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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:33 AM
Original message
Breaking CNN: Israel attacks Palestinian training camp INSIDE Syria
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 03:37 AM by Melinda
No link yet, on TV as I type. Israeli army conducted operation deep inside Syria on alleged terrorist training camp. No word as to method or casualties.
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well, isn't that a happy event
Time to turn on CNN.
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It was only a matter of time, wasn't it?
Rhetorical question, no need to answer. Fuck Sharon and Bush both.
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Nottingham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
121. I knew they were going to hit Syria first! Escalation has Begun!
Bush needs WWIII right now! Next to go will be the Bushehr reactor in Iran! Its coming.!

:bounce:
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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
85. The TV Preachers are Ecstatic
Sickos keep egging Sharon on and on, they're no doubt ecstatic that they're one step closer to Armageddon
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
163. It is whatever israel says it is! No proof, no eviedenc e
Any Arab in israeli eyes is a terrorist. This is all part of their plan and they are doing the evil with US blessings. That woman who blew herself up did so in retaliation for the Israelis murdering her brother and cousin. A grief stricken, heartsick, and powerless people will use whatever means they can to fight back...no matter what the odds...what do they have to lose? But the US has plenty to lose when the blow back hits us. Thanks Bush! Thanks Sharon! Our lives will all be much better now!
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Rebel_with_a_cause Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. Does Israel need American military support?
I'm sure Bush would be happy to oblige, offering more than the previously supplied weapons of mass destruction.
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atlien Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
176. You're Kidding, Right?
No, they don't need US support. Not support, just checks with many, many zeros on them. But, no, support? No.
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Pez Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. wtf
bush is probably pissed; i thought he was saving attacking syria for his re-election campaign. well, there's always iran. no link here either; still waiting for cnn to update the website. here's what "started" this though: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1056482,0...

can i get a "what the eff"?

not a happy yom kippur...
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. This would not have happened without the U.S. greenlighting it.
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 04:17 AM by BillyBunter
Israel was making some paranoid noise about Iran's nuclear power plant last week; possibly Israel used that as a lever to get an OK for this attack.

One way or another, unCurious George definitely signed off on this. What a fucking mess he's made out of the world, because Israel, especially with Sharon, has a history of turning these little 'retaliatory' attacks into bloodbaths.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
129. Historically you are incorrect
Israel has been in trouble many times for doing things the US was not in favor of.

In case you haven't read about it...the US has been a much stronger ally for a longer time, of Saudi Arabia than of Israel.

When Israel bombed Iraqs nuclear program the US cutoff all intelligence to Israel.

Sharon is the first PM in Israeli history to be on a similiar page to a US President.
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DeathvadeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #129
145. Bullshit!!!!!
The US just puts on the sad face... Now Isreal, what did I tell you???? We condem the actions of Isreal etc etc etc Fuqin bullshit charade, behind the curtain deals are made and then its played out in front of the media like a fuqin play. This shit happens with the GOP and DLC at times as well...
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #145
147. I believe Nixon's actions halted the Israeli counter attack in 1973
so the U.S. is not completely without influence over Israel.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #145
171. Please read
the history of US/Israeli relations.

Truman supported Saudi Arabia during the war of 1948.

Eisenhower threatened to intervene against Israel and Englans in the Suez Canal thing.

The US didn't even send significant aid to Israel until 1973 and then only because they almost lost that war, plus it was Nixon's classic Triangulation policy.

There are many sorces you can find about this, from many angles.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #129
161. Historically, Israel has asked for U.S.
permission before every single invasion it has launched aginst its neighbors, except the 1956 land grab against Egypt. That time, it had the support of France and England, and so figured it didn't need U.S. approval -- a mistake, as it turned out, and one Israel has not repeated.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #161
173. You made that up
which is why you will not be able to support it when challenged.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #173
184. Then challenge it, son.
Show me one invasion of Israel's where they didn't have U.S. approval, with the exception of 1956. I made a flat out statement. If it is false, you should be able to disprove it with a concrete example.
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atlien Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #129
178. Historically and Presently, YOU are wrong.
The US unequivocally supports Israel, period. And there has never been a period in which they have not. And don't try to evidence it by erroneous reports about the US having "cut off" intelligence to Israel. Israel is where we get OUR mid east intelligence so think about that 50 cent claim. The truth is always found if you follow the money trail. And the US has NEVER cut off funding, the true indicator of support.

All agreed?

Good.
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piece sine Donating Member (931 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #178
190. you are 100% correction.
rare, clear- eyed analysis on a delirious thread, so far.
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. The only channel I can find that's actually covering it live
Is Faux. :puke: But I'll give them this, they're going live while the other channels are showing re-runs.
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Pez Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. turn on cnn...
...and turn off faux. that stuff will rot your brains.

heheh.

cnn is all over it. live.
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. well, now they are
But earlier they were sticking with a Capital Gang repeat.

Thanks for yhe alert though! CNN on now.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. Here's somemore info
Yahoo News

Israel Hits Islamic Jihad Base in Syria
5 minutes ago


JERUSALEM - The Israeli army attacked an Islamic Jihad training base in Syria in retaliation for a suicide bombing at a Haifa restaurant that killed 19 people, the army said in a statement Sunday.

The attack, which occurred late Saturday or early Sunday, took place at a training base deep in Syrian territory used by several terrorists organizations including Islamic Jihad, the army said.

Israel radio said the attack hit the Ein Saher camp.

The attack came several hours after a Palestinian woman wrapped in explosives entered a beachside restaurant in Haifa during the busy lunchtime hour and blew herself up, killing 19 people.
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Rebel_with_a_cause Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Laos/Cambodia
revisited.
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
120. Here's a comment from a PFLP commander:
A senior commander for the radical Damascus-based Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command told AP the camp belonged to his group and has been deserted for a long time. He said a civilian guard was injured in the raid.

So which is it? Islamic Jihad or PFLP? Either way we do not have the luxury of verifying the veracity of Israel's reason for this attack.

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/6939323.h...
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True_Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
7. Here's a link
Israel Hits Islamic Jihad Base in Syria

JERUSALEM - The Israeli army attacked an Islamic Jihad training base in Syria in retaliation for a suicide bombing at a Haifa restaurant that killed 19 people, the army said in a statement Sunday.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1...
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
8. Faux just said that this is the first attack on Syria in 30 years
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 03:48 AM by khephra
Shit...this is going to get nasty rather quickly.

Heh...this actually is a bit of a stumper for the Mods and Admins. This isn't a Israel/Pal thread--it's a Israel/Pal/Syria thread. I'm not quite sure where that falls.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. hell...
neither do I!

But for now, this is valid breaking news and is certainly welcome in LBN.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
70. that may not be technically true..
it's true that the Assad family has actually tried meticulously to keep Syria out of direct war with Israel (strange for all of their rhetoric) for about 30yrs, though when Israel invaded Lebanon in '82 they attacked the Syrian airforce and destroyed a few token air defense structures. Also, when Hizbullah's resistance operations were attacking the illegal Israeli occupiers in Lebanon a few years ago, I believe the IAF would occasionally take their anger out on Syrian buildings like radar stations/etc.

Not sure if that would technically count towards this figure.. this probably is serious, though I imagine the Syrian response would either be the high road of restraint for now (they turned the other way when US invaders butchered a convoy of innocent sheep smugglers in an act of reckless and unprovoked aggression, claiming it was "Saddam Hussein's convoy") or the exact opposite. If the latter, the Israelis may actually intend to provoke a bigger war (if Gissen's remarks elsewhere in this thread are accurate), in which case they may be biting off more than they can chew considering that they don't really have enough of an army to keep a police state over Palestine and invade at least 2 other Arab states at the same time.

Seems to be following the script nicely, I'm sure we'll have a fine parade of Israeli gov't figures across the networks for the next few days whipping up support for more adventurism, though I'm not really sure what they can do except threaten.
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #70
87. I wasn't sure myself, so that's why I put that it was Faux saying it
Me? I have no clue.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #70
130. The Syrian facilities you speak of
were IN LEBANON, its why Israel went there in the first place.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. Provocation by Sharon
Let's hope * doesn't bite.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. Syria has had a free ride too long
Jordan and Eypgt know you can't have terrorists without consequences.
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LivingInTheBubble Donating Member (360 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Attack doesn't work
against "terrorism", they will make more syrians anti-israel and therefore increase support for the palestinian resistance.

There may be a reason for this attack but its not to reduce terrorism.

I'm watching CNN, I guess they have switched it to the american feed since its breaking news. they have some right wing crazy on, i wonder if they will bother showing the other side of the story.

oh hold on, the ranting guy is their "expert". argghh
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Actually it looks like they're showing the CNN International feed
.
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LivingInTheBubble Donating Member (360 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
35. oh
Thanks for the clarification.
I have to admit I rarely watch CNN, Its a bit more right wing then I remember, I think Euronews has spoiled me :)

The CNN host at least did spend 10 seconds asking a question from the opposing view but thats all.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
74. But what has attacking like this brought us?
Plenty of deaths in Iraq for one thing. Need I go on?

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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
14. well, it'll be hard to blame this one on Arafat...
if it's based in Syria...
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:11 AM
Response to Original message
15. don't hate me, don't flame me.....
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 04:22 AM by E_Zapata
I am deleting my post because a NICE person PMd me and gave me good advice to do so.

Let me put it like this: THIS SHIT HAS GOT TO END.
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Pez Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. can i pick one or the other
so you would obliterate the group of humans you think is easiest to pick off? how noble.

it's easier when they're so far away, huh.
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Delete
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 04:36 AM by E_Zapata
More self-moderating.

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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Not to mention the fallout for those of us living
in the Arab world...
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Where and how do we all think this crap is going to end?
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 04:35 AM by E_Zapata
deleting yet another of my posts.

This has to stay in LBN. I am afraid an attack inside Syria is a major turning point in the times in which we live.

:-(
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. It's a myth that it's been going on for centuries.
The region was actually quite peaceful by world standards until just over a century ago, when this current round of bloodletting started. Colonialism has a bad record when it comes to establishing peace.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #31
135. What books do you get that out of?
people were fighting each other constantly. You are perpetuating propoganda that the ME was paradise before those pesky Jews started moving closer to their families.

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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #135
162. Where did I say it was 'paradise,' pray tell?
Any decent history of the region will cover this topic quite well. Hourani's is a good start, but again, there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of books that cover it. Pick one, read it, then come back.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #135
185. I'm still waiting.
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phgnome Donating Member (375 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #135
193. Not about Jews
It's not the "pesky Jews" that are preventing the ME from being at peace. If we are talking that it's only been in the last century, the trigger for the warring region began at the same time as the mass production of automobiles and industrialization.

You cannot say it is about anyone in particular or that saying that the warring in the region started about 100 years ago is spurred by any group of people. It is about cash, oil, and power for whoever wants it. The wars in the ME will end only when the oil runs out for the simple reason that the ME has something that many industrialized countries want.

Supply and demand.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. Get rid of Bush, Sharon, and Arafat
and that's just for starters.

The cycle of violence must be shattered, not simply stopped.

Of course, I guess we can expect the hardline from Bashir Assad now...
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. NOTE FROM MODERATOR
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 04:30 AM by Dookus
Hi all-

I'd like very much to keep this breaking story in LBN, but if it gets way off track into a discussion of Israel/Palestinian affairs, I'll be forced to move it down to the I/P Forum.

Let's all please keep the discussion narrowed to the specific topic at hand: Israel's attack on a Syrian base.

Thanks a lot!

Dookus
DU Moderator
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LivingInTheBubble Donating Member (360 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. I have thought the same thing sometimes.
It is borne of being frustrated at the seemingly unsolvable situation, the suffering and death.

Unfortunately nuking israel would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The best solution would be for the world to stop pandering to the US/Israel plan and forcibly place UN troops in israel to prevent them continuing with their occupation and oppression and to similarly protect them from any attack.

Israel wouldn't want that though, they want to expand.
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. delete
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 04:38 AM by E_Zapata
and even more self-moderating

Gesh, I am distressed. Forgive me all.
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gate of the sun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
191. I totally agree with you!
people do get all weird when it involves israel why should it be OK for them when it's not OK for us (not that I'm saying it should be)to attack another nation? Violence just begets more violence until people learn that.....we have learned nothing. For the most part we are acting world wide ( humans) in a pretty barbaric fashion. I am against this not because it's Israel but because of what they are doing.
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
20. Sharon's advisor, Gissin
"We will not tolerate continuation of "axis of terror".

CNN paraphrase of his statements.

Are they really using Bush's rhetoric again? FUCK.
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. He also mentioned Iran.
CNNI anchor asked if Iran was next on the chopping block, and the Israeli spokesman demured.

CNNI reporters are discussing Iran, however, in terms of its supposed financial support of the terror attacks.

Iran and Syria next up on Bush's agenda? Israel would be delighted to be a member of that coalition.

It was Condoleeezzza who said, circa Jan. 2001, that the Bush administration wouldn't be involving itself in issues of peace between Israel and the Palestinians, that the Bush administration couldn't force either side to make peace; they would have to want peace and therefore make peace on their own.

And there's been ever increasing violence on both sides of the border ever since, just what the Bushies were hoping for.

Syria and Iran, here we come.
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
37. Exactly... CNN reporting that the attack on Syria is NOT retaliation....
but rather the beginning of Israels war on terror. They're accusing Iran of supporting terrorism w/Syria and thus beginning their military campaign to eliminate terrorism in the middle east. Lovely, just lovely.

And if Bush* is as evil as I believe him to be, he'll soon suspend next years election, thus remaining emperor till the very end of us all.

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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Is this the October Surprise?
Something to change the headlines?

OMFG.

Not retaliation?

Oh boy. Bush/Cheney are certifiable.
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Now THAT'S a scary thought!!!
This shit taxes me to no end... thank goodness y'all are here to work through the scary stuff with me.

And thank you for self moderating above -- you are very cool to do that for the rest of us DUers. :hi:
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #43
50. Well, I am not thinking about Arnold or Howard Dean right now.....
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 05:10 AM by E_Zapata
Or Rush.

So, the headlines running around in my head have been changed through 'shock and awe'

Think about it: the last 2 weeks, Bush in 2004 is a fantasy. Can you see the PNAC concluding: let's just start a huge war -- huge. They will sacrifice anything and anyone to avoid a one-termer.


------thanks for the pat for the self-moderating. This issue is so impossible that we have to try to not fight amongst ourselves at all costs. Peace works that way. But, in truth, one of my critters woke me up and the minute I logged on, I saw this thread. Did you hear me shriek? (I literally gasped in horror, and my posts reflected that). :-)
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #40
79. You hit the jackpot
I'm sure W is greatly relieved. He needed a big distraction and Sharon is more than willing to help him out.

Months ago I posted that the next battle in the 'war on terra' would be Israels to fight. The US didn't have the resources or the troops ready for the next stage but that the Israeli's did. I think we are seeing what is just the beginning of the next major offensive in the PNAC's vision for a secure Israel and US domination of the world's oil resources. Besides all the fundies are praying for Armagedon, so they are probably pretty happy about all of this too. Hang on folks, we knew this was going to be a rough ride.
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #79
103. Totally agree DoYouEverWonder....
They are working hand in hand... US/Israel and this is/was the next step that had to happen in order for the 'axis of evil' war on terrorism to continue.

With all of Israel's boasting and all of the threats going around on both sides (Israel/Us), it was only a matter of time that Israel did what the US couldn't START (with US machines/ammo I might add).

I'm not shocked or awed. IMO, this is the tip of the iceberg that is starting to poke its head up from the murky waters of the US/Israel dirty dealings behind the scenes.
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et in Arcadia ego... Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #40
113. LOL: No, I am the October Surprise!
Just kidding, please don't delete your post E_Z. :toast:
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. OMG: this is what Bush Sr. went to Russia for
He needed to clear it with Putin (cause hitting Syria is hitting Russia in a lot of ways).

I just bet that was a top agenda item for bush sr. in Russia.

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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #37
53. Gissin also said that Israel doesn't recognize borders
when it comes to terrorism. Israel will preemptively strike another country which Israel perceives to be supporting terrorism any time it likes.

A very provocative statement...meant to force Syria's hand?

Can Germany then expect an attack any day now? How about Saudi Arabia?
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Israel has had a big influence on the Bushco tactics
regarding pre-emptive attacks, sanctioning of assassinations, etc.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #53
64. Question arises from this....
Under the "Bush* Doctrine", Doesn't this give Syria and Iran the right, nay, the obligation to pre-emptivly pre-empt the Isralis?

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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #64
112. They're at war
And have been for over 50 years.
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yellowsnark Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
138. Gissin
Are we (North Americans) supposed to trust a guy like this? He barked nonsense for ten minutes. Ra ra ra september 11th grrr rah axis of terror! Venemous nonsense.

With friends like these...

-jerry
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
164. Every Arab nation in the region has a legitimate reason to hate Israel
so why is it just an "axis of terror?" Since Israel has WMDs and makes no bones about it, it is fair and balanced approach for the Arab countries in the region to arm themselves. When the hell is this stuff going to stop? The biggest mistake in the world was to make Israel a nation and not give the Palestinians one too. Israel is truly evil and they have the US and its Congress all tied up in its clutches. It's sickening!
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #164
182. Really? How, precisely, do you figure?
Every Arab nation in the region has a legitimate reason to hate Israel

Please elaborate on this.

Since Israel has WMDs and makes no bones about it, it is fair and balanced approach for the Arab countries in the region to arm themselves.


Nations that have exhibited far less concern for human rights and far less stability than Israel ever has, with each one having much greater segments of their respective populations deeply fundamentalist in their religious outlook.

When the hell is this stuff going to stop?


It won't, and it's useless to try and blame one side or the other.

The biggest mistake in the world was to make Israel a nation and not give the Palestinians one too. Israel is truly evil and they have the US and its Congress all tied up in its clutches. It's sickening!


I find the treatment of 'Palestinians' by their supposed Arab brothers in neighboring countries to far more sickening.

Truly evil? We disagree.
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:23 AM
Response to Original message
24. Syria still hasn't responded
That may be the most frightening thing going on right now. I'd rather see a Syrian spokesman out there arguing. Them being quiet this long is bad news.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. There's nothing they can do.
They are totally outclassed militarily, and yelling about it is just empty rhetoric, and highlights their weakness. The smart play is to be patient and use this to gain diplomatic leverage later. Syria has no choice but to take the high road on this.

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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. They could respond fairly well militarily, however they know
they have the U.S. on their right flank.

They have other ways to hurt the Israelis and I'm afraid they will find out soon...
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. The US military at this time is spent, morale and strength-wise
More soldiers are being called up as I type, but if Syria were ever to retaliate, it would put the US in a bind as far as boots on the ground go. Our military is losing heart in these oily Bush escapades.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. You are right as well-- Syria cannot commit
because any offensive position is untenable.

IT will be interesting watching the news here in the ME tonight.

I just hope that Israeli intelligence is better than ours.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #36
57. Rumsfeld has been quietly moving troops around, taking them
from areas of Europe and Asia, placing them instead in "failed states" within Africa, the Middle East, etc. I think as long as they don't have to ask for more troops/money, they can apparently move them around like chess pieces at will...without further input from Congress.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #36
91. Then what? Will the armed forces start rebelling if another war starts?
God. There's a stone sitting in my stomach right now. I'm just...stunned.

We knew this was coming. I always hoped it wouldn't arrive.

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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #36
105. WOULD *co be able to call -in the draft w/o repercussions
say if Israel started an all out war and it had nothing (visible at any rate to the majority of Americans) to do with the US, but had everything to do with say, maintaining peace or assisting our friend/ ally in these troubled times?

Not sure exactly what THEIR (PNAC's) wording on this would be... :(
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. Thier military is smaller, and and about 2 1/2
generations behind Israel's technologically. Israel would wipe the floor with them if they tried to militarily resist. In fact, resistance is probably what Israel wants, which would provide a pretext for escalation -- if they even need one.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Another reason it's not going to happen.
If you are an inferior position, you play defense.

However, if the Israelis try to take out Arafat the whole West Bank goes up in flames...

what a bloody mess

:nuke:
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #44
93. Oh, there will be a resistance, all right.
Only it'll be with suicide bombers, not the military.

The Arab world must be enraged right about now. Fuck fuck fuck, this is baaaaaaaaaaad mojo.

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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #44
115. Not significantly.
Source: Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies, Tel Aviv University.
http://www.tau.ac.il/jcss/balance/presentation/index.ht...






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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #34
56. Out Of Curiousity
How could Syria respond militarily....
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #28
39. Or, get their ducks in a row for some 'assistance'
from other sympathetic nations.

Lessee: how is the WW4 alignment working:

Syria gets Russia, who has Saudi Arabia, and no doubt Iran, and don't forget China.

Israel gets USA, UK (and Oz by default)

Wonder who will win?
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IMayBeWrongBut Donating Member (470 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #39
49. Israel would get India too...nt
nt
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. No, India is more in the pockets of china and russia
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 05:20 AM by E_Zapata
India just gave china a thumbs up to do whatever it wanted to do in Tibet.

and India and Russia are together.

noooooooo, India goes with Syria. I think so.
(darn, I wish we had outsourced the American CEOs to India..)

This is muy complicado.

India and Pakistan won't be on the same side, yet both are alleged allies of the USA.

When push comes to shove, Pakistan sticks with the muslim set. Maybe India does go with Israel, which gives India some US cover in Kashmir.

Sorry, I am piecing these alliances together in my head. One thing is for sure: it's gonna get bloody. Maybe not this year, but very soon (when Putin rings the bell).

I guess I should worry more about where I will be. Canada? Mexico?
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. I Don't See An All Out Conflagration....
I think the low grade fever that has existed for nearly six decades will continue to fester.....

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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #54
83. Good point about outsourced jobs, tho
If this were to escalate into a world war, and Inja were on the other side, wouldn't we have to pull all our jobs back here? Couldn't let 'em run our internet stuff, or do our billing, etc.

Oh, no--it would be good for the US!
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #83
94. Dammit, you're right.
"War makes an economy grow."

FUCK! They're going to try to sell us on this, too?

Bush bites, all hell breaks loose.

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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #94
118. all out war? Our economy would SINK
If anything happened to India (like someone nuked them) or if India did a benedict arnold on us -- they have our IT infrastructure for banks, credit cards, computers, internet, even our friggin TAX RETURNS that they reconcile.

Is it safe to say that every major corp in the US has IT over there?

Imagine pulling the plug on all the IT support for all the major corps right at the same time on the same day.

Worse than a nuke hitting the USA.

This outsourcing is all about US national (in)security - for what it does to our economy here and also for the shear POWER of India to screw us and screw us royally (or simply someone hitting India with enough bombs to screw us).

There won't be time to "return jobs to the US".
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #83
165. It's too late anyway. All the communication is controlled by Israel thru
India. Just sit back and take a deep breath. Evil reigns and there is nothing that any of here can do about it. Remember, we don't really even have vote, as selection 2000 showed us.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #54
95. The weather is much better in Mexico.
Viva la Baja
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #49
71. India's only beef is with Pakistan
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 08:02 AM by Aidoneus
they actually have a very schizophrenic foreign policy, while ritually denouncing Pakistan as the source of all evil and blames them for cloudy sunrises (in Israel blame for that goes to Arafat), they've crafted good relations with pretty much all other Muslim and Arab states and have major economic ties that could not be severed on Israel's whim.
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termo Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
154. UK ???
Blair, Straw, Hoon... count few troopers. but no more.
:)
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
104. Can they pull in the UN on this?
:shrug: As you say, not many options. If they could someone ask the UN to interfere on their behalf and/or EU nations?
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
124. uh.... from what I've read
The Syrians have enough *real* chem/bio weapons to exterminate every single human being in Israel in hours.

Plus, they have a real military with hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and tanks, and airplanes etc...

Israel's military is stronger yes, but it will be a slaughter on both sides before a victory.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
88. alternate scenario
Maybe Syria isn't and won't escalate in this conflict because this is a way for them to gain points without making the Arab world blame them.

Remember when Sy Hersh reported in the New Yorker a month or so ago about Syria's attempts to make overtures to the Bush administration, to help with info on terrorists?

Maybe this, instead is the way this is being done. Syria "cooperates" by not escalating, the U.S. has Israel go into Syria by proxy, the Arab world gets to blame Israel, while Syria gets to be a victim and thus retain credibility, or rather, avoid blame for helping.

As someone else mentioned, Bush in Russia was a mission to let them know what was up.

Just speculation on my part, but sometimes I think people here have a much too black and white view of what goes on in the region. So many players are vying to keep power, expand power, limit others' power.

Who knows.

It would be a potentially dangerous strategy, but the Bushies aren't exactly known for restraint, neither are any of the other players in this scenario, when it comes to the exercise of power.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #88
96. Interesting analysis.
Worth mulling over, at least.

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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
29. CNN Financial is still showing CNN International
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 04:33 AM by khephra
If you don't get CNNI.

Us dumb Americans who only get CNN can't get the coverage. Instead they have to repeat a stupid CNN People show on Dave Mathews.

I FREEPING hate the newschannels on the weekend when major events happen. All we get is frigging repeats while news is happening.

OH well, CNNI just went to a sports show. Great...
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:39 AM
Response to Original message
38. Two interesting points: 1) What happens with the UNSC vote?
There's going to be a resolution condemning this; will the U.S. abstain, vote Yea, or veto? Who wants to take bets?

2) What will the candidates do? This is going to be interesting. Clark is going to toe the AIPAC line without a doubt -- it's the only thing I don't like about him. Dean, though, is in an interesting position. He might try to get by with a creative no-comment -- he's already stepped on a mine once with this issue. Kerry will probably wait for Dean, and then attack him for whatever he does. It's the smart way of accenting Dean's weakness.

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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. Interesting questions:
The US will support Israel right down the line. Americans by and far don't understand the dynamics (hell, who does?). So they can foist a bunch of crapola about why we support Israel in the UNSC vote.

I can't disagree on your assessment of candidates. Dean is a longshot. He really does support the AIPAC line, and he might come out strong. His biggest campaign worry now is Clark, so he wants to come across just as tough as Clark.

I think this issue will define the diff between Dean and Kerry like no other. Kerry will condemn pre-emptive actions, I think, no matter who it is.

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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #46
52. I'm not sure if the US will support Israel in this
I know they usually do, but sometimes you guys suprise the rest of the world. And this is a good chance to score bonus points if your Bush. I guess we'll see.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:58 AM
Response to Original message
47. Fuck trim your sails
There's a shit hurricane on the horizon..this is not good.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
48. This is like cheering for a winner in a car accident
Blame game,retaliation,tit for tat,they started it. For fuck sakes you have teens killing teens and the adults are the ones stirring the shit.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. I know eh
Such abuse of youth is disgusting.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
59. Deploying Israel to occupy Syria will conserve US forces for Iran

Although the Pentagon may still decide to use at least some IDF troops for Iran.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. I Don't Think The IDF Has The Forces To Occupy Entire
Muslim countries....
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. Before the roadmap to peace, Israel was saying: move Ps to Syria
I think. I can't remember. It was something truly ludicrous like making all the Palestinians move to Syria. Or was it Lebanon (same thing, basically).

Maybe that's the gist of it. Maybe Israel wants the entire gaza strip (farm lands, water, the whole kitnkaboodle).

So, force the Palestinians out of the gaza to leb/syria, and syria's hands will be full.

This is insane. I am going to bed. But I am marking this day and this event on my history calendar as a major turning point, and one that will be a reference point for some pretty insane warmongering by everyone.

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sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #62
123. Read , "Pity the Nation" by Robert Frisk
An amazing eye-opening book.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. They have compulsory service, they may need to lower the age a bit

Syria is not a big country, and there would be no IDF at all to speak of without US money.

The whole purpose of Israel's existence is to provide assets for military operations in the region in order to secure natural resources for the benefit of US financial interests.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #59
65. Are you advocating insanity?
The last thing anyone needs is a Syria-Israel conflict. It would immediate bring other Arab nations into the conflagration and no one, and I mean no one, will be able to stop this war.

May I remind you that Syria has a very tough army that was able to stop the IDF when they were trying to reach Damascus during the Yom Kippur war. May I also remind you that Syria does have WMDs and the missiles to deliver them.

And then there is Russia.

Bush better start acting like his Democratic predecessor before the superpowers are dragged into this conflict and we start seeing Russian missiles heading our way.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. I don't advocate any of the strategies outlined in the PNAC documents

I am only speculating about details of how they will utilize their Israeli assets in the implentation of them.

What I have advocated for quite some time is that the rest of the world form a coalition of the willing to disarm the US and hold free and open elections under the supervision of international monitors and transport all war criminals swiftly and humanely to the Hague to await a fair trial.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. This could easily escalate into a "Guns of August" scenario
that, as in 1914, could bring all the major powers into the conflict with dire consequences for all of us.

I am particularly disturbed about the PNAC and the ultra-Zionists in Israel playing the Armageddon card. Nothing good will come out of this, and everyone will lose.

The last thing we need is a second Yom Kippur war.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #66
81. You mean you're speculating as to how Israel will use their PNAC assets
Who is running whom?

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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #59
107. Ahhh Haaa Haaa Haaa! That's Hilarious!
I'm sure you are joking!

How is it possible that some people can actually think this way, though? Did they check out their brains back on 9/11?

Do they not see that it is not possible for an alien people to impose its will on a nation except through brute force? Do they not understand that it will take untold hundreds of thousands of troops to keep any kind of order and run a country like Syria, and then the place will be so thick with "enemy" soldiers that they become easy targets for guerrilla activities ("terrorism")? Do they not grasp the simple logic of the indefatiguable human thirst for freedom? Isn't this the very theoretical basis of their crusades?

Why don't people learn the lessons of history anymore? Good Christ! We've got chaos in Iraq, and they want to spread it elsewhere!
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #107
133. I think Israel has demonstrated that it excels at brute force

Aggressive depopulation strategies throughout the region will significantly reduce the number of troops necessary to secure natural resources and armaments.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #59
139. Your rhetoric keeps changing
Is Israel the puppet of the US? or is the US controlled by Israel?

Which is it? You seem to change on each event.
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termo Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #59
157. IDF already needs reserve to occupy palestine
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
61. CNN Is Showing The Pablo Escobar Story For The Fiftieth Time...
I liked his depiction in the movie "Blow" much better....
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
68. More war, more violence...
WILL IT EVER END????
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
69. Al Jazeera's coverage of this story
Israel just launched the second Yom Kippur war! This is no longer an I/P conflict, but a regional conflict with the very distinct possibility of getting Russia involved.



Israel attacks 'base' in Syria

Sunday 05 October 2003, 13:11 Makka Time, 10:11 GMT


Palestinian sources in Beirut said Israeli warplanes attacked a facility belonging to the Islamist resistance group near the capital Damascus, injuring one man.

However, the Islamic Jihad and Syrian sources denied the area housed a training base.

"Jihad has no combatants outside the Palestinian territories," said the group's Beirut-based spokesman Abu Imad Rifai in an interview with Aljazeera.

Syrian analyst Dr Imad Shuaibi said the attack was aimed at sparking chaos in the region and send a message to Damascus that Israel was willing to take military action.

It is believed to be the first Israeli attack deep into Syrian territory in two decades.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/AE871B47-A5D9-42...

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dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #69
80. Look What Russian Foreign Minister said today...
RUSSIA MAY USE FORCE TO PROTECT NATIONAL INTERESTS

REYKJAVIK, October 5, 2003. (RIA Novosti special correspondent Olga Semyonova) - Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov has named cases when Russia might use military force.

"Russia might use military force, even preventively, in a number of cases when a direct military threat to the Russian Federation is arousing. First of all, when this threat is visible, understandable and unavoidable," he said, when answering questions of journalists who accompany him in his trip to North and South America (Canada and Brazil) during a stop in Reykjavik, Iceland.

Secondly, "force may be used if Russia's access to vitally important world regions, including regions economically or financially important for the country, is being restricted," the minister continued.

"The third case is the CIS," he emphasized. "If the CIS is experiencing a complicated and unstable situation /but so far there have been no such signs/ or there is a direct threat to our fellow countrymen /by them Ivanov means Russian-speaking population, that is, Russians who after the USSR breakup remained outside Russia/ or Russian citizens, and all measures, including political, economic and international sanctions, have been of no avail, then we will hypothetically consider a possibility of preventive use of force," Ivanov concluded.

http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id=160&msg_id=3499...

00000000

Russia lobs a signal, at the same time oddly enough.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
72. BBC breaking: Syria to complain to United Nations
On BBC crawler now: Syrian official says Damascus will complain to UN about the Israeli attack.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. Don't worry, Israel...
Expect a US veto of any real security council action.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. War criminals protect one another
so it should not come as a surprise that just as Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito loved one another, that there is now a love fest between Bush, Blair, and Sharon.

However, as in 1939 there are other players that will not be happy to sit on the sidelines and let the aggressor nations have a blank check for imperialist expansionism. Russia and France may find themselves in the role of Churchill and Roosevelt and form an alliance to contain and challenge the Bush-Blair-Sharon axis of evil.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #78
84. Putin is hardly innocent...
His war crimes in Chechnya make him as bad as the rest. And Chirac is no angel.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #84
92. All of that is true, but it is American taxpayers' money that grease
Israel's war machine and that makes us complicit in her crimes against humanity.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #92
102. True...
my hatred of Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld tops my hatred for almost anyone else.
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Loyal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #102
188. I agree
nt
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #78
106. don't expect much help from those hypocrites..
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 09:35 AM by Aidoneus
Russia & France are also imperialist powers in their own right, and can't be relied on to fall on the side of the global popular interest with the best of intentions. International economic class interests bound all of the major states together in a sort of criminal alliance, that one faction gets a bit out of line is not something they'll stick their necks out on.. Perhaps Russia has an independent interest and is able to act on it within the CIS, but Putin is not really a figure I would wish to have on the same "side", even if the Russian government does give token opposition to some of "Team W's" idiocy when it harms their own interests.
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #72
77. Syria is acting reasonably, willing to follow an international rule of law
Unlike the US and Israel, who bomb preemptively any country they perceive to be a threat, using falsified evidence to make their case to the public.

The bombing took place ten miles outside the Syrian capital of Damascus. We're still waiting for a response from the Bushies, although Germany and England have denounced Israel's preemptive strike against Syria. The US had better do likewise. How would Bush like it if Syria were to preemptively attack Vienna, VA?

The US and Israel are outing themselves as the terrorist countries that they are.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
73. technical question that I cannot find advertised
(repasted from another thread for any answer)

What is the specific status of Israel's army? By that, I mean percentage tied up in the occupied Palestinian territories (OPT), percentage required for general/basic defense (the real kind of defense within their actual borders, not the "defense" of invading other people), and what they actually have that could be used in any invasion should events arrange themselves that way.

I don't think they're in any position to deliberately escalate this to the level the doom'n'gloomers in this thread suggest (or to what their own government propagandists would like), but I'm willing to be corrected. It was wisely suggested here not too long ago that such is perhaps one other reason for the wall:--freeing up the army units based in the OPT, perhaps for use elsewhere.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. Does this answer your question?
Foreign Report can reveal that the Israeli government is planning an onslaught on the Gaza Strip. This is because, our informant said, its former policy of containing Palestinian violence, including the murder of the Hamas leadership, has failed.

The idea is to launch an intervention in October, once a series of Jewish holidays have finished.

Since the beginning of the intifada, one of the cornerstones of Israeli military policy has been to kill the leaders of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah-Tanzim. The Israelis believe that these groups are behind Palestinian suicide attacks. In almost three years, more than 100 leading Palestinian militants have been killed by the Israelis.

The Israelis have a reply to the critics of their policy. They claim that the killings have prevented an even greater bloodbath. The Palestinians, on the other hand, claim that the 'assassinations' have only embittered young Palestinians and led to more suicide bombs. ..
The Israelis are well aware of the difficulties of such an operation. Gaza is the most densely populated place on earth. The Israelis assume they will face serious resistance and many casualties....

http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/ne...

(I guess they decided not to wait until after the holidays?)
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #76
82. that's a bit different though..
Gaza is a tightly packed prison--nobody but the Israeli occupation forces comes or goes from there, shooting people there is just killing people because it's easy, makes the rabid ultranationalist base happy, and doesn't have much at all to do with why human-bombs leave the West Bank (which is in the process of being transformed into a larger prison in itself).

As yet I can't find any real answer to my question about whether they actually can do anything more than a provocation followed by barking vague threats (as would be expected, it seems that such details are not exactly advertised deliberately), as in another sustained conventional war which would be no limited engagement if it's ramped up. I don't think the "SKY IS FALLING!" people here have it right and that there's even the real capability for an escalation..
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. Don't you think this buildup of forces
supposedly to invade the Gaza Strip wasn't just a cover for the beginning of a bigger operation that would include other enemies (ie Syria and Iran)?

It was just a couple of weeks ago that Israel was talking about a pre-emptive strike again Iran's nuke plant. I think we are see what is just the beginning of what until now was a secret but major planned offensive from the Israeli's (and the US).

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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #86
100. actually, no I don't
Syria and Iran have large armies, even a surprise attack would need a much larger reserve call-up than assaults on the occupied Palestinian territories have required so far, and their economy--even with the gifts from their kind Big Brother--cannot sustain that, to say nothing of being able to conceal such a buildup.

If they're going to attack Gaza, it'll be just something to appease the nationalist fanbase who really preferred the 10-1 killrate of the previous Intifada. Attacking Gaza wouldn't do anything to make their "terrorism" situation any better--no humanbombs inside the "Green Line" have entered through Gaza and it's just a place where the army alone goes in and out--, but it'll make Sharon's electoral base happy. It could be done with the forces they have at hand, because the captive targets can't actually sufficiently defend themselves from it. A sustained war against a neighboring country is something else altogether and probably not within their capabilities right now. Maybe after more of the so-called "security wall" is built.

The talk about strike on the nuke plant is probably just that:--talk. With respect to the nuclear power program in general, the Israelis again don't really have the ability to do enough about it, and in place of that just barked empty threats to mask that. If there was any other intent to it, perhaps it was to "encourage" Big Brother to do something about it instead (who also can't really do much about it except bark threats or try diplomatic pressure).

I really doubt that this is the apocalypse, and is just tough talk to disguise actual inability to do anything about it.. assuming rationality is at work, anyway.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #100
109. How many troops
does Israel have on active duty? I've heard that their army is very large, at least 3 active duty divisions?


However, I doubt if Israel was getting ready to launch a major offensive they would be publishing troop levels and placement? We don't know what is going on but the hints that have been dropped in the press, indict that Israel has been getting ready to take this whole thing up a level and to expand their war. I am certain that this is all being done in concert with the Neocons in the US and that this morning was just the first shot across the bow, so to speak. We'll soon see, but on this one I would love to be wrong.
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Flying_Pig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
89. PNAC/Likud Plan, Part Two .......
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 09:10 AM by Flying_Pig
:grr:

I have no doubt that PNAC's White House operatives (Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith, Abrams, Bolton, Libby, Perle, et al) were fully apprised of Israel's actions, ...before the fact.

It is also quite obvious, that PNAC's ties (Perle, Wolfowitz, Libby, and Feith, have all worked for Israel) to Israel's Sharon, and his fascist Likud government, was the primary motivation behind PNAC's call for wars across the Middle East, with control of oil resources being the secondary motivation (and the one to convince the U.S. into involvement).

Likud's American ally, PNAC, has been joined by U.S. based organizations like AIPAC, JINSA, and the JDL, in the urging of invasions of countries throughout the ME. Both congressional Republicans, and Democrats, have embraced these goals and organizations. In doing so, they are directly supporting PNAC's goals for world domination, and world war.

A couple of months ago, PNAC'er James Woolsey, a former CIA Director, stated that World War IV was upon us (he thought WWIII was the Cold War). As he helped outline PNAC's goals, he was certainly in a position to know that in fact, PNAC, in consort their friends Sharon/Likud, would be expanding (WWIV started with U.S. invasions of Afghanistan, and then Iraq) their plans for WWIV with attacks on Syria and Iraq.

All of this dovetails nicely, with Bush's need to change the country's focus from his scandals and lies, to still more bloodshed and war. Israel is doing it's part, no doubt given the "OK" by PNAC/BFEE, and moving ahead in an offensive, rather than defensive manner.

There will be no peace in the ME, nor the rest of the world, as long as PNAC, and their Likud-allied principals, are allowed to dominate our government here in the U.S., and as long as we allow the Israeli government to influence our nation vis-a-vis their vassals and allies in PNAC/AIPAC/JINSA/JDL, and, their friends in the media.

Allowing an outside nation such control and influence of our foreign and military policy, is a violation of our Constitution, and amounts to treason by those who promote and allow it.
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
90. Lao Tzu would say this is bad logic
Do not coerce the world with weapons.
These things are apt to backfire.
Israel isolates itself.
Increases expenditures.
Ruins trade and shekels.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
97. Israel is showing their true colors.
They will go to the ends of the Earth to irradicate the Palestinians.

This certainly sounds like the past with exchanged roles.

I don't take sides in this issue,but the Israelis are
responsible for their own PR. And it doesn't look good.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #97
132. Lame
Israel has no intention of erradicating the Palestinians. Take a look at the numbers who are killed in this conflict. Though unacceptable, they are actually quite low and the Palestinian population continues to grow.
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slater71 Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
98. Link
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
99. Anyone else notice
that W stayed in DC this weekend. When was the last time he did that?

Get ready for part 2 of the Neocons wetdream of Middle East domination.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
101. Some information on military balance in ME:
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 09:16 AM by bemildred
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #101
108. This is incredible! Syria exactly matches Israel in all categories.
(Except nukes, of course.)

What is Ariel thinking? I have the impression that even Janes, a bastion of neutrality, is ridiculing the Sharonist's plans.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #108
110. Who ever thought that Israel
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 09:50 AM by DoYouEverWonder
could win a war in seven days? I guess he wants to see if he can beat his old record and do it in five?

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Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
111. This is to help Bush
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 10:02 AM by Onlooker
Why would Sharon risk escalating tensions in the Middle East? Maybe to help Bush. If Syria responds and the US gets involved, it will give Americans the chance to rally around the President. Bush will kill, steal, lie, cheat, and he's really good at those things.
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villageidiot Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
114. Bush Doctrine
"Syria has been warned more than once by the United States that it should close all the facilities of the Islamic Jihad," Israeli government spokesman Avi Pazner said. "Apparently it has not done so. And it is our policy after what happened yesterday to go after Islamic Jihad wherever they are."

and

"The army has started operating against those behind the attack, those who support (terror) and those who use the strategy of terror in order to harm citizens of Israel," the army statement said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/05/world/main576...





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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
116. CNN BREAKING: WH urges restraint to all countries involved
Breaking now...

So now they want restraint... hmmm....
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #116
126. The Syrians have *real* WMDs
No need to upset an enemy that could actually, ya know, hurt you...
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
117. Syria: Israel attacked civilian area
:shrug:

Syria: Israel attacked civilian area
Sunday 05 October 2003, 17:50 Makka Time, 14:50 GMT

Syria has said Israeli forces attacked a civilian area near Damascus in a "grave escalation" of tensions in the Middle East.

Damascus is capable of deterring Israel but will practice restraint, Syria's Foreign Minister Faruq al- Shara said in a letter to the United Nations on Sunday.

The Israelis had earlier claimed that it attacked an Islamic Jihad and Hamas training base in the Ain al- Sahab area, about 20km northwest of Damascus.

It did not say whether air or ground forces carried out the strike, but an unnamed security source was quoted as saying that it was an air attack early on Sunday.

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/AE871B47-A5D9-42...
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #117
149. BBC reported Syria claimed target was "refugee camp"
Heard on PRI as I was driving home at 5am this morning.
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fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
119. Russia=Syria/Iran, Poppy=money.
This might be interesting to watch in view of the recent mouth to ear conversations between Poppy/Putin. Israel has long been a thorn up the world communities' butt. Bribery, coersion, brutality and media control is all that has propped up this regime in the ME for years. The greenlight must have been given for this operation but wasn't Hussein given a State Department greenlight to invade Kuwait? This thing has to end someday, pray for peace.
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
122. They will probably attack Iran next
Maybe Bushehr nuclear complex.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
125. WHAT WAS THE IMMEDIATE SYRIAN MILITARY RESPONSE?
I have a couple of questions:

1) Was the Israeli attack carried out by airplanes?

2) Did the Syrians scramble any of their planes?

3) Did the Syrians fire any SAMs or other anti-aircraft armements?
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Air attack; no Syrian retaliation.
Don't know about plane scrambling. Don't know about anti-aircraft. However, since this was not a Syrian military facility, and in a remote, civilian area, it's unlikely that either (2) or (3) occurred.

Syria's response thus far has been to appeal to the UN.

The al Jazeera piece is fairly informative on this.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. the reason I ask
is because of Israeli warplanes entering Syrian airspace on a b-line to Damascus.

Even if the Israelis were *just* attacking a terrorist camp, it should have alarmed the Syrians enough because they had no idea what the intention of the Israelis was.

The planes could have been on their way to nuke Damascus for all the Syrians knew, and I for one am actually surprised that there was aparently no response or retaliaition.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #128
134. Syrian air force
The Syrian air force has not fared well against Israel in the past.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #128
136. the Israelis do that from time to time
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 01:26 PM by Aidoneus
They continue to fly warplanes over Syrian & Lebanese airspace as a display of force. On occasion Hizbullah fires at the invaders (considering Israel's history there, I don't blame them a bit), and they're called "terrorists" for it.

If I remember right, within the last couple months the Israelis flew jets up to Assad's home in Latakia (NW Syria on the Mediterranean) and broke the sound barrier as a display, threats which they routinely carry out over Lebanon with impunity. By now, Syria & Lebanon are probably aware of the nature of these provocations and don't take the bait anymore. That may change after this one since it actually had substance("bomb") to it.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #136
142. gotcha
Thanks for the info!
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #136
151. Not even vaguely true
The Hizbollah terrorists don't use the rockets for anti-aircraft, they use them to terrorize Israeli citizens on the ground.

As for Syria and Lebanon, why bother to list them separately. They are one nation and its conquered territory.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #151
155. oh
If that was the case, why is it that they only fire the AAA at IAF jets? They cannot break the laws of physics, no matter how much that is held against them. If Israeli conspiracy theorists are to be believed, they have thousands and thousands of rockets to fire at Israel, plus Saddam's bio/chem arsenal, yet they choose anti-air mortars occasionally fired at jets to "terrorize" Israel? So flying jets deep into a neighbors territory to try and make that scary "BOOM" noise (breaking the sound barrier) over their cities isn't any problem, but firing at those hostile threats is.. funny logic, that.

As for your concluding claim, there are those that disagree. The people who make maps, for example:--

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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #155
167. What goes up
Comes down, typically aimed at Israeli border settlements, not aircraft.

Oh wow, separate borders. But mapmakers bow to marketing. Syria controls both, much like the equally slimey dictators in China control Tibet.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #125
137. It appears (from Haaretz) the planes went in via Lebanon
flying NOE. Syrians have said they will not respond
militarily.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
131. If Jed Bartlett did this
you would all apllaud it.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #131
140. If Jed Bartlett did this
it would be a TV show.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. Thats what it is to us anyway
unless you have freinds or family in the area.

This was going on during the cold war and it didn't escalate then what makes you think it would escalate when there is only one superpower?

Israel has attacked Syrian bases before, its just that those bases were in Lebanon.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #141
144. I don't think I'm alone in thinking
the world is less stable with one rogue hyperpower than it was with two evenly balanced and reasonable responsible superpowers.

This is the first time in, I believe, 20 years Israel has attacked Syria, and it struck very close to Damascus. You don't think this provocative application of the Bush doctrine adds a dangerous new wrinkle?

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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #144
175. You agree with Robert Novak
and John Sununu that the world was safer under the threat of nuclear obliteration.

The world was safer when Bill Clinton was in charge of the only Super Power than it was when Nixon and Brezhnev ran their respective nations.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
143. 14 miles NW of Damascus



Though the timimg seems pretty fishy to me

Sundays strike came a day before the 30th anniversary of the joint Syrian-Egyptian attack known in Israel as the Yom Kippur War named after the holiest day in the Jewish calendar which begins at sundown Sunday. It was believed to be the first Israeli operation on Syrian soil since that war, though in 1985 Israeli warplanes flying over Lebanon pursued Syrian fighters into Syrian airspace and shot them down.
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Unknown Known Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
146. Yes, the timing of this is interesting!
Low poll numbers, Wilson affair, bad economy, CA recall, etc. Can you say 9/11?

The neocon plans were stifled after Iraq because they were exposed. Now Sharon will help them to carry out their plans.

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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #146
148. Interesting of the human shields forming against Arafat's
seeminlgy impending assassination...many from Israel are forming as human shields to help protect him as aircraft fly over his compound.

Why on earth would anyone think escalation is imminent? :think:
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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
150. This is not going to be a popular viewpoint here
But here it goes. Let's do a hypothetical. Let's assume that (for the sake of arguement ONLY) Lakota were leaving the reservation, strapping bombs to themselves, walking into the malls and blowing others and themselves to bits, and they did this on average once a week. I mean, if anyone has a beef, a legitimate beef, with this country it's the indiginous peoples of this continent. Would your point of view change? I personally would want the authorities to do something about it. Ordinary crime I can handle,but mass murder on a regular basis is something I am unwilling to put up with. I support Israel. There, I said it. I can't help it. The people of Judaism have survived attempted genocide of their race and religion. They have a right to exist, and beyond that, they have the right to protect their citizens and even retaliate when terrorists target civilians. The goal of Hamas is to wipe out the State of Israel. This is unacceptable to me. We would not accept this activity, why should we expect the Israelis to accept it? I ask you to think about my post before you respond, that is, if any cares to respond.
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Nottingham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. Well How does Bombing Syria stop a Suicide Bomber?
Maybe you can answer that one? No this is Israel wanting escalation
and its a Preliminary step to Bombing Iran's nuclear reactor! which is coming next. ....There is a WWIII going on but people just haven't made the Declaration yet thats why the mad rush for Nukes!

and Israel is one BIG TARGET right now!

:bounce: and I think Bush likes it like that!
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #152
177. The same way
that bombing Afghanistan disrupted Al Queda. Its where the base of opereations are.

Syria has been fighting a proxy war for years from Lebanon and the West Bank.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #150
153. Then can you go one step further
And imagine you are a Lakota living on a reservation (the most crowded one on earth) and every week the government sends in tanks and bulldozers and smashes your houses and then they send in helicopters and jets and launching missiles and killing innocent men, women and children everytime they want to retaliate for you retaliating for them retaliating.....

Then to add insult to injury they put a fence around your reservation cutting through your land where your olive trees stood so they can build another settlement on the land that was once yours?

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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #153
156. Ah...
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 04:32 PM by Scairp
But would they do that if suicide bombers were not coming out of these territories? I say no. I believe that if the suicide bombings stopped then Israel would pull out of the Palestinian territories. And no one has any proof to the contrary as the bombings have yet to stop. I believe that Israel has the right to root out training camps that produce these suicide bombers and destroy them. That's what this raid was about today. Look, I know it's a bad situation all around, but if Arafat cannot hold Hamas in check then the Israelis must do it. I can bet if any one of you was an Israeli citizen living with this threat day in and day out your attitude would be dramatically different. They're sick of being blown up. What would you have them do?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #156
158. But what came first
The oppression or the bombs?

This is a vicious cycle that will only be broken when both sides finally get sick of killing each other and make up their minds that there's got to be a better way, until then they will just keep killing each other. This is one of those situations where at this point no one is right and no one is wrong, it's just a no win situation for everybody.

BTW: Letting the Palastinians have their own country would be a good place to start.
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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #158
160. What came first?
Why, the complete resistance to the idea of a Jewish state by most other Islamic and Arab countries in the region. I believe that peace could have been achieved by now. Clinton tried, and nearly succeeded, right up until the last days of his term, to negotiate, not just a truce, but an actual plan to form the Country of Palestine. Arafat was getting almost everything he wanted from Barak, when he suddenly broke off the negotiations and left. You cannot put all the blame on the Israelis. There have been sincere efforts in the recent past to put an end to this conflict, and the terrorists keep subverting the process. You do understand that when these Palestinian bombers carry out this activity, they are also killing fellow Muslims? There are and have been, many Israeli Arabs living amongst the Jewish population since the inception of the State of Israel. I can't help feeling this way, and this is really the only issue in which I split from my generally liberal beliefs. I know there is wrong on both sides, but with the goal of the terrorists who carry out these bombings, suicide and otherwise, being the destruction of Israel, I must side with the Israelis. Have you all forgotten the Holocaust? I say we need to remember now more than ever, most especially when discussing Israel.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #160
170. But Richard Perle told Barak
to walk away first. It seems that there were members of Likud/Neocon movement who did their best to derail the peace process in order to prevent any agreement.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,34...

Julian Borger in Washington
Thursday July 13, 2000
The Guardian

Anger at peace talks 'meddling'

Political scandal in US as Bush advisers tell Israelis to be ready to walk out of Camp David negotiations

The Middle East peace talks at Camp David became the subject of a political scandal in the US last night when reports emerged that one of George W Bush's foreign policy advisers had warned the Israeli delegation to be prepared to walk out of negotiations.

Richard Perle, a veteran cold war warrior and former assistant secretary of state, urged the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak, not to agree to any settlement which left the future status of Jerusalem unresolved, according to the New York Post website.

The website quoted a message received by Mr Barak yesterday from two of his emissaries, Yoram Ben-Ze'ev and Yossi Alpher. The two men said Mr Perle "asked us to send a clear message" to Mr Barak that it would be a "catastrophe" if the Jerusalem question was not dealt with, and urged him "to walk away" from the Camp David negotiations if faced with that outcome.

more...



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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #153
179. What you are forgetting
is:
1) Jews are also indigenous to the area
2) the occupation and what not came AFTER terror attacks. They did not cause them but were in response to them.

Whether it is right or wrong shouldn't change actual history.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #179
180. We can go round and round
but the Palastinians are indigenous to the area also. And didn't they get kick out of their homes after the UN (and Britian) decide to 'create' the State of Israel. As a matter of fact before the UN resolution Israel had only been a state for 70 out of over 5000 years of their history. I do remember reading in the Bible about a land called Palastine, can you tell me were it went?
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kysrsoze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #180
195. This is almost what really happened....
Actually, Palestinians who chose to stay in their homes when the Israelis came through were shot and killed - whether armed or not. Britain and the UN turned their backs while it happened.

Those of you who think the Israeli government is in the right, both historically and now, had better read up a bit more. Start with "Drinking the Sea at Gaza," which was written by an award-winning Israeli Haaretz journalist.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #150
159. Well if we held the Lakota in what amounts to concentration camps....
then your analogy MIGHT be close to an acceptable comparison.

I just don't understand why the victims of concentration camps think that putting people in concentration camps is a way to gain peace. It doesn't make sense to me.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #150
166. For the same reason that when McVeigh bombed Oklahoma
the military didn't go around and bomb entire towns known to have large populations of skin-heads.

Those strapping bombs to themselves are like an "activist group" of fundies...Palestinians, contrary to the stereotypes, are not ALL terrorists!

:shrug:

DUH!



The population of Palestine consists of many peace-loving Muslim (and other faiths) people who want to make a living and feed and care for their families. PEOPLE, EVERYWHERE, ARE PEOPLE!!

Punishing an entire country for the behavior of a few fundamentalist members is insane.

Is this the kind of mentality we want to support?? Is this the kind of world we want to live in? No! But trying NOT to figure out mature solutions seems to be the new fad in this not-so-brave new world.

Leaders have become extremely (mentally) lazy, as have the people who vote for them. There needs to be a new world paradigm.

:kick:
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shepard Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. People are people
How would you go about resolving this conflict?If we are to find fault with one side, shouldn't we be able to come up with an answer.We cannot keep harping without a solution,for that is an easy thing to do.You are right people are people,both in Israel and Palestine.Ahe'ee Nehemah!
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
169. They blew up children again
And boo hoo's here don't understand it when Israel strikes back!
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #169
172. Does that mean
that the Israeli's don't kill Palastinian children, or that when they do it's okay? I'm not trying to say that I approve of young teenage girls straping bombs to their bodies and blowing people up but I don't approve of the IDF killing innocent people either.


Yahoo News


Israel Troops Kill Gaza Youth After Bush UN Speech
Wed Sep 24, 4:00 AM E

AZA (Reuters) - Israeli troops killed a Palestinian youth in a raid in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, hours after President Bush singled out Yasser Arafat's leadership for condemnation at the United Nations.

Witnesses said the unarmed 15-year-old was killed by a tank shell. Israeli forces also wounded 11 people, including gunmen who fired on soldiers who entered the Rafah refugee camp in the latest violence to batter a stalled U.S.-backed peace plan.

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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #169
174. How about this ...
let's put the leaders of Israel in Palestine and put the leaders of Palestine in Israel INCLUDING family members and see what happens when shoe is on other foot ahh k?

This rhetoric is madness...STOP THE KILLINGS and quit apologizing and/or blaming either side!!! JUST STOP THE FRIGGING MADNESS!!!

WAKE UP...become mature! FACEUP, SHUDDUP, LOVEUP, PEACEUP! Just rename the whole damned area where Palestine and Israel now stand and quit segregating them and live and let live! Move in the UN until they decide they can all live together and appoint a cabinet of COMBINED members!!

We do it here in US all day every day when peeps aren't racist!

IF this isn't agreeable to anyone then just take the leaders of BOTH countries and lock them in a padded white cell with food/water/sleep, etc. until they reach an agreement.... NO TELEPHONES..NO TV...NO NEWS and NO visits from anyone!
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atlien Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
181. What if Syria had attacked Israel in the same manner?
Stop and think about what Bush and gang, and the entire west would be saying if it were the Syrian gov't that had attacked Israel. Regardless of Syria's claim.
IT WOULD NOT MATTER.

If it had been Syria, right now, the US would be at the UN drawing up a resolution to authorize "Coalition" military force to be used against Syria. This is the double standard that is crystal clear to the rest of the planet but that Americans have been brainwashed into thinking it to be some bizarro equality or fairness. This is why the Arabs hate the US. They don't as King George likes to offer up, "hate freedom" and "free societies". I can hardly write that it's so stupid. But all of you avid Contains No News network watchers, slow down and think about what the reports would sound like right now if the Syrian gov't had attacked ANYTHING inside the Israeli border. Think about it for a sec and then decide how fair any of US policy towards the Mid East really is.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #181
183. I couldn't agree more, atlien.
And welcome. I like the way you think. :hi:
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #181
186. Then they'd be in a world of hurt by now. Just like the last time.
They've tried it three times in the past, and got severely burned each time. A fourth, in one counts their conflict in Lebanon as well.

Israel, to my knowledge, doesn't support, tolerate or have relations with groups inside Israel who actively carry out suicide and terror operations with Syria.

If it had been Syria, right now, the US would be at the UN drawing up a resolution to authorize "Coalition" military force to be used against Syria.


That seems highly unrealistic, as it would be a conflict between two sovereign states, and the spin it would take to force it into an action in the 'war on terror' would be practically impossible with the pressure on the administration already there because of the bungling in Iraq that is becoming clearer with every passing day.
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convince_me Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #181
187. yes, please do stop and think
to be a correct analogy, Israel would to have just sent a Jewish terrorist woman strapped with bombs killing Syrian families lunching on a sunny weekend afternoon.

On some of the reasons "why Arabs hate us" (and I certainly wouldn't say "all" do... please check out the ex-pat community in MI) I suggest a good place to research is reading the works of the Islamists themselves; ie the Hamas Charter, the fatwa issued against "Jews and Crusaders."

Can someone tell me what has caused the proud tradition of the Democratic Party to support human and civil rights to apologize for a movement (fundamentalist Islam) that would, given the chance, bring the same terror again to the US that Israel goes through on a daily basis, and a movement that rejects democracy, rule of law, freedom of religion, murders gays, murders female family members for "honor"?

:think:
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #187
189. The Israelis don't need suicide bombers
They have missiles fired from helicopters, firing at Palestinian "families lunching on a sunny weekend afternoon."

I don't think the Dems are apologizing for the Palestinian suicide bombers. On the contrary, most Dems are apalled by the practice. The thing is, we're trying to point out that the Likudniks are just as bad, if not worse, and they have a military, which can inflict much more harm than suicide bombers.

The Palestinians in the occupied territories are living in what amounts to be nothing more than glorified concentration camps. If the occupation of Palestine isn't a human rights abuse, I don't know what is...
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
192. So why would someone so young and beautiful
want to be a suicide bomber? Did she decide she hated Israelis before or after they killed her 15 year old brother?


Bomber was to be a lawyer


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/10/05/1065292475342...

October 6, 2003

Ramallah: Islamic Jihad has claimed responsibility for the suicide bombing in Haifa that killed 19, naming the bomber as Hanadi Jaradat, a lawyer from the West Bank town of Jenin.
do such a thing?


The militant group said the attack was in retaliation for the deaths of several of its leaders in Israeli raids.

<snip>

She walked up to a beachfront restaurant in the northern city of Haifa filled with Israeli Arabs and Jews around 2pm, forcing her way inside by shooting the security guard on duty at the entrance. This was the first time a bomber had shot dead a guard.

<snip>

"The only thing that would push her to do that would be to avenge my brother's death," her brother, Thaher, 15, said. On June 12, Israeli troops who had come to arrest her cousin Salah, an Islamic Jihad militant, killed him and her brother Fadi.



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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #192
194. It's an eye-for-an-eye and a tooth-for-a-tooth.
Pretty soon everyone on both sides is blind and toothless.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
196. Please continue any discussion in Israeli/Palestinian Affairs - locking.
The discussion now taking place in this thread would be far better served in the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs Forum where there's a parallel discussion already underway in the the thread entitled "Israel attacks Islamic Jihad base in Syria."

I'm locking this thread. Interested DUers are welcome to continue discussing this in the referenced thread.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding,
TahitiNut
DU Moderator
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