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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:23 AM
Original message
Germany's Schroeder says Georgia sparked fighting
Source: Reuters

Former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder blamed Tbilisi on Saturday for sparking hostilities with Moscow and suggested its breakaway regions could not remain part of Georgia following the violent clashes of the past week.

In an interview with German weekly Der Spiegel, Schroeder also criticised the West for failures in its dealings with Russia and urged Europe to strengthen its ties with Moscow.

(snip)
"The starting point of the military confrontation was Georgia's march into South Ossetia. We shouldn't confuse things," Schroeder said, when asked who was responsible for the outbreak of violence between Russian and Georgian troops.

He doubted the United States, a strong ally of Georgia, was not informed about the initial Georgian offensive given that it has military advisers stationed in Tbilisi.

Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LG340681.htm
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. But...but...what does McCain's neocon lobbyist / advisor say?
That's who really matters.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. Shunerman was the director of PNAC group and helped plan Iraq invasion
Do we not realize what he is trying to do in Georgia. Plus Rove was in the area at a conference along with Georgian president. They are promoting a war for political gain.
McCAIN WOULD RATHER START A WAR THAN LOSE AN ELECTION.
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bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. "McCAIN WOULD RATHER START A WAR THAN LOSE AN ELECTION"
Ding! Ding! Ding!

We HAVE a winner, folks!
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chatnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. "Political Prostitute" Gerhard Shroeder?
The same who was rewarded with a Gazprom post when he left office?

How surprising.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4515914.stm


"I referred to him as a political prostitute, now that he's taking big checks from (Russian President Vladimir) Putin. But the sex workers in my district objected, so I will no longer use that phrase," Lantos said.

After leaving office in 2005 Schroeder became chairman of the North Europe Gas Pipeline, which is 51 percent owned by the Russian state natural gas company Gazprom.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8PO1SVG1&show_...

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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Winter is coming and the Germans can't afford the unrest
that a cut-off of natural gas from Russia would cause.

The Russians hold all of the aces in this game.

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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. All of the aces except one - the ace of loonies (w).
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. No, Schroeder who saved "old" Europe from involvement in the genocidal destruction of Iraq.
It's easy to spin any politician into a prostitute. I don't support the revolving door and lobbyist system, but if you know one in recent decades who didn't participate -- Lantos presumably raised his campaign funds by being a saint? -- let us know.

If not for Schroeder, Germany and possibly France would have gone along with the worst, most murderous crime of the last decade, the invasion of a sovereign, non-threatening country on the basis of "preventive war," with millions dying as a consequence. He kept his country out of the US attack on Iraq. This was key in creating the international coalition that formed against the invasion. As an American, I am grateful that this limit to the Bush regime's power was set, it has had reverberations. This is what Schroeder will be remembered for in history, despite the deficiencies in his works and careers otherwise.

So maybe, when he makes a statement about Georgia, this is another case where he knows what the fuck he's talking about, unlike the reflexive anti-Russian posters here. (God help us from supporters of consensus US foreign policy, Republican and Democrat alike.)
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Can't trust him on this issue
Schroeder's personal interests are too closely aligned with Russian interests especially in the area of gas pipelines, which BTW run through Georgia. He knows what he's talking about. He knows what will make him and his buddy Putin a lot of money and get them more power.

Georgia has been aligning itself with the West more recently, working with the US on a pipeline and working to join NATO. Putin doesn't like this. This old KGB/FSB guy wants the old profitable Soviet satellite states back. Georgia's initial attack was only an excuse to invade, using troops who just happened to be pre-positioned for it. I wouldn't be surprised if the FSB had a hand in provoking Georgia. The FSB has been caught inciting war before, in incidents that brought Putin to power.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
62. Schroeder is no less on the take than McCain's adviser (Schleunnemann, I think).
Schroeder is in the pay of Russia and McCain's adviser is in the pay of Georgia. Hard to trust either of them, yet our news seems to be filtered through the McCain campaign on this.

Of course, Russia should stay away. It will inevitably be the bully in this situation. A real, neutral or at least more neutral peace-keeping force needs to go into the area.
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Sezu Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. So is this the kind of occupation you can get behind Jack? n/t
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Not at all - not accepting anyone's propaganda about it.
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offog Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
58. Good for Schroeder
for keeping his country out of the Iraq war. I also agree with JackRiddler's concern over "reflexive anti-Russian" attitudes.
I blame both sides. I blame the Georgian president for starting the conflict out of macho pride or something, and the Russians for using it as an excuse to invade Georgia. Note that I blame the Georgian president, not the Georgian people. I feel horrible for the way the ordinary citizens are paying for their president being a dick.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. NATO's action in Kosovo was wrong and so is this...
In the matter of South Ossetia Russia is proceeding as NATO did to "save" the Kosovars - by bombing the offending nation's homeland. You may remember Schroeder was a principle player in the NATO action then, so he's being consistent (out of whorish principles, to be sure) by being for the Russian action now. It's fucked up all around, and there is no side to support here. It's about power all around, and it's those on the ground (the ones for whom it's not about power but survival) who pay with their lives for the stupidity and ruthlessness of the Georgian government and its US sponsor, and the ruthlessness of the Russian government.
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sourmilk Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. His hands drip with Russian Oil.
Still, even whores can tell the truth.

I hope I can understand what has gone on in the Caucasus someday, after all this shakes out. Still, it's been eight years so far and I still cannot figure out what's really going on in Afghanistan...
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. Don't even go there. Bush's hands drips with blood for the oil!!!!
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Something Junior conveniently forgot while chastising Russia.
He did it with a straight face, like it never even happened. The true sign of a pathological liar.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:54 PM
Original message
And now Schroeder's hands do too
So much for the whole "I'm for peace" thing while he was in office. Of course he was, he barely got re-elected on a wave of anti-Bush sentiment. He would have lost that election if not for the Iraq war issue.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
53. when anyone starts referring to "Zionist thugs"
they lose any credibility they may have had


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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
56. "Georgia, the US-Zionist Israel puppet regime..."!!!
What kind of crap is that???

Seeing JOOZ behind every rock, eh?
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #56
68. the post is gone
thank goodness!
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hankthecrank Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. Germany says once you get past the smell kissing pootie ass is not bad
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 08:06 AM by hankthecrank
How's that Jim clear enough for you

by the way play much golf in the last while
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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. When you say brown nosing do you mean brown nosing like this?
http://www.alternet.org/audits/95083

You are aware that we have quite a lot of oil interest in that region ourselves right?
And that Azerbijan is pretty much run by our government? And that our military "advisors" were only in Georgia because Exxon/Chevon/BP have a pipeline running through that country. We are in bed with some of the worst countries in the world. You do realize that right?
You have heard of our relationship with Saudi Arabia I hope?

Also is it possible that Jim was in reference to cards not golf when refering to "aces".
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hankthecrank Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Brown nosing fits them good on this
So how many good people died at the russian labor camps. I guess russia was helping out with peace then too.

Gee I didn't realize all that thanks for the help. not

If Russians had stayed in South Ossetia, than that would back up their claims but they are wandering all over the rest of country why is that!!! Why are they out South Ossetia! answer that.

Also claims of how many people killed in South Ossetia have to still to come out not as hi as said. Said by doctors working in the area. We will see. Than the world court can weigh in.

Why are they at the port that's not even close to South Ossetia, some of the people are pro russian. doesn't give them the right to be there also. So I quess while they are their they would just help themselves to that part of Georgia too

Busie is pretty much joined at the hip with Saudi Arabia.

If we would have given Georgia a bit more point of the spear stuff then we would not seeing russia run around like they are lost. They would be a bit more broken russian crap. Can't fight a war if you don't have air power to help. Tanks are just so much junk with the right kind of tool. They should have started to fight guerilla style

No Jim said I can't make a clear point so yes I made it clear, didn't have any thing to do with cards. Got his nose out of joint because I said something about golf course being a waste of land. Care to comment on that or do you
know more than I do about this too
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
54. why is Russia in Georgia?
Um, when poppybush rushed to the defense of Kuwait, did we stop at Kuwait's borders after chasing Saddam out? No, we pushed him right back to Baghdad, and destroyed a ton of infrastructure along the way. I remember everybody back here screaming to take Baghdad and take out Saddam, but instead poppy left him in place to avoid the bloodbath we've witnessed over the last 5 years thanks to babybush.

So sorry that Russia finds it necessary to push back so hard on Georgia. That's what Georgia gets for stepping out of bounds. The physical evidence shows that Georgia, without provocation, wreaked most of the destruction in S. Ossettia. They burned (a hospital?) to the ground with people trapped inside, and not by accident. The Georgian "peacekeepers" opened fire on the Russian peacekeepers, without warning.

Note that the innocent civilians of S. Ossettia did NOT run for cover in Georgia. They ran to Russia because that is who they are culturally and politically aligned with, not Georgia. Democracy sucks when its recipients don't buy the neocon nightmare, doesn't it?

Note also the timing with the start of the Olympics. Bush stayed at the Olympics, smirking. Putin had to run back home to deal with it. That's because Bush *knew* what was coming -- his shit-team laid the groundwork in months in advance. Putin was caught by surprise. Well what was it bush said? You can fool some people but...whatever.

It's a lesson to Georgia and a lesson to w and his merry band of neocons.

Yes, it's all about oil and the pipeline. For both sides.
So what if Germany chooses to remind the west that Georgia started it? I'm surprised France hasn't spoken up yet either. They both have more than a vested interest in their pipeline than just getting oil. While w and his merry band of neocons have been squandering lives and wealth, Russia has been putting together very nice capitalist-style deals, including profit-sharing and shared management, with Germany, France, some S. American countries, and who knows who else.

So go eat a bunch of freedom fries and get the eff over it. Georgia asked for it. They got it. They don't like it, tough effing shit. bush and his band can threaten and whine and wring their hands. They can't do an effing thing about it, though, and they know it.

Oh, and just one other aside. The labor camps were SOVIET labor camps, not russian. Russia is not the Soviet Union. Russia is Russia.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. Face it. Russia is not an angel in this.
Georgia may have started the violence this time, but Russia was right there to take advantage of it. Russia does not want Georgia to be independent. Georgia should have stayed cool. The only person who gains from this is McCain.
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hankthecrank Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
64. Soviet labor camps replace imperial Russia camps
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 06:49 PM by hankthecrank
katorgas: Encyclopedia II - Gulag - History
From 1918 camp-type detention facilities were set up, as a reformed extension of earlier labour camps (katorgas), operated in Siberia as a part of penal system in Imperial Russia. The two main types were "Vechecka Special-purpose Camps" ("особые лагеря ВЧК") and forced labor camps (лагеря принудительных работ ;). They were installed for various categories of people deemed dangerous for the state: for common criminals, for prisoners of the Russian Civil War, for officials accused of corruption, sabotage and embezzlement, various political enemies and dissidents, as well as former aristocrats, b ...

So it seems your little russian buddies did have labor camps.

Your Buddy pootie poot also worked in the kgb so there is not much distance from Soviet union to russian is there

Democracy shines quite nicely in spite of the neocons.

Russian peace are keepers armed troops so they should be able to take care of themselves, also they very quick on hit back guess they had their part planned also
unless they used nuns to do it.

I always called them french fries had some today tasty

Russian will get over extended and when all the cacuses start to fight, they have to
run home with their tail between their legs like they did in Afghanistan

Russian have over played their hand. We'll see if they can still screw over the people in the cacuses like they have done in past.

people from the cacuses will not bow to your little buddies like they did in the past

So they could have put people on trial for starting the shelling in South Ossetians
and the person who started it could have been hurt. No they want whole lot of people who didn't have anything to do with hurt. So its good you like the bully. Little people always have to suffer.

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rhiannon55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
8. He makes a good point
regardless of what some people think of his politics. And Georgia WAS the aggressor here, regardless of how Bush and McBush try to spin it.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
35. i definitely agree.
90% of the People living in the disputed area have claimed Russian citizenship in the last 5 years.

they did it for a reason, you know...
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
40. Well...
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 01:30 PM by sofa king
Not to be overly critical here, rhiannon55, but both sides are aggressors. Schroeder chose his words carefully: "The starting point of the military confrontation was Georgia's march into South Ossetia." He was trying to be fair, and the use of that qualifier also quietly points the finger at the Russians.

If you back up a couple of weeks, months, years, it's quite clear that the Russians have been backing the separatist movements in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. We know that the Russians have no love for Caucasian separatist movements in their own territory--witness the Chechnyian debacle practically right next door--so why are they fomenting them in Georgia, and isn't that an act of aggression, too?

Strategically, it would appear as if the Russians are attempting to create a line of weak border states in the Caucasus Mountans, to serve as a buffer between themselves and their historical enemies in Georgia.

As I've said before, there is no morally superior side amongst any of the peoples involved in this conflict, and the amoral United States injecting itself into the problem simply underscores that. All of them are driven by self interest and goals which have absolutely nothing to do with the self-determination of a small mountain state. Ultimately it is the South Ossetians who will be victimized the most, but they're hardly behaving as saints themselves.

What the Russians did, and what everyone should have expected them to do, is flex their enormous military muscles in response to a border dispute. Whether or not they created that dispute themselves is less important than the historical fact that the Russians more than most nations are quite neurotic over their border security and territorial integrity.

When it comes out that Karl Rove and Condi Rice helped plan the inciting incident with the Georgians, lots of people will want to pick sides in the matter, but I think it's important to remember that they're all being assholes.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
9. "Georgia's march into South Ossetia"
Edited on Sat Aug-16-08 08:17 AM by edwardlindy
They actually used tanks and armoured vehicles. CNN showed them destroyed on the streets of Tskhinvali.
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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. Finally a leader who talks some truth.
It's amazing how many here at DU still believe in our U.S./western media. DU used to have a lot of informed people who offered great links to information. Now it seems to be mostly reactionary people who are stuck in a non progressive mainstream mentality. Either that or there's a lot of right wing trolls here lately who love the old cold war. I guess thats what happens though when something becomes popular. Do yourselves a favor folks and turn off your TV's and get your news internationally. Your brains will feel a lot nicer. Lying to oneself and accepting misinformation as fact is a lousy way to live your life.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Yes, if more people did that, the Bushies and their allies wouldn't get away with
half the stuff they have.

Read foreign news sources. It's easy in this Internet era, and even some of the foreign-language media have English versions.

If you get MHz Worldview TV, you can even WATCH foreign news sources.

Our own news media have gone from being run by journalists to being run by corporate bean counters.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
50. Even better, read what they tell their own citizens.
Not through Babble-fish.

Making sure to know where the lines of power run. We're cognizant of corporate control and domination of US media, right? Why are we exceptional?

But since we don't know how it works in another country, and what's said suits our POV (and, possibly, that of power-brokers in the other country), we confuse our ignorance for their brilliance.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. its so ez to read msm these days-most everything is a lie
it is troubling that half of america doesn't get it after all the lies and scams- "guess it doesn't matter anyway"
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
15. Schroeder is owned by the Russians
He works for Russian oil interests. He set up the job while he was still in office, using his position to push through the pipeline project he would later work for.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Well, he sure don't belong to Bush.
Schroeder Defends His New Russian Job

After days of silence former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has fired back at critics demanding from him to give up his new job at a German-Russian pipeline project.

"Politicians and the media have spread much nonsense recently," Schroeder told Tuesday's Sueddeutsche Zeitung, a Munich-based daily. "I am only 61 years old; I want to work and not stay at home and get on my wife's nerves."

Russian President Vladimir Putin asked Schroeder last Friday to head the advisory board of the The Northern European Gas Pipeline (NEGP), a German-Russian consortium building an underwater natural gas pipeline from Siberia to Germany. The former chancellor had pushed the project along with Putin during his last weeks in office.

Schroeder's new job, less than a month after he left politics, has sparked outrage in and out of Germany.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Schroeder_Defends_His...

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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Of course, he belongs to Putin n/t
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
51. For many, it's simple.
"Doesn't belong to Bush" means he thinks clearly and is wise.

"Belongs to Putin" is parsed as "bkts vgt iutf", and dismissed as noise, by some; by others, it's "Well, Putin's just okay, so great."
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Sometimes you just can't win.
You agree with a guy, you even look up and link support for his point of view, and it still isn't good enough.
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bronxiteforever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. The Germans despise American foreign policy since the GOP took over
"Forty-eight percent of Germans think the United States is more dangerous than Iran, a new survey shows, with only 31 percent believing the opposite."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,4746 ...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. That may be so, but still it doesn't detract from the fact that Georgia began this war
by attacking South Ossetia and obliterating Tskhinvali, a city of 100,000 souls.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Georgia suppressed a Russia-backed insurrection
Russia has been planning to invade Georgia since Georgia started working to be a part of NATO. They prepositioned troops and repaired a railway line to support an eventual invasion. The Georgia attack was in response to Russian separatists in South Ossetia, backed and armed by Russia, who started shooting people and bombing things.

Remember, Putin has arranged things like this before. Don't be fooled like Bushy was, Putin is evil.

The modern international rules of war say that without a UN authorization for the use of force Russia can't legally attack Georgia unless Russia itself was attacked. Georgia's attack was an internal issue that should have been addressed by the UN. If you want to bring up that there were Russians in South Ossetia and Putin was just protecting Russians, I remind you of Hitler's excuse to invade the Sudetenland.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. NATO is a warmongering organization that should have been disbanded decades ago!
Explain to me how an "self-defense" organization was used to launch a war of aggression against the former Yugoslavia.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Whatever NATO is isn't the point
Georgia was looking to alliances with the West, and Putin could not allow that to happen.

Putin also obviously doesn't like NATO since it held back the USSR from invading Europe for decades.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. May I point out that the Warsaw Pact came into existence in response to NATO
It was the US that established a nuclear weapons industry at Oak Ridge capable of producing thousands of bombs, far more than would be needed against Germany and Japan. Clearly, the entire thrust of American foreign policy at the end of WWII was to maintain a nuclear monopoly, and keep a large peacetime military, in order to protect corporate interests overseas and destroy any inroads by progressive forces, regardless of their being Red or not.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. It still doesn't matter
Your paranoid claims aside, RIGHT NOW Georgia is looking to alliances with the West. Putin will not allow that to happen, which is why he has been planning to invade Georgia for months.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
21. We know what Bush wants, Russia wants, and Georgia wants.
But we don't actually know what the people of Ossetia and Abkhazia want.
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savistocate Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. They are not simply 'pro-Rus'
but have ties of ancestry to Russian. North do want to be in Rus by cu;tural economic ties
and South have had a referendum strong majority choose Russian nationaity. Outrageous without justification, except self interest, U.S.-GOP refuse to recognize it.

Ukraine on the other hand is most definitely a separate culture. My good friend in my 20's was a mortorcycle riding high school girl from Detroit--we met in NY--yrs later for her.. I clearly saw the distinction they make. They choose independence and good we -honest US gov--protect their independence.

Initial news report Fri last wk was 10 Russian peacekeepers sanctioned by UN were killed---first move by Georgia, then moving forces into So Ossettia.
McCain "many phone calls to the Georgia hd of state"--his surrogates there interferring; Rove representing Cheney-PNAC-Schueneman is well documented.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Don't matter. This is about bid'ness.
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Winston. Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
45. But we don't actually know
"But we don't actually know what the people of Ossetia and Abkhazia want."

They voted over 90% for independence from Georgia...
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Thank you! That's wonderful. Russia is spreading and defending democracy as we seek to expand our
Evil Empire. This is like a Bizaro Superman world remix of Land Of Confussion. Bizaro superman where are you now? When everythings gone wrong somehow. These men of steel. These men of power. Are losing control by the hour. Ain't that just the truth.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
23. Before we bestow laurels on Mr. Schroeder to telling the truth, let's look at a possible motive.
Before we bestow laurels on Mr. Schroeder to telling the truth, which he did, let's look at a possible motive. Honesty is not a trait of capitalists! From WaPo:

Gerhard Schroeder's Sellout

Tuesday, December 13, 2005; Page A26


IT'S THE SORT of behavior we have -- sadly -- come to expect from some in Congress. But when Gerhard Schroeder, the former German chancellor, announced last week that he was going to work for Gazprom, the Russian energy behemoth, he catapulted himself into a different league. It's one thing for a legislator to resign his job, leave his committee chairmanship and go to work for a company over whose industry he once had jurisdiction. It's quite another thing when the chancellor of Germany -- one of the world's largest economies -- leaves his job and goes to work for a company controlled by the Russian government that is helping to build a Baltic Sea gas pipeline that he championed while in office. To make the decision even more unpalatable, it turns out that the chief executive of the pipeline consortium is none other than a former East German secret police officer who was friendly with Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, back when Mr. Putin was a KGB agent in East Germany. If nothing else, Mr. Schroeder deserves opprobrium for his bad taste.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
29. At least one politician leads with the obvious truth
I can't say that I care whether there is some beneficial "angle" to it. Perhaps we will find that the Georgian bastards who rolled into Ossetia, artillery blazing, were in fact simply killing equally rotten people.

Who knows...but some credit to a politician for not lying. No credit at all to any politician or media source on this side of the water yet.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Schroeder Defends His New Russian Job ( oh really ? )
Kehl Am Rhein, Germany (UPI) Dec 13, 2005

After days of silence former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has fired back at critics demanding from him to give up his new job at a German-Russian pipeline project.
"Politicians and the media have spread much nonsense recently," Schroeder told Tuesday's Sueddeutsche Zeitung, a Munich-based daily. "I am only 61 years old; I want to work and not stay at home and get on my wife's nerves."

Russian President Vladimir Putin asked Schroeder last Friday to head the advisory board of the The Northern European Gas Pipeline (NEGP), a German-Russian consortium building an underwater natural gas pipeline from Siberia to Germany. The former chancellor had pushed the project along with Putin during his last weeks in office.

Schroeder's new job, less than a month after he left politics, has sparked outrage in and out of Germany.


snip

The Washington Post called the move "Schroeder's sell-out," and said Merkel should base German-Russian foreign policy "on something other than Mr. Schroeder's private interests."

snip



http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Schroeder_Defends_His...

no conflict of interests there eh ? ;)
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savistocate Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. The snip -snipe- is not reporting..
but comment conclusions pov! and Wash post has for some time gone RWer bigtime. Though continues commentary from saner minds -as Eugene Robinson.

Overall background on the region--oil and who maneuvers for it: trying to remember the Bond movie -World is Not Enough, googled james bond caspian region. Many good news stories there: one oilcrisis link is SanJose Merc News...anothe csmonitor.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
49. "Schroeder says Georgia sparked fighting" - true or not?
If I were an Ossetian or Abkhazian I'd be tearing out my hair - how their little claim to liberty is bent to every selfish and self-serving agenda imaginable by the rest of the world. Bush and McCain are two of the worst, but as mentioned I have heard nothing good from any media or political outlet. Schroeder at least tells a simple truth, regardless of what his own purpose might be.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #49
70. True or not ; Schroeder still a politician ? When did the spark really start
His paychecks are drawn from Russian oil reserves.
This Georgian invasion of 'Georgia' was not the cause, it was the effect triggered by the spark from the orange revolution and the end of the Soviet union.

As we may soon see, the time line continues. The next domino test may be Ukraine's 17% Russian population being given Russian passports.

Now, when will those Russian ships "spark" a need to return to their Ukraine ports ?

btw
What would you do if you were a Ukrainian citizen with Russian relatives ?
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. Of course, causes and effects go back far before the "orange revolution"
Edited on Sun Aug-17-08 11:36 AM by bhikkhu
The Ossetians are historically of the Alan ethnic group, which relocated to the Caucasus to escape Mongol predations. They were absorbed into the Russian Empire along with Georgia in 1801, and ironically the current conflict has numerous antecedents. The Georgians were apparently "given" rule over the Ossetians, after the medieval tradition of a hierarchy of lords and subjects. In a series of uprisings the Ossetians repeatedly rejected Georgian rule, and it was Moscow that quelled and mediated. The Ossetians sided with the Bolsheviks in the Russian revolution, and were given their hoped for reward - local autonomy. That was in 1921.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Georgia's claim to lordship over Ossetia and ownership of its territory is a farce with a long history.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Your source politician has a conflict of interest when putting out his original statement
France and Germany vetoed Georgians NATO membership . The former Chancellor of Germany and the former Finance Minister of France are on Gazproms board of directors .
And the effect of that NATO membership veto ?
It gave Putin cause to prod,antagonize and issue Russian passports to those living in the two regions if they would refuse to assimilate and demad independence.

Putin has been baiting and waiting for that Georgian to cross a tripwire line. And damned if he did in a big way;
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0f4_1219011446


Following events after 1930's a citizen from Georgia worked his way up into a position over the years to a position that rivaled Hitler in the killing of its citizens.
Bet Russia still has citizens in gulags that understand what Putin is doing is very similar to what Hitler did in getting the world to accept his pleas for The Sudetenland .


http://worldwar2database.com/html/czech.htm

Same situation is set up,in place and could play out in the Ukraine..... tomorrow
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Does Ukraine have anyone to invade?
Not that I am disagreeing on the positioning and behind the scenes stuff...but other than Transdneister I don't know of any similar Russian-leaning unrecognized states.
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Response to Original message
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
42. Georgia and her push-up bras and micro mini skirts. Just asking for it. nt
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matt007 Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
44. Well they kinda did
let south ossetia and north ossetia merge and stay part of Russia.

Abkhazia can get a Kosovo style quasi independence. Everyone is happy. Except Georgia.....who doesnt really matter.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
46. Germany's Schroeder is Right of Course but many
here on this very thread are now involved in character assassination of Schroeder himself. I take no sides in this, but facts are facts, and what Schroeder says about Georgia starting this conflict, is also an undeniable fact regardless of how one feels about Russia or how extreme Russia's retaliation was, which is a whole other topic. We also know for a fact that Georgia has ties with many neo-cons who orchestrated the Iraqi invasion.....

Let me get this straight, I am a Democrat and a liberal, and have no loyalty to Russia or Georgia.... the first meat head that calls me a Russian sympathizer gets placed on ignore and I will question why that person is on DU in first place. This is not a discussion forum for pro-war idiots and I think anyone intimating such a thing should be alerted on. Killing is not a Democratic or liberal or progressive value.
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Unfortunately DU currerently seems to be overrun by warmongers
Where can they all be coming from ?

As for Putin, Cheney and Bush when they stare into each others eyes they just see themselves looking back.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. well said.... interesting
It would be very wise for mods to ask for neutrality, since this conflict has neo-con fingerprints all over it.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. I don't know if you've seen this article..
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20508.h...

site has a lot of great articles about the neocon hegemony project and its relationships with/against other world powers. Of course, the article is fairly critical of Obama's foreign policy wonks (Brzezinski), so I'm sure that will cause 80% of DU to reject it for that reason alone :eyes:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. thank you..... I will read this later
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Not quite undeniable facts
"and what Schroeder says about Georgia starting this conflict, is also an undeniable fact "

There is good evidence that Putin started it by supporting the Russian separatists in Georgia. To whatever extent that is true, it still make's Schroeder's statement not an undeniable fact.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. Maybe You Should Start a Thread about This Evidence
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
59. The fact that Georgia, trained and equipped by the US, started this shit.
That doesn't mean we have to love Putin or Russian imperialism. However, it's not even DISPUTED beyond the realms of Western MSM propaganda that Georgia (UNPROVOKED), emboldened by the White House's support, invaded Ossetia before Russia even crossed the border.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #46
71. You a Kucinich supporter I see so what has he said on record about Georgia ? nt
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
61. The German and Austrian press has suggested that Georgia "started" this but that the facts are hazy.
So, this is not original with Schroeder. The German press, however, faults Russia in many respects and warns that Russia should leave the situation alone. Who started this specific flare-up does not resolve the situation which has apparently been an open wound since Ossetia broke off in 1991-92.

What I have wondered is why in the world Russia was entrusted with peace-keeping in the area. How did that ever slip by NATO.

Still, I suspect strongly that Georgia was encouraged to think it could stir this up right now because a problem in Ossetia would place security at the forefront of Americans' minds and help McCain. I hate to be so cynical, but why else would this happen so many years after Ossetia broke off?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. If the Neo-Cons DIdn't Have So Much Many Hands Involved
I would probably have gone along with the MSM.... but knowing enough about Georgia's President and how he is so connected to the same neo-cons that helped orchestrate the Iraqi invasion... uh-uh... no way.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
72. A Russia-China-Germany bloc is a real possibility.
Russia and Germany have a very special relationship.
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frankieT Donating Member (375 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
74. 1.Georgia started the war 2.They lost.
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Terranist Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-08 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
75. Schroeder knows his stuff.
I don't know much about the conflict but I know that.
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Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
78. Schroeder: US military advisors likely to have had information about planned attack
Edited on Mon Aug-18-08 09:58 AM by Satyagrahi
SPIEGEL: Mr. Schrder, who is at fault for the Caucasus war?

Gerhard Schrder: The hostilities undoubtedly have their historic causes, as well, and the conflict has had several historic precursors. But the moment that triggered the current armed hostilities was the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia. This should not be glossed over.

-snip-

SPIEGEL: Do you believe that the American military advisors stationed in Tbilisi encouraged Georgia to launch its attack?

Schrder: I wouldn't go that far. But everyone knows that these US military advisors in Georgia exist -- a deployment that I've never considered particularly intelligent. And it would have been strange if these experts had not had any information. Either they were extremely unprofessional or they were truly fooled, which is hard to imagine.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,572686...
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