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Reply #63: Your quote has zero to do with your assertion. [View All]

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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Your quote has zero to do with your assertion.
C'mon, you can do better than that.
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  -Social Security: the little secret that's fooling even most DUers. MannyGoldstein  Apr-20-11 07:10 PM   #0 
  - $tarting in 2011, 79 million boomer$ turn 65 and exit for-profit in$urance  leftstreet   Apr-20-11 07:15 PM   #1 
  - VERY interesting point! nt  Snoutport   Apr-20-11 07:21 PM   #7 
  - Not to worry! Rep. Ryan is working on privatizing Medicare so that his  madinmaryland   Apr-20-11 07:29 PM   #12 
  - off subject  mountainlion55   Apr-20-11 08:40 PM   #59 
  - Welcome to DU!!  madinmaryland   Apr-20-11 09:12 PM   #78 
  - I thought all legislation had to be passed by both houses and  INdemo   Apr-21-11 01:18 PM   #191 
  - i started mine at 62.....medicare next january!  madrchsod   Apr-20-11 08:46 PM   #66 
  - Never really considered that point.  Enthusiast   Apr-21-11 03:48 AM   #108 
  - I brought this up long ago. Health insurance reform  RegieRocker   Apr-21-11 07:58 AM   #133 
  - Not all of them will retire. Not all of them will be alive.  LiberalFighter   Apr-21-11 08:51 AM   #142 
  - That's it.  yardwork   Apr-21-11 11:36 AM   #172 
  - NOT ALL of those insurance premiums will be lost. Many of us will buy  bertman   Apr-21-11 11:56 AM   #179 
  - Yes. Seniors still have to have supplemental insurance and pay  northoftheborder   Apr-21-11 01:23 PM   #193 
  - But many of us who had much higher deductibles and co-pays  quiller4   Apr-22-11 09:51 PM   #234 
     - The only problem with that is the 20% copay on open heart surgery  bertman   Apr-23-11 11:45 AM   #236 
  - Hotdamn! Vitally important info leftsteet, thanks.  goodnews   Apr-22-11 09:49 AM   #229 
  - Great research  senseandsensibility   Apr-20-11 07:18 PM   #2 
  - Thanks. I spent a long time on it.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 07:28 PM   #11 
     - Do you read Bruce Webb (Angry Bear Blog?) He says basically the same thing. Rec!  jtown1123   Apr-21-11 08:34 AM   #136 
        - No, but it sounds like I should.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-21-11 06:59 PM   #221 
  - Hey, thanks! I teach economics, and we begin on social programs the  plumbob   Apr-20-11 07:18 PM   #3 
  - Cool! I referenced everything.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 07:20 PM   #5 
  - I'm happy to K&R! Thank you.  CaliforniaPeggy   Apr-20-11 07:19 PM   #4 
  - K&R  SammyWinstonJack   Apr-20-11 07:21 PM   #6 
  - kr important stuff!  Snoutport   Apr-20-11 07:21 PM   #8 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Apr-20-11 07:22 PM   #9 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-20-11 07:25 PM   #10 
  - I first saw reporting of this in 1994. Please, please please help it get out of the ghetto.  JHB   Apr-20-11 07:29 PM   #13 
  - They are doing a good calculation, but using it incorrectly  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 07:35 PM   #16 
     - All Obama has said is remove the cap...  SkyDaddy7   Apr-21-11 05:50 AM   #117 
        - Obama appointed a commission that could only have been designed to recommend deep cuts  MannyGoldstein   Apr-21-11 06:39 AM   #120 
  - You are exactly right.  Lasher   Apr-20-11 07:33 PM   #14 
  - So you don't have a problem with our kids kids paying 80% income tax on minimal earnings? NT  benboot   Apr-20-11 07:35 PM   #15 
     - I think you have an English comprehension problem  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 07:36 PM   #17 
     - Stop being willfully obtuse.  Ikonoklast   Apr-20-11 07:40 PM   #18 
     - So far it appears I am the smarter one. NT  benboot   Apr-20-11 07:49 PM   #22 
     - benboot, so far you have not explained how you would provide for  JDPriestly   Apr-21-11 09:19 AM   #145 
        - I'm afraid benboot cannot answer.  Lasher   Apr-21-11 11:33 AM   #171 
           - Thank you Mods... A flood of them this week. Must be lonely over in Freeperville.  freshwest   Apr-21-11 03:54 PM   #204 
     - think it makes him look like a freeper  lark   Apr-21-11 12:21 PM   #185 
     - What a silly argument, completely pulled out of your ass.  Lasher   Apr-20-11 07:49 PM   #21 
     - Obviously you are a stealth Republican.  Enthusiast   Apr-21-11 03:57 AM   #111 
     - The mods seem to agree with you.  Lasher   Apr-21-11 11:44 AM   #176 
        - I'm glad to hear it......nt  Enthusiast   Apr-21-11 01:35 PM   #195 
     - It's better than our kids having to take care of their mom who has Alzeheimers  JDPriestly   Apr-21-11 09:15 AM   #144 
     - Where'd you get that?  yardwork   Apr-21-11 11:38 AM   #173 
  - "So, unless the US economy is about to get even worse than today and stay that way,  ProSense   Apr-20-11 07:46 PM   #19 
  - Whose lifetimes: anyone that will die in the next 75 years.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 07:52 PM   #23 
  - Let's say your projection  ProSense   Apr-20-11 07:59 PM   #28 
  - The moment we say there's a problem, benefits will be gutted  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:01 PM   #29 
  - "The moment we say there's a problem" So  ProSense   Apr-20-11 08:09 PM   #36 
     - I'm not pushing anything. Reality is reality.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:19 PM   #45 
     - Um  ProSense   Apr-20-11 08:28 PM   #51 
        - "Under the intermediate assumptions"  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:35 PM   #55 
        - Um  ProSense   Apr-20-11 08:41 PM   #60 
           - Your quote has zero to do with your assertion.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:44 PM   #63 
              - Your claim  ProSense   Apr-20-11 08:45 PM   #64 
                 - Then prove it. I posted referenced numbers.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:47 PM   #68 
                    - Start  ProSense   Apr-20-11 08:54 PM   #73 
                       - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-20-11 08:56 PM   #74 
                       - Wow, you just went back in a circle  ThomCat   Apr-21-11 01:00 AM   #98 
                       - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-21-11 07:12 AM   #123 
        - They also use millions in SS money to destroy low income families  mntleo2   Apr-21-11 12:13 PM   #183 
     - +1  stockholmer   Apr-21-11 07:40 AM   #127 
  - If that happened, the time to raise the cap is in 26 years. Not now. there's already  Hannah Bell   Apr-21-11 03:31 AM   #103 
     - Raise the cap now  ProSense   Apr-21-11 03:21 PM   #202 
  - Manny, don't forget to ask those who criticize Social Security  JDPriestly   Apr-21-11 09:20 AM   #146 
     - Rightwingers have always wanted to destroy Social Security (and later medicare)  Mimosa   Apr-21-11 04:43 PM   #207 
  - This poster is good with the cap being removed. But.  bluestate10   Apr-20-11 08:03 PM   #30 
  - Right. The relatively small savings from means testing...  JHB   Apr-20-11 08:09 PM   #37 
  - Agree  lark   Apr-21-11 12:32 PM   #187 
  - Wrong.  ProSense   Apr-20-11 08:18 PM   #42 
     - Payouts should match payin. The inequity is the very reason why  bluestate10   Apr-20-11 09:11 PM   #77 
        - I do not like your idea at all.  JDPriestly   Apr-21-11 09:24 AM   #147 
           - Miss. I have respect for your posts, but respectfully disagree.  bluestate10   Apr-21-11 05:33 PM   #213 
  - Scrap the cap!  grahamhgreen   Apr-21-11 01:01 AM   #99 
  - High income WORKERS are not "protected". They pay SS up to the limit.  Hannah Bell   Apr-21-11 03:38 AM   #104 
     - High income workers only pay Social Security tax on maybe the  JDPriestly   Apr-21-11 09:26 AM   #148 
     - Nonetheless, the CEO whose direct compensation is a 2.4 million  RaleighNCDUer   Apr-21-11 09:31 AM   #149 
        - Social Security was set up to tax 90% of *total* covered wages.  Hannah Bell   Apr-21-11 11:54 AM   #178 
           - Thanks for the link -  RaleighNCDUer   Apr-21-11 12:18 PM   #184 
  - strategy  Locrian   Apr-20-11 07:48 PM   #20 
  - Absolutely correct.  TheKentuckian   Apr-20-11 07:56 PM   #25 
  - Republicans have no intention of killing SS or Medicare.  bluestate10   Apr-20-11 08:08 PM   #34 
  - + 1,000  SpiralHawk   Apr-21-11 05:19 PM   #212 
  - This is a good assumption  Yo_Mama   Apr-20-11 07:55 PM   #24 
  - So you're saying that growth is about to plummet?  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 07:59 PM   #27 
  - It's happening.  Yo_Mama   Apr-20-11 09:03 PM   #76 
  - Thank you for a well-researched post  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 11:17 PM   #92 
  - "If we raise taxes...we lower the nominal and real growth rate" = bullshit.  Hannah Bell   Apr-21-11 03:46 AM   #106 
  - We need to end War! War! War! and hike taxes on the well off  MannyGoldstein   Apr-21-11 07:22 AM   #124 
  - Again, how are elderly people supposed to live without Social Security?  JDPriestly   Apr-21-11 09:32 AM   #151 
  - the actual real GDP growth of the US is negative, when 'cooked-books' banking/financial chicanery is  stockholmer   Apr-21-11 09:12 AM   #143 
  - Yo_Mama, so what is your proposal for an alternative to Social  JDPriestly   Apr-21-11 09:31 AM   #150 
  - The problem that I have.  bluestate10   Apr-20-11 07:57 PM   #26 
  - Your figures are way off.  former9thward   Apr-20-11 08:03 PM   #31 
  - First off, credible economists do agree - read my paper for details  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:08 PM   #33 
  - The CBO says a deficit this year.  former9thward   Apr-20-11 08:19 PM   #44 
  - Read it carefully: that's excluding interest  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:21 PM   #48 
  - I read your paper and saw only 2 economists quoted.  former9thward   Apr-20-11 08:27 PM   #50 
     - I thought it was pretty clear.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:28 PM   #52 
     - Well regardless with what anyone said I disagree with your prediction  former9thward   Apr-20-11 08:39 PM   #58 
        - if "most economists" agree, why can't you cite them?  Hannah Bell   Apr-21-11 03:47 AM   #107 
           - Here's one for starters, also read up on Dean Baker  jtown1123   Apr-21-11 08:36 AM   #138 
           - I'll just go with the U.S. Commence Dept Bureau of Economic Analysis.  former9thward   Apr-21-11 11:23 AM   #169 
     - Delete - Wrong place  former9thward   Apr-20-11 08:32 PM   #54 
  - Completely off.  ProSense   Apr-20-11 08:13 PM   #38 
  - Uh... what are you claiming?  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:16 PM   #39 
  - The Congressional Budget Office disagrees with you.  former9thward   Apr-20-11 08:18 PM   #43 
     - And again, they don't disagree at all. Read my response upthread.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:22 PM   #49 
  - Right.  bluestate10   Apr-20-11 08:16 PM   #40 
  - I like the foreign soil option.  former9thward   Apr-20-11 08:20 PM   #47 
     - Good for you. I don't. nt.  bluestate10   Apr-20-11 09:12 PM   #79 
  - So, former9thward, how do you propose to house and feed those  JDPriestly   Apr-21-11 09:38 AM   #153 
     - When I took rhetoric in college one of the first things taught was that any sentence  former9thward   Apr-21-11 11:14 AM   #168 
        - At least you admit that there really is no alternative to Social Security.  JDPriestly   Apr-21-11 11:43 AM   #175 
  - Under current law disability won't be paid starting 2018  Yo_Mama   Apr-20-11 08:05 PM   #32 
  - My numbers cover OASI and DI as a single entity  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:09 PM   #35 
  - Well let's check your numbers against historical performance  Yo_Mama   Apr-20-11 10:07 PM   #84 
     - The 1995 projection claimed The Trust Fund would be bankrupt in 2029.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 10:17 PM   #85 
        - It HAS happened.  Yo_Mama   Apr-20-11 11:00 PM   #88 
           - 2001-2010 was bracketed by a bad recession and a depression.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-21-11 07:06 AM   #122 
              - Look at the 70-80 time frame  Yo_Mama   Apr-21-11 08:11 AM   #134 
                 - That dip in employment rates included a lot of people in their 50s  JDPriestly   Apr-21-11 09:44 AM   #157 
  - bullshit.  Hannah Bell   Apr-21-11 03:48 AM   #109 
  - So raise the cap.  JDPriestly   Apr-21-11 09:40 AM   #154 
  - The problem is that Boomers will live forever. Well, maybe not.  elocs   Apr-20-11 08:16 PM   #41 
  - the bad guys have already won  Generic Other   Apr-20-11 08:19 PM   #46 
  - K&R....n/t  unkachuck   Apr-20-11 08:30 PM   #53 
  - 2010 OASDI Trustees Report  ProSense   Apr-20-11 08:36 PM   #56 
  - "Under the intermediate assumptions"  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:39 PM   #57 
     - Actually  ProSense   Apr-20-11 08:42 PM   #61 
        - And again, your quote has zero to do with your assertion.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:46 PM   #65 
        - And again,  ProSense   Apr-20-11 08:46 PM   #67 
           - You tried to prove me wrong, and failed.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:48 PM   #70 
              - You're trying  ProSense   Apr-20-11 08:53 PM   #72 
                 - I guess we'll leave it to the good people of DU to read our respective posts  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 08:57 PM   #75 
                    - Hmmm?  ProSense   Apr-20-11 09:21 PM   #80 
                    - Obama mentioned Social Security cuts in his SOTU, just as predicted.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 09:35 PM   #81 
                    - Alas, to some of us, it seems you are arguing with ignored  tavalon   Apr-20-11 10:01 PM   #82 
                       - Well, I'd like everyone besides you to know that  ProSense   Apr-20-11 10:31 PM   #86 
        - intermediate assumption is gdp at 2.1-2.2% growth from 2018 through 2085.  Hannah Bell   Apr-21-11 04:00 AM   #112 
           - This is great news.  ProSense   Apr-21-11 07:43 AM   #128 
              - No boom needed. Only needs to suck not much worse than 2010.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-21-11 07:57 AM   #132 
                 - "All other things being equal, I'd gladly take a raise in the cap even though I'd be affected."  ProSense   Apr-21-11 08:22 AM   #135 
                    - How selective of you.  Lasher   Apr-21-11 12:11 PM   #182 
                       - Selective?  ProSense   Apr-21-11 01:22 PM   #192 
                          - Oh OK, I didn't understand.  Lasher   Apr-21-11 02:02 PM   #197 
  - K  GreenTea   Apr-20-11 08:43 PM   #62 
  - Thank you for doing this.  sabrina 1   Apr-20-11 08:47 PM   #69 
  - yep just Manny being Manny! I appreciate good work and research also.  democracy1st   Apr-20-11 11:18 PM   #93 
     - Aw shucks.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-21-11 03:59 PM   #206 
  - knr nt  slipslidingaway   Apr-20-11 08:48 PM   #71 
  - +100. K&R  lumberjack_jeff   Apr-20-11 10:01 PM   #83 
  - Please respond to  ProSense   Apr-20-11 10:46 PM   #87 
  - Which part of response #1 of that poll are you having trouble reading?  MannyGoldstein   Apr-20-11 11:15 PM   #91 
     - Oh sorry  ProSense   Apr-20-11 11:33 PM   #94 
  - K & R  democracy1st   Apr-20-11 11:09 PM   #89 
  - K/R --  defendandprotect   Apr-20-11 11:12 PM   #90 
  - most excellent work! thank you so much for sharing with us.  inna   Apr-20-11 11:46 PM   #95 
  - Thanks and kick  glinda   Apr-21-11 12:04 AM   #96 
  - Excellent work.  Hannah Bell   Apr-21-11 12:54 AM   #97 
  - the truth eh...a novel concept  HankyDubs   Apr-21-11 01:05 AM   #100 
  - Good Research!  Sherman A1   Apr-21-11 02:50 AM   #101 
  - KNR! n/t  indimuse   Apr-21-11 03:19 AM   #102 
  - K&R!  Enthusiast   Apr-21-11 03:39 AM   #105 
  - Why do you assume that future growth will match past growth (or even be particularly close)?  BzaDem   Apr-21-11 03:55 AM   #110 
  - after Peak Oil, 2.1% growth might be wildly optimistic  paulkienitz   Apr-21-11 04:55 AM   #113 
  - I concur.  sofa king   Apr-21-11 11:57 AM   #180 
  - It's about letting Wall Street steal the fund.  Turbineguy   Apr-21-11 05:00 AM   #114 
  - it's what finance capital wants to do. therefore it's what politicians generally want to do.  Hannah Bell   Apr-21-11 05:02 AM   #115 
  - All they have to do is pay back what they stole from it  liberal N proud   Apr-21-11 05:48 AM   #116 
  - That's true, but misleading.  Unvanguard   Apr-21-11 06:29 AM   #118 
  - So *this* time it's really real?  MannyGoldstein   Apr-21-11 07:28 AM   #125 
     - So this is pure, unsupported speculation on your part?  Unvanguard   Apr-21-11 08:45 AM   #140 
     - The 1999 summary seems pretty accurate  Yo_Mama   Apr-21-11 12:47 PM   #189 
  - K&R  MissDeeds   Apr-21-11 06:36 AM   #119 
  - Thanks for digging through the numbers and explaining this.  fasttense   Apr-21-11 06:56 AM   #121 
  - K&R and Many Thanks !  Overseas   Apr-21-11 07:35 AM   #126 
  - as a 65-YO SS recipient  Buenaventura   Apr-21-11 07:45 AM   #129 
  - I support lower growth rates  Bragi   Apr-21-11 07:49 AM   #130 
  - Manny you are the man  florida08   Apr-21-11 07:54 AM   #131 
  - Economy may well get worse  abelenkpe   Apr-21-11 08:35 AM   #137 
  - America (and the world) needs LESS economic growth  Bragi   Apr-21-11 08:45 AM   #139 
  - False setup of the problem, IMO  robcon   Apr-21-11 08:45 AM   #141 
  - Kicking. Thank you sir. May I print this and pass it to my neighbors? n/t  Hotler   Apr-21-11 09:34 AM   #152 
  - I'd be grateful if you did!  MannyGoldstein   Apr-21-11 08:08 PM   #222 
  - K&R  Bryn   Apr-21-11 09:42 AM   #155 
  - Yet another K & R  FlyByNight   Apr-21-11 09:44 AM   #156 
  - Yeah, well  Yo_Mama   Apr-21-11 10:30 AM   #158 
  - Excellent post -  TBF   Apr-21-11 10:35 AM   #159 
  - Privatizing everything. The neocon goal.  Jakes Progress   Apr-21-11 10:35 AM   #160 
  - I'm getting the feeling that they are planning to sink the American Economy  Chisox08   Apr-21-11 10:37 AM   #161 
  - It's My Impression That Acutaries are Conservative by Nature  On the Road   Apr-21-11 10:39 AM   #162 
  - Forwarded to Senator Sanders  thomhartmann   Apr-21-11 11:01 AM   #163 
  - Thanks for doing that, Thom!  senseandsensibility   Apr-21-11 11:24 AM   #170 
  - Wow! Thanks.  MannyGoldstein   Apr-21-11 03:57 PM   #205 
  - Thank you, Thom.  Raksha   Apr-21-11 05:14 PM   #210 
  - Thom, I think you are right about pigeons  fascisthunter   Apr-21-11 06:18 PM   #219 
  - Free Market Capitalism Brought Lower Growth Rates  mckara   Apr-21-11 11:08 AM   #164 
  - This cannot be stressed enough.  Cali_Democrat   Apr-21-11 11:09 AM   #165 
  - So WE (and I use that we cautiously) KNOW SS will be depleted in 26 years?  DainBramaged   Apr-21-11 11:09 AM   #166 
  - K&R  amborin   Apr-21-11 11:12 AM   #167 
  - This thread just mentioned on Hartmann.  Gold Metal Flake   Apr-21-11 11:42 AM   #174 
  - He was posting in this thread.  Lars39   Apr-21-11 11:45 AM   #177 
  - Transcript?  Lasher   Apr-21-11 02:06 PM   #198 
  - Rec and kick. nt  bertman   Apr-21-11 12:04 PM   #181 
  - Thank you so much for your awesome work. nt  Zorra   Apr-21-11 12:26 PM   #186 
  - K&R  bvar22   Apr-21-11 12:46 PM   #188 
  - The economy will not grow at a significant rate until the wealth disparity decreases.  toddwv   Apr-21-11 12:54 PM   #190 
  - I would also be willing to wage that in 26 years, if not sooner, demographics will change  Uncle Joe   Apr-21-11 01:35 PM   #194 
  - You are very mistaken  Yo_Mama   Apr-22-11 10:38 AM   #231 
     - Your own graph supports my contention, why do you believe those  Uncle Joe   Apr-22-11 11:00 AM   #232 
        - Those lines aren't smaller from deaths  Yo_Mama   Apr-22-11 09:41 PM   #233 
  - Thank you so very much. n/t  truedelphi   Apr-21-11 01:59 PM   #196 
  - The big lie by all this propaganda is that the trillions belonging to the people of this country  ooglymoogly   Apr-21-11 02:27 PM   #199 
  - People also forget that some shortfall is due to the fact that most of the income growth  wiggs   Apr-21-11 02:40 PM   #200 
  - K&R and Thanks for the info! n/t  Mimosa   Apr-21-11 03:17 PM   #201 
  - Thank you... Wisconsin Public Radio had an economist on a few  midnight   Apr-21-11 03:21 PM   #203 
  - K&R  ck4829   Apr-21-11 05:03 PM   #208 
  - K & R - I saved your research paper.  Raksha   Apr-21-11 05:04 PM   #209 
  - HUGE K & R !!!  WillyT   Apr-21-11 05:19 PM   #211 
  - I am going to try and get mine early . . .  DollyM   Apr-21-11 05:38 PM   #214 
  - Thom Hartmann approves.  L0oniX   Apr-21-11 05:45 PM   #215 
  - I heard that too  fascisthunter   Apr-21-11 06:12 PM   #217 
  - So, if you want to rob SS, you have to plunge the US into recession first.  McCamy Taylor   Apr-21-11 06:04 PM   #216 
  - Thank You Manny, a Dynamite Thread  fascisthunter   Apr-21-11 06:13 PM   #218 
  - K/R. Very good post.  Corruption Winz   Apr-21-11 06:52 PM   #220 
  - k&r for visibility  Dappleganger   Apr-21-11 11:51 PM   #223 
  - Thanks for the information.  Vattel   Apr-22-11 07:59 AM   #224 
  - kick  ReggieVeggie   Apr-22-11 09:09 AM   #225 
  - K&R  pscot   Apr-22-11 09:21 AM   #226 
  - Congrats on making Thom Hartmann! K&R  mascarax   Apr-22-11 09:36 AM   #227 
  - Think we should raise the cap, nonetheless -- to shift the burden from poor and middle class --  defendandprotect   Apr-22-11 09:44 AM   #228 
  - kick!  RainDog   Apr-22-11 10:33 AM   #230 
  - Congrats on getting your OP talked about on front page of Alan Colmes' website  Tx4obama   Apr-22-11 10:25 PM   #235 
  - rec! End FICA cap and end Bush tax cuts  upi402   Apr-23-11 12:10 PM   #237 
 

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