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Solar Power Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 06:47 AM
Original message
IRAQIS BLAME U.S INVASION FOR DISCORD..
Edited on Wed Dec-19-07 07:13 AM by Solar Power
Source: MSNBC..........AND WASHINGTON POST

All Iraqi groups blame U.S. invasion for discord
See departure of 'occupying forces' as key to reconciliation, study shows


BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqis of all sectarian and ethnic groups believe that the U.S. military invasion is the primary root of the violent differences among them, and see the departure of "occupying forces" as the key to national reconciliation, according to focus groups conducted for the U.S. military last month.

That is good news, according to a military analysis of the results. At the very least, analysts optimistically concluded, the findings indicate that Iraqis hold some "shared beliefs" that may eventually allow them to surmount the divisions that have led to a civil war

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22322180 /



Of course this discord did not exist before our coming to help out. It was just kept under wraps by guess who? I recall that after Tito died something similar happened in Yugoslavia..a little ethnic cleansing. But this time, it was the U.S. invasion, according to Iraqis , that set this keg on fire. Now who's idea was that...to invade a country to do what? ...set it on fire?..
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. hey, bush is a "uniter"!
he's uniting everyone against us.
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Solar Power Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. His uniting caused the deaths of how many?
Yep he really knows how to unite people against us..His decision has killed hundreds of thousands.......sad..
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
45. It's very dangerous to forget the facts and give out blind free passes.
Here are some folks that either voted yes to the war or at least voted to fund more ammo to continue the bloodshed. Some of these names also went out of their way to ignore the evidence and use Buchco propaganda against Iraq, Saddam and Al queida.

Biden
Clinton
Edwards
Dodd
Obama
Richardson


Always question why they did this, they had the same evidence that Dennis Kucinich had and was speaking out about, why did they ignore it? What was their agenda and who benefited from that agenda? We the sheeple didn't! We are so caught up in their soap opera, WWE wrestling type bullshit, that we ignore what is really happening in our country. How the hell have we as a people decided that the constitution being trashed isn't an issue with us, are we that stupid?
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ScooterFibby Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
46. Yep he's united everyone against us!
You hit it right on the head.
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mac56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah, they all agree how much we're hated
for invading their country, killing their people...

Yeah. He's a uniter, not a divider, all right.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. Duh.
K & R

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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. Wrong. wrong. wrong.
To blame the US. The US is predominately against this invasion.

They need to blame only one person, and one person alone. The creep in charge.
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Don't forget his Vice-creep, Cheney n/t
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
38. The US is predominately against this invasion NOW.
About 90% were for it when they thought it would be cheap and easy.

Bush also had the help of Congress, the pre-approval of the Southern Baptist Convention, cheering and flag waving on TV news, major papers, hate radio...

No, it's not just the creep in charge.

Sad to say, but it's not.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. You are right. BUT - if it wasn't for him, and him alone, this nightmare
would have never happened. A single President, who is honorable, decent, intelligent, and not a war-mongering liar, would never have let anyone talk him into anything he would have known was wrong.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I guess what I'm getting at is that we don't just have a guy in the WH that made bad decisions
We have a large, organized group of what I'd call traitors who don't like the idea of all those pesky individual rights getting in the way of their riches and power.

They spent decades funding think tanks, cable news, hate radio, etc. in order to turn America far enough around that they could make a grab for all the marbles.

They plotted, propagandized, invested tons of money, packed courts and so on and so on until 2000 when they decided to strike.

They pick Dubya as their front man, but it didn't have to be him. They'd have come up with some other stooge if GWB hadn't been available -- and they'll find more like him in the future.

If we want to stop this from happening again, we have to see the game for what it is and not just focus on the puppet in the Oval Office.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
7. Well, now, there's a duh moment
I mean really, I hope they didn't spend much on that study.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. "Uh, hi, Mr. Obvious? Long-time listener, first-time caller."
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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
8. kick and highly recommend. n/t
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DetlefK Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
10. The example of Tito is wrong.
Tito was a dictator and his strong rule kept the ethnic violence low. Once he was dead, the people of Yugoslavia were free. Free to do good or to do bad.

The Yugoslavian civil war began with a rise in nationalism among Croats. They began showing their flag (chessboard-pattern in white and blue) more and more often. This was a serious problem: The Croats worked with the Nazis in WWII and oppressed the Serbs. So the croatian Serbs regarded the new croatian nationalism as a danger and a provocation. That led to their desire to segregate and to form militias to protect themselves. This lead to croatian police cracking down on Serbs...

Politics is just a hobby for me, but my quick guess is, that the Iraqis have more in common with each other than the Yugoslavians. As far as I have understood, it wasn't Sunnis vs Shiites under Saddam's rule, but Sunni dictator vs Shiites.
"It was all Saddam's fault. He's to blame. We didn't mean to do you harm. Let's forget it and try to live in peace."
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Solar Power Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
11.  I would desagree..
Edited on Wed Dec-19-07 07:35 AM by Solar Power
For whatever reasons, the ethnic hatred was kept in check. Perhaps it wasn't a nice way, yet it was not on fire. Without Tito, and he was in some ways, a unifying influence, the country soon fell apart. (or nationalism emerged to divide the country into separate countries) call it what you want..Tito prevented the killing of many..
..In a similar manor Hussein prevented the powder keg of Iraq exploding. (which it has) ...for better or worse, Hussein used brutal methods to do this. And killed many. So did this invasion. The invasion killed many. You can be the judge as to which is better or worse. ........or perhaps , the same
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PianoBlack Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. I agree with solar....
The main reason I (in my infinite foolishness)supported bush way back in the beginning of this occupation (because it STILL isn't a war) is that Saddam Hussein was psychotic. He killed so many of his own people that it was disgusting...but now look what has happened?

How many Iraqi citizens died?
How many Iraqi terrorists (freedom fighters?) died?
How many US citizens are dead?

It is horrible to think of.

Oh...and remind me what the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter? Last I checked...couldn't our founding fathers be considered terrorists? What the hell does terrorist mean anymore?
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. The example of Tito is wrong??????
WTF? I apologize that I don't have a degree in history, however you actually prove your own negative in the body of the text. Tito ran his country with an iron fist. He allowed certain things, but he also dealt swiftly with discontent. I see Saddam as a puppet of the US and England since before his rise to power. Saddam lost his mentors only when he made the Saudis pissed at him when he invaded Kuwait. I can even see that we encouraged, if not down right aided Saddam with his power ploy. Hasty negotiations were the rule at the onset of that war I am sure.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
36. Agree.
The widespread factional violence we see today is a first since the 1920s in Iraq. That's not to say there were NO animosities but they were mostly localized disturbances which popped up across the years, regardless of who was in charge. The cosmopolitan areas generally had a very integrated nature, Sunni and Shi'ite mosques and Christian churches stood side by side (relatively speaking), most tribes and many families had both Sunni and Shi'ite members, just as here a family might have Catholics, Methodists and Jews.

It was not just Saddam that held it together - in fact, I suspect he is largely a part of the reason it disintigrated as quickly as it did, with his paranoid dependence upon his Sunni Tikriti family exacerbating the Sunni/Shia divide.

I have long thought that the bombing of the Golden Mosque, that kicked the civil war into high gear, was a black bag job, because at that time the Sunni and Shi'ite militias were beginning to cooperate in their attacks on the US occupiers. Both were allying against the cross-border intruders whom we have deemed to all be Al Queda - they weren't fighting for some Wahabbhi jihad. They were fighting for their national independence from western invaders, just like they did in the 20s. Shi'ite and Sunni alike did not want Saudis and Yememis turning their country into a battleground. So we blow up the mosque, and turn them against each other, and away from us.

At least, that's my take on it.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
49. you might want to do more research before you make a "quick guess"
Sunni/Shia animosity goes back 1400 years. Because of the Sunni dominance (not JUST Sunni dictator - the entire government) it was kept in check. Yes, there was "peaceful coexistence" - while major portions of the country were segregated (Shia south; Sunni west and the "Sunni triangle" - Baghdad was highly mixed. The brutality of the SH regime WAS imposed largely against the Kurds and the Shia. But it was one-sided, and any Sunni's who stepped out of line caught it too. Toppling that regime did exactly the same thing you describe for Yugoslavia. That is the tragedy - we had a recent example to show what to expect. There was a brief period during which something like Biden's plan might have been worked out fairly peaceably. Then the US started treating Sunni's like dirt AND outsiders (OBL-inspired) started crap like bombing the Golden Mosque with the INTENT of lighting the powderkeg. We created the insurgency. In hindsight, I believe the administration did not screw up as badly as it appeared. They did exactly what they WANTED to do. A quick decapitation and peaceable reorganization of the government was not what they wanted, any more than they wanted to catch OBL at Tora Bora.

No, we have spent 3700+ American lives (since "Mission Accomplished) and brought immeasurable misery and tragedy to 37 million people by design. Of COURSE the Iraqis say we are the problem. we ARE!

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Branjor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
13. I read Baghdad Burning...
Riverbend's blog. And according to her all the different groups in Iraq, Sunnis, Shia, Christians, Kurds, got along pretty well together until the US invaded and the fundamentalists stepped into the power void that created.
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Solar Power Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Some evidence of this is....
Edited on Wed Dec-19-07 07:50 AM by Solar Power
Some evidence that these groups got along was that they lived together in integrated neighborhoods. That shows there was some acceptance of the others beliefs. You don't live next door to someone unless you are able to at least accept that person on some kind of equal footing.
..It seems to me, (in viewing the ethnic violence of the last 2 or 3 years) that this acceptance has disappeared. In reality, the country has already divided itself. At what cost????? Instigated by whom? For whose benefit??...answer those questions please..
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
54. They didn't just live in integrated neighborhoods
...they inter-married! Though we've been led to believe otherwise, the differences between Sunni and Shia are no more than between Catholic and Baptist. And just like here, the majority of people in Iraq didn't let those religious differences divide them. It's the religious extremists who keep the hatred burning. And of course the government uses that, as here, to try and keep the focus off what they're doing.
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Stuart G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. I agree, we may have destroyed the social fabric of the country.
A result of this war may be the destruction of the social fabric of this country. By allowing a situation to begin, with no planning and forsite, our government, let by the Neo Cons, probably have destroyed the social cohesion of this country. Once this so called ethnic cleansing began, chances for these people to live together as a single country have deteriorated. (perhaps forever).. I wonder if they will ever accept responsibility for this.
I wonder if Georgie even knows?
,,, What an awful thing to think--that our country destroyed the ability of another country's people to live in peace together.......
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
14. well then lets go
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
17. Damn what gave them that idea?
Could it be the 4 years of fighting? The total destruction of the infrastructure? The destruction of their economy? 1/3 of their citizens killed or maimed? Take your pick, no it's all of them.
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Solar Power Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
18. Let's watch this story today, and tomorrow..I bet they kill it...
Edited on Wed Dec-19-07 08:01 AM by Solar Power
I bet that the mainstream media kills this story ,

I doubt that it will get into today's talk shows, or the 6pm news. (maybe NBC will play it, but don't count on it.) or anywhere across the nation...(I hope I am wrong).............
Except in certain blogs, and some liberal media venues..Like Keith Olbermann's show, they have in the past, killed stories like this.
It just doesn't look good.. Sadly, the general public here, needs to know about this. How the mainstream media is able to keep a story like this from getting extensive coverage, is beyond me.........
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Solar Power Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Only one way that this story could get extensive coverage..
.....Yes, I just thought of a way that this story could get widespread extensive coverage from coast to coast, all news shows..etc.

ALL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT USE THIS STORY IN THEIR CAMPAIGNS AGAINST THIS WAR.
OVER AND OVER AGAIN.............


yes, that will do it...and all, means all...the mainstream media will have to cover this story then....
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
19. "Good news", military analysts say--
uhhh....they hate us, blame their problems on us, and want us to leave, and that's good news? Sounds like we didn't win too many of those hearts and minds, did we?
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
21. So, we can bring the soldiers home now ...
right?

We did our jobs, we came, we saw, we screwed-up.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
22. Why are they complaining? Bush helped them wipe out their "Christian Problem."
Mission Accomplished, Fundies who trusted Bush.
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groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
23. Free flowing Iraqi oil would have kept prices low but that wasn't the plan
The neo-cons really don't give a shit what the Iraqis think or want, democracy or not. That's not why they invaded. It's almost all about the oil. Without a U.S. occupation, Iraqis control their oil and their destiny. Eliminate the poverty and the occupation there and most of the sectarian violence will die down. Neo-cons don't like that scenario.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
24. Gee... who woulda thunk? n/t
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
25. It is amazing that this will come as news to some people.
Edited on Wed Dec-19-07 08:52 AM by BrklynLiberal
Absolutely nothing positive came from this invasion, and that even includes the overthrowing of Saddam Hussein. He could have been dealt with in many other ways. It was actually his invasion of Kuwait, which was, in fact, done with tacit US approval...and perhaps his threat to start trading oil in Euros rather than dollars, that were the keys to this entire situation.
There were, and still are, governments/dictators around the world that were just as bad, if not worse than Saddam, but BushCo did not invade them.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
26. "the departure of "occupying forces" as the key to national reconciliation"
No, really?
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momster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
27. Okay, Bye.
Can we bring them home now? Huh? Huh? Is this thing on?
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rockybelt Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
28. So let's
impeach the son of a bitches that got us there in the first place. Hundreds of thousands killed, millions displaced, a country divided, ethnic cleansing, a corrupt government, contractors raping the country. Nice job Bush and Cheney. Impeach these bastards and then send them off to stand trial for crimes against humanity.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
29. I'm honestly ashamed of myself right now. I saw this headline and
I laughed.

Of course the US is responsible. It's going to be a little hard to pin this on anyone else.
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focusfan Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
30. Iraqi's are just now figuring out that we should'nt be over there
i have totally been against this war from the get go
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. Not likely they're just figuring it out.
They were no doubt against it from the "get go" as well.

WTF?!
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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
31. We came
for your oil and we're not leaving without it.Bushco'motto,blood for oil.
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captain jack Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
32. While 70 Billion US taxpayer dollars heads thier way.
The US way is not working in Iraq for Iraqi people, nor is the Iraqi way working for the people of the US. Of course if peace reigns the money stops moving and lets not forget that's US jobs. Killing people is a business and business is good. Check your portfolio. I suppose it's working out only for a few on both sides that benefit from killing people though not so much the sheep doing the killing. Everything about this "war" is a joke. Merry Christmas "christians" and a Happy New Year of more of the same. Bring on the whitewash and hypocracy.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
33. Well, we illegally invaded their country, killed untold numbers
of their citizens, bombed the shit out of their infrastructure, destroyed their economy, pillaged their oil, knocked down their doors, terrorized their citizens....I'd say they have every reason to be pissed and to want us the hell out.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
34. anyone who is willing to kill for the slightest perceived insult
to their religion can never get along with another religion with the same degree of zealotry. It is always a fight to the death. We can thank the zealotry of booshcobal for opening that can of deadly vipers. Sadam was running one of the few non secular regimes in that region which is the only glue that can hold a bucket of poisoned and poisonous zealots together. Sadam was a dictator who held together the impossible with a good deal of common sense and created one of the most educated citizenry in the middle east and vastly expanded the middle class but a dictator none the less. You want to talk about really vicious dictators running secular regimes who care for nothing but the thousands of members of the royal family and the very rich look to $audi @rabia
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RethugAssKicker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
35. OF COURSE ... Its the US fault..... Anyone
who can think otherwise is a complete ASS !!!

Unbelievable... that many in the MSM is spinning this as We are over there to help them !!!
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #35
50. we are there to help
the way the mafia helps when they don't kneecap you if you pay the protection money
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
37. Well, DUH!
They needed to write an article on this? WTF?
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #37
48. ditto
Recommended.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
40. Isn't the U.S. just special!!
What other nation in the world acts like such a monumental ass.
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Stuart G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. well........in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s..there was a country..

I think that they called is something like...........The Soviet Union.......

But a while ago they cut the place up...like a giant gig saw puzzle, so now its got 10 or 15 different names.
....they had a guy named Niketa...he was similar to our guy..Georgie...
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
44. Runner up for this year's "You Call This NEWS?" award
Edited on Wed Dec-19-07 07:36 PM by rocknation
It's good news that all Iraqis are united in the belief that Bush should get the hell out? Sniff sniff--shouldn't I be smelling onions?


:crazy:
rocknation
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
47. in related news...
rape victim blames rapist for rape
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Stuart G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
51. What this really means to me...
What this really means to me. (in my opinion)

This poll taken I guess to see what Iraqis think proves that:

l. Every single assumption that Bush presented was wrong.
(such as WMDs, Create Democratic Society, Improve life in Iraq, We would help in area..etc.

2. Getting us out, will improve the situation.

3. That getting us out is what most Iraqis want..

4. That Democrats have failed as have the Republicans to listen to the will of the Iraqi people. If getting us out is what Iraqis want, then let's do what they want, and not the President. ....


The only assumption that was not presented clearly and openly to us, that probably is the truth (as someone's signature proudly proclaims..)........, this war is all about oil stupid.......
............300,000 -500,000 lives later..we see that...it was all about oil stupid..........
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:43 AM
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52. Didn't violence drop like 90% in Basra after the British left?
hmmm....

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eringer Donating Member (338 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 09:47 AM
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53. Looks like we found the reason the Lakotas have declared their independence from the USA!
Now, they await for Iraq to recognize their new country.
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