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Reply #58: 2 arguments: First, the Constitution trumps federal law, and the 4th amendment is interpreted to [View All]

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franzia99 Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. 2 arguments: First, the Constitution trumps federal law, and the 4th amendment is interpreted to
Edited on Sat Apr-16-11 09:51 PM by franzia99
mean that people cannot be searched without probable cause. So were this to go to court there are many who believe the regulations requiring these searches will be struck down on the grounds that they're subjecting people to searches without probable cause. Probable cause means you have particularized facts that reasonably suggest that someone may be committing or has committed a crime.

The second argument is that what this TSA agent did went beyond the scope of proper procedure under the TSA's own rules (assuming they're deemed constitutional) and therefore constituted a sexual assault. If you watch the video the alleged victim says he's been patted down many times before and that this one was much more intrusive than what he's previously been subjected to. He said the agent pushed him out of line, repeatedly fondled his penis and testicles, and stuck his hands down the front of his pants. If the finder of fact concludes that the agent went beyond the proper procedure for the patdowns, they could find unlawful sexual contact, even if the patdown regulations stand.


And even if a prosecutor refused to bring this, the alleged victim could bring a 1983 claim where he sues the government for violation of his civil rights. Again, this is a question for the finder of fact. Based on what's been reported, it looks like there's a colorable claim.
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  -Colorado man claims he was 'sexually assaulted' by TSA The Northerner  Apr-16-11 03:12 PM   #0 
  - This guy needs some perspective.  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 03:16 PM   #1 
  - he simply needs to understand a stranger groping his dick makes you feel safer  seabeyond   Apr-16-11 03:19 PM   #2 
  - +100000  woo me with science   Apr-16-11 03:19 PM   #3 
  - +1 brazillion. nt  xchrom   Apr-16-11 03:27 PM   #6 
  - I couldn't agree more  The Northerner   Apr-16-11 03:33 PM   #9 
  - Very well stated!  sabrina 1   Apr-16-11 03:42 PM   #11 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-16-11 03:49 PM   #12 
  - No, you didn't hear me.  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 06:41 PM   #14 
  - ah. well, i dont do degrees. but i can imagine that a person who had been sexually molested would  seabeyond   Apr-16-11 06:42 PM   #16 
  - I never suggested it's okay. But it most certainly is NOT sexual assault.  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 08:18 PM   #26 
     - How do you figure? It's an unconsented to sexual contact; fitting the sex assault definition in  franzia99   Apr-16-11 08:44 PM   #37 
     - Yeah, fondling of privates never hurt anyone.  joeunderdog   Apr-17-11 12:31 PM   #85 
     - You don't get to decide that. If you have no problems being  sabrina 1   Apr-17-11 04:35 PM   #105 
        - And I...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 04:39 PM   #106 
           - Don't know what you mean by that comment.  sabrina 1   Apr-17-11 04:59 PM   #110 
           - I see...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 05:01 PM   #111 
              - Yes, every victim gets to decide whether or not they were  sabrina 1   Apr-17-11 05:22 PM   #113 
                 - "Who doesn't get to decide are strangers who know nothing about the case, such as people on...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 05:24 PM   #114 
                    - True, but I'm not the one saying that this person has no  sabrina 1   Apr-17-11 05:38 PM   #116 
                       - That's my opinion....  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 05:47 PM   #117 
                          - Can you explain, since you are so convinced that  sabrina 1   Apr-17-11 05:56 PM   #118 
                             - "why every time someone challenges them, the TSA backs down"  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 05:59 PM   #119 
           - And I for one  sudopod   Apr-17-11 10:12 PM   #124 
              - I like facts, dude....  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 10:20 PM   #127 
                 - Are you any kin to the guy who wrote "Nuclear Reactor Analysis" by chance? nt  sudopod   Apr-17-11 10:21 PM   #129 
                    - If you just want to fight...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 10:23 PM   #131 
                       - I was serious, lol.  sudopod   Apr-17-11 10:31 PM   #133 
                          - You're assuming....  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 10:34 PM   #136 
                          - Why are you asking me personal questions? n/t  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 11:49 PM   #147 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Apr-16-11 07:03 PM   #20 
  - Ok, coach. nt  sudopod   Apr-17-11 10:11 PM   #123 
  - lol  franzia99   Apr-16-11 08:41 PM   #35 
  - Well, if I wasn't circumcised it would be a good place to hide some weed  snooper2   Apr-18-11 10:10 AM   #157 
  - Yes...why can't everyone just stand up, salute & be a "good German"?  hlthe2b   Apr-16-11 03:20 PM   #4 
  - He must have been one of those "arrogant people who  LisaL   Apr-16-11 03:21 PM   #5 
  - LOL!!!  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 08:23 PM   #30 
     - You're pretty unbelievable in your cavalier regard  timtom   Apr-17-11 03:34 PM   #99 
  - he was sexually assulted  reggie the dog   Apr-16-11 03:29 PM   #7 
  - By definition only -- and a very generous definition at that.  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 06:41 PM   #15 
  - So if Larry Craig came over and against your will did the same...  Sen. Walter Sobchak   Apr-16-11 07:05 PM   #21 
  - If Larry Craig were wearing a TSA uniform performing his job, he'd be another TSA lackey.  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 08:20 PM   #27 
     - So a uniform gives someone the right to sexually assault you?  Matariki   Apr-16-11 08:25 PM   #32 
     - You seem to be missing a really vital point: it wasn't sexual assault.  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 08:56 PM   #41 
     - "performing one job" does not include what occured in this story  Sen. Walter Sobchak   Apr-16-11 08:29 PM   #33 
        - Okay. I agree. I completely and totally agree that this clown should be fired.  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 08:58 PM   #42 
  - Uh, touching someone's genitals without consent fits the legal definition of sexual assault  franzia99   Apr-16-11 08:49 PM   #40 
  - It's sure as hell is relevant to this conversation.  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 08:58 PM   #43 
     - You don't make the law brother.  franzia99   Apr-16-11 09:01 PM   #44 
        - And you do?  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 09:06 PM   #46 
           - Here's the Colorado definition, complete with links  franzia99   Apr-16-11 09:28 PM   #48 
              - Keywords:  SDuderstadt   Apr-16-11 09:31 PM   #49 
                 - Which is a question of fact for the jury to decide.  franzia99   Apr-16-11 09:32 PM   #50 
                    - Oh, for the love of Mike...  SDuderstadt   Apr-16-11 09:33 PM   #51 
                       - Are you the prosecutor and/or judge with jurisdiction over this?  franzia99   Apr-16-11 09:35 PM   #52 
                          - Neither have you...  SDuderstadt   Apr-16-11 09:36 PM   #53 
                             - Um, flesh out that argument please. Your point is unclear.  franzia99   Apr-16-11 09:37 PM   #54 
                                - TSA regulations are...  SDuderstadt   Apr-16-11 09:41 PM   #55 
                                   - 2 arguments: First, the Constitution trumps federal law, and the 4th amendment is interpreted to  franzia99   Apr-16-11 09:47 PM   #58 
                                   - Dude...  SDuderstadt   Apr-16-11 09:53 PM   #59 
                                      - Sadly though, your argument is unpersuasive.  franzia99   Apr-16-11 09:54 PM   #60 
                                         - Take it up with the Supreme Court...  SDuderstadt   Apr-16-11 09:59 PM   #61 
                                         - Shouldn't be too hard to find if you put in a minute of effort. Not to mention, you've never  franzia99   Apr-16-11 10:13 PM   #62 
                                         - That's a prediction....  SDuderstadt   Apr-16-11 10:17 PM   #63 
                                         - It's a question for the finder of fact, as I've said.  franzia99   Apr-16-11 10:18 PM   #64 
                                         - Which is why I labeled what I said as...  SDuderstadt   Apr-16-11 10:48 PM   #65 
                                         - His grammar is correct. He said "what the TSA agent did," which is a  tblue37   Apr-17-11 10:31 PM   #132 
                                   - So any TSA agent can do anything to any passenger with impunity?  LisaL   Apr-17-11 11:14 AM   #73 
                                   - No...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 11:25 AM   #76 
                                      - You just said that no judge will permit this case to proceed?  LisaL   Apr-17-11 01:54 PM   #90 
                                         - First of all...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 01:58 PM   #92 
                                         - Predict what you want, but your "supremacy clause" argument is WEAK  franzia99   Apr-17-11 04:19 PM   #100 
                                         - Do you think capitalizing "weak"....  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 04:42 PM   #107 
                                   - why not? sexual assault is a state crime, not a federal one  reggie the dog   Apr-17-11 12:18 PM   #79 
                                      - Dude...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 12:29 PM   #83 
                                         - Are you an actual attorney? Because you're butchering the legal analysis.  franzia99   Apr-17-11 04:25 PM   #101 
                                            - Says you n/t  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 04:26 PM   #102 
                                            - Yah, funny, I'm probably one of the few lawyers on here.  franzia99   Apr-17-11 04:29 PM   #103 
                                            - Sure you are n/t  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 04:31 PM   #104 
                                            - Okay, so I'll take this as an admission that you aren't. People should be informed  franzia99   Apr-17-11 04:42 PM   #108 
                                            - Of course, the current SCOTUS is packed with RW Bush appointees. nt  tblue37   Apr-17-11 10:34 PM   #135 
  - Wow  tpsbmam   Apr-16-11 09:43 PM   #57 
  - so when you were a kid and teen and the cops kept stoppin you  reggie the dog   Apr-17-11 10:55 AM   #66 
     - Getting back you way late....either I responded to the wrong post or you did....  tpsbmam   Apr-17-11 10:09 PM   #122 
        - i posted in the wrong place, sorry and thanks for sticking up for me  reggie the dog   Apr-18-11 07:49 AM   #152 
  - Is it some kind of contest?  _ed_   Apr-17-11 01:34 PM   #87 
  - Lol, I've never seen anyone argue a point like that!  Union Scribe   Apr-17-11 11:26 PM   #146 
  - Yeah, well, the Merkin Public is only outraged now because it is affecting THEM.  Warren DeMontague   Apr-16-11 07:34 PM   #24 
  - the shit they did to hippies like me  reggie the dog   Apr-17-11 10:57 AM   #67 
     - Agreed. The biggest component of the drug war is a racial one.  Warren DeMontague   Apr-17-11 03:25 PM   #98 
  - that's my penis  joshcryer   Apr-16-11 08:44 PM   #36 
  - I think YOU need some perspective...  hlthe2b   Apr-16-11 03:32 PM   #8 
  - Meh. Bullshit.  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 06:43 PM   #17 
  - You contradicted yourself upstream...  hlthe2b   Apr-16-11 06:45 PM   #18 
     - Yeah, well, so have I. And I disagree with completely.  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 08:20 PM   #28 
     - You disagree that you contradict yourself?... Check it.. Post #15  hlthe2b   Apr-16-11 08:23 PM   #29 
     - I disagree with you.  Buzz Clik   Apr-16-11 08:24 PM   #31 
        - You are free to do so..  hlthe2b   Apr-16-11 08:33 PM   #34 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-16-11 09:06 PM   #45 
           - You don't get to misstate misframe, or misrepresent everything  hlthe2b   Apr-16-11 09:17 PM   #47 
        - The unlawful sexual contact does not have to be violent.  LisaL   Apr-17-11 11:09 AM   #71 
           - unwanted contact with my sexaul areas is violence in and of itself  reggie the dog   Apr-17-11 12:22 PM   #81 
     - Oh for crying out loud.  LisaL   Apr-17-11 11:08 AM   #69 
     - as when cops felt my privates because i "looked like a druggie"  reggie the dog   Apr-17-11 12:21 PM   #80 
        - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Apr-17-11 12:31 PM   #84 
     - Hey...get used to it.  blueamy66   Apr-16-11 08:47 PM   #39 
        - Unintentional irony n/t  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 12:57 PM   #86 
  - "Denver Police is investigating. "  bobbolink   Apr-16-11 06:49 PM   #19 
     - Look, I have my issues with DPD...  hlthe2b   Apr-16-11 07:29 PM   #22 
        - I guess for people who haven't been victims of *their* contempt, they don't deserve any  bobbolink   Apr-16-11 07:40 PM   #25 
  - Maybe he DOES have perspective  tpsbmam   Apr-16-11 09:41 PM   #56 
  - i listened to the video clip and there is a tsa person something along the line of 'tsa has 'served'  xchrom   Apr-16-11 03:34 PM   #10 
  - It's meant along the lines of  notesdev   Apr-16-11 04:17 PM   #13 
  - Well duh. Didn't he notice the other people in line ahead of him getting assaulted?  Shagbark Hickory   Apr-16-11 07:33 PM   #23 
  - Watch the report, he's a frequent flier, this was different for him.  joshcryer   Apr-16-11 08:45 PM   #38 
  - I really wonder why this hasn't been challenged as a violation of 4th amendment rights yet.  Initech   Apr-17-11 11:01 AM   #68 
  - Because security checkpoints don't require...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 11:08 AM   #70 
  - But the search has to be reasonable.  LisaL   Apr-17-11 11:10 AM   #72 
  - Keywords: "as this guy alleges"  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 11:23 AM   #75 
     - Yes of course these are allegations.  LisaL   Apr-17-11 01:48 PM   #88 
        - Because I don't believe that any DA will prosecute...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 01:53 PM   #89 
           - So, nothing that TSA agent does can lead to prosecution, using your  LisaL   Apr-17-11 01:55 PM   #91 
              - Jesus...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 02:05 PM   #93 
                 - You just claimed no DA will prosecute...  LisaL   Apr-17-11 10:15 PM   #125 
                    - It's a prediction and...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 10:21 PM   #128 
  - I still think this would be illegal search and seizure.  Initech   Apr-17-11 11:17 AM   #74 
  - Well...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 11:28 AM   #77 
     - If it happens to me, maybe I will.  Initech   Apr-17-11 12:13 PM   #78 
        - As I said before...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 12:25 PM   #82 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-17-11 07:39 PM   #121 
  - Because the 4th amendment doesn't give you the right to fly on an airplane  Hippo_Tron   Apr-17-11 02:45 PM   #94 
     - It's about searching someone's bags illegally, not about flying.  Initech   Apr-17-11 03:07 PM   #95 
     - It isn't "illegal"...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 03:17 PM   #96 
     - Can you imagine asking Thomas Jefferson if it's ok to grab his crotch?  sudopod   Apr-17-11 10:15 PM   #126 
        - Nobody's crotch is...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 10:22 PM   #130 
           - Patted firmly with a cupped hand? nt  sudopod   Apr-17-11 10:32 PM   #134 
              - Have you been through the actual...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 10:36 PM   #137 
                 - Does it matter? nt  sudopod   Apr-17-11 10:36 PM   #138 
                    - Yes n/t  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 10:41 PM   #139 
                       - Why? nt  sudopod   Apr-17-11 10:44 PM   #140 
                          - On what basis do you know...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 10:45 PM   #141 
                             - Not everyone lies. nt  sudopod   Apr-17-11 10:50 PM   #142 
                                - Exaggeration is not necessarily "lying"...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-11 11:00 PM   #143 
                                   - I don't know. I guess you had to be there? nt  sudopod   Apr-17-11 11:02 PM   #144 
                                   - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Apr-17-11 11:03 PM   #145 
                                   - LOL, it appears that you're upset. ;) nt  sudopod   Apr-18-11 12:14 AM   #149 
     - Nobody is forced to have their bags searched by TSA  Hippo_Tron   Apr-17-11 03:24 PM   #97 
        - You don't know much about your own rights. No wonder  sabrina 1   Apr-17-11 04:56 PM   #109 
        - Dangerous argument, Slippery slope.  Innomen   Apr-17-11 05:14 PM   #112 
           - Yes, you do have a right to fly.  sabrina 1   Apr-17-11 07:01 PM   #120 
           - Agreed.  Innomen   Apr-19-11 01:12 PM   #158 
           - Exactly this.  Initech   Apr-18-11 12:05 AM   #148 
     - we HAVE to go into the court house. the court houses have naked scans. is THAT against 4th  seabeyond   Apr-17-11 05:25 PM   #115 
        - I've had jury duty several times and never been subjected to one.  Initech   Apr-18-11 12:15 AM   #150 
        - i know there are courthouses in florida that have them. they have held onto the pictures and  seabeyond   Apr-18-11 01:28 AM   #151 
        - when i went to trial in craig county virginia  reggie the dog   Apr-18-11 07:51 AM   #153 
           - ok. and a lot of courts across the nation does not have naked scanner. there are a few  seabeyond   Apr-18-11 09:13 AM   #155 
              - ah, i see  reggie the dog   Apr-18-11 09:29 AM   #156 
  - There's no room for opinion on this. It's wrong to be touched without consent and...  Modern_Matthew   Apr-18-11 07:54 AM   #154 
     - Agreed, however.  Innomen   Apr-19-11 01:22 PM   #159 

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