and restrict to senior singles or couples.

Jack in the Box is one of the cheaper places to eat, wouldn't you agree? I just multiplied out the cost to 2 meals a day there or equivalent. Of course, if you're going to cook, you'll need to shop at the grocery store, either involving many small trips, since there is no transportation, or bumming rides from someone with a vehicle to stock up.

Local prices at Albertson's: milk, $5.60 per gallon; bread $3.40 per loaf; cheapest hamburger meat: $3.88 per pound, generic soft drink: $3.80 per 12 pack and so on. 56 meals a month if you never have breakfast and no snacks @ $4 per meal even, is $224 per month, and that still only saves $176 per month. Cable and internet are the cheapest entertainment around - or are you suggesting minimum wagers don't deserve any kind of entertainment at all?

We're talking sustainable living here. No snacks, no entertainment, no clothes, no transportation, no medical expense, not even Pepto Bismol.

Austin real estate has gone up since you were there, apparently:

http://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-austin-rent-t... /

"As of May, 2011, average apartment rent within 10 miles of Austin, TX is $991.

One bedroom apartments in Austin rent for $836 a month on average and two bedroom apartment rents average $1068."

That means an $836 per month one bedroom apartment is a little over $10,000 per year without eating a single bite or having the electricity connected.

[pettypace]

173. Again my scenario is for a single individual

In that instance, a mim wager is not bounded to any locale. Certainly he/she would not need to live in Odessa/Midland if they have nothing keeping them there. Obviously from your data they would not fare well at all. So then you move to where the cost of living is commensurate to a mim wager. You move to El Paso, or San Antonio, or Austin.

Here's what I paid when I resided in Austin from 2000-2006:

2000-2001 --> $550 for a studio. I paid through the nose due to the booming economy back then. (Please come back Bill Clinton!)
2002-2004 --> $400 for a studio in West Campus. The price was as such due to proximity to UT.
2004-2005 --> $325 for a large studio by 183/I35 area.
2005-2006 --> $481 for one bedroom in N. Austin by IBM. I got a one month free deal.

Subsequently, I've never paid more than that first $550 per month for any place, including Houston, Charlotte, and NC Triangle. These big cities have tons of cheap outlets via online sites (craigslist for example). You'll most likely be living with roommates but it is what it is.

Matter of fact I've probably averaged less than $450 in the last 5 years. I'm not speculating on whether mim wagers can get by. This is concrete data from my personal life.

Also plumbob, with all due respect your post stated what the average cost of an apt is in Austin. Mim wagers ain't gonna be looking at those spots. They will be placed in the low-rent spectrum, typically in not-the-nicest areas of the city. Austin has a ton of those. Haven't been there in 5 years but I'm sure they've not gone away.

***by the way, those grocery prices in Odessa are highway robbery. What the hell is going on there? Geez.

[plumbob]

179. Cost of living in the oilpatch is always higher than most anywhere else.

I actually saved money when I moved to College Station to attend A&M in the early 70s. I was away for 20 years, but inexplicably, like all natives, I someone ended back up here.


Well, you've got to die someplace, right?

[harmonicon]

210. HAHAHA! Don't need internet! You're funny. nt.

[WatsonT]

218. It is unfortunate that cooking at home is impossible

forcing us to eat fast food for every meal.

[fascisthunter]

116. not sure where you live but it is impossible where I am from

you need multiple jobs to get by here. Oh, it's not unpleasant, it's below the poverty line. Unpleasant was way too kind of a word to use. If the wealthy had their way, they'd make us live off of less than minimum wage. See how long most people live.

[pettypace]

124. Boston is pricey

But it looks like you guys have slightly higher mim wage at 8/hr.

I'm sure you probably would have to be more expedient.

Just curious, how much do you need to get by per month roughly?

[fascisthunter]

149. it depends on the area of Boston

and size of apartment or studio. It also depends on how many people you are willing to live with or should I say, can live with.

There are averages you can look up online... for a studio, single person, average $1200 in Dorchester. A bedroom could run you about $500-$600... it all depends on location and how many room mates you can have in one apartment. And that person probably has to live pay check to pay check... barely any savings at all. Without SS many people will be screwed and have nothing to ever retire on. I hope Americans remember how and who put us into this mess, as we contemplate on how little it costs to survive. I'm sure we could all live in boxes, fed scraps once a day.

[ProSense]

126. Math is off

by about $2,000 per year.

"7.25 x 2080 hours a year = $15,080."

$7.25 x 1820 (35-hour work week) = $13,195

Take home would be about $200 less per month.

This is bare-bones living:

Rent and bills $550 (somewhat cheap apartment, no cable or home phone)
Food $250 (eat out more than cook at home)
Transportation $50 (bus pass)
Cell phone $27

Leaves $200 per month for entertainment, clothes.

Still, $900 per month would be tough for a single person.

[Cleita]

161. The most basic rentals in my area average at the

lowest at $800 a month and up. Insurance of various types that are mandatory eat up more than what's left, let alone paying for utilities, transportation and food. Sorry, I could not live on that.

[ProSense]

117. Wait

aren't Republicans and the media trying to convince people that it's hard to live on nearly 19 times ($250,000) minimum wage?

[FirstLight]

128. We have a WINNER!

This is what needs to be hammered home...! "oh poor us, we can't SURVIVE on $250K a year!" .....Bastards....

[kelly1mm]

134. Actually, isn't it the President that said no tax increases for those making 250K

or less? Wasn't the rational for that that they were having a hard enough time making ends meet without an additional federal tax obligation?

[ProSense]

138. Actually,

"Actually, isn't it the President that said no tax increases for those making 250K or less?"

...no. It was less than $200K for an individual.

Still, what exactly does not raising taxes on individuals making less than $200K, which includes minimum wage earners, have to do with arguing that people who make $250K are having a hard time making ends meet?

[kelly1mm]

141. I may be wrong (certainly NOT the 1st time) but I thought that the

reasoning behind not raising taxes on a certain category of income earners (200k individual/250k married filing joint) was that they could not afford the tax increase in these times of 'shared sacrifice'. If there is another reason I would be happy to hear it.

[RT_Fanatic]

120. Mind boggling.

Anyone surprised?

[RoccoR5955]

127. Who the hell needs to spend money on a study to find this out?!?!?!

Talk about crazy.
Well, it may convince some rethugs that the minimum wage needs to be drastically raised.

[guitar man]

129. No shit?

Seriously? Some genius finally figured this out?

Shit, I could have told them that years ago

[AnnetteJacobs]

151. See post #38.

nt

[guitar man]

201. yeah, so

an anecdote from a person I don't know. Big deal

[DesertDiamond]

130. WOW!!!! THIS IS NEWS!!!!

[DesertDiamond]

131. And now that I'm done with my sarcasm attack, this is awesome, awesome that a study has actually

been done. It may not be heeded immediately, but it's a step in the right direction.

[mdmc]

133. Take THAT DLC!

[valerief]

135. DUH! And you can't survive on eating only rocks. nt

[AnnetteJacobs]

148. See post #38.

nt

[valerief]

150. #38 must not live in the Northeast and must depend on others to share

expenses. Or was willed property. No one can get shelter, heat, food, taxes, and other necessities on miniwage without being dependent on other people. And those people can always abandon you at will. Like our Congress and many state governors.

[canuckledragger]

176. Methinks we have a sock puppet here or something

3 exact same posts from AnnetteJacobs propping up "I can do it, why can't you" kind of post..account open since Jun 05th 2010 & only 39 posts?

[stevenleser]

137. Some of the responses to this OP are pathetic. "Everybody knows that" is not evidence. THIS STUDY IS

and that is the difference.

[valerief]

153. So this will convince people who have no clue what it is to survive in this economy.

The people who already know the price of survival already know you can't survive on miniwage.

And the people who have no clue won't care a whit that you can't survive on miniwage. Cuz they've got theirs and that's all that matters to them.

[stevenleser]

154. What is difficult to get about this? It's Hard evidence vs. Supposition.

Perhaps you like to argue using only supposition. I like empirical research and data behind me when I am making a point. Particularly when arguing on the internet.

[valerief]

155. Most people LIVE the hard evidence. Duh. nt

[stevenleser]

164. Duh - that doesnt do you any good on an internet discussion - duh

As far as anyone knows, you live in a mansion on your own island in the pacific. You can say whatever you want about your own circumstances, its unproveable.

Here we have an empirical study that is real evidence. Duh

[valerief]

207. As I said, it's to convince people who have no clue that people can't

survive on miniwage, because most people already know the price of beans anyway. Duh. Unfortunately, the people who need to be convinced won't give a rat's ass.

[WatsonT]

219. One study, on a subjective subject, from a likely biased group is conclusive?

Sure it is, as long as they give the answer you want.

Had they said the opposite people would be calling the study worthless.

Besides which it is objectively false. People can survive on *less* than minimum wage in this country. They do it all the time, they're called illegal immigrants and they make the news all the time for working here for *less* than minimum wage.

Clearly not all 10-20 million of them have died off. So this study is on its very face incorrect.

Now if they'd specified some standard of living below which they don't consider it acceptable to live that would be different . . .

[AsahinaKimi]

157. Well, not if you live in California....

San Francisco rents, start at 1000 a month and go up.. try fitting that into your budget!

[awoke_in_2003]

158. New study (just a few minutes old)...

no shit, Sherlock. (not aimed at the OP but at the headline)

[TalkingDog]

170. A Modest Proposal from Adopt-A-Billionaire Charity Drive

Adopt-A-Billionaire Charity Drive

Like us on FaceBook!

[burrowowl]

174. Noooo! Really!

Something everyone except Repukes have known for years, if not decades.

[gtar100]

175. Remember - If somone is willing to pay you minimum wage

they're willing to pay you less!

[steelmania75]

177. Minimum Wage should be at least 20 bucks. There's no way anyone can live on 7 bucks an hour 40 hour

s a week. At least with 20 you make $160 on a 8 hour work day, and $800 over a 40 hour work week. Critics will say this would hurt businesses, but by putting more money into the pockets of employees to spend. We need a recovery plan for the people in this country, and that starts with a base of a wage people can live on, at least 30 days of vacation so workers can be rested and ready to work, health insurance for every American, and pension plan for when you retire. And here we are worrying about the debt. The debt would be fine if it wasn't for wars, a Medicare plan that wasn't paid for, and Bush tax cuts.

[LibertyFox]

214. And say goodbye to the economy

$160 a 8 hour day x however many employees you have.

That proposal would crush small to medium sized businesses. You would see the death knell of youth unemployment and a permanent unemployed/underemployed class of people.

[SammyWinstonJack]

178. minimum wage is an insult... Americans have been conditioned to accept as the norm.

[LibertyFox]

213. They're being taught that you should make a career on minimum wage jobs

then demand a living wage instead of improving skills and moving out of those positions.

[Tripod]

184. Oh Shit, I'm screwed!

[Capitalocracy]

185. Why is nobody talking about a living wage?

I feel like I'm eating crazy pills. A living wage would be a huge step toward solving our economic problems.

[TBF]

191. They are not talking about it because that is also reactionary -

why not talk about getting rid of capitalism for an economic system that would actually look out for people rather than profits?

[Yon_Yonson]

192. No .... No .... No .... Tell me it ain’t so!

I have always believed that if we have to get a minimum wage then you also need to be talking about maximum income! Needless to say but the more you make, the more of a percentile you pay in the form of taxation!

[dotymed]

194. Those wages, I assume, do not include

health care.

Lets keep those tax-breaks for the wealthy in place. They need it and we all know it creates jobs.....

[redwitch]

195. My assemblyman thinks the minimum wage is too high.

He told me so.

[blindpig]

196. k&r

[Manifestor_of_Light]

215. From the N.S. Sherlock Research institute

As they say on FARK.

[sarcasmo]

216. The no shitter award.

[rocktivity]

222. Candidate for this year's "You Call This NEWS?" Award

the "To Figure This Out, You Had To Do A Freaking STUDY?" category.


rocktivity

[Roland99]

224. Drive-By Truckers - "Working This Job"

http://www.onlylyrics.com/hits.php?grid=5&id=1041850

Workin' this job is a kick in the pants
Workin' this job is like a knife in the back
It ain't gettin' me further than the dump I live in
It ain't gettin' me further than the next paycheck
Workin' this job is like lightin' two fuses
Workin' this job is runnin' out of excuses
It's like a dead-end when a road map is useless
Until I'm dead and there's nothin' to show for my uses

Nobody told me it'd be easy
Or for that matter, it'd be so hard
But it's the livin' and learnin'
It makes the difference
It makes it all worthwhile
It makes it all worthwhile

Workin' this job, there's nothin' left but to hate it
I won't get as far as my daddy made it
It aint gettin' me farther for all my strivin'
In the dead-end I live or the piece of shit I'm drivin'

Nobody told me it'd be easy
Or for that matter, it'd be so hard
But it's the livin' and learnin'
It makes the difference
It makes it all worthwhile
It makes it all worthwhile

Sometimes I dream that I had aimed my life in different ways
But there was nothin' to show me a way to get me outta this place
So I just did what my daddy did before me
Only to find the only door I found was closed to me

Workin' this job, I thought it sucked when I had it
Now it is gone and I'm learnin' what that is
I'm tryin' to hang in to the worst of places
But a family can't live on these fast food wages

Nobody told me it'd be easy
Or for that matter, it'd be so hard
But it's the livin' and learnin'
It makes the difference
It makes it all worthwhile
It makes it all worthwhile

Workin' this job
Workin' this job
Workin' this job