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Reply #140: "Jared Diamond's environmental revisionism doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny" -- !! [View All]

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
140. "Jared Diamond's environmental revisionism doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny" -- !!
Many have written about these false conclusions but even Wiki covers it --

"describes the foundation of Diamond's environmental revisionism and explains why

it does not hold up to scientific scrutiny."

: "By the time detailed observations were made in the 1880s, the old culture was virtually dead <...> It is my own suspicion that none are valid." Most of the information was "gleaned from a few surviving natives from the late nineteenth century onwards, by then decimated, demoralised and culturally impoverished population which had lost most of the collective cultural-historical memory"

The accounts and reports that cover the period between Easter's discovery in 1722 and the extermination of its culture 150 years later are fundamentally inconsistent and contradictory. When, at the start of the 20th century, the first archaeological expeditions tried to reconstruct the island's history, they stumbled upon an exhausted terrain: the indigenous population had been almost completely annihilated, its culture and natural habitat destroyed as a result of physical, cultural and environmental obliteration.

This would be "discovery" by Dutch --

{b]...research into both the causes and timing of deforestation remains contentious.

Diamond's assertion that Easter's discoverers encountered an island devoid of trees is also contradicted by Carl Friedrich Behrens, Roggeveen's officer. According to Behrens' description of the island and its inhabitants, the natives presented "palm branches as peace offerings." Their houses were "set up on wooden stakes, daubed over with luting and covered with palm leaves" (Behrens, 1903:134/135; his account was originally published in 1737).

Behrens concluded his remarkably cheerful description of Easter Island and its natural environment on a high note: "This island is a suitable and convenient place at which to obtain refreshment, as all the country is under cultivation and we saw in the distance whole tracts of woodland " (Behrens, 1903:137).

and there is much more which raises doubts -- like this --

Roggeveen maintained that Easter Island was exceptionally fertile. It produced large quantities of bananas, potatoes, and sugar-cane of extraordinary thickness. He concluded that, with careful cultivation, the island's productive soil and benign climate could be turned into an 'earthly paradise'. Captain Cook, on the other hand, was less impressed. When he visited the island 50 years later amidst high expectations (in all probability as a result of reading Behrens' upbeat report), he was disappointed by what he perceived to be an impoverished island. Yet, regardless of what may have happened in the aftermath of discovery and early visits, there are compelling reports from the late 18th century that Rapa Nui was far from being in a state of terminal decline. As Rollin, a major of the French expedition to Easter Island in 1786, underlined:

"Instead of meeting with men exhausted by famine, <...> I found, on the contrary, a considerable population, with more beauty and grace than I afterwards met in any other island; and a soil, which, with very little labour, furnished excellent provisions, and in an abundance more than sufficient for the consumption of the inhabitants" (Heyerdahl & Ferdon, 1961:57).

Also, you may be interested in this post I made elsewhere on the thread re

the more likely history of the island --


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  -The Easter Island Heads Have Bodies progressoid  Nov-13-11 06:21 PM   #0 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Nov-13-11 06:23 PM   #1 
  - Very cool. I hand not seen these shots!  Lucinda   Nov-13-11 06:24 PM   #2 
  - Wow.  TheCowsCameHome   Nov-13-11 06:25 PM   #3 
  - I had no idea!  Suich   Nov-13-11 06:28 PM   #4 
  - Soil erosion  OswegoAtheist   Nov-14-11 12:30 AM   #43 
  - That was dumb of them. Any reason why?  Maraya1969   Nov-14-11 11:27 AM   #72 
  - Not dumb...  SkyDaddy7   Nov-14-11 11:36 AM   #73 
  - I read somewhere it was due to over population.  lob1   Nov-14-11 01:00 PM   #85 
  - They probably found out by trial and error that they fell over easily.  Marnie   Nov-14-11 03:29 PM   #88 
  - and it buried them right up to the necks... exactly to the necks?  Motown_Johnny   Nov-16-11 08:54 PM   #139 
  - Diamond's research is highly opposed -- doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny --  defendandprotect   Nov-16-11 09:19 PM   #141 
  - Me neither.  sakabatou   Nov-14-11 12:38 PM   #78 
  - This is amazing. We all thought they were just heads and partial  Paper Roses   Nov-13-11 06:30 PM   #5 
  - Civilizations before us continue to provide us with clues to their amazing accomplishments.  AlbertCat   Nov-14-11 09:06 AM   #50 
  - It's stupid to think there might be intelligent life somewhere  Fawke Em   Nov-14-11 11:37 AM   #74 
     - What it is stupid is to think that every achievement by humanity  liberation   Nov-14-11 11:42 AM   #76 
        - I think you're the one with bad comprehension.  Fawke Em   Nov-14-11 12:45 PM   #80 
        - Yes, it is stupid because bold claims require extraordinary evidence  liberation   Nov-14-11 01:07 PM   #87 
           - No -- it means that we have common sense and can surmise that  defendandprotect   Nov-14-11 04:06 PM   #91 
              - Derp..  X_Digger   Nov-14-11 04:23 PM   #97 
              - That guy in the video is obviously an alien spreading misinformation  liberation   Nov-14-11 04:52 PM   #99 
              - Common sense doe not mean what you want it to mean...  liberation   Nov-14-11 04:56 PM   #101 
              - And it does not mean what you'd like it to mean ...  defendandprotect   Nov-14-11 08:43 PM   #112 
                 - Derp...  liberation   Nov-14-11 09:15 PM   #115 
                    - You mean imitating your meaningless comment is meaningless -- ? ROFL  defendandprotect   Nov-14-11 09:32 PM   #119 
                       - It was actually meaningless, and given your reply  liberation   Nov-15-11 03:05 PM   #127 
                          - Had you not made so many meaningless comments ... maybe someone would have taken you seriously ..!!  defendandprotect   Nov-15-11 11:23 PM   #131 
              - Jesus, they were so smart, yet they couldn't move a rock  Confusious   Nov-14-11 05:04 PM   #103 
              - Any number of methods  skepticscott   Nov-14-11 05:42 PM   #108 
                 - What you're saying ....  defendandprotect   Nov-14-11 08:47 PM   #113 
                    - So then you're claiming to have a time machine.  liberation   Nov-14-11 09:17 PM   #116 
                       - I have no superior knowledge any more than you do -- !!  defendandprotect   Nov-14-11 09:26 PM   #118 
                          - I can see you've gone  skepticscott   Nov-15-11 05:12 AM   #122 
                          - Thanks for making it easy ....  defendandprotect   Nov-15-11 01:14 PM   #123 
                             - Wow, you tell others to go and get "educated"  liberation   Nov-15-11 03:07 PM   #128 
                                - Why let facts get in the way of woo-woo dogma?  X_Digger   Nov-15-11 11:02 PM   #129 
                                - I didn't tell anyone to "go and get educated" ---  defendandprotect   Nov-15-11 11:19 PM   #130 
                          - Ask ANY Artist  NashVegas   Nov-16-11 08:51 PM   #138 
        - It's Tragic That There Are People Who Believe Everything Great That Ever Happened Was a Hack  NashVegas   Nov-16-11 08:43 PM   #136 
  - This is exciting!  Delphinus   Nov-14-11 09:08 AM   #51 
  - Actually, they can and have been explained.  AtheistCrusader   Nov-14-11 09:49 AM   #57 
  - "We all thought?"  liberation   Nov-14-11 11:40 AM   #75 
  - Yes they can be explained, very easily  Confusious   Nov-14-11 05:01 PM   #102 
  - At least some Rapa Nui statues also had topknots, which is why the heads are flat..  Fumesucker   Nov-13-11 06:30 PM   #6 
  - They still couldn't scratch themselves.  Hardrada   Nov-13-11 06:33 PM   #7 
  - so interesting!  stuntcat   Nov-13-11 06:34 PM   #8 
  - Yeah, but do they have any "Gum gum"?  Tesha   Nov-13-11 06:35 PM   #9 
  - LOL!  CoffeeCat   Nov-14-11 09:57 AM   #62 
  - I had no idea  DesertRat   Nov-13-11 06:40 PM   #10 
  - COOL!!!!  GoCubsGo   Nov-13-11 06:54 PM   #11 
  - FYI --  Tansy_Gold   Nov-13-11 06:55 PM   #12 
  - This is news to me. Cool!  liberalmuse   Nov-13-11 06:56 PM   #13 
  - Just like burying your buddy at the beach  thelordofhell   Nov-13-11 06:56 PM   #14 
  - I'll come back to dig you out, Frank, really...  Arugula Latte   Nov-15-11 01:31 PM   #125 
  - Easter Island continues to amaze in both its inspiration and its warning  arcane1   Nov-13-11 07:18 PM   #15 
  - Very cool of you to bring that up and point that out- I don't think many know of the warning.  Poll_Blind   Nov-13-11 09:11 PM   #33 
  - Well I for one am not aware of it.  hootinholler   Nov-13-11 10:37 PM   #39 
     - They absolutely tore through their natural resources. That's it in a nutshell.  Poll_Blind   Nov-13-11 10:51 PM   #40 
     - It fascinates me as well.  harmonicon   Nov-14-11 09:55 AM   #60 
     - Wait -- that only happened AFTER the intervention there of the white man ... !!!  defendandprotect   Nov-14-11 04:08 PM   #92 
     - Jared Diamond talks about it in Collapse  wickerwoman   Nov-14-11 12:46 PM   #82 
        - Lot of propaganda of white male history out there ---  defendandprotect   Nov-14-11 04:11 PM   #95 
        - Not every bad thing that has ever happened in history is the fault of white men  wickerwoman   Nov-14-11 05:10 PM   #105 
        - No -- but not far from the truth ---  defendandprotect   Nov-14-11 08:54 PM   #114 
        - wrong  Confusious   Nov-14-11 05:10 PM   #106 
        - d u p e  defendandprotect   Nov-14-11 04:12 PM   #96 
  - Sepressing to me, not inspirational  Yupster   Nov-14-11 09:13 AM   #54 
  - Ever since I saw the film "Rapa Nui", that's how they make me feel, also.  closeupready   Nov-14-11 04:10 PM   #93 
  - Story of Easter Island has been distorted by .....  defendandprotect   Nov-16-11 09:22 PM   #143 
  - Revisionism put forth by Diamond are unlikely ---  defendandprotect   Nov-16-11 09:20 PM   #142 
  - Very cool.  JoePhilly   Nov-13-11 07:22 PM   # 
  - Oneo f the world's great mysteries.  Blue_In_AK   Nov-13-11 07:22 PM   #16 
  - What don't you understand about them? (nt)  muriel_volestrangler   Nov-13-11 07:26 PM   #17 
  - They seem beyond whatever technology people were supposed to have back then.  Blue_In_AK   Nov-13-11 07:29 PM   #18 
     - General opinion is that wooden sledges and ropes would be enough to move them  muriel_volestrangler   Nov-13-11 07:54 PM   #23 
        - Ridiculous.  zappaman   Nov-13-11 08:05 PM   #24 
        - Don't count out a determined population of earthworms  muriel_volestrangler   Nov-13-11 08:07 PM   #25 
        - earthworms? No.  zappaman   Nov-13-11 08:11 PM   #28 
        - Tractor beams? Now that is ridiculous!!!  liberation   Nov-14-11 11:46 AM   #77 
           - You're all wrong. They're natural products of erosion.  Arugula Latte   Nov-15-11 01:33 PM   #126 
        - I read Thor Heyerdahls's book "Aku-Aku" where he claims to have witnessed...  TreasonousBastard   Nov-13-11 08:52 PM   #31 
        - Doug 'n Dave did them -- ~~~  defendandprotect   Nov-16-11 07:35 PM   #132 
  - Ancient Aliens?  AlbertCat   Nov-14-11 09:09 AM   #52 
  - Agree -- much more to their story -- may have been apart of larger island astronomical observator--!  defendandprotect   Nov-16-11 08:34 PM   #133 
  - Moving statues of those dimensions...  nenagh   Nov-13-11 07:29 PM   #19 
  - It's not a mystery.  A HERETIC I AM   Nov-13-11 08:11 PM   #27 
  - I thought you were going to say a Peterbilt and a flatbed.  cherokeeprogressive   Nov-13-11 09:18 PM   #34 
     - LOL!  A HERETIC I AM   Nov-13-11 09:41 PM   #36 
  - Agree --- and many other similar mysteries re the pyramids and other sacred sites ---  defendandprotect   Nov-16-11 08:38 PM   #134 
  - Recommend  xchrom   Nov-13-11 07:30 PM   #20 
  - If these have not already been dated this should help. Interesting.  jwirr   Nov-13-11 07:41 PM   #21 
  - They've been dated.  harmonicon   Nov-14-11 10:00 AM   #63 
     - I wonder if the newly-revealed petroglyphs  a simple pattern   Nov-14-11 12:57 PM   #83 
  - If you think about it, the only explanation is an alien race  zappaman   Nov-13-11 07:42 PM   #22 
  - You're kidding, right?  Tansy_Gold   Nov-13-11 09:09 PM   #32 
  - Sure. Humans didn't originate on that island, so yeah, you could call them aliens.  AtheistCrusader   Nov-14-11 09:54 AM   #58 
  - It just occurred to me . . . one reason to bury the statues would be to stand them upright.  mistertrickster   Nov-13-11 08:08 PM   #26 
  - But..if you did intentionally bury them why bury the writing on them?  dixiegrrrrl   Nov-13-11 08:35 PM   #29 
  - Because the petroglyphs had religious significance, not informational?  mistertrickster   Nov-13-11 08:42 PM   #30 
     - Good point, had not thought of that.  dixiegrrrrl   Nov-14-11 07:10 AM   #44 
  - why is it assumed the were buried?  TorchTheWitch   Nov-13-11 09:34 PM   #35 
     - And they didn't exactly have foundations built to code.  AtheistCrusader   Nov-14-11 09:56 AM   #61 
     - True -- and not all were buried -- two, they are reporting on here.  defendandprotect   Nov-16-11 08:41 PM   #135 
  - Cool.  krispos42   Nov-13-11 09:57 PM   #37 
  - That is so cool. I did not know.  applegrove   Nov-13-11 10:19 PM   #38 
  - I did NOT know this and I find it fascinating--thank you for posting this nt  MADem   Nov-14-11 12:12 AM   #41 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-14-11 12:26 AM   #42 
  - dupe  bloomington-lib   Nov-14-11 07:46 AM   #45 
  - I assumed they would have checked already to see if they had bodies  bloomington-lib   Nov-14-11 07:46 AM   #46 
  - Yes  progressoid   Nov-14-11 10:31 AM   #66 
  - That's really cool  Highway61   Nov-14-11 07:50 AM   #47 
  - Cool!  HappyMe   Nov-14-11 08:35 AM   #48 
  - A man is waiting for wife to give birth.  Zanzoobar   Nov-16-11 08:50 PM   #137 
  - Here ya go...  AlbertCat   Nov-14-11 09:04 AM   #49 
  - Interesting!! n/t  ceile   Nov-14-11 09:11 AM   #53 
  - Hubbie just reminded me that the society that built these collapsed because of the deforestation  mod mom   Nov-14-11 09:36 AM   #55 
  - "Jared Diamond's environmental revisionism doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny" -- !!  defendandprotect   Nov-16-11 09:16 PM   #140 
  - So cool!! Thanks for the thread, progressoid! n/t  FourScore   Nov-14-11 09:47 AM   #56 
  - Did not know that  mactime   Nov-14-11 09:54 AM   #59 
  - Cool! Never saw below their heads before.  JNelson6563   Nov-14-11 10:00 AM   #64 
  - I didn't know that -- thanks!! nt  gateley   Nov-14-11 10:10 AM   #65 
  - I had no idea. Fascinating!!  AllyCat   Nov-14-11 10:37 AM   #67 
  - This just proves that ancient aliens were there.  Tutankhamun   Nov-14-11 10:37 AM   #68 
  - LOL!  AllyCat   Nov-14-11 10:40 AM   #69 
  - That show is full of crap  sakabatou   Nov-14-11 12:39 PM   #79 
  - LOL! Good one....I watch  Berlin Expat   Nov-14-11 04:02 PM   #90 
  - Very interesting, thanks.  redqueen   Nov-14-11 10:42 AM   #70 
  - Hmm.....  Phoonzang   Nov-14-11 10:47 AM   #71 
  - Cool  Bobbie47   Nov-14-11 12:45 PM   #81 
  - I love this stuff  Rambis   Nov-14-11 12:59 PM   #84 
  - There was a comic book in the '60's(TALES TO ASTONISH?)...  zappaman   Nov-14-11 01:00 PM   #86 
  - ...  Divine Discontent   Nov-14-11 06:55 PM   #111 
     - Very cool comics! Thank you, Divine!  Tutankhamun   Nov-15-11 12:45 AM   #120 
  - Hollywood does Easter Island  bikebloke   Nov-14-11 03:40 PM   #89 
  - I loved that film.  closeupready   Nov-14-11 04:11 PM   #94 
  - The glyphs on the back say, "Want gum-gum, dumb-dumb." n/t  Ian David   Nov-14-11 04:36 PM   #98 
  - K&R (n/t)  a2liberal   Nov-14-11 04:54 PM   #100 
  - Awesome!  sonias   Nov-14-11 05:08 PM   #104 
  - Whoa. That's a lot moa Moa!  DirkGently   Nov-14-11 05:16 PM   #107 
  - It has actually been known for quite a while  skepticscott   Nov-14-11 06:06 PM   #109 
  - Thank you  liberation   Nov-14-11 09:25 PM   #117 
  - Awesome  liberal N proud   Nov-14-11 06:14 PM   #110 
  - This is awesome! Thank you for posting the OP. n/t  Tx4obama   Nov-15-11 12:55 AM   #121 
  - K&R!!  Supply Side Jesus   Nov-15-11 01:15 PM   #124 

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