Site Bars Black Box Voting Head

[nodictators]

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,65928,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_5

Site Bars Black Box Voting Head

12:30 PM Dec. 06, 2004 PT
Democratic Underground, a political discussion site that has been a popular forum for debate on the reliability of computerized voting machines, has barred one of its most prominent and outspoken contributors on the topic from further posting.

In a written statement, site administrators said Friday that they barred Bev Harris, founder of Black Box Voting, because her postings on the site "have made positive discussion of verified voting increasingly difficult."

Democratic Underground said Harris' postings have been belligerent at times to other members of the forum and that she used the website to threaten its operators with lawsuits.

"We no longer believe that it is productive to allow her to use DU as a platform to promote herself while simultaneously trashing us, our moderators and others who have been previously supportive of her cause," site administrators wrote in the statement.

[glitch]

1. Wired thinks this is interesting enough to write about? Interesting. nt

[Born Free]

21. I find it interesting

Something doesn't seem right about it, just a gut feeling

[Just Me]

141. Those who will not follow the rules 'cause they wanna' make the rules

have no tolerance for democracy. All dictators are the same: they want free reign and reject all rules of decency and/or law.

I'll bet this individual is both an awful winner and a brutal loser.

All I can say is: pull up your bootstraps and join humanity,...you ain't so special,...you are merely a member of the human race. Can't handle it? Go hang yourself instead of taking your misery out on and destroying the rest of us.

Without us, sweetheart,...you are meaningless.

Grow up,...get a life.

[w4rma]

24. The Slashdot and Wired folks have been following the vote fraud stuff.

Remember that they are computer geeks and the large majority of them, after reading just a little bit about what is going on, see major problems with the security.

Just look up any discussion (and there have been quite a few) about the DREs on Slashdot for confirmation of this.

[glitch]

42. Actually I am a computer geek who has seen major problems with security

for years. I already read Wired and Slashdot so I know they are onto the issue.
I still think it's interesting that Wired chose to write about DU banning Bev. It's just seems more gossipy than technical, so it interests me.
Don't you think so?

[Kelvin Mace]

92. A lot of the stories on

Wired News feature Bev, so it is relevant that she gets banned by a 60,000 member site.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Mr_Spock]

47. You used a double "interesting". Fascinating.

I'd comment on Bev but I don't know her.

[glitch]

52. ;) nt

[meisje]

74. "Amazing"

that's all

[Pachamama]

132. Wow...most people I tell sbout DU have never heard of it...but Wired knows

about us now? I guess now we will see a surge in readership and Newbies?

[Worst Username Ever]

228. We were in Time magazine last week or the week before, too.

[NVMojo]

167. sure it is interesting to the outside eye who thinks Dems and those

working on voter fraud on behalf of the losing presidential candidate should not be getting along. Besides, I get crap all the time from repugs who talk about how the Dems do nothing but rip each other apart and therefore can't formulate a strategic battle plan against the Bush cartel and the repug squadron.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. We made Wired News...

...wish it were for something a bit more positive.:(

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

73. Actually, when reading the whole piece, I left feeling that the writer

pretty much tried to justify DU's actions by comparing them with what Olberman's staff said.

[benburch]

3. Hardy LBN

This like the 5th time she's been banned, and this action happened a week ago.

[Walt Starr]

4. The story follows the letter of the rules regarding LBN

:shrug:

Go figure.

Edited to add: But the subject header doesn't

[brainshrub]

5. I didn't know about this.

I knew their was some problems, but I didn't know she had been banned.

Pity.

[benburch]

22. The pity is that I expected so much more from Bev Harris

She was capable of making a proper run with the information she had, and she instead starts fights in her own camp.

[benburch]

23. And, BTW, I sent her a LOT of money. nt

[Dem2theMax]

161. Get this. I sent her a check a month ago.

It hasn't been cashed yet. I checked with the bank today.
Yet BBV has still been asking for money. Wonder what gives?

[Kelvin Mace]

165. You are about the third person

who has complained about that.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Mandate My Ass]

207. Me too

Mine hasn't been cashed and it has been at least a month...:shrug:

[ooglymoogly]

54. i seem to recall a few weeks ago bev was threatening a few

du'rs trying to make sense of her findings

[benburch]

68. Indeed...

I remember the same thing.

[Kelvin Mace]

93. This is her second time

The banning happened Friday night.

It is LBN asthe story was published at 12:30 today.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[silverweb]

6. Sad.

And such an unnecessary squabble.

:shrug:

[MatrixEscape]

7. The Bev thing

has been a strange turn of events. Makes me suspicious, but then many things do these days.

[Hephaistos]

40. check this out

Cached copy of her website before she got into BBV:

http://web.archive.org/web/19991112034903/http://www.talion.com/cigar.htm

Not saying anything, just a little hmmmmmm.... :freak:

[October]

86. Bartcop posted that a while back /eom

[graywarrior]

8. I was barred for life 5 times from the same barroom

[joanski01]

15. LOL

Needed that! Thanks.

[Romulus Quirinus]

17. Are you still banned?

Or are you just on double-secret probation? :)

[graywarrior]

62. Oh yeah. Drinking fame never fades.

[Misunderestimator]

19. Uh Oh

;)

[maryallen]

102. That's quite an accomplishment!

Funny ... thanks for the laugh.

[OKNancy]

9. Edit your subject line or this thread will be locked

It should read: Site Bars Black Box Voting Head

[intheflow]

10. Oi! The Freepers are going to LOVE this.

We made MSM by discrediting someone on the left involved with voting reform. :eyes: It'll be for the RW what the uber-conservatives getting pissy at Bush is for me: a fabulous illustration of one side feeding on itself.

And just to CMA, I'm neutral on the whole DU/Bev fiasco. I tend to think she's doing some great work even if she also appears to be hot-headed. I think the same could be said about DU. (Although DU's hot-headedness is one that I feel comfortable with.)

Peace, Everyone! :hippie:

[Maat]

16. Peace right back at ya'

I think that I'm neutral on it, too. This member of MoveOn is ... moving on.

[Chicago Democrat]

65. Lefties always argue amoungst themselves... Plus DU is about

debate whereas Bev is a true believer from way back. Our job is to VET. Hers is TO BE VETTED.

Its like going on trial. Newsmakers have really no place posting her if they can't take criticism.

[stepnw1f]

80. I wonder if they started this.

I really don't know much about this squabble, but feel this will be used against the cause. Now I'm pissed off.

[symbolman]

119. SHE

discredited herself.

There are no conspiracies, there are no vendettas, Karl ROve could give a rat's ass about her, Bush didn't buy her book and have it overnighted like she says at her site (later she says it was his librarian - see how she blows like the wind?)

SHE discredited herself when she walked on LePore's stage and served those bogus papers (bogus because they were hopefully legally served by someone else earlier in the day to LePore's office), which made US ALL look like idiots.

Sorry, but too many of us have a dog in this fight to put up with idiotic displays of self agrandizement for her to star in a film and plainly LYING.

I can say that because she's LIED to my face. IT's a fact.

We know a lobbyist in Washington DC who we asked about her.. she's considered a laughingstock there - that's what he told us, and he knows EVERYONE on DC - got all their numbers on his little blackberry device which they all use..

She's toast - you cannot pursue the truth when you are a liar. Pure and simple, and anyone that cannot see that when the proof is right in front of them is being played like a salmon on a fishing line..

I hope you don't think I'm referring to you in this post, just discussing the "discrediting" portion..

This is not feeding on it's own, this is called "housecleaning" so that the truth can be gotten at with credibility.

[intheflow]

153. OK, but...

saying that eveyone in DC thinks she's a laughing stock would make a case in her favor in many circles. It's not like they haven't been known to be delusional inside the beltway. Or that lobbyists aren't known for their biases! LOL!

(on edit... you know I'm just yanking your chain, right? I'm a wise guy from way back. the above is just teasing. Below is the real mccoy, though.)

And I'm not denying that ousting her was any less or more than housekeeping on DU's part, or passing any judgement on if it was good or bad. I'm saying that I don't know her or all the details of what has gone on with her and the DU community, so I'm not taking sides.

Peace!

[Mixxster]

210. "We made MSM by discrediting someone on the left...

involved with voting reform."
FWIW, I was under the impression that Bev Harris was not a Democrat.

[Kelvin Mace]

217. She's not

but she plays one on TV, or she does when she is soliciting funds here.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[intheflow]

223. I'm not a Democrat either, but I'm still on the left.

I'm sure most Republicans would consider Bev "on the left."

And regardless, she doesn't seem concerned with overturning the election but getting rid (or at least improving with paper trail) electronic voting, which should be a concern of both Republicans and Democrats.

So I don't think her actual political orientation matters. It's more the perception of her political orientation that will make the Repugs gleeful when they see we've banned her.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shakespeare]

12. I agree it's sad, but Olberman is right.

Bev's cause is righteous, but her approach does her cause more harm than good. I hope she sticks with it and reconsiders how she handles some things.

[Blue_Tires]

13. she'll be back eventually

hope the parties involved can work things out


even though, for the life of me, i can't understand why getting banned from a message board is news to anyone

[Karenina]

25. FIRST RULE OF PR...

And I was tutored at Rogers and Cowan...

DON'T MATTER WHAT THEY SAY AS LONG AS THEY KEEP TALKING! ;-)

[Jersey Devil]

14. Example of what NOT to say when defending yourself

From the article Harris says: "They're calling me a con man," - Well, I never saw any statement from DU Admins saying that, so what Harris has accomplished by commenting for the Wired story is to say something worse about herself than anything DU (Elad) ever said about her.

Amycrat hit it right on the money when she said Bev Harris sorely needs someone else to be doing her PR.

[peacetalksforall]

36. The admin announcement was on the up and up.

Jersey Devil...you're right...I've self-edited.

[Jersey Devil]

Why add an allegation never made by DU Admins?

that is far worse than anything they said about her? Does that make any sense from a PR point of view?

It's like someone being tossed from the library for having overdue library books adding: "Oh, by the way, some of the libary patrons also think I am a swindler."

[mumon]

38. wouldn't it be "con-person?"

just asking...

;-)

[Lizzie Borden]

18. I understand there have been problems

but I'm not sure 'banning' is a good idea. Maybe I'm just reacting to the word banned, as in banned books. It immediately gives me a feeling of unease.

[aquart]

41. What other choice was there?

The attack was concentrated and relentless. I saw very little of Bev and a great deal of other egos, but the only ego discussed was Bev's.

As to whether anyone actually said the words "con man," please. That was the ENTIRE implication.

As for Olberman, I found HIS statements remarkably abrasive. But, again, that wasn't the topic of the discussions.

Good thing I'm not a moderator. I would have banned a whole different list. Starting thread after thread attacking one person on the same day would have been a no-no for me. But maybe I lack a sense of justice.

[BlueDog2u]

107. She was threatening to sue DU

After reading the admin's lengthy and thoughtful post, my feeling was that she deserved to be banned.

[DoNotRefill]

220. oops...

shoulda read further. answered my own question. :)

[KoKo]

20. This really makes me sad. It looks like we've trashed the BBVoting

work...I understand she alienated folks, but this will be taken by the RW/Repugs/Freeps as showing everything about BBVoting was bogus....

It's really sad...

[hlthe2b]

26. So much for the adage, no such thing as bad publicity....

[Zhade]

28. It really IS sad.

I don't get what's up with Bev these days. I was once ready to defend her with my life (I know, dramatic, that's me), but she's gotten quite paranoid and abusive lately.

I'm thinking of how she threatened to sue Eloriel and DU when Eloriel used the term "BBV cleanup crew" to rally DUers to join in the fight against election fraud. Eloriel was just trying to help, and Bev attacked her with the threat of a lawsuit (ironically, it was the same kind of knee-jerk response I got from Diebold when I posted some of their files online).

Weird and sad.

[LisaM]

49. That part doesn't make sense

I checked the trademark database and the Washington state corporate database, and there are no pending trademarks for BBV CLEANUP CREW or anything belonging to her under BBV, and no Washington non-profits on the Washington state corporations database - though there were three registrations for a for-profit BBV corporation. I only checked the free databases - maybe she has a state trademark or a trade name somewhere else.

[Kelvin Mace]

99. And if she tries to trademark

it I will oppose the attempt. She did not create either the term "BBV" or the phrase "black box voting".

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[AP]

133. Registration isn't a prerequisite for bringing a TM infringement claim.

Every state (I'm guessing) has common law trademark protection. Registration gives some extra protection, but it isn't required.

[LisaM]

214. That's true, but she referred to it as a "trade name"

and she has not registered that either. For as indignant as she sounded, you would think she would have registered one or more of the terms or applied for some trademark protection.

[AP]

225. You don't need to register a trade name to sue for infringement.

It is protected by common law.

Not registering it raises questions, but none of them mean that she couldn't try to sue for infringement.

[Shakespeare]

59. OMG - I missed that!

That's bizarre--why on earth would she lash out at somebody so clearly on her side, who stands to do some real good on this fight?

[hlthe2b]

30. Actually upon fully reading the piece it is surprisingly well balanced...

If only the MSM would be so thorough.

[JPace]

31. I agree KoKo....

she was difficult but also promoted a lot of good along the way.
I hope no one's work goes to waste. Sad....

[aquart]

50. Yeah. Makes you wonder why it happened.

Attack and attack and attack, all at once like that. Like it was an assignment.

But it's not as though Dems aren't capable of eating our own. I mean, exactly what are we asking her to do that's so hard? Just please all of us.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

112. You've already admitted don't know what you are talking about...

So please stop pontificating on whats Healthy or Unhealthy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1960084#1967764
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1993788&mesg_id=2000755&page=
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230

Four must read links before anyone says Bev should be given the benefit of the doubt.

This issue does not have two sides.

It has about 40.

If you read these links you'll see its 36-4.




Who cares what the freepers think about the attempts to rid ourselves of a self aggrandizing liar.


Yes it's OK to say the "L" word. She has been caught LYING several times here on DU. Read the links.

These Lies are not cases of Orwellian Misspeak. They are LIES that have directly had a negative, disruptive and purposely harmful affect on the entire BBV movement.


The movement is bigger and stronger than Bev Harris.

Now is the time to expose her LIES.

We have just successfully vetted our mainstream spokesperson and found serious flaws. This is a good thing.

I would much rather we exposed them than have Drudge do it.

Bev has accomplished nothing she cares to have peer reviewed since Nov 2 and maybe before.

The Work done by the ENTIRE BBV/Verified Voting COMMUNITY is the smoking gun.

The fact nobody fixed the provable problems and claim to have executed a safe election is fraud.

Bev gallivanting around Florida looking for a smoking gun is insulting.

You and I have as much chance of finding where the fraud took place pouring over obscure technical data received from the 3000+ FIOA requests as they do. Thats why Bev, Andy, and Kathleen have decided to hoard the data and take a road trip instead.

We need to continue this fight based on the merits of the case, not the route Bev was taking.

Her latest angle "Freepers are people too", and "The Dem's might just be in on it" have marginalized herself to the
Libertarian movement for her support.

Alex Jones will no doubt interview her soon.

I doubt Randi or Malloy ever will again.

So stop accusing people who have researched her LIES and PARANOID fits of Grandeur of hurting the cause, or, of having sinister motives.

It is the gullible among us we must fear and challenge, not those willing to take the risk of questioning their own leaders when the stench of corruption and deceit start to catch the back of their throat.

[symbolman]

125. If she can't take the heat

she needs to stay out of the kitchen..

SHE DIscredited HERSELF.

But BevBorgs (you know, the ones with 37 posts who don't post anything but "Let me get my Visa card out and send her money again!"

or "I don't see what she did that was so wrong, I walk around sueing anyone that disagrees with me all the time.."

She has NO veracity, NO credibility, and she has LIED to my face - why don't the people that LOVE her so much go to HER site and support her THERE -- I'll tell you why, because it's empty.. all the money there have been vaccuumed from pockets, and I looks like about 10 people with 30 usernames all singing the company song..

and then these same posters accuse US and the DU of "conspiracies" and being Freepers..

Jesus, that's just INSANE.

[Kelvin Mace]

98. Bev Harris is notthe Alpha and Omega of BBV

but this will be taken by the RW/Repugs/Freeps as showing everything about BBVoting was bogus....

You mean Bev's new allies?

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/dcforum/DCForumID4410/2.html#8

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Zhade]

156. JESUS. I cannot believe I just read that!

From that bewildering thread:

We are nonpartisan. Everyone who's not a criminal wants clean elections. One of our board members, Jim March, has done some fantastic work on this issue, and I guess you'd describe him as a "freeper" -- he's a gun lobbyist who supports George Bush.

The guy whose Diebold files I mirrored, taking a risk and getting threatened with a lawsuit for posting the files, is a b*sh supporter.

I cannot explain how incredibly PISSED that makes me, to know I helped a motherfucker like that.

I must go bathe now.

[Zhade]

184. "Skinner is a former professional organizer for the DLC."

Someone's spreading negative rumors about our own Skinner...

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/dcforum/DCForumID4410/2.html#20

First things first. Skinner is a former professional organizer for the DLC. Skinner is a disciple of Al From. He's been using DU as an instrument to promote Al From's agenda since the birth of DU.

I was one of the original orginal DUers. I was originally using the id "Brad Majors" (from Rocky Horror), them went to using my real name on the forum. I wasn't banned from DU. I walked out when Skinnner started allowing post promoting keeping Bush's entire tax cut package in place when Graham's Presidential campaign started advocating that position.

Skinner has one of the foulest tempers you can possibly imagine. Insulting. Rude. Profanity that would make a Navy Chief Petty Officer blush. Then he deletes his flames to leave no evidence to understand why there are charred ruins all over the forum. DU is a reflection of every bit of that. I've known DU.com was going to blow it in a big, ugly, public way for a long time because of what I saw from the people who manage the site. It's very sad. It's a place progressives have come to rely upon on the net. I think DUers should consider themselves lucky that DU lasted as long as it did before the management showed their true natures publically. Progressives cannot rely upon the wildly fluctuating emotional state of it's DU's operators to plan on DU being there for important organizational tasks. As one of the very early unofficial Dean online organizers, I consider one of my greatest successes to be keeping the Dean campaign for the most part off that board when it was suggested by other unofficial early online organizers, and, as they say, the rest is history. I wish I could take credit for having foreknowledge of what would be accomplished on the blogosphere by Dean. No. No. No. No. I was clueless on that. However, I did keep the unofficial Dean campaign early volunteers from being stopped dead in their tracks by a 16 month long DU flame war.

[patcox2]

212. Bradmajors was a tool.

Too bad he wasn't shitcanned.

[realisticphish]

226. profanity?

i have NEVER seen skinner use profanity at ALL


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[screembloodymurder]

224. I agree with you

This is bad PR.

[LifeDuringWartime]

27. first ive heard ANYTHING about this

wow. what the hell happened?

[KDLarsen]

34. There's a pretty long thread following the statement..

.. where her first publisher (the Plan 9 publisher) lays out a number of evidence of Bev not really telling the truth. I suggest you read it, I did and that really turned my opinion of Bev 180 degrees.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

35. yeah, me too

if anyone can give a rundown of what went down, that would be great.....

[GregW]

29. Does that mean I can take her off my ignore list?

[wildflower]

32. Please edit your subject line to match article, per LBN rules

It should say, "Site Bars Black Box Voting Head"

[The Flaming Red Head]

33. Has it been put in wired, yet? Are we getting a scoop?

search queries can't find it, yet.

Search Error: No query results for " Site Bars Black Box Voting Head"

I lost it and then tried to find it on my own. I'm not very good at this.

[Barrett808]

37. Bev's statement re Olbermann

...

Regarding being invited to be on Countdown with Keith Olbermann:

I was invited to be on the show on Nov 5. I cleared my schedule. At the last minute, the producer, Katy Carp, cancelled without an explanation.

I was invited to be on the show on Nov. 8. I cleared my schedule. One hour before the show, I contacted producer Katy Carp, who had scheduled me, because I wanted to confirm the exact time. She had not bothered to call me to cancel, but casually, and with no explanation, said "oh that's been cancelled."

I have never spoken to any producer from Olbermann's show since Nov. 8 for any invitation to be on the show. We did not come to Florida for the Volusia County or Palm Beach investigations until November 12.

Regarding making "threats" or being "belligerent":

I called Olbermann's producers very early on Thursday morning when I saw the factually incorrect, and damaging, story that Olbermann had done. I've worked very hard to establish my reputation, and the allegations that I was making up news, or that I was refusing to show anyone the source documents, and that I refused repeatedly to appear on his show, especially when followed by editorializing telling people why they should not believe my reporting because I had "repeatedly declined" to appear on the show, were very damaging.

I asked the producers to issue a correction, the standard remedy in journalism. After two hours, and after leaving two messages, I still had not heard from them. I left more messages, saying that I would of course appear on the show, suggesting that we arrange that immediately, and that of course I would bring the materials they were asking for, at least the ones I own.

After seven hours I still had not heard from them. I called again, and yes, I was assertive and forceful that the situation had to be addressed, a correction needed to be issued, and that it was damaging and libelous.

I did insist that it was imperative that we address the issue, and I did say that if I did not hear from them, I would have to call my lawyer.

(more)

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/dcforum/DCForumID4410/29.html

[PlanetBev]

43. Maybe Bev was feeling extra stress after the election

I know I've been angry and hostile a lot more these days. I was reading an article about people who are getting group therapy after the election and one of the symptoms is hostility.

Bev has done a lot of good and I hope her differences with DU comes out in the wash.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

117. I think thats version 3.2

You must keep checking her site for the latest bug free version of her side of the story.

I think her site might have released the v4.0 beta.

[Barrett808]

39. Bev's statement re DU

Several months back, the Democratic Underground mods started selectively enforcing the rules. Especially beginning around July, when we announced our Qui Tam action, our posts began to be trolled by a handful of "DU" members, who launched personal attacks and engaged in endless personality squabbles.

I tried three different approaches, none of which worked.

- Tried to respond to the attacks. That just fanned the flames.
- Tried ignoring the attacks. That still fanned the flames, and the attacks became more vicious, to the point of libel (e.g. "she's a con man who probably steals credit cards") and when I didn't respond, the attackers would say, "see, if this wasn't true she'd defend herself"
- Tried following "DU" rules and alerting the mods, who usually did nothing about the personal attacks, but threatened to ban me if I used the alert button.

I still posted on Democratic Underground fairly frequently, because it is a good place to vet out arguments. The debate there is more aggressive, since many members don't have any particular loyalty to Black Box Voting, and that is constructive when trying to hone a message.

(more)

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/dcforum/DCForumID4410/2.html#1

BTW, I'm not affiliated with BBV. Just an interested observer.

[Merlin]

53. 2 Questions: (1) Who on DU attacked her? (2) What is "Qui Tam"

I'm very sorry to hear this. It's a setback for everyone.

It's a sad fact that the great strengths of an unusually industrious person also often wind up being their own greatest weaknesses.

I've never seen anybody on DU attack Bev. She can be testy--as I learned when I first called her last spring. But we forgave each other, became civil, and developed a working relationship.

It's always seemed to me that she had an enormous personal cheering gallery here on DU. To hear complaints that people were trashing her is surprising, since I spend several hours a day here.

The other question is about "Qui Tam." What on earth is that all about? All I know is that I once spent six months on the "Hawk Hill" firebase about 5 miles from the town of "Tam Qui" in I-Corps, Vietnam. I'm sure they're not related, but what a coincidence.

[GinaMaria]

71. Qui Tam as I understand it means a whistle blower case

regarding the government or government contract. Usually fraud and stealing money or cooking the books. I'm not sure why Qui Tam is being talked about here. I must have missed something as usual. Can any one fill us in on that?

[Barrett808]

78. Digging into the archive -- start with this helpful post from Maddy McCall

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x108750#109988

Looks pretty ugly.

[Kelvin Mace]

104. Bev filed a qui tam case

after accusing other people of "selling out" and "stealing her work"

You can read when Bev announced she was filing it and the reaction amongst the DU old-timers here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1960084

If you have more questions let me know.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
www.plan9.org
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[onenote]

75. qui tam explained

http://www.quitam.com/quitam1.html

Qui tam (Black's Law Dictionary pronunciation: kwày tæm) is an abbreviation from the Latin "qui tam pro domino rege quam pro sic ipso in hoc parte sequitur" meaning "who as well for the king as for himself sues in this matter."

Black's Law Dictionary defines a qui tam action as "an action brought by an informer, under a statute which establishes a penalty for the commission or omission of a certain act, and provides that the same shall be recoverable in a civil action, part of the penalty to go to any person who will bring such action and the remainder to the state or some other institution."

Qui tam is a provision of the Federal Civil False Claims Act that allows private citizens to file a lawsuit in the name of the U.S. Government charging fraud by government contractors and others who receive or use government funds, and share in any money recovered.

This unique law was enacted by Congress in order to effectively identify and prosecute government procurement and program fraud and recover revenue lost as a result of the fraud.

The qui tam provision has had the effect of privatizing government legal remedies by allowing private citizens to act as "private attorneys general" in the effort to prosecute government procurement and program fraud. Although most of the early successes in qui tam actions have been against defense contractors, more and more actions are being filed that involve other governmental agencies such as Health and Human Services, Environment, Energy, Education, NASA, Agriculture and Transportation. U.S. recoveries for qui tam cases, as of the end of 2003, has totaled $7.8 billion. During the same period, relator shares, as a result of the recoveries, has totaled $1.3 billion.

onenote

[Merlin]

159. Way-2-Go OneNote! Thanks.

Who'dathunkit!

[smiley_glad_hands]

158. Someone who has knowlege of government fraud

and can sue on behalf of the govt and share in the proceeds of the successful civil lawsuit. I assume she's suing someone or some entity in the govt over BBV fraud.

[villagechild]

44. banned

I'm hoping this was a Democratic decision.

[TahitiNut]

45. It seems she's not attuned to the "attack the messenger" culture.

I've not weighed in on this soap opera, and I'll continue to desist ... except to say: the PTB, the media, and the political right continue to succeed in shifting the discussion from the message (fraud-prone balloting) to the messenger (Bev, in this case). I get the impression that Bev has not, like most others have not, been able to mute the personal attacks and plague of disinformation - and has let it detrimentally affect her demeanor. I really don't know who wouldn't.

I tire of the "People Magazine" culture. The fact remains that the Trojan Horse of technology has been brought inside walls of our democracy. As long as people focus on personalities instead of issues, we've lost.

[WillyT]

72. Well Said TN... Well Said !!!

:bounce::kick::bounce:

[fishnfla]

79. some say DU gave Bev her start and she attacked that messenger

she bit the hand that fed her. she used many DUers

[WillyT]

84. And If Those Are The Facts, Then Shame On Her, And Sad For Us, But...

Now SHE becomes the story. And this may be of her own making, but SHE will probably remain the story. And NOT the thing we need to BE the story.

Did the American people care that whether or not Kerry was really a flip-flopper, or that Bush was 100 times worse??? Nope. They framed that story on Kerry first, it stuck, and that was all she wrote.

Think the American people bothered to check out the legitimacy of the Swift-Boat liars, and the truth of their charges against Kerry. Again, nope. The spectacular lies, in their spectacular commercials, was all many people needed to see in order to push the thought of a Kerry presidency aside, and keep the biggest pustule on the butt of American History in office for another four death-filled years.

As TN was suggesting, it's all about the personality now.

And I'd wager that ya just might see even more stories on BBV coming up soon, but I'll bet they all end with the personality and credibility of Bev, which they will try to spread over the whole BBV issue, and obscure the entire point!

Bye Bye Love... Bye Bye Democracy...

:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

95. Gee, thanks for the "some say" gossip. If you'd read my post, you'd know

I don't give a flying fuck!
It has NOTHING to do with the sabotage of democracy!

(Jesus! There'd be SOME people who'd engage in back-biting gossip even while being gassed in the ovens!) :eyes:

[WillyT]

137. LOL !!!

:highfive:

:argh:

[SomthingsGotaGive]

128. What disinformation are you talking about?

I haven't seen any disinformation coming from Bev's critics.

[belab13]

46. "Well behaved women rarely make history."

[Karenina]

63. Ain't that the truth?

Carrie had an AXE!

[merh]

81. Wasn't that Lizzie Borden?

:shrug:

[Karenina]

85. Details, details!!!

Maybe it was Carrie had the sledge hammer! ;-) :shrug:

[Shakespeare]

89. You're thinking of two different women--both of whom had axes.

Carrie Nation was an Original Freeper--took her axe to saloons and other establishments that served alcohol. Trivia: I had her (liberal) great-nephew as a history prof in college (Jack Nation).

Lizzie Borden wasn't an activist--she just hacked her family to death.

Couple of other points--one, I wouldn't EVEN put Bev Harris on the level of any of our feminist heroes, and two, I wouldn't consider Carrie Nation a feminist hero; if you want a good radical to use for an example, look to someone like Alice Paul.

[merh]

91. Oh, that Carrie!

I thought she was referring to Stephen King's "Carrie". She didn't use an axe, but she had strong psychic powers that caused a lot of problems.

Of Carrie Nation did use an axe. (Was her liberal great nephew liberal with the sauce?)

Thank you for the clarification/correction.

[Karenina]

97. Thanks for setting the record straight.

My point is, well behaved women rarely make history. Bev has done important work. I won't "judge" her idiosyncracies and have steered clear of them.

My heroines are Dorothy Donegan and Clora Bryant. ;-)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

215. EMMA GOLDMAN!!!

i am so so sad about this :(

[Jersey Devil]

48. David Allen a DU "administrator? That's what the story says

Maybe I missed something. Isn't David Allen her former publisher, a DU member who runs blackboxvoting.com (rather than Bev's ".org")?

[arissa]

51. Different David Allen

Skinner's name is also David Allen.

[Jersey Devil]

55. Sheesh, thanks, like it isn't confusing enough (nt)

v

[Merlin]

56. Thanks. I didn't know BBV's David Allen was not our illustrious Skinner.

That changes the complexion of things a little.

[Kelvin Mace]

106. I am going to have to add a disclaimer

David Allen (not Skinner, but just as handsome)
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

138. For the better, I hope.

[Kelvin Mace]

105. We have the same name

it happens.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
www.plan9.org
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[troubleinwinter]

57. Oh, NO! NOT another Bev thread!

I thought everyone got to have their say in the 700+ message thread on this subject.

Here we go again... (and just when 'hide thread' isn't available).

This serves no purpose at all.

[Shakespeare]

60. Does anybody have a link to that thread?

Apparently, I spaced out and completely missed the excitement.

[troubleinwinter]

66. It is here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=108750&mesg_id=108750

[Chicago Democrat]

58. Bev is loosing it

she's under alot a pressure

[lalajohns]

61. Sad to read about Bev being banned from DU

Harris' postings were NOT belligerent as DU claimed.

[arissa]

64. You might want to get your story straight

Keith Olbermann referred to Bev as belligerent, not DU.

[fishnfla]

67. You might want to check the history

the thread was in election 2004 results and discussion. links are provided with background.

Plus her threads/posts werent the only problem, she was alerting and emailing the admin, threatening libel lawsuits.

[symbolman]

82. you don't call

THREATENING TO SUE THE DU and other innocent folks "belligerent"?

Amazing.

She threatened to sue more people than Bill O'Reilly..

[DubyaSux]

103. You have no idea...

...what you're talking about.

I am informed enough to debate this issue and have been on the reciveing end of her rants when I've taken her on.

Do you know what's worse? Having her cohorts (Andy Stephensen, et al) join the fray. They aren't as abrasive, but it's clear she'sa certified nutjob . When she can't answer a question (i.e "How do you get a monkey alone with a central tabulator on election day?"), she answers with attacks.

She chose to be part of the problem instead of part of the solution. So, I say - Good riddance.

[Kelvin Mace]

145. Have you read them?

What do you call threatening to sue someone? What do you call vicious and libelous attacks? Fan mail?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[symbolman]

69. So she

LIES in her statement about DU..

does anyone see this? I do, and I've been screwed by her BS to the tune of over a thousand dollars.

How can she claim to have the TRUTH about Voting machine irregularities if she LIES?

And she's been caught in many whoppers, it's ain't like she's just too busy.. she LIED to my face quite a few times and even reversed herself IN THE SAME STATEMENT when answering my simple questions.

If I had given her money (the more than a thousand was not a contribution) I'd be banding with other people suckered by her as a group and demanding MY MONEY BACK.

She has no credibility whatsoever and I personally will never believe another word she says. Period.

Glad the word is getting out so the people doing real work with veracity get on the tube and not HER.

[Plaid Adder]

70. This is very sad.

I wasn't following the last flap so I can say nothing about it one way or another. I will say that having followed the BBV thing with considerable interest for a long time, I did eventually get to the point where I was taking pretty much everything she posted with many very large grains of salt. This is because she had such a penchant for dropping hints of verrrrrrrrry suspicious behavior that she didn't want to reveal yet but would soon and hints that soon, everything was about to get blown wide open and watch this space for breaking developments and then there never were any breaking developments. Now, you can say whatever you want about why she would have taken that approach, but the point is that eventually you get to the point where, when she posts about something, you feel like you want to hear someone else say it before you get too excited about it.

I don't suspect Bev of anything underhanded or con-man-like. I think she really does believe everything she posts about. She obviously is committed to voting reform and she has done a lot of good in terms of raising awareness. But the thing is that if you want people to believe that you found the secret to VoteFraud 2004 in a garbage bag in Volusia County, the way you present yourself has to inspire credibility. I'm a left-wing lunatic myself who's very concerned about electronic voting and vote fraud, and I found myself reacting to her posts with a lot of skepticism. I figure that means other people were looking at them with even greater skepticism.

I hope that eventually some of the rifts will be healed and everyone can come together over the issue in spite of the personal stuff. Being on the fringes, as we all are, takes a toll on people, and it means we are not all liable to act rationally at all times. I hope eventually it blows over and she gets to come back.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[fishnfla]

76. The threads baited with breathless anticipation, the cloak and dagger

hints, I'm trying to remember: were they often asking for more donations? Were they attempts to placate donors?

[Jax]

77. Quite a shame

for me Eloriel became the definitive DU voice for black box voting several months ago. Harris has a message and information that is important and real, Eloriel just came across to me as a better messenger on these forums a while back.

Jax

[peacetalksforall]

83. When someone is thought to be loosing it, they need backing, not

attacking which creates fodder for the enemy. Anyone who has taken time out of her life to work this hard needs some backing.

Just this morning people warned about the trouble that 'Clint' who is involved in the FL-Yang Enterprises voting machine code story about the risk of getting skewered by the right. They warned that he will go through a discrediting campaign. He is a whistlebower, she is an investigator. I don't see much difference.

As one reader who seems to have missed all the messages she is supposed to have written that contained over the top behavior that others are upset about, I feel now is not the time to skewer her.

I support admin because I'm confident they must have had their own case, but I don't support the rest of the name calling and piling on for what appears (to me) to be personal relationship reasons and disagreements on how she should run her mission.

Take the 'I' out of the accusations by fellow members. Put the 'we' back into the mission.

[Monkie]

87. finally..well said..

i have been trying to think of a good way to say this...
and then you did :D
plus it doesnt help me having a big mouth with my sub-50 posting total :P
all that matters is the FACTS!the FRAUD

[KoKo]

88. Skinner was in "a bind" with this one....allow Bev to keep threatening

or "tombstone her." If he "Tombstoned" he was abiding by the rules he set out for all of us. Allowing her to confront Admins and Mods with threats of lawsuits, etc...couldn't go on...He was trying to be very FAIR.

BUT! When we have "controversial DU'ers" who could be vulnerable to FREEP ATTACKS who have done excellent work for us ...where do we draw the line??????????????

That's my problem. NOW BEV WILL BE TRASHED...and yet I convinced three folks in my "small relm of acquaintences to vote for Kerry/Edwards because of much of what Bev and DU'er's accomplished about BBVoting.

What am I supposed to do NOW? Tell them that Bev is "bi-polar" and she's been thrown off Dem Web Sites BUT that they still should "believe?"

I'm really in a bind here...????:shrug:

[Barrett808]

94. Have you checked out Maddy McCall's thread? (I cite in #78 above)

These posts paint a pretty disturbing picture, unfortunately.

[KoKo]

111. Maddy doesn't think much of Bev...so I don't want to use her as an

example. I read most of Maddy's (j.child's) comments on the over 700 thread that Elad posted. I stayed with what I wanted to say. Maddy has their opinion and I have mine..mine was trying to stay "somewhere in the middle." :shrug:

[SomthingsGotaGive]

143. Hi KoKo01

I agree talking the middle ground on this is the correct approach.

However this is not a two sided issue.

As I have said above this is 40+ sided issue.

I don't know any of the players outside reading their comments here and elsewhere.

I see the middle ground being pretty close to the sentiment of most informed people not personally jilted or attacked by Bev but unafraid to research her claims.

[Shakespeare]

208. Did it occur to you there's a REASON She doesn't have a high opinion?

It's called an informed opinion. You're falling into the same trap that's snagged far too many journalists who think they have to give equal weight to both sides when one side is clearly wrong. Sigh.

[Kelvin Mace]

108. Bev sees Freepers as her allies

you need to get caught up on her postings.

She and George Bush are pals now.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[KoKo]

110. David....if you are correct then she has some "difficulty." I'll check

the site out...but as I said...I hate to see her work with the DU'ers trashed. I have my head on the line. How can I convince folks on the Right about BBV...because of Bev and the "Votergate" which my fundie friend downloaded and sent off to his relatives in Georgia...that she's NOT Legit? He will not ever believe a thing I say again..

I'm telling you this is really bad for us... How do we maintain credibility with those we convinced because of Bev and BBVOTING???

(and believe me David...I'm more on your side than you know..but cutting Bev off leaves ME vulnerable to the very RW'ers (granted I only have three of them..but still) that I managed to recruit because they liked what she said, her site and the "Votergate Documentary."

Folks have put themselves on the line because of Bev and we're now asked to tell those we "strongarmed" that she has "problems???" Excuse Me??

Don't Tom DeLay and the rest of the Repug pedofiles and perverts have "PROBLEMS?" So, why should Bev who is the "medium for conversion of RWingers" supposed to take the FALL when the Repugs CHERISH their own...never CUT THEM OFF and do KISSIES WITH THEM???

Help me here???

[Kelvin Mace]

116. The early things Bev dug

up with the assistance of DUers was SOLID. Avi Rubin validated the findings. The machines are unreliable and insecure. Bev wanted to harp on tying it all to a grand RW conspiracy which will NOT make any friends on the Right.

Her later stuff has no real backing. She drove off all the good reserachers she worked with and replaced them with yesmen.

There are plenty of other folks working this issue from a non-partisan and scientific angle.

Here is Bev's current view of freepers:



8. "Please do not bash 'freepers' -- here's why"
In response to message #7

that is a term that comes from Free Republic, a political forum. Free Republic has had some outstanding discussions on voting machine integrity in the past. I have gotten some good consultation from "freepers."

We are nonpartisan. Everyone who's not a criminal wants clean elections. One of our board members, Jim March, has done some fantastic work on this issue, and I guess you'd describe him as a "freeper" -- he's a gun lobbyist who supports George Bush.

You may be very surprised at who's in our corner on this issue. In fact, George Bush ordered my book, had it overnighted.

Thanks.

Bev

[KoKo]

121. David...that won't convince the three right wingers I've converted....and

explaining our way out of a hole where we don't give Bev the same protection the RWINGERS give DeLay...sort of defeats our purpose doesn't it..when it's used against us.

I want to be "purer, better, more intellectually balanced" than the RW but when the folks amongst us who "err and stray" get trashed they are gone...but the Repugs love their folks who "err and stray." They are given "plaques and pedestals" and put in "Halls of Fame!" Until we stop killing our most "flamboyant" we will end up with the Daschles, Reid's, Biden's, Bayh's, Gephardt's and the rest who sit and wait for someone "pure" or "scurrilious" enough to lead them away from their "hand wringing" which seems to be their only mode of operation... And if the person is "scurrilous" and not "pure" enough, then it's all the more reason to "cut loose" and discard the baggage...

Ugh....:-(

[Kelvin Mace]

127. Read "Lord of the Rings"

explaining our way out of a hole where we don't give Bev the same protection the RWINGERS give DeLay...sort of defeats our purpose doesn't it..when it's used against us.

One cannot adopt the tactics of the enemy, because one becomes the enemy. If I have to become condone evil to fight evil, I have lost. (and I am not calling Bev evil, I am referring to using RW tactics to fight the RW).

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

188. Bingo! Yes. The ends DO NOT justify the means for those

of us who use our brains in this once-great empire.

[KTM]

166. And ?

Seems to me like she is making a decent statement about the need for some moderates on the right to see the BIG issues behind BBV - not just the single-instance issue of this election - and not be written off as "the enemy."

I suggest you read Chuck Herrin's Hack The Vote website - another good example of someone on the right whom we should not alienate - I thought his voice was particualrly compelling, and was one I could offer my friends and acquaintances who are Pubs without instant rejection.

Her statement is valid. I am not weighing in on the totality of her work and postings, but you harp on this one like she had joined the dark side or something - and I think you know what she is really saying here.

In all honesty, I think you are being antagonistic - gloating even. We all know you had a spat with Bev, and you happily played a large part in the flame wars that led to her banning. Again, I'm not defending her, nor condeming you... just pointing out that you are hardly the paragon of impartiality on this topic, and I think that is leading you to make some eroneous assumptions - and to offer those to others (some of whom have made clear they have not followed this story) as if you are some sideline viewer, which you clearly have not been.

She's gone, you're still here, blah blah whatever.. stop gloating, stop being so high-and-mighty, and for Pete's sake don't let it lead you to such ridiculous (even freeper-esque) knee-jerk arguments as this one.

[Kelvin Mace]

168. Bev isn't talking about moderates, she's talking about GWB and freepers

I suggest you read Chuck Herrin's Hack The Vote website - another good example of someone on the right whom we should not alienate - I thought his voice was particularly compelling, and was one I could offer my friends and acquaintances who are Pubs without instant rejection.

Actually, I am working with Chuck on this problem in NC. Nice fellow, I look forward to meeting him.

You need to go back and read what she is saying. After MONTHS of claiming freepers were attacking her and the GOP is stealing the election, she starts claiming George Bush in on her side.

Give me a break.

I am not gloating. I played NO part in the "flaming" that got her banned. I addressed her lies. I never claimed to be impartial and if you actually bother to READ some of my postings you will find that I have admonished people who ask for just a summary so they don't have to read long threads to find the facts that to be fair to Bev they MUST read them, otherwise they have no context and I can cherry pick links to make my case. I am NOT impartial, thus I have an even HIGHER obligation to documents my claims, which I feel I have done.

What "erroneous assumptions" have I made. I document my case provide the links. People read the links and make up their mind whether I have proven my case.

She's gone, you're still here, blah blah whatever.. stop gloating, stop being so high-and-mighty, and for Pete's sake don't let it lead you to such ridiculous (even freeper-esque) knee-jerk arguments as this one.

Please. There you go again, impugning me by comparing me to a freeper. Bev now claims to consort with freepers, I don't.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[KTM]

178. Come on

You need to go back and read what she is saying. After MONTHS of claiming freepers were attacking her and the GOP is stealing the election, she starts claiming George Bush in on her side.

Look, I dont have a dog in this fight.. although, like it or lump it, I think Bev played a huge role in helping this story gain some much needed traction - as did many others, including yourself, understood. But I think it is plain you are going overboard with this one silly "dont pick on freepers" post of hers, and in doing so (at least for me) weaken your own arguments as much as you claim she weakens hers.

She never claims "George Bush is on her side," from what I see.. just that he bought her book, as did many others on the Right. (That would be a bad assumption on your part, BTW.. the one I originally referenced is the one that says "she says some freepers arent all that bad, therefore she must be on their side."

Again, I'm not a fan on the knuckle-dragging, hate-spewing, close-minded stereotypical "moran" whom we call a Freeper... but it would be idiotic of me to assume that none who are members there are more moderate than that stereotype. We know we at DU have some far lefties, some moderates, heck, some DINOs even.. I've no doubt some of my more computer-literate moderate Pub coworkers go there (and likewise no doubt that some of my more idiotic ditto-head coworkers go there as well.) Your inference that she is embracing all of freeper-dom simply because she argues that we shouldnt alienate everyone on the right is poor, and I suspect you - as someone who has made intelligient posts and sound arguments in the past - know that.

[Zhade]

196. Actually, she does say that, in a sense.

You may be very surprised at who's in our corner on this issue. In fact, George Bush ordered my book, had it overnighted.

The only reason to include these two sentences next to each other is to suggest a connection. The second sentence gives an example based on the first.

No sane person can write that sentence. Do you know why? Because it would make your brain melt.

b*sh. Stole 2000 election. Not interested in, say, black people voting.

b*sh bought anti-BBV book. Is interested in clean elections--

ERROR! ERROR! DOES NOT COMPUTE!

:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:

[Kelvin Mace]

203. Do you actually read the posts here?

although, like it or lump it, I think Bev played a huge role in helping this story gain some much needed traction

Bev has been credited OVER and OVER again for the her contributions. However, she is also negating these contributions by her erratic behaviour.

She never claims "George Bush is on her side,

Really?

You may be very surprised at who's in our corner on this issue. In fact, George Bush ordered my book, had it overnighted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=108750&mesg_id=111218&page=

Looks like that's what she says to me.

but it would be idiotic of me to assume that none who are members there are more moderate than that stereotype.

I didn't claim she was "embracing" freeperdom, just that this is the latest in a LONG series of bizarre actions on her part. Her post delineates the disingeniousness of her supporters who constantly accuse her critics of being freepers.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[yowzayowzayowza]

169. Antagonistic?

Yer GD right. I would be too. Gloating? Haven't seen that.... Have certainly seen the frustration of numbing months of grief.

[demobabe]

118. It's not the message - it's the messenger

See my post on this thread #101 on focusing on the issue.

How do cult leaders get followers? They're charismatic, and they use some basic truths that are undeniable. Then they throw their own crap on top of it all.

The voter fraud issue is a HUGE movement. Bev gained her knowledge from people RIGHT HERE who did a lot of research for her and took the time to explain the issue. She was just a mouthpiece.

When talking to your rightwing friends, you just keep telling them the FACTS - Bev Harris is NOT essential in this context.

[KoKo]

124. Well...I'm waiting for that "White Horse Rider" to come in with BBVOTING

BLAZING ON THE SADDLE TO REDEEM AND SAVE ME! Where is it?????:shrug:

We might not like the "messenger" but is the "message" worth it? I don't know, really...I have many problems myself with Bev...

But where is the "White Hat?"

[Kelvin Mace]

130. Where is the saviour?

In our mirrors.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[KoKo]

134. HA! In our Mirrors.....please... You don't find a Bev in your "mirror"

every day...and most of us don't have the ability to get that kind of publicity...I'ts a very philosophical statement...I would agree most times with you...but not in this case when my "butt's on the line" with folks I've converted because of Bev. She had an appeal that "We folks looking into Mirrors" just ain't gonna have...sorry... but she had to go...I get it..

[Shakespeare]

209. If you're waiting for Bev to come "redeem and save" you...

....you're going to be waiting an awfully long time. And in fact, that may be one of the saddest things I've ever read. I hope you're being a little hyperbolic about the Bev as Redeemer statement. Please do not confuse BBV with the cult of personality around Bev Harris. HUGE error to do that. BBV exists and goes on quite well with or without Bev Harris.

[Chicago Democrat]

113. The timing is unfortunate...

I wish we could have somehow kept this out of the press, but I guess we are the press now.

[demobabe]

120. It doesn't matter

The press really doesn't care about Bev Harris all that much.

Keith Olbermann had Barney the dog on his show the next night instead of Bev and nobody really noticed.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MasonJar]

96. I am shocked beyond words. After Bev has worked so hard,

how could DU ban her?

[Kelvin Mace]

109. Easy

She kept threatening to sue them. Works for me.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Red State Rebel]

204. I was shocked beyond words at her behavior toward DU

She has received substantial support - both moral and financial and to turn around and make the accusations and threats to sue that she did was uncalled for.

Skinner was more than tolerant - the last thing this site would want to do is hurt the cause, but you cannot allow a tantrum throwing "diva" to disrupt and cause problems no matter what good works she has done. While I'm sure his priority is the cause, it is also DU and maintaining the credibility of this forum. That cannot be done if you allow someone to run rampant over other members and threaten you.

From everything I've read on both this site, BBV and the Olbermann information, she comes off as a hothead - loose canon. The sooner she learns to think before she blows her stack, the better off she will be, not to mention more effective. Her credibility is slipping quickly and I'm afraid she will end up being a detriment to what we are trying to accomplish on the electronic vote fraud front.

[lovuian]

100. All I can say is I'm not surprised at all!!!

Everything is connected and there are no coincidences!!!

I will say the timing couldn't be at the worst time!!!

[symbolman]

115. All these conspiracy theories

about Harris being knocked off her horse while she's "unearthing evidence" are complete BS..

COME ON. The people she screwed over were DEMOCRATS - me, David Allen BBV.COM, the ones she threatened to sue on the DU.. DEMOCRATS..

Not Freepers or Right wingers, HER OWN PEOPLE..

tho now, I'm not convinced that Democrats were HER own people..

She changes her rationale like the wind, now she's courting Freepers..

Wake up please - there is no conspiracy, she's been caught LYING and if you are supposed to be Unearthing the TRUTH, you CANNOT BE A LIAR.

Why can't the koolaid drinkers see that?

Sometimes BS is just BS and she has 20 lbs of it in a 10lb sack..

[demobabe]

101. No, this is not a shame, and we need to move on.

I was thinking yesterday about how quiet it was on the DU, and how I was forgetting which DU posters I was 'supposed' to be mad at...

...and how nice it was to have forgotten.

The whole Bev thing caused more divisiveness and conflict on this board, and I really have no idea why the DU admins reinstated Bev's membership after they tombstoned her the first time when she made legal threats against the DU.

And then I didn't understand why the DU admins allowed her to remain on the board after she made legal threats a few weeks ago - especially after creating an all-out fundraising campaign on the DU while they themselves were trying to raise money.

I'm really quite tired of folks with either:
a) no direct experience with Bev Harris or
b) Bev's suckups
making excuses for her or speaking about legalese they have no understanding of.

"She's under stress."
"She didn't say X exactly..."
"There's a band of freepers on the DU trying to take her down!"
"Olbermann just doesn't get it - she wasn't trying to threaten him"
etc. etc. etc.

I warned weeks ago you would be let down.

Yes, Bev is a nice lady. This is why she's been able to get so far. She's a delight to speak to. And I'm saying that in all seriousness.

But she is NOT the issue, and all of this undue attention to her political "demise" is a sad distraction from all the people who have been actively working on this issue - Bev is not the only one.

Look at all Eloriel has done. Look at what Ida Briggs did - getting the NH recount happening - which in turn has helped get other recounts happening. Look at all David Dill and VerifiedVoting.org have done. Look at what's going on in Ohio. Those are just a few, the rest know who you are.

The reality is Bev flamed out by her own actions and it's time to move on.

- Olbermann was clearly promoting Bev early on, and continued to promote her up until she threatened his staff with legal action.
- The DU Admins should have cut her off long ago, as soon as she threatened legal action on them. I've met Skinner and EarlG - they're both great folks and their good nature has been horrifically abused in this situation.
- She threatened legal action on DUers here - the same ones that have been donating to her - for using terms she has no trademark or legal claim to (which takes all of 2 minutes to look up online to see she has no rights to these terms, and 30 DUers to defend endlessly these dubious claims)
- The Admins at Bartcop gave her the heave-ho for similar behavior LAST YEAR (was she stressed then, too?)
- She dug her own grave storming LePore's retirement meeting. Birdies in Democratic Congressional offices tell me they're embarrassed about the whole event - LePore was already on her way out, and they thought there was clearly no need for this behavior. This 'legal service' was anything but; one party cannot serve another party legally. She's toast in DC as well as in the MSM AND in the bigger blogs and forums.
- She has a similar pattern of aggressive behavior towards others here, including legal threats to people who have previously helped her while she:

a) collects $60,000 salary from all of your donations
b) may collect up to $780,000 from the Qui Tam lawsuit in California
c) may collect royalties from the Votergate movie she is starring in
d) your donations are funding her expenses for all of this travel and events (whether legit or not)
e) you're probably even paying for her cel phone bill for her to legally threaten folks like Keith Olbermann.

And so we sit here, and bicker, and infight, and ignore the truths that sit right here in front of us. How pathetic are we?

I'm sick of the denial and parsing of words, i.e., "Bev didn't actually threaten legal action on KO; she just said she was going to talk to her lawyer."

Come on. This is bullshit.

The issue is NOT Bev Harris.
The issue is about voter fraud and corruption.
There are a lot of people working on this, and we need to keep our eye on the ball and keep on the cause. Lend your support to these folks.
The issue is not going to lose momentum or validity because Bev Harris is not the frontperson.

We need to move on.

[WillyT]

122. OK... But Move On How ???

I wish this had not happened, but it has.

And we do need to move on, but how do we deflect\avoid this major pot-hole while doing so?

And finally... if individual Americans are willing to put their blood, sweat, and tears into a cause (and I'm not just talking of Bev, but of all who helped in this cause, and all activists everywhere), how do we avoid this trap in the future???

If somebody gets a ball rolling, do we hinge our support (research, money, labor) on an anonymity agreement? IOW - They are asked to keep a low profile while the initial research and work is done, and then an agreed upon PR person is brought in?

I'm serious here. Just looking for ideas. Those who refuse to learn from their mistakes... and all that.

:shrug:

[demobabe]

126. You can't keep a repeat of this happening

I'm afraid to say.

There are always going to be these kinds of things that crop up now and again.

Take Bev herself: these boards have erupted in horrible flame wars over and over and over - she's shown her true colors several times here. She even got tombstoned once before.

But new supporters show up, and the same dynamic happens all over...

You just have to do the research to understand whom you are aligning with before you get involved. Education is the only answer.

[Kelvin Mace]

135. If I may inject a small tidbit of philosophy or two

The truth may set you free, but learning to recognize a lie for what it is will keep you out of bondage in the first place.

Skepticism will always serve you better than blind faith.

A lie is never the truth, no matter how many people believe it.

(c)1993 David N. Allen(tm). All Rights Reserved. No portion of these quotes may be used without the express permission of David N. Allen or the Commissioner of Baseball's third cousin.

Edit: typo

[WillyT]

140. LOL !!! - Good Thing I Know The Commissioner Of Baseball's Third Cousin !!

Twice removed of course.

:silly:

[KoKo]

114. BUT! If "Bev" is trashed where does the "Movement" Go? Where?

I know that David Allen (Plan Publishing 9) is out there and active he's appearing in my home state this week talking about "Voter Problems." I plan to go and shake his hand. But this is LOCAL...BEV was INTERNATIONAL!

If "Wired Mag" trashes her...then where does she go? If she's alienated everyone who will get the BBVoting Issue out then not only WHERE is BEV...BUT WHERE ARE WE?

When Repugs get hold of this...She's lost credibility. That makes many here "jump up and down with glee." BUT...what's left to fill the void by her leaving? :shrug:

[Kelvin Mace]

123. The anti-BBV movement is international

Thanks to our (and by "our" I mean everyone from Bev down to the Swarthmore students who raised Hell with Diebold and spit on their DMCA abuses), the movement is alive and well. Ireland put a halt on BBV until rigid auditing standards could be etsablished. Canada has fought to keep the damned things out as well. Nevada went to paper baloots on their DREs. California decertified and humuliated Diebold. And while Maryland still bought the damned things, pressure on the state resulted in TWO separate reports which ar the HARD evidence to ban the machines country-wide.

I just got an invitation to the Hellenic Conference on Electronic Voting (and while they would love to have me, they have no funds to fly me out, alas).

NC appointed a Select Committee to study and draft legislation for the General Assembly and the committee and the voters are looking for paper.

VerifiedVoting.org and VoteWatch.us are hard at work on the issue, as are dozens of other smaller groups.

It is not all about Bev and it hasn't been for some time. While she's been getting all the press, other people have been doing the real work.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

(thanks for the compliment)

[KoKo]

129. Yes...I know you will be here in NC...I have the info on that...looking

forward to meeting you...:D Really...I'm on the "List" and you are there! I will come up to you and say: Hey, David, I'm KoKo01 from DU!

And I'll watch as the folks around me give the the "stare." Looking forward to the Forum..and thanks for doing this to get the word out...
Really...although my post sounds a little sarcastic..I know..sorry.

[Kelvin Mace]

131. I look forward to seeing you there

Hopefully we will have a good crowd.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

179. jealous ?-->

"While she's been getting all the press, other people have been doing the real work."
... snivel...
She held the floor and now she's down.
happy?

damn I'm amazed at this group that's bitter because they apparently feel short changed in the publicity dept.

bi---tter

I have nothing to do with either side but I have read these posts.

may you get the publicity you feel you deserve.

[Kelvin Mace]

205. Folks

The new "talking point" from Bev Central has obviously arrived.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[symbolman]

139. Curiously enough

I LIKE going on TV and arguing with right wingers, and curiously enough my site has a film about Electronic Voting and Voter's RIghts being sold as a Premium on Buzzflash Right now..

I don't claim to know everything about the subject, but we talked to a WHOLE lot of people about all this..

Why does there have to be ONE spokesperson on this? There are plenty of us and we all have a little piece of this pie on our plate, together we can go after these bastards - each with their area of expertise..

It's easier for them to knock down a single target than a group of people with torches and pitchforks that won't shut up and refuse to go away..

Let's ALL be leaders..

works for me, and when I promote our movie I'll be once again, like I always try to do, mentioning the DU as a vast resource with many great minds..

I might be calling on David Allen for backup if I don't know something -- or Eloriel, or any number of people.. we're like the people that were BOOKS in the original Farenheit movie -- we ALL hold a piece of this puzzle..

get to work, call each other, learn more and speak up - you don't need a single leader --

[WillyT]

142. And THAT... Might Be The Most Important Lesson We Learn From This !!!

Right on symbolman!!!

:kick:

[KoKo]

149. And, Symbolman's point is well taken...but he's TAKE BACK THE MEDIA

in our minds. And, I've passed his site on to the very same RW Folks and "Friends" BUT...it was the Voting issue that placed doubt in the RWingers minds...and set them up to be on "our side" this time. They don't see the "Take Back the Media" Movement as having anything to do with Voting. That's the problem...Those of us who have managed to convert folks because of the machines...

As much as I understand why TBM's Symbolman & Stanger, just like Skinner have felt "used by Bev" or found her so difficult to deal with that they could no longer be associated with her (Hey who needs threats of lawsuits when you are counting your pennies to keep the web site up) but the fact is that if this goes all over the Media...we look really bad..

There wasn't any solution which could have saved it, though. She was what she is.. But it's really unfortunate... Maybe she will find a home with the Freeps...that would be even worse, but she had her chances...

I just hate to see it disrupt us more..:shrug:

[robbedvoter]

150. Amen - and my respect and admiration for all of you which achieved

proeminence by following your passion for the truth - and there are many here who fit that bill. And for all the respect and admiration I have for each of you, my allegiance will always be to the truth first.

[americanstranger]

147. With all due respect,

You're tying the fate of the voting machine issue to the fate of Bev Harris.

There was lots of fine work being done by people not named Bev Harris before she came along, and there is fine work being done by people not named Bev Harris today.

The work will continue. Like Demobabe said, this issue is not going away just because DU banned Bev Harris.

There are threads in other forums here with lists of organizations who are working on this, independent of Bev Harris. And many of them were working on it long before Bev nosed in.

This issue is bigger than any one person. You should, with all due respect, calm down and take a look around. There is much, much more to BBV than Bev Harris.

-as

[Cookie wookie]

195. KoKo01, I'm late posting this so it may be superfluous

but even though Harris has been out front publicly on the issue there are many other activists who have been working on the issue who are also out front and v. credible. David Dill and Avi Rubin are two. Send your Republican friends that you've been working on to http://www.verifiedvoting.com. It's a great site. Have them check out all the IT professionals and others who have signed the "Resolution on Electronic Voting" at that site. Under "Technologists" there are now 2003 (as of now) endorsers including engineers, computer science professors, IT security professionals etc etc from universities across the country including Cornell, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Johns Hopkins and businesses like Microsoft and Sun Microsystems.

There are activists all across the country who have been working hard on the blackbox voting issue for years now. Here in Georgia we have one activist who has been featured on Nightline, Air America radio, and quoted in numerous articles in high profile publications, although this person likes to stay in the background. She has dedicated her life to the issue in an incredibly altruistic way. So have many more people.

Take heart! We've come far with getting the issue into the public light that problems with one activist will not derail the movement. Certainly in the early days it was a concern, but not any more. We are right about paperless/privitized voting systems being a threat to democracy and in the end we will win out.

As far as the Votergate.tv film, The producers are fine men who also have been dedicated to the issue. Harris is highlighted in the short film as a thematic device, but that doesn't diminish the truth of the concerns that the film addresses.

[KoKo]

206. Good points and what you say is true. I was only concerned at the

trashing of one of the most visible in the issue. I just felt alot of it is OTT to go on and on thread after thread. It begins to sound vindictive.

I understand that there are many others working on this issue who are still contributing in a reasoned and responsible manner. And, it's Bev's own reactions which hurt her credibility. She has herself to blame. But, the "piling on" is worrysome in that some folks who probably want the whole E-Voting issue to die pick up on this and use it for their own purposes here on DU keeping the issue inflamed.

Thanks for the reminder that the work is ongoing.

[robbedvoter]

136. Freepers good, DU bad:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2&forum=DCForumID4410&omm=8&viewmode=threaded
8. "Please do not bash 'freepers' -- here's why"
In response to message #7
that is a term that comes from Free Republic, a political forum. Free Republic has had some outstanding discussions on voting machine integrity in the past. I have gotten some good consultation from "freepers."
We are nonpartisan. Everyone who's not a criminal wants clean elections. One of our board members, Jim March, has done some fantastic work on this issue, and I guess you'd describe him as a "freeper" -- he's a gun lobbyist who supports George Bush.
You may be very surprised at who's in our corner on this issue. In fact, George Bush ordered my book, had it overnighted.
Thanks.
Bev
also, her reps badmouthing DU al over - here - on a Malloy board say some of us need to shut up - while all freepers are desirable:


That means we want support from right wingers, and we want left-wingers who don't support greater voting rights to keep their mouths shut on the issue.
http://mikemalloy.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=138511#138511

[peacetalksforall]

144. This stuff is over the top. People here are hell bent on bringing her

down and worse.

Why not just face the facts - some of you have split with her - why not write about the work your're doing and quit throwing the trash.

There is no problem in splitting off with some and going on to do equally important work. This crap would make me just as angry if it were done to someone else here. Not only are you accusing her of being psycho, you are accusing her of theft. Never have I heard this kind of attack on any member.

Please. It would be adult to make your case about her theft and your loss off list.

I have no investment in Bev Harris more than my birthright to vote.

I think all this piling on and e-stoning is cruel, crappy, careless, and destructive to the cause.

The relentless trashing is as sick as she is proclaimed to be by a few.

I will be the first to say I was wrong if it proves out that she is a Republican, as accused of being here.

[symbolman]

146. I'll shut up

when she quits lying.

How's that for a deal?

[Kelvin Mace]

148. Not my opinion

I will be the first to say I was wrong if it proves out that she is a Republican, as accused of being here.

I don't think she is a Republican, or a Dem, or a Klingon for that matter. I think she believes every thing she says when she says it, and every contradiction of what she says when she contradicts herself and her inability to see that she has contradicted herself.

I do not think she is a fraud as some do. She thinks she's a hero. She thinks her work deserves the Pulitzer prize. She thinks George Bush ordered her book. She thinks freepers are her friends, even though she thought they were her enemies before. And, by the way she never said they were her enemies and she'll sue anyone who says she did.

Some like to point out that their are two sides to every story, but with Bev there can be a half dozen sides, all equally true and all equally false. At the same time.

Other than irrational outbursts of inappropriate anger and the habit of burning all her bridges (while her allies are still on them), Bev is a fine human being.

She is just not the person we need leading this movement.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[DownNotOut]

154. Whether it was

'freeper infiltrators' or just your regular ole' DU posters... Bev was eaten alive on this site. Personality flaws aside, I have a hard time feeling bad for her because she tried to use DU as her own personal judge and jury and it simply backfired on her. Some were sympathetic but most were not.

You played right on it and seem to have been able to save some face to this point. Though, Id advise you to be aware that your decision making ability is just about as suspect because you continue to try to use DU in the exact same way that Bev did.

Though, as a final thought, Id sure like to see Bevs work persist. So, regardless of whether or not she is the poster child for BBV and 'owns' the rights to the name and all that BS.... the work is important and can benefit from Bevs voice and any one else that wants to get involved. Again, regardless of their personality flaws.

I don't come to DU seeking tolerance. Its not what this site is about.

DownNotOut

[yowzayowzayowza]

155. That, sir, is indeed a statement of...

higher class ... plus or minus a 'Rovian' yardstick er two.

I hope Bev's FOIA mountain includes a tidbit that will illuminate the BBV issue succinctly and earn her that Pulitzer. I still look forward to her reports on same.

In any event, I appreciate her passion and dedication on the BBV issue to date. During the early BBV exploration on DU her relentless research and enthusiastic collation was downright infectious; a fine example of some of DUz finest mojo.

Though I missed most of the threads that caused it, she returned from the last banning re-energized, motivated and focused. Perhaps the current situation will help her focus this time as well. I have to agree, however, that she should never have been allowed to return without some obvious resolution to the original problems. DU admin & modz have been EXTREMELY patient with her.

[ldf]

151. my response exactly

so glad to know that i'm now part of the "i hate bev" club.

well, count me out. i thank her for all the hard work she has done. she got the ball rolling. she had a lot of help, but she was the focal point.

and i do detect the absolute delight in the tone of the posters on this thread.

i do not know all the behind the scenes actions, but i DO know that some of the representations on this thread are a joke.

again, you can count me out. du is lesser due to this action

my only response can be :cry:

[KatieB]

163. She is trying to protect our vote -- are YOU?

[Kelvin Mace]

164. Yes.

I, and many other people are doing just that. We just don't have camera crews following is around.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

173. camera crews ?

Why bring the "camera crews" into this?
you say "We just don't have camera crews following is around."

They shot documented play by play--Bernie Ward loved it(kgo radio)--she was catching them red handed swapping out the vote tally sheets!! I was GREAT!!Bernie even admitted on his show that if he hadn't seen it for himself he'd have never believed it !
BEV WAS BUSTING CROOKS basically.
and you seem to think she's a "crook"
---- funny

Is jealousy possibly an issue in your position on the Bev thing?
Nothing personal against you, --- just an observers point of view.

Aside from that comment about camera crews, I also noticed you like to post your actual name as a signature.
(most people don't)

[Forkboy]

197. Is idol worship possibly an issue in your position on the Bev thing?

Nothing personal against you, --- just an observers point of view.

[Kelvin Mace]

202. amazing the twisting that goes on

Please show me where I have called Bev a crook.

In fact, I have said quite the opposite on this thread.

Also, what *evidence* do you present that these folks were "swapping out the tally sheets". That sounds like a crime, something that should be reported to the police or perhaps shown on a national news program.

I post under my real name and always have because I don't hide behind an alias so I can attack people without fear of being required to to account for my words.

You should try it some times.

Jealous of Bev? Puh-leaze.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[ElsewheresDaughter]

216. i think that your post may have a ring of truth to it night tripper...

Bev has done a good thing! IMHO

[demobabe]

170. This is a fallacy

Because she does something you perceive as good or noble does not excuse her other behavior.

Here's the same exact argument... by your logic, I assume you agree with it:

George Bush is protecting us from the terrorists -- are YOU?

[Forkboy]

171. Kick....I'd love to see KB's answer

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

174. how bout my answer

---has nothing to do with that analogy that "Bush is protecting us are you"--
---less than "clever" comment

if this were about musicians it'd be more like saying:
her "band" was on T.V. was yours?
and you'd get pissed because your band sucks!


Basically, she's famous (for a valiant effort) and obviously some of you feel it's undeserved.

what everrrrr

[Forkboy]

175. Nah,I'd prefer KB's answer

yours is inane.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

176. inane ?? what's that mean?

I got yer goat?

[Forkboy]

177. If you have my goat I wish you'd return it

:crazy:

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

180. returned

:eyes::crazy::eyes::crazy::eyes::crazy::eyes::crazy::eyes::crazy::eyes::crazy::eyes::crazy:

[Forkboy]

186. oh no...I've been out emoticonned

you sure put me in my place tonight!

[americanstranger]

181. Famous?

Not quite.

And since you brought up the subject of bands - I know plenty of talented musicians who killed their chances with record companies due to the fact that they were such complete assholes that nobody wanted to deal with the bullshit.

That's closer to it, IMO.

-as

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

183. your opinion

see you and raise you-

There are also alot of musicians who had every right to be assholes when dealing with certain types...and it didn't hurt their success.

that's even closer to it!

:eyes:

[americanstranger]

185. Depends who the 'certain types' are, actually.

Hell, I'm a musician who's been an asshole to 'certain types.' It's part of the job.

But I knew never to be an asshole to the guy who pays you - because he might decide not to pay you.

Be an asshole to the wrong people, and you're over. That, in a nutshell, is why Bev got banned.

She was an asshole to the wrong people (the DU admins).

-as

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

182. Yeah it's over the top--a few individuals talking alot of trash about her

E-stoning

My theory is that it's because of some sort of jealousy issue.

[demobabe]

198. Let's see...

Go back and read my posting #101 on this thread. It directly addresses some of the issues you bring up.

[Walt Starr]

213. Ms. Harris brought HERSELF down

And now her sycophants are trying to place blame elsewhere.

It reminds me of how the bush administration acts.

[brentspeak]

152. I can't help but think of Bill Bartlett when I read about Bev Harris

Both "took up" legitimate issues that had been raised against Bush; both became prominent spokespeople on these issues; both ended up being total whack jobs/completely unreliable.

The result of Bartlett's involvement is that any subsequent research into Bush's Nat'l Guard service will seem like tin-foil-hat journalism -- EVEN IF THE RESEARCH IS ACCURATE!

Is that what's going to happen re. black box voting?

[peacetalksforall]

157. Important correction

Bill Burkett...

Bartlett and Allbaugh, one or both, may have been the ones who appeared in the ANG office prior to Bush running for Gov to 'arrange for the disposal' of Bush's ANG records....according to the story that Burkett told. I can't remember if he named one, he may have said communications assistant or something similar - 'communcations' is what Bartlett and Allbaugh have done or are still doing for Bush.

[brentspeak]

162. Thanks for the correction -- my bad (n/t)

[Mr_Spock]

160. Hmmm, they only barred her head though.

Perhaps she could re-register using her torso as collateral!

[AmerDem]

222. don't quit your day job

[Emillereid]

172. I wonder if banning Bev is good for DU -- I was proudly wearing

my DU t-shirt at a gathering last night to hear and meet Michael Moore and was pounced upon several times by people blasting DU for banning Bev. Personally I haven't been involved with the whole debate about her -- and I confess I was taken aback by the virulence of their feelings on the matter. Seemed DU was perceived as a restrictive, cliquish forum not really open to other points of view. The upshot is that it seems to have given us bad press.

On a lighter note -- Michael was great and he noticed the shirt and gave me a positive, thumbs up sign and told me he reads DU and was aware of some of the posts about him.

[Pachamama]

193. Emillereid - your not a local Duer here in Marin County by any chance?

I was at the Rafael Theater in San Rafael Saturday Night to see Michael Moore and a special showing of F 9/11....

:hi:

People blasted you about the DU banning Bev? Hmmm....I know this thread is discussing her, but I can't imagine that the only association people have with DU is Bev Harris...

In any case, good for you wearing your DU shirt and regarding the Bev Harris "story" here being discussed....it's yesterday's story and if we are all smart, we will focus on the "Real Story" and not make her the story....Regardless of people's motivation to diss or support her (or like me, just wonder what all the drama is about, from her side and others) its time we all move on to the real issue - making sure fraud with BBV doesn't steal our democracy...

[Emillereid]

218. No, I'm not in Marin County. I met Michael at a private house

in Los Angeles.

Obviously the crowd was all democrats. I was taken aback at the fervor with which some of the people had to DU banning Bev. She definitely is a hero to many people.

Like you I haven't been involved with the Bev story -- I just hated experiencing such negativity toward DU because of the Bev stuff and wondered out loud if banning her was such a good idea especially if DU gets a bad rep from it.

[Kelvin Mace]

221. I'm sure DU will get

"a bad rep" from it. Bev will add DU to the list of people she has already libeled/is libeling.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Swamp Rat]

187. Time to move on...

We have bigger fish to fry.

[Pachamama]

189. MoveOn from having Bev be the story...the story needs to be the issue of

the problems related to computer voting machines with no paper trail, investigating the problems with these machines in this last election and ensuring that it NEVER happens again and that this problem is stopped, fixed and democracy protected.

The problem, in my opinion on the subject at hand is that well-intentioned people (including all on the DU and across the country and ofcourse Bev herself) all started out on this whole topic and journey to do right by democracy. The problem is when the players (in this particular case Bev) become wrapped up in their own "drama" and the story no longer is the issue of the computer voting machines (BBV) but rather that Bev herself was becoming the "story". I have no idea what her personal dramas are and I and many have witnessed them and some of her antics on this forum happen. I think the bottom line is that Bev became the story and the reality is she isn't the story. We need to moveon and focus on the real story and make sure its not lost.

Ironically, Bev in her drama of what seems to be a need to have herself "be the story" is still getting to have it happen by the drama playing itself out in the media, whether it be on Olbermann's blog, her constant "changing" stories, the article in Wired magazine or our thread's here on the DU. The reality is that as long as we keep this thing going, "BEV" is the story and not the more important story which is the BBV issue.

I suggest we all focus on the real story. And quite frankly, while I appreciate the efforts Bev has done, I think its time for the "Drama" to stop. Bev, this is not about you, and if you truly care about our democracy and the cause, keep up "investigating" and putting out your requests, but stop the drama, stop publicizing your antics and instead do what you should have been doing all along which is focus on investigating and provide that info to those that can make it happen. Try keeping your personal antics and opinions out of the news and make democracy the most important issue, not your "movie" or you being the "story". Actions speak louder than words.

And the same holds true for the rest of us here on the DU...I suggest we don't even give any "time" or mention to Bev...Ohio certified the votes today and now the recounts begin. The GAO is investigating and the story is getting more and more mention. Keep on this story. Keep investigating (those that are). Keep calling your elected representatives. Keep writing letters to your papers. Keep mentioning it to the clerk in the line at the Supermarket and neighbors & strangers a like. Keep on the REAL STORY folks....

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

190. Bev who?

2 papers down and 4 to go... thought I'd take a break and check out DU. :P

The Bev Harris debacle is so yesterday. Time to move on to the issues at hand. Time to forget about the he said/she said crap. We waste our time and do Rove's work for him when we get bogged down with gossip about individuals.

:hi: How's Pachababy? Still got a cold?

[Pachamama]

192. Don't know....

....who this Bev character is.... :hi: And don't care.... :eyes:

Oi Swamp Rodent... You got it rat friend....time for more important things...keep the eye on the ball....

Speaking of which - how are your studies going? Hope you got to finish some of the deadlines you had...It's December...must be Finals time, eh? So what are the exciting topics of your papers?

Pachababy is doing better...she's asleep right now...but now Pachamama has the cold and I'm sipping some tea, listening to a very windy storm outside as it pours rain outside (1st big rain storm of the winter season here in Northern California's Bay Area) and I'm doing my DU'ing and catching up on world events.... :hi:

[loudsue]

191. Dire Straits: "Solid Rock" (lyrics) 'When you point your finger 'cause

your plans fell through,
you've got three more fingers,
pointin' back at YOU!'

Since the "Let's Stone Bev Harris Into Oblivion" threads, it seems Bev has become the scape-goat du jour on DU. I have seen a few posters link some very flammable threads that showed the WORST examples of DUers disagreements with Bev, and her attacks toward them.

Glaringly conspicuous by their absence, are the dozens, if not hundreds of threads from the past 4 years, that show where Bev told THE TRUTH!

The TRUTH about Diebold, and the research her 'team' had done, and what they had uncovered...TRUTH that swayed the Atty. General and Sec. of State of California to FOCUS on the criminality of Diebold in California. TRUTH that exposed the how and where of the voting manipulation/deception that was prevailing in our election system.

Why doesn't anyone link to all the threads where she helped direct everyone's attention and focus to R. Doug Lewis, and his unelected monopoly on the elections in the U.S.? Bev always gave kudos and thanks to the other researchers that were doing the deep work on those threads, openly admitting that others were better at it than her...giving credit where credit was due. She also took one helluva lot of bashing from a few posters whose e-names I won't mention, all along the way...and she handled it fairly well, at first, and even after I was more than sick of it.

Bev Harris, many here have forgotten, is also the one who had the charisma, leadership, enthusiasm, 'balls', focus....call it all what you will... but she got the ENERGY behind the issue of Black Box Voting. There were several other groups who were working on the issue, yes, and they were and are doing great work! But Bev was able to GET ON TELEVISION, GET ON THE RADIO, GET IN THE NEWSPAPERS....riding on her trusty steed through the airwaves of America yelling "THE DIEBOLDS ARE COMING!! THE DIEBOLDS ARE COMING!!"

David, Symbolman, AmericanStranger, Eloriel, Maddy...and all the rest that took a hit to the jaws....I really am sorry you got cold-cocked. You all have done nice work, as well. And I hope we never see the day on DU when any of YOU become the scape-goat du jour.

Remember Ewing? And IndianaGreen? In fact, I even believe someone like AmericanStranger or BPilgrim, or one of the other stellar old-timers got banned...can't remember who all got axed at that same time! Remember that, old timers?

The difference is....Bev was out there in THE REAL WORLD...not just slinging shit around on DU, but going from Washington, to California to DC, to Florida, to Maryland, to Texas, to Ohio...AND PUBLICLY RAISING HELL THE WHOLE WAY!!

Maybe she didn't always tell EVERYTHING, or always tell everything straight! Maybe she has enough of the 'showman' in her that she drew the attention to herself, while the researchers remained safely at home behind their monitors. It takes BOTH, you know.

Maybe she didn't always ACT or RE-ACT just the way the Virgin Mary or Mother Theresa would have done. Maybe she holds a grudge! (oooo! scary!!) Maybe she's PARANOID! (I SURE AS HELL would be paranoid if I was taking on the kind of power structures she's taken on, with HER OWN FACE out front...not always hiding behind, or within, a 'group' or 'organization'!)

I'm just sayin'..... How 'bout some <due>diligent DUer going through the archives and providing links to the OTHER 90 or 100 threads that are ALSO indicative of the actions of Bev Harris, rather than just the 8 or 10 threads that are totally incriminating?

Pointing to the book, BBV, has made thousands of people around the world, and not just on the internet, familiar with the electoral problems we have. Bev lent her face and name to that. And it was OBVIOUSLY to her own peril, as I can see by the lynch-mob mentality that has arisen since her banning from DU. Any money I have given in response to her work was more than well spent, and hardly begins to compensate her for the execution she has endured here.

Did I know Bev was emotionally volatile all along? OF COURSE I DID!! Any first grader could have gleaned that small detail from her first few threads! I'm sorry that the people who got burned ... got burned! She didn't hide any part of that! EVER!! It was right out in the open! Did that make HER the bad guy? Nope! She is a fiery woman. Adults should understand how to deal with fiery people. If you don't like to play with them, then don't! But if you see their value, and are willing to step up to the plate, then adults should KNOW THE DAMN RULES IN DEALING WITH THEM!! They often, like Bev, have a great deal to offer...not just you, but society, and the world! With a GREAT MANY powerful people, there is a price to pay in the relationship. You just have to decide if it's worth it to you, or not.

So, is all this 'stoning of Bev' justified if she's "become a freeper"? Gimme a break on the scarlet letter theme. She has said from the VERY BEGINNING that this is a BIPARTISAN issue to her, and Dem. Secy of State of Georgia Cathy Cox has been one of her major targets since the 2002 midterms.

Is Bev's day in the sun past? Who knows! That's up to her, and how she recruits and works with her contacts and researchers. SOME of her methods may suck. SOME of her methods HAVE BEEN very successful in getting the word out, and getting some very important questions asked publicly. Is smearing her reputation good FOR THE COUNTRY? I sure as hell don't think so. Is smearing her reputation and continually slamming her on a web site where she can't come defend herself the new kewl thing to do? Actually, it's been making me sick, and I am appalled at the play-ground mentality I've seen here since she got banned. Are the ones throwing stones memories so damn short that you can't see the good that she did, along with the things you don't agree with, or that hurt you?

Maybe if we start adding links to the other 90 or 100 threads where she got people working together, focusing on the important arms of the octopus, following the lines of thought that helped frame the entire issue, introducing concepts in a way that engaged and motivated people....maybe THEN we can have a more balanced discussion of the woman who is getting executed here.

How many times have I heard someone lamenting that "Bev Harris USED DU?? Has it ever occurred to anyone that WE USED BEV HARRIS, as well? We used HER name to get the word out about BBV, we sent e-mails all across the world with HER NAME on the topic to show what SHE had written, or what SHE had discovered. How many sent e-mails to all the foreign and domestic press, or our congress critters saying "I did this research and clearly show that...."? No. We cited Bev.

I sent her money because I was using HER! HER time, HER trips through the airports, HER web site as a reference, HER book as a reference, citing HER push for lawsuits against Diebold in California, HER efforts to stop Diebold EVEN IN THEIR HOME STATE OF OHIO... And by USING her, I educated one helluva lot of people about the BBV issue BEFORE the election.

As for putting the 'rubber to the road', the only other person on DU I've seen do as much publicly, in the years I've been here, is Will Pitt. When someone has the courage to stick their necks out FOR REAL, IN PUBLIC, it seems there's always someone around who's willing to try to chop it off. It's easy to tell who is ACTING in the NATIONAL (not "local") public arena, and who is "chopping" in the privacy of their computer.

Chopping's cheap.

:kick::kick::kick:

[yowzayowzayowza]

194. Call.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2564408

I agree with you on one thing: enuf already. Pretty please?

[loudsue]

200. Bev & Andy called it just like it happened...

Thanks for re-posting that thread; I remember reading it at the time. Once again, it made me sick to see the detractors trying to throw the discussion off track.

We LOST THE ELECTION DUE TO FRAUD!! NOT due to Bev's Qui Tam lawsuit, for crying out loud.

What a waste!

[frustrated_lefty]

199. Miss ya' Bev. :(

I only pop in here occasionally these days, so missed the tussle. Anyway, best wishes and *hugs*.

[Jose Diablo]

201. I find something troubling about the object in this thread

What troubles me was the plea to NOT file Qua Tam way back when the many researchers on DU were opening the mysteries surrounding the election in '02.

Then we find out much later that the one supposedly spearheading the research actually did file Qua Tam, thus cashing in on the profitability offered from the knowledge that all was not well with certain purchasing of the electronic voting machines by the various states. That it looked like there was fraudulent behavior and maybe illegal profit on the part of the companies and those responsible for the purchasing decisions.

Now, I am not against someone profiting from 'blowing the whistle' on irregularities in state purchasing decisions, however I am concerned about the effect on timing and how court records are sealed until determinations are made for the status of Qua Tam litigation. Specifically, did the Qua Tam take valuable information out of the public domain and effectively silence public discourse on the topic of voting irregularities. Thus allowing yet another election to be stolen because someone wanted the credit and the money.

Sometimes I think the object of this story becomes far too protective of information that now has been copy written, but yet then was far from owned by any one single source. I also object to what I perceive is grandstanding by this one individual at the expense of our voting rights. If this had truly been a 'team effort' and remained a 'team effort' I cannot help but think old Wally would now be picking up trash on the side of some highway rather than attending gala events of the wealthy within our society. And who do we have to thank for Wally's ability to get away with what has been done?

Think about it. A lot of talk but I haven't heard diddly squat about how this fraudulent election will be stopped or reversed. For now there is no time.

We, the American people, have been fucked yet again, even when the information was out there.

As far as I am concerned, she can stay banned.

[phasev]

211. Bush's cousin

Remember that Bev is Dubya's cousin so you shouldn't be surprised if she turned out to be a nutjob.

[Kelvin Mace]

219. Uh, no,

she's not. Don't know where THAT rumors coming from.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[NashVegas]

227. Wheeeeeeee! Drama!

Welcome to the online world.