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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 01:40 PM
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162. Whenever presented with only two choices....
always look for a third, fourth, fifth, etc.

All societies are a mix of individualistic and egalitarian values/motives (even ours - I know, hard to believe at this late date). We have swung too far to the individualistic side of the pendulum. We're long overdue for a return to equality and communal values. The answer to our problem isn't any true version of Socialism, but until we can think of a better way to describe what we want, that term will probably be used a lot.

And that's okay. Never let your enemy scare you off from your own name. But don't let him chase you into a definition of you that doesn't fit either. Don't let him make you embrace the tarbaby. He'll be laughing his ass off at you, and you will deserve it. Define yourself. Always.
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  -We Have to go Socialist Taverner  Nov-26-11 09:32 PM   #0 
  - Recommended. nt  ZombieHorde   Nov-26-11 09:43 PM   #1 
  - We are already a socialist state . It came in through the back-door when  nineteen50   Nov-27-11 02:58 PM   #61 
     - That's not a planned socialist economy. That's capitalism at its worst.  Better Believe It   Nov-27-11 07:32 PM   #107 
     - It's Socialism for the rich -- cold hearted Capitalism for the rest of us.  txlibdem   Nov-29-11 07:59 PM   #178 
  - Nice fantasy, but it's never going to happen in the U.S. Never.  elocs   Nov-26-11 09:43 PM   #2 
  - The bigger fantasy, really, is that capitalism can remain viable  villager   Nov-26-11 10:22 PM   #11 
  - Capitalism, as understood here in the United States, demands constant growth.  Tesha   Nov-27-11 07:11 AM   #32 
  - Exactly -- like a cancer cell  villager   Nov-27-11 10:34 AM   #44 
  - Capitalism is a workable system. You just have to regulate it so  nineteen50   Nov-27-11 03:01 PM   #62 
  - IMHO It just seems like every time we have tried to regulate capitalism  Denver Progressive   Nov-27-11 08:29 PM   #123 
  - and time is running out  dothemath   Nov-27-11 04:49 PM   #82 
     - Nature requires balance for the continuation of life in all forms.  AlbertCat   Nov-27-11 09:42 PM   #136 
  - Yep. Exactly. eom  Taverner   Nov-27-11 06:08 PM   #97 
  - There might be a civil war with Texas leaving the union,  TBF   Nov-27-11 01:36 PM   #57 
  - Yes, because if we move to the right much further than the candidates  jwirr   Nov-27-11 05:28 PM   #93 
  - If Texas wants to leave  Berlin Expat   Nov-28-11 12:47 PM   #160 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-27-11 06:41 PM   #99 
  - but it's never going to happen in the U.S. Never.  AlbertCat   Nov-27-11 07:59 PM   #115 
  - That sounds like a threat  Mosaic   Nov-27-11 09:23 PM   #131 
  - Times change. There was recently a time when citizens took up arms to protect workers' rights.  LanternWaste   Nov-29-11 02:31 PM   #174 
  - Single payer health care will be here circa 2130  banned from Kos   Nov-26-11 09:46 PM   #3 
  - Single payer will be here in 10-15 years, tops. Our health care system is collapsing.  joshcryer   Nov-26-11 10:15 PM   #10 
     - The costs are high, but I doubt it dwarfs our military budget.  white_wolf   Nov-28-11 03:33 PM   #166 
  - I'm just hoping we don't have to go Tribal!....  Bigmack   Nov-26-11 09:55 PM   #4 
  - You go right ahead. I'd rather not.  NYC_SKP   Nov-26-11 10:00 PM   #5 
  - "Socialism" is a mighty big tent.  Jackpine Radical   Nov-26-11 10:07 PM   #7 
  - K & R that  freshwest   Nov-27-11 05:20 PM   #91 
  - +1  patrice   Nov-27-11 08:25 PM   #120 
  - Social democracies are neither unproven nor utopian.  PDJane   Nov-26-11 10:08 PM   #8 
  - The topic was socialism and not Euro social democracy  banned from Kos   Nov-26-11 10:13 PM   # 
  - actually, that's state socialism:  PDJane   Nov-26-11 10:32 PM   #13 
  - The super-ordinate trait would something TTE "People before profits" of which state-ownership isonly  patrice   Nov-27-11 08:29 PM   #124 
  - "public ownership of the means of production."  Mosaic   Nov-27-11 09:32 PM   #134 
  - It can't be much more wretched than your beloved capitalism.  white_wolf   Nov-28-11 03:35 PM   #167 
  - I would agree, after financial capitalism the last phase of capitalism is fascism.  nineteen50   Nov-27-11 03:06 PM   #63 
  - Those social democracies all have capitalism as the bedrock of their economies. nt  hack89   Nov-28-11 11:06 AM   #154 
  - I hate to say, but employee-owned businesses are forms of socialism, too.  Selatius   Nov-26-11 10:38 PM   #15 
  - +1  MichaelMcGuire   Nov-27-11 05:37 AM   #24 
  - They are not.  DireStrike   Nov-27-11 07:13 AM   #33 
  - What would that make insurance? socialist or communist  nineteen50   Nov-27-11 03:09 PM   #64 
  - You stole my thunder ...  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-27-11 04:37 PM   #75 
     - No irony, really. When Lenin wanted to overthrow the state, he saw that the soviets  eridani   Nov-27-11 10:22 PM   #141 
        - Exactly. nt  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-28-11 02:57 PM   #164 
  - Both Proudhon and Bakunin advocated what you call for ...  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-27-11 04:28 PM   #74 
  - That's what I think. It seems to me that many more or less different kinds of solutions would be  patrice   Nov-27-11 08:51 PM   #126 
  - I'll take Senator Sanders idea of government any day over what  OwnedByFerrets   Nov-27-11 05:12 PM   #88 
  - The problem with employee owned business.....  blindpig   Nov-28-11 02:04 PM   #163 
  - It's certainly worth looking at. nt  LWolf   Nov-26-11 10:03 PM   #6 
  - Toss the state and I'm with you on that.  joshcryer   Nov-26-11 10:13 PM   #9 
  - Actually, we are HAD by cronyism of either flavor.  jtuck004   Nov-26-11 10:28 PM   #12 
  - I think you are right. When Russia failed everyone said it was do to  nineteen50   Nov-27-11 03:13 PM   #65 
  - I'd rather not have either ...  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-27-11 04:39 PM   #76 
  - Funny how so many people jump to defend Capitalism  txlibdem   Nov-26-11 10:33 PM   #14 
  - We are all the same to the top 1%:  AlbertCat   Nov-27-11 09:51 PM   #139 
  - We are all the same to the top 1%, truth  txlibdem   Nov-28-11 06:53 AM   #148 
     - A rigid, unyielding dogma has got to be a pain in the ass...  LanternWaste   Nov-29-11 02:36 PM   #175 
  - We see places where it works fine - we want to be like them  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:24 PM   #173 
  - What does your version look like?  nobodyspecial   Nov-26-11 10:39 PM   #16 
  - kr  Norrin Radd   Nov-26-11 10:49 PM   #17 
  - We need a heavy dose of FDR.  mick063   Nov-26-11 10:52 PM   #18 
     - Welcome to DU.  Norrin Radd   Nov-27-11 03:07 AM   #21 
     - In FDR's day, 30% of Americans belonged to the Socialist or Communist Parties, that's the difference  txlibdem   Nov-27-11 06:51 AM   #27 
        - My sources have that figure well below 30%.  LanternWaste   Nov-29-11 02:52 PM   #176 
  - What you don't seem to realize...  AntiFascist   Nov-27-11 01:35 AM   #19 
  - socializing the risk?  MichaelMcGuire   Nov-27-11 05:36 AM   #23 
     - Both the risks and the losses when they lose...  AntiFascist   Nov-27-11 02:54 PM   #59 
  - We can't even nominate a very liberal Democrat without losing 49 states  Ter   Nov-27-11 01:40 AM   #20 
  - Socialism would work no better with the governance we currently have...  JCMach1   Nov-27-11 05:04 AM   #22 
  - It's the GREED that screws up any system  socialindependocrat   Nov-27-11 06:55 AM   #28 
  - You do understand that not all socialism is left wing don't you?  NNN0LHI   Nov-27-11 05:45 AM   #25 
  - The Khmer Rouge were radically left wing.  eomer   Nov-27-11 06:24 AM   #26 
  - They were communists. . .  B Calm   Nov-27-11 07:03 AM   #31 
  - Really, did they have socialized medicine and did they run a national transportation system?  ThomWV   Nov-27-11 07:20 AM   #34 
  - Yes, I actually agree with you more then me on this; let me explain better.  eomer   Nov-27-11 08:13 AM   #41 
     - But it wasn't "collective ownership of the means of production."  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-27-11 04:45 PM   #79 
     - True, in reality ownership was by a small group that was in control.  eomer   Nov-28-11 04:24 AM   #147 
     - That's a very useful distinction. :-)  patrice   Nov-27-11 09:04 PM   #129 
  - False. The Khmer Rouge folded when their leader died -- that's Fascism  txlibdem   Nov-27-11 07:26 AM   #37 
  - That is false.  former9thward   Nov-27-11 10:58 AM   #45 
  - They did nothing of note after Pol Pot was dead  txlibdem   Nov-27-11 12:42 PM   #47 
     - They did very little from 1979 until Pot died in 1998.  former9thward   Nov-27-11 03:16 PM   #68 
     - The case can be made that the state socialism/state capitalism ..  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-27-11 04:51 PM   #83 
     - Pol Pot even admited that he wasn't a communist.  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-27-11 04:48 PM   #81 
        - True communism would require the opposite of dictatorship  Mosaic   Nov-27-11 09:49 PM   #138 
           - "It's time for a paradigm change."  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-28-11 08:59 AM   #151 
  - Hahaha  MFrohike   Nov-27-11 03:23 PM   #70 
     - You can't be serious  txlibdem   Nov-27-11 07:39 PM   #109 
        - I call Leninist Communism  MFrohike   Nov-28-11 02:37 AM   #145 
           - Who are you arguing against? Pol Pot? Lenin? Mao? Do you even know???  txlibdem   Nov-28-11 06:56 AM   #149 
              - I do know  MFrohike   Nov-28-11 12:14 PM   #158 
  - No, they weren't.  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-27-11 04:43 PM   #78 
  - The term is "Regressive" - they were trying to return to Angkor...  Taverner   Nov-27-11 07:46 PM   #112 
  - That is the single stupidest thing I've read on DU in ages...  Imajika   Nov-27-11 01:33 PM   #55 
  - Khmer Rouge was a totalitarian political government.  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-27-11 04:43 PM   #77 
  - massive fail. nt  Javaman   Nov-27-11 06:58 PM   #101 
  - I could agree if only you had said DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST  B Calm   Nov-27-11 06:58 AM   #29 
  - At what level and who do you consider to the "we"?  ThomWV   Nov-27-11 06:58 AM   #30 
  - This kind of talk is like candy to the GOP  Courtesy Flush   Nov-27-11 07:21 AM   #35 
  - There is a term ...  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-27-11 04:55 PM   #85 
  - It will come to some of the regions after the breakup of the "United" States.  Tesha   Nov-27-11 07:21 AM   #36 
  - Cascadia? Socialist?  DonCoquixote   Nov-27-11 08:29 AM   #42 
  - Over the hills. But not so much in the region near the ocean.  Tesha   Nov-27-11 08:30 AM   #43 
  - So the Puget Sound isn't the "ocean" then? What mountains do you have to traverse to get from  cherokeeprogressive   Nov-27-11 12:54 PM   #51 
  - Boeing and microsoft are predominately in king county  Muskypundit   Nov-27-11 05:18 PM   #90 
  - ...  dionysus   Nov-27-11 07:58 PM   #114 
  - Yes. We won't live to see it, but yes.  Taverner   Nov-27-11 08:58 PM   #128 
  - People are starting to wake up  Harmony Blue   Nov-27-11 07:38 AM   #38 
  - K & R !!!  WillyT   Nov-27-11 07:42 AM   #39 
  - Pipe dream.  DCBob   Nov-27-11 07:49 AM   #40 
  - Well, that's your *HOPE*, anyway. Whether it's true is yet to be seen. (NT)  Tesha   Nov-27-11 12:47 PM   #48 
  - My hope is something good comes out of all of this and it doesnt just fade away like a pipe dream.  DCBob   Nov-27-11 05:22 PM   #92 
     - The focus should be on both.  Tesha   Nov-27-11 07:19 PM   #106 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-27-11 12:53 PM   #49 
  - Some change has to come about OUTSIDE the corrupt established political system  Vincardog   Nov-27-11 12:55 PM   #52 
  - But what sort of socialism? I think a huge problem  OnionPatch   Nov-27-11 11:51 AM   #46 
  - THIS is the most meaningful post in the thread. I'm admittedly not well-versed in the tenets  cherokeeprogressive   Nov-27-11 01:07 PM   #53 
  - +1. I, for one, am tired of all talk of "isms"  OneGrassRoot   Nov-27-11 01:10 PM   #54 
  - I agree get out of the box. And when your stomach is empty "isms" will not  nineteen50   Nov-27-11 03:20 PM   #69 
     - Yes! Of late I find myself suggesting we get rid of the darn box altogether. n/t  OneGrassRoot   Nov-27-11 03:40 PM   #72 
  - my personal definition, of what i'd like to see; nationalized health care, energy, and banking.  dionysus   Nov-27-11 08:07 PM   #116 
  - I have seen responses elsewhere to the kinds of issues you raise that suggest  patrice   Nov-27-11 09:25 PM   #133 
  - Glad this didn't get locked  upi402   Nov-27-11 12:53 PM   #50 
  - I'm with you on that. nt  TBF   Nov-27-11 01:35 PM   #56 
  - PLEASE DEFINE SOCIALISM  Martin Eden   Nov-27-11 02:08 PM   #58 
  - Worker control of the means of production  Taverner   Nov-27-11 06:04 PM   #96 
  - I'm in.... the Danes are the happiest people in the world.  secondwind   Nov-27-11 02:55 PM   #60 
  - They also have a market economy that embraces capitalism  hack89   Nov-28-11 10:19 AM   #152 
  - We need the same kind of socialism  sulphurdunn   Nov-27-11 03:15 PM   #66 
  - yeah. we need to let go of our minor differences of opinion and get together for the big stuff.  earcandle   Nov-27-11 03:16 PM   #67 
  - Pointless  MFrohike   Nov-27-11 03:26 PM   #71 
  - Absolutely backwards - it is the system that rewards behavior so the system  TBF   Nov-27-11 05:13 PM   #89 
     - +1000 agreed  txlibdem   Nov-27-11 08:09 PM   #118 
     - Which is done how?  MFrohike   Nov-28-11 02:38 AM   #146 
        - Your "constant vigilanace of capital" has resulted in the top 1% of the country  TBF   Nov-28-11 07:10 AM   #150 
           - Not so much, no  MFrohike   Nov-28-11 11:57 AM   #155 
              - You might call it a failure when a dictatorship of the proletariat takes over -  TBF   Nov-28-11 12:12 PM   #156 
                 - Seriously?  MFrohike   Nov-28-11 12:33 PM   #159 
                    - You've been quite explicit but you're wrong -  TBF   Nov-28-11 03:25 PM   #165 
                       - I think a Paris Commune type system is the best.  white_wolf   Nov-28-11 03:51 PM   #168 
                       - Marx recognized the PC as the first example of the dicatorship of the proletarian  TBF   Nov-28-11 04:07 PM   #169 
                       - Oh, you're adorable  MFrohike   Nov-28-11 04:11 PM   #170 
  - Solidarity Kick and Recommend!  Fantastic Anarchist   Nov-27-11 04:23 PM   #73 
  - K&R  Lunabelle   Nov-27-11 04:48 PM   #80 
  - No. You need a hybrid  jeffrey_X   Nov-27-11 04:53 PM   #84 
  - Then we need affirmative action for entreprenuers and small business  Mosaic   Nov-27-11 10:16 PM   #140 
  - Capitalism will someday finally collapse under its own rapacious greed.  ChadwickHenryWard   Nov-27-11 04:55 PM   #86 
  - I think that day may be coming sooner than some would like to admit -  TBF   Nov-28-11 12:14 PM   #157 
  - Yep. Bilderbergers don't do it alone. nt  valerief   Nov-27-11 05:03 PM   #87 
  - Humans vs, machines...where did I hear that?  Uben   Nov-27-11 05:35 PM   #94 
  - Perhaps it is time for a Butlerian Jihad, no?  Taverner   Nov-27-11 06:04 PM   #95 
     - Rise up against our robot masters because they slaughtered our bastard child?  Cid_B   Nov-27-11 06:46 PM   #100 
        - Revolutions were started for less...  Taverner   Nov-27-11 07:11 PM   #104 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-27-11 06:10 PM   #98 
  - I don't think you'll get an answer to that.  cherokeeprogressive   Nov-27-11 07:07 PM   #103 
  - Socialism is: Wresting the means of production from the capitalists to the workers  Taverner   Nov-27-11 07:13 PM   #105 
  - Social Democracy, akin to what they have in Europe  CreekDog   Nov-27-11 10:53 PM   #144 
  - I keep waiting for the clarion call from a Democratic president that will turn Reagan's  deutsey   Nov-27-11 07:05 PM   #102 
  - AMEN!  Taverner   Nov-27-11 07:34 PM   #108 
  - Privatize Profits... Socialize Debt .....  lib2DaBone   Nov-27-11 07:39 PM   #110 
  - Forgot to mention.. the "Golden Rule"...  lib2DaBone   Nov-27-11 07:41 PM   #111 
  - Disagree, appropriately regulated capitalism is the way to go  usregimechange   Nov-27-11 07:51 PM   #113 
  - Pure capitalism is a bad system because..  mvd   Nov-27-11 08:07 PM   #117 
  - 1++  patrice   Nov-27-11 09:35 PM   #135 
  - For those who choose to CO - operate, there're as many custom-made solutions, as there are problems  patrice   Nov-27-11 08:13 PM   #119 
  - I prefer Sweden's brand of capitalism. nt  hack89   Nov-27-11 08:26 PM   #121 
  - We need to brand it with a different name.  tavalon   Nov-27-11 08:28 PM   #122 
  - K&R (n/t)  a2liberal   Nov-27-11 08:44 PM   #125 
  - Indeed. That means no more divide and conquer. Immigrants, women, gays, Muslims all under the tent.  McCamy Taylor   Nov-27-11 08:52 PM   #127 
  - YES!  Taverner   Nov-27-11 09:07 PM   #130 
  - White men, women must be all under the Same Tent  Mosaic   Nov-27-11 10:35 PM   #142 
  - Good luck, the pushbacks would be tougher than 1917 and 1950's combined  CatholicEdHead   Nov-27-11 09:25 PM   #132 
  - I think that is an outdated meme  Mosaic   Nov-27-11 10:38 PM   #143 
  - John Maynard Keynes - "Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nasti  Bozita   Nov-27-11 09:45 PM   #137 
  - We have to mix more socialism in with our capitalism, you mean.  Orsino   Nov-28-11 10:37 AM   #153 
  - at least in part....  dembotoz   Nov-28-11 01:04 PM   #161 
  - Whenever presented with only two choices....  chaska   Nov-28-11 01:40 PM   #162 
  - Well, the current money system isn't working for 99% of the world  txlibdem   Nov-28-11 11:10 PM   #171 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-29-11 04:35 AM   #172 
     - Is that a statue of Adam Smith??? That would make the caption make sense.  txlibdem   Nov-29-11 07:55 PM   #177 
 

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