You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Reply #53: re: Chernobyl [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
midgardinruin Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. re: Chernobyl
You're referencing the Chernobyl accident, which actually didn't even have a containment structure. Now I'm sure you've probably heard many comparisons to the Three Mile Island and Chernobyl accidents in past few days. If you don't mind, I'd like to illustrate how each of these reactor accidents relates to the Japanese problems.

While these two events are often lumped together, they were the results of very different phenomenon and had very different effects. The Chernobyl accident was a true disaster, resulted in a serious threat to the local public, and lead to numerous fatalities. The reactor was destroyed and the surrounding region was scarred. Three mile island, on the other hand, was posed little threat to the public and resulted in only a small release of radioactivity when during a ventilation process. The Three Mile Island plant actually still operates to this day.

In the case of Three mile island, this comparison is quite fair. As is the case now, difficulty at three mile island stemmed from trouble providing cooling water to the core following pump failure and lead to a partial meltdown. In japan's case, the primary pumps were lost when the plant was isolated from the power grid during the earthquake. When the plant was isolated from the power grid, the reactor was "scramed" which means that control rods were inserted into the core to prevent further fission.

Had the earthquake been the only tribulation, all would have been fine and dandy because there are diesel powered backup pumps which kicked on in response to this sort of situation, cooling the core to remove what is called "decay heat". Decay heat is heat generation (orders of magnitude lower than heat generation in normal operations) from the radioactive materials in the pressure vessel which continues for a finite amount of time after shutdown. However, in the tsunami following the earthquake, many of these pumps were disabled and since then, there has been difficulty providing coolant to the core to remove this decay heat. As a result, some "fuel rods" have been damaged and a portion of the fuel may have melted. While this means that the reactor will probably never run again, it isn't the sort of disaster many people think of. As with the case of three mile island, there is likely little threat posed to the public.

The difficulties with the Japanese reactors is very different from what happened in the reactor at Chernobyl. The trouble facing the Japanese reactors is providing coolant to remove decay heat from the core. The trouble at Chernobyl was what is called a "run away criticality accident". This occurs when the fission rate increases with increasing reactor temperature. This is a result of the core geometry and materials used. What was particularly troublesome was the use of graphite moderator/water coolant combination. As you might guess, more fission means more heat, which leads to higher temperatures, which in turn leads to even more fission! When this configuration was achieved, within a very short period of time, the reactor exploded. As I mentioned previously, the Chernobyl reactor had no containment structure, only a containment building so there was little to prevent radiation material from escaping into the environment.

The reactors distressed in japan and any reactor in the United States have been engineered such that this could never happen. Beyond a certain operating temperature, any further increase in temperature will lead to a REDUCED fission rate, which in turn reduces to temperature to the operation temperature. It's conceptually similar to how the cruise control works in a car. This achieved by using water as a coolant AND moderator. As water is boiled, density drops, moderation decreases,and fewer fissions can occur. But the problem now isn't fission, its decay heat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
  -nevermind....the guy on cnn just poo poo'd any problem with radiation spanone  Mar-12-11 10:11 PM   #0 
  - What did his seeing eye dog see?  dixiegrrrrl   Mar-12-11 10:12 PM   #1 
  - All Billionaires are reporting to China to get  itsrobert   Mar-12-11 10:13 PM   #2 
  - That was Professor Glenn E. Sjoden - nuke industry stooge:  Dennis Donovan   Mar-12-11 10:13 PM   #3 
  - said a ct scan at the hospital was 100 times more radiation than what you would get at the site  spanone   Mar-12-11 10:14 PM   #4 
  - Bullshit. And BP says they cleaned up the oil and no harm done. nt  gateley   Mar-12-11 10:23 PM   #9 
  - That was a genuine wtf moment  proud2BlibKansan   Mar-12-11 10:27 PM   #15 
  - how many ct scans a day/week do you have?  Whisp   Mar-12-11 10:34 PM   #23 
  - conspiracies everywhere!  midgardinruin   Mar-15-11 01:51 AM   #56 
  - Anyone who is qualified is a stooge. Got it.  wtmusic   Mar-12-11 10:17 PM   # 
  - Qualified? Perhaps. Biased? Look who he's worked for...  Dennis Donovan   Mar-12-11 10:22 PM   #8 
     - Who would you recommend?  wtmusic   Mar-12-11 10:25 PM   #11 
        - I'd prefer someone not so closely tied with the nuclear power industry...  Dennis Donovan   Mar-12-11 10:27 PM   #13 
           - So someone with a degree, but little practical experience on the job.  wtmusic   Mar-12-11 10:29 PM   #19 
              - Anyone who is knowledgeable and is unbiased...  Dennis Donovan   Mar-12-11 10:39 PM   #25 
  - He's a VP of HSW Technologies  mrJJ   Mar-12-11 11:16 PM   #31 
  - re: He's the VP of HSW Technologies  midgardinruin   Mar-15-11 12:50 AM   #45 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-13-11 12:22 AM   #33 
  - Nope. Nukular innergee is sayf  Thunderstruck   Mar-12-11 10:16 PM   #5 
  - he sounded like he owned a few nuke plants and wanted to keep them running  spanone   Mar-12-11 10:17 PM   #7 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-13-11 12:27 AM   #34 
        - Good post...  SidDithers   Mar-13-11 12:53 AM   #38 
  - lol! I was yelling at him outloud and saying that he should take a jet right now to Japan and hang  OmmmSweetOmmm   Mar-12-11 10:17 PM   #6 
  - No. Those nuke 'experts' probably all have fallout shelters in their backyards. nt  gateley   Mar-12-11 10:24 PM   #10 
  - Fitted with those showers and special nuke suits.........  OmmmSweetOmmm   Mar-12-11 10:28 PM   #17 
     - And lots of Spam. The wonder "food' that is impervious to everything - even fallout! nt  gateley   Mar-12-11 11:53 PM   #32 
        - Don't forget the Tang. ;)  OmmmSweetOmmm   Mar-13-11 01:41 PM   #42 
  - Not everyone is as hysterical as many are here.  wtmusic   Mar-12-11 10:28 PM   #16 
     - He was saying in no uncertain terms, without being there, without being privvy to real information,  OmmmSweetOmmm   Mar-12-11 10:30 PM   #20 
     - Not hysterical, fine. But "no cause for concern" is understating the case  LiberalAndProud   Mar-15-11 01:14 AM   #47 
  - The prof said ".......all contingencies have been accounted for."  snappyturtle   Mar-12-11 10:26 PM   #12 
  - When he said that I thought "true believer"  PA Democrat   Mar-12-11 10:43 PM   #27 
  - Unrealistic standards  midgardinruin   Mar-15-11 01:03 AM   #46 
  - and people here are giving Bill Nye a hard time...  Whisp   Mar-12-11 10:27 PM   #14 
  - i thought nye did a great job of pointing out the true dangers.  spanone   Mar-12-11 10:29 PM   #18 
  - Nye Rocks  proud patriot   Mar-12-11 10:33 PM   #22 
  - Yes, Nye rocks....I wanted to hear more from him! I emailed CNN  snappyturtle   Mar-13-11 12:35 PM   #41 
  - "true" dangers?  midgardinruin   Mar-15-11 01:23 AM   #49 
  - Nye's a cool guy but maybe not the best source  midgardinruin   Mar-15-11 01:18 AM   #48 
  - Nothing to worry about...move along......just go watch a good movie and hit the hay. nt  Auntie Bush   Mar-12-11 10:33 PM   #21 
  - The exploding containment building?  pokerfan   Mar-12-11 10:35 PM   #24 
  - RW tool and Global Warming denier... Why is the Guy an 'Expert' on Anything?  JCMach1   Mar-12-11 10:42 PM   #26 
  - Yes, he is right.  skarichie   Mar-12-11 10:54 PM   #28 
  - Any questions?  skarichie   Mar-12-11 11:08 PM   #29 
  - Yes, what are your credentials? Since you just signed up to answer this post...  Bluebear   Mar-12-11 11:15 PM   #30 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Mar-13-11 12:51 AM   #37 
  - What is the difference between 31 and 7000?  LiberalAndProud   Mar-15-11 01:24 AM   #50 
     - re: Chernobyl  midgardinruin   Mar-15-11 01:38 AM   #53 
        - Water as a coolant ...  LiberalAndProud   Mar-15-11 01:47 AM   #55 
           - USSR  midgardinruin   Mar-15-11 02:03 AM   #57 
              - Okay. You are either grossly misinformed, or lying about TMI.  LiberalAndProud   Mar-15-11 02:14 AM   #59 
                 - Public doses  midgardinruin   Mar-15-11 02:58 AM   #60 
  - Hard to believe.  Iggo   Mar-13-11 12:32 AM   #35 
  - "damage control", yep, that sums it up perfectly.  Turborama   Mar-13-11 12:32 AM   #36 
  - Why did nuclear engineers agree to lie to the public in 3 Mile Island?  upi402   Mar-13-11 12:57 AM   #39 
  - worthwhile  midgardinruin   Mar-15-11 02:09 AM   #58 
  - "Damage control" glad you admit that's  Raine   Mar-13-11 03:56 AM   #40 
  - then he should inform all these other scientists who are gravely concerned...don't you think?  spanone   Mar-13-11 01:44 PM   #43 
  - "damage control" thanks for proving theres an effort to spread disinformation on the site  meow mix   Mar-13-11 01:44 PM   #44 
     - poor word choice  midgardinruin   Mar-15-11 01:47 AM   #54 
  - They seem to be out in full force. On our local  Cleita   Mar-15-11 01:26 AM   #51 
  - Why, can he see Fukashima from Buckhead?  Tsiyu   Mar-15-11 01:35 AM   #52 
  - I think he posts on DU.  eShirl   Mar-15-11 05:18 AM   #61 
 

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC