sabrina 1
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Tue Jan-25-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #27 |
| 30. If the U.S. and other Western powers would accept |
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Edited on Tue Jan-25-11 02:18 PM by sabrina 1
the will of the people and the leaders they choose, then maybe these revolutions would have a chance of succeeding in the beginning of the building of democracies. But our own history shows that when people do rise up, as in Iran eg, the U.S. has historically (Cuba and Venezuela, Ecuador, Honduras et al) worked against the people's choice, using often as you point out, the CIA and the most brutal elements in countries where we have 'interests' to destabilze those democracies.
These policies have not worked. Latin America was the first to throw off the chains of dictatorship and Western influence in their affairs. But the U.S. stubbornly refuses to let go of its old, failed, cold war strategies and while working against the emerging democracies in that region of the world, continued to support the corrupt, genocidal Colombian regime.
Now, it's Africa and Arab states rising up against these policies.
I think the time has come for the U.S. to start supporting the people, rather than the corrupt corporations who have destroyed so many countries, their environments, their people, their traditions and their freedoms.
A new attitude is required by the Western Powers, or as you pointed out re Iran, it is far more likely for extremism to take hold after the initial success of overthrowing the dictatorships when Western powers refuse to accept the will of the people and become their enemy, further entrenching extremism and guaranteeing its success.
Quite frankly imho, it is shameful that we still support so many of the world's worst dictators, in Uzbekistan and elsewhere. We need to 'move forward' and help the world become a more democratic place. History will not record our role in the misery inflicted on so many millions of people very favorably.
Having said all that, I do agree with you that we cannot predict the outcome of these uprising, I can only say that listening to the people's list of 'grievances', they are not that different from those attached to the Declaration of Independence. The outcome of that revolution could have been very different also.
|
| -All Hell has broken loose in Egypt. The Guardian's doing live updates. |
Joanne98 |
Jan-25-11 10:31 AM |
#0 |
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I checked all the cable news chans and nada |
eleny |
Jan-25-11 10:39 AM |
#1 |
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Why the big secret here?/ |
RockaFowler |
Jan-25-11 12:51 PM |
#22 |
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Because they don't want us getting any ideas. |
cui bono |
Jan-25-11 05:11 PM |
#78 |
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My online newspaper the Bangor Daily News in upper state Maine |
molly77 |
Jan-25-11 06:00 PM |
#84 |
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I think they are a little braver in north africa than I am |
iamhuman |
Jan-25-11 06:34 PM |
#89 |
  -
Got me thinking, too... |
elzenmahn |
Jan-25-11 10:40 PM |
#100 |
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Usually, those with nothing to lose |
NOLALady |
Jan-26-11 10:01 AM |
#144 |
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Our corporate aristocracy wont like this, n/t |
fasttense |
Jan-26-11 05:43 AM |
#136 |
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Mubarak is a US ally. That's why the crickets. |
Odin2005 |
Jan-25-11 03:17 PM |
#60 |
  -
Well, it was just on the ABC evening news. |
thanks_imjustlurking |
Jan-25-11 05:44 PM |
#83 |
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Same here. This is all I found.. |
Shagbark Hickory |
Jan-25-11 04:47 PM |
#73 |
  -
FYI: Many DUers won't click on mysterious links. nt |
ZombieHorde |
Jan-25-11 10:06 PM |
#99 |
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LA Times |
sce56 |
Jan-25-11 05:37 PM |
#82 |
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Do you think the Tunisian uprising might have helped spark this? nt |
tblue37 |
Jan-25-11 10:52 AM |
#2 |
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One of the protesters in the article says so. |
Kablooie |
Jan-25-11 10:54 AM |
#3 |
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Yes, definitely. Other oppressed Arab countries have |
sabrina 1 |
Jan-25-11 12:30 PM |
#15 |
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I can only imagine |
femrap |
Jan-26-11 09:16 AM |
#140 |
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That would be the best outcome, but so far he shows no sign |
sabrina 1 |
Jan-26-11 01:03 PM |
#152 |
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That has everything to do with it. |
TheBigotBasher |
Jan-25-11 02:42 PM |
#40 |
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Yes |
BobbyBoring |
Jan-25-11 04:38 PM |
#68 |
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Bring it to the centers of civil and religious power! Good luck over there. |
GodlessBiker |
Jan-25-11 11:06 AM |
#4 |
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Is Hosni hosed? |
MilesColtrane |
Jan-25-11 11:14 AM |
#5 |
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Key sentence: The Egyptian goverment has been trying to shut down twitter and facebook. |
WinkyDink |
Jan-25-11 11:42 AM |
#6 |
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Hey.... maybe we can start a meme that our Congress |
Kalyke |
Jan-25-11 11:46 AM |
#8 |
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Well, I did start a thread...... :-) |
WinkyDink |
Jan-25-11 02:11 PM |
#33 |
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Well spotted |
mrfrapp |
Jan-25-11 05:00 PM |
#75 |
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Mubarak is a dictator, but I love Egypt and this frightens me... |
hlthe2b |
Jan-25-11 11:43 AM |
#7 |
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Yeah, that's the problem with revolutions. |
MilesColtrane |
Jan-25-11 12:19 PM |
#10 |
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I'd like to see Mohamed ElBaradei become president |
muriel_volestrangler |
Jan-25-11 12:20 PM |
#11 |
  -
Sounds good to me--hope he can pull it off n/t |
eridani |
Jan-25-11 11:03 PM |
#101 |
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According to my co-worker, they are rioting because of the police |
justiceischeap |
Jan-25-11 12:22 PM |
#12 |
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See my post to Sabrina below. I have lived & worked there... |
hlthe2b |
Jan-25-11 12:49 PM |
#21 |
   -
Just curious, do you thin Iran would be better if the Shah was still in power? |
Puregonzo1188 |
Jan-25-11 02:55 PM |
#46 |
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I think if peaceful revolution had been supported by western nations |
hlthe2b |
Jan-25-11 03:09 PM |
#53 |
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that's often the way it starts. nt |
tomp |
Jan-26-11 05:22 AM |
#130 |
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So, what's the answer? How do you get rid of a dictator? |
GodlessBiker |
Jan-25-11 12:26 PM |
#13 |
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I think they do need to be planning for Mubarak's exit... |
hlthe2b |
Jan-25-11 12:52 PM |
#23 |
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Yes, there is risk. But you can't win if you don't play. Revolution can yield good things, too. |
GodlessBiker |
Jan-25-11 02:58 PM |
#49 |
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I agree. They may move from a secular government if the uprising is successful. |
MidwestTransplant |
Jan-25-11 09:09 PM |
#97 |
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That was my thought. A "revolution" that makes things worse. dc |
david13 |
Jan-25-11 12:28 PM |
#14 |
  -
Revolutions usually spark because things can't get any worse |
liberation |
Jan-25-11 05:09 PM |
#77 |
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Just when you think things couldn't get any worse, they do. dc |
david13 |
Jan-25-11 08:19 PM |
#94 |
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That is usually what the ones who do not get the memo regarding the revolt say |
liberation |
Jan-26-11 02:19 AM |
#118 |
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Because the ones forced to revolt can't lose body parts, or their |
david13 |
Jan-26-11 11:41 AM |
#151 |
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Maybe if you lived under Mbarak's iron, oppressive rule |
sabrina 1 |
Jan-25-11 12:36 PM |
#18 |
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I HAVE LIVED AND WORKED THERE... |
hlthe2b |
Jan-25-11 12:46 PM |
#20 |
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There is never any guarantee that a revolution will solve |
sabrina 1 |
Jan-25-11 01:31 PM |
#26 |
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That is certainly an obvious statement... |
hlthe2b |
Jan-25-11 01:41 PM |
#27 |
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If the U.S. and other Western powers would accept |
sabrina 1 |
Jan-25-11 02:08 PM |
#30 |
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I agree.... |
hlthe2b |
Jan-25-11 02:10 PM |
#32 |
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Thank you for the civil discussion ~ |
sabrina 1 |
Jan-25-11 02:16 PM |
#34 |
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absolutely... |
hlthe2b |
Jan-25-11 02:39 PM |
#39 |
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It's refreshing to see an intelligent, civil, and agreeable disagreement |
FlaGatorJD |
Jan-25-11 03:53 PM |
#65 |
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That is very nice of you to say, thank you! |
sabrina 1 |
Jan-25-11 06:21 PM |
#87 |
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Yes, I enjoyed following |
femrap |
Jan-26-11 09:30 AM |
#142 |
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Exactamundo |
BobbyBoring |
Jan-25-11 04:44 PM |
#71 |
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These uprisings are complex, and the whole context needs to be discussed to properly understand |
liberation |
Jan-25-11 05:17 PM |
#79 |
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You miss the point in several important aspects |
hlthe2b |
Jan-25-11 06:41 PM |
#90 |
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Technically it is not that I missed the point as much as you wanted to let us know "you were there" |
liberation |
Jan-26-11 02:33 AM |
#120 |
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So one can only speak when spoken to here? |
JTFrog |
Jan-26-11 05:35 AM |
#133 |
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Good post. You would think we would learn from history |
sabrina 1 |
Jan-26-11 01:18 PM |
#153 |
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imperialism is constitutionally incapable of "giving up".... |
tomp |
Jan-26-11 05:31 AM |
#131 |
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The consequence of this and other revolutions |
dotymed |
Jan-26-11 09:03 AM |
#138 |
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an Islamic Extremist takeover in Egypt will set Israel on edge |
dugaresa |
Jan-25-11 01:15 PM |
#25 |
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they have tweeted and mostly say they want DEMOCRACY-not inherited power |
StarsInHerHair |
Jan-26-11 03:18 AM |
#123 |
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from what reporting I've been seeing and reading, it is Egyptians |
Joe Fields |
Jan-25-11 02:50 PM |
#43 |
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that's not what I am implying. I do not doubt it is all inclusive... |
hlthe2b |
Jan-25-11 02:54 PM |
#45 |
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History is replete with this problem. |
Swede |
Jan-25-11 03:21 PM |
#63 |
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No shit. I agree. Lets hope it doesn't happen. |
Confusious |
Jan-25-11 04:45 PM |
#72 |
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Yeah, the Russian Revolution comes to mind in that regard... |
Raksha |
Jan-25-11 08:44 PM |
#95 |
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Also on BBC. |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Jan-25-11 11:48 AM |
#9 |
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Live Feed on usstream |
sixmile |
Jan-25-11 12:30 PM |
#16 |
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ah the dominoes start to go |
nadinbrzezinski |
Jan-25-11 12:32 PM |
#17 |
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Just alerted the Hartmman program too |
nadinbrzezinski |
Jan-25-11 12:40 PM |
#19 |
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Solidarity with the people of Egypt. nt |
TBF |
Jan-25-11 01:12 PM |
#24 |
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horrible news |
BOG PERSON |
Jan-25-11 01:54 PM |
#28 |
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"making egypt safe for democracy in the not-too-distant future" |
Boojatta |
Jan-25-11 02:46 PM |
#41 |
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too soon tbh |
BOG PERSON |
Jan-25-11 02:53 PM |
#44 |
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I guess France and Britain aren't ready either. |
redwitch |
Jan-25-11 02:56 PM |
#48 |
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how can you be democratic or undemocratic? |
BOG PERSON |
Jan-25-11 03:13 PM |
#54 |
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Well to clarify there were 100's of thousands of people with me. |
redwitch |
Jan-25-11 03:17 PM |
#59 |
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I suppose Tunisia, nearly all of Latin America |
sabrina 1 |
Jan-25-11 03:07 PM |
#52 |
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That is circular logic. |
tekisui |
Jan-25-11 03:14 PM |
#55 |
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no, that's mob rule you're thinking of. |
BOG PERSON |
Jan-25-11 03:18 PM |
# |
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You have to demand a polling place. Dictators don't offer it up. |
tekisui |
Jan-25-11 03:19 PM |
#62 |
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Yes, which is why there is a need for a revolution when |
sabrina 1 |
Jan-25-11 06:28 PM |
#88 |
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Did you forget the Sarcasm tag? |
Puregonzo1188 |
Jan-25-11 02:56 PM |
#47 |
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Mubarak has had Egypt under emergency law since 1981 |
NuclearDem |
Jan-25-11 02:59 PM |
#50 |
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but that's "democratic" emergency law, dontcha know. nt |
tomp |
Jan-26-11 05:40 AM |
#135 |
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no he is anti-democratic |
StarsInHerHair |
Jan-26-11 03:16 AM |
#122 |
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obviously a substantial group of EGYPTIANS disagrees. |
tomp |
Jan-26-11 05:38 AM |
#134 |
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al jazeera link... |
spanone |
Jan-25-11 01:57 PM |
#29 |
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Thanks. Great pictures. But a note on Al-Jazeera |
Catherina |
Jan-25-11 11:11 PM |
#103 |
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There are two Al Jazeeras and we have to be careful not to conlfate the two |
Turborama |
Jan-26-11 01:08 AM |
#110 |
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I hope so. Thanks! n/t |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 02:14 AM |
#117 |
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Al Jazeera talk corresp Mohmd Shakir alashmawi arrested in #Egypt |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 04:11 AM |
#128 |
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Reporter on the phone now saying the protests are picking up again |
Turborama |
Jan-26-11 09:13 AM |
#139 |
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Al-Jazeera blocked |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 10:44 AM |
#147 |
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Just spotted a twitter msg saying |
rabs |
Jan-25-11 02:09 PM |
#31 |
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Great photo of one protest. |
pampango |
Jan-25-11 02:17 PM |
#35 |
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Deleted sub-thread |
Name removed |
Jan-25-11 02:25 PM |
#36 |
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One of those guys |
hulka38 |
Jan-25-11 07:12 PM |
#92 |
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Wow! More power to them. Thanks n/t |
Catherina |
Jan-25-11 11:12 PM |
#104 |
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keep updating us |
Liberal_in_LA |
Jan-25-11 02:26 PM |
#37 |
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The House of Saud |
UnrepentantLiberal |
Jan-25-11 02:36 PM |
#38 |
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No shit! Saudi Arabia is a fundamentalist theocracy already. |
Raksha |
Jan-25-11 08:50 PM |
#96 |
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They're probably worried that they are next. |
agentS |
Jan-25-11 09:57 PM |
#98 |
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I wonder what it's gonna take for us? |
Initech |
Jan-25-11 02:48 PM |
#42 |
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This is the part where we step up and ensure a peaceful transition |
NuclearDem |
Jan-25-11 03:02 PM |
#51 |
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You know damn well that will never happen. |
tekisui |
Jan-25-11 03:17 PM |
#58 |
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I know...but a man can dream, can't he? |
NuclearDem |
Jan-25-11 03:18 PM |
#61 |
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God, what American arrogance. |
aquart |
Jan-25-11 04:52 PM |
#74 |
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Ah, sorry, forgot I was being arrogant about the "bastion of human rights" |
NuclearDem |
Jan-25-11 06:09 PM |
#86 |
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Tiananmen-style moment in Cairo |
rabs |
Jan-25-11 03:14 PM |
#56 |
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GO EGYPTIANS! |
Odin2005 |
Jan-25-11 03:17 PM |
#57 |
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Power to the People! |
tekisui |
Jan-25-11 03:22 PM |
#64 |
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Which people is the question |
Confusious |
Jan-25-11 04:41 PM |
#70 |
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The people want democracy. I support that. |
tekisui |
Jan-25-11 05:01 PM |
#76 |
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Actually |
Confusious |
Jan-25-11 04:39 PM |
#69 |
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just this once i'd like to see the U.S. not support the dictator and support |
xchrom |
Jan-25-11 03:59 PM |
#66 |
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Does Egypt allow US corporations access to their oil? |
bergie321 |
Jan-25-11 05:33 PM |
#81 |
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Does Egypt have significant out? Nt |
xchrom |
Jan-25-11 06:02 PM |
#85 |
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3 dead as police battle protesters in Egypt |
Joanne98 |
Jan-25-11 04:09 PM |
#67 |
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They had to start killing people. I was hoping they would not. |
sabrina 1 |
Jan-25-11 07:01 PM |
#91 |
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I wonder |
bergie321 |
Jan-25-11 05:31 PM |
#80 |
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No, the Rethugs will be crowing that Iran is behind it and we should |
OwnedByFerrets |
Jan-25-11 07:58 PM |
#93 |
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"O Mubarak. O Mubarak. Saudi Arabia is waiting for you." |
Catherina |
Jan-25-11 11:09 PM |
#102 |
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Hillary Rodham Clinton foolishly threw the administration's weight behind Mubarak |
Catherina |
Jan-25-11 11:31 PM |
#105 |
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This may have been posted already but they shut down |
mackerel |
Jan-26-11 12:37 AM |
#106 |
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They think that's gonna stop anything? Interesting. Thanks. Someone remind |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 12:45 AM |
#107 |
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I am so enthralled. |
Kalyke |
Jan-26-11 12:54 AM |
#108 |
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"It’s raining (US-made) tear gas" |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 01:01 AM |
#109 |
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Picture |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 02:11 AM |
#116 |
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Egypt gets its Tiananmen square moment. |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 01:33 AM |
#111 |
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"They will never learn: @StateDept releases new statement " |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 01:37 AM |
#112 |
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GREAT Pictures here |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 01:41 AM |
#113 |
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Day 2. "Security forces in Alexandria joining protestors, removing uniform despite orders to shoot" |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 01:50 AM |
#114 |
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"Tonight in Cairo, the Parliament is Surrounded" (Firsthand account) |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 01:57 AM |
#115 |
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3 Gov't websites unavailable. Courtesy of Anonymous |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 02:20 AM |
#119 |
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Advice from the Tunisians, protestors gathering, Day 2 of Rage |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 03:02 AM |
#121 |
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3 badly hurt today. Protesters breaking through police barriers in Cairo |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 03:24 AM |
#124 |
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About the women. Not sure if this is true but |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 03:56 AM |
#126 |
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Egyptian stock market crashing. |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 03:45 AM |
#125 |
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I wonder how this is being reported in Iran? nt |
Javaman |
Jan-26-11 09:28 AM |
#141 |
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"Egypt on its way to democracy" |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 10:48 AM |
#148 |
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Complete crackdown on all protesters. |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 04:09 AM |
#127 |
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I remember traveling to Egypt on one of the first American tours there after Sadat took over... |
cascadiance |
Jan-26-11 04:54 AM |
#129 |
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Depressing for sure. I don't think the Egyptians have been too amused by |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 05:32 AM |
#132 |
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Thanks for keeping us informed. |
formercia |
Jan-26-11 10:14 AM |
#145 |
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You're welcome. It's fun sifting through all those twitters |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 10:42 AM |
#146 |
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Love this quote - |
TBF |
Jan-26-11 07:43 AM |
#137 |
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Mubarak's family fled to UK? |
supernova |
Jan-26-11 09:39 AM |
#143 |
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US Embassy official denied this |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 10:50 AM |
#149 |
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Live Video, ALL Internet access from #Shubra District in Cairo, Amazing photo |
Catherina |
Jan-26-11 10:53 AM |
#150 |