Douglas Carpenter
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Fri Oct-21-11 06:17 AM
Response to Original message |
| 80. Iraq is too big to fail. In Iraq the U.S. has put itself in permanent no win situation |
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Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 06:30 AM by Douglas Carpenter
From the point of view of strategic planners - militarily supporting a popular uprising in Libya was a lot less dangerous with a lot less long term complications than unilaterally and in contemptuous disregard for world opinion invading the much more populated, much more politically strategic, much more oil rich and much more geographically strategically sensitive Iraq.
Although the Libyan intervention had considerably more international support - I would agree that its legality and perhaps its morality is questionable. But right or wrong, good or bad - in terms of strategic blunders that might undermine America's national interest - I doubt there will be that many long term negative consequences for America in regards to the Libyan intervention. America will perhaps never recover from the catastrophic strategic blunder of invading Iraq.
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| -I don't get it...why are people supporting taking down Qaddafi but not Saddam Hussein? |
dkf |
Oct-20-11 11:08 PM |
#0 |
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Saddam Hussein had more tasteful fashion sense. |
Orrex |
Oct-20-11 11:10 PM |
#1 |
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Just as an aside, I completely agree. |
PurityOfEssence |
Oct-21-11 02:46 PM |
#110 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-20-11 11:12 PM |
#2 |
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If I could rec a thousand times I would. At least someone is |
sabrina 1 |
Oct-21-11 12:15 AM |
#37 |
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It is odd how things are shaping up, isn't it? |
dkf |
Oct-21-11 02:32 AM |
#68 |
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Thousands of U.S. casualties |
ThoughtCriminal |
Oct-20-11 11:12 PM |
#3 |
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+1 |
lifesbeautifulmagic |
Oct-20-11 11:13 PM |
#4 |
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They thought Iraq would be easy. |
dkf |
Oct-20-11 11:14 PM |
#5 |
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Bush lied |
ThoughtCriminal |
Oct-20-11 11:23 PM |
#12 |
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So let's say Iraq hadn't happened, and the Shia and Kurds decide to uprise... |
dkf |
Oct-20-11 11:27 PM |
#14 |
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So it is Perpendicular |
ThoughtCriminal |
Oct-20-11 11:43 PM |
#19 |
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No George W Bush shock and awe... |
dkf |
Oct-20-11 11:55 PM |
#26 |
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That would be up to the people in Alternate-Universe Iraq |
ThoughtCriminal |
Oct-21-11 12:04 AM |
#30 |
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What do you think the no fly zones and sanctions and all the other |
alcibiades_mystery |
Oct-21-11 07:18 AM |
#88 |
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If the UN authorizes it. No one was going to intervene in Libya without UN approval. |
pampango |
Oct-21-11 03:17 PM |
#112 |
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Bush not only lied, but he was going on a UN resolution from 1991. He had no unilateral support... |
joshcryer |
Oct-21-11 12:21 AM |
#40 |
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Qaddafi was not |
polmaven |
Oct-21-11 06:32 AM |
#83 |
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This war, like Iraq, is just beginning. |
sabrina 1 |
Oct-21-11 01:16 AM |
#57 |
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According to NATO |
bighart |
Oct-21-11 09:12 AM |
#92 |
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You seem to be having a problem with simple logic.. |
Fumesucker |
Oct-20-11 11:15 PM |
#6 |
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Tribalism |
Danse |
Oct-20-11 11:19 PM |
#9 |
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Iokiyad. |
dkf |
Oct-20-11 11:20 PM |
#10 |
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Took me a minute. |
tblue |
Oct-20-11 11:53 PM |
#24 |
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That's about the size of it. nt |
RaleighNCDUer |
Oct-20-11 11:43 PM |
#18 |
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Shh! Don't reveal the secret playbook! |
Ignis |
Oct-21-11 02:37 PM |
#108 |
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I believe in the rule of law and leadership without lies or wars of plunder |
mmonk |
Oct-20-11 11:17 PM |
#7 |
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Because they're hypocrites. |
Youth Uprising |
Oct-20-11 11:19 PM |
#8 |
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I think hell just froze over. |
white_wolf |
Oct-20-11 11:21 PM |
#11 |
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I know, right? nt |
PETRUS |
Oct-20-11 11:42 PM |
#16 |
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.. |
leftstreet |
Oct-20-11 11:42 PM |
#17 |
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I feel woozy too. |
JVS |
Oct-21-11 12:18 AM |
#38 |
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Lol, I was thinking the same thing. Maybe s/he just expresses |
sabrina 1 |
Oct-21-11 01:18 AM |
#58 |
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yep! - and not the first time in my personal experience, either! |
inna |
Oct-21-11 01:31 AM |
#61 |
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Yes OP is definitely Concerned over this |
devilgrrl |
Oct-21-11 08:28 AM |
#90 |
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I think Bush the Older should have finished him off in 1991. |
ellisonz |
Oct-20-11 11:24 PM |
#13 |
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Exactly. Had we destroyed the retreating forces the Shiite uprising would have taken care of Saddam |
FarCenter |
Oct-21-11 08:48 AM |
#91 |
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That is because the coalition would have splintered |
rpannier |
Oct-22-11 04:49 AM |
#129 |
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Lets make it 2 out of 3 when Syria is next |
ProgressiveProfessor |
Oct-20-11 11:36 PM |
#15 |
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Agreed |
Danse |
Oct-20-11 11:43 PM |
#20 |
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Ug. Bush Bad. Ug. Obama Good. With us or against us. Shut up. |
PurityOfEssence |
Oct-20-11 11:47 PM |
#21 |
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It's mind-blowing. |
tblue |
Oct-20-11 11:51 PM |
#23 |
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That's pretty much the way I see it, too - |
lynne |
Oct-20-11 11:55 PM |
#25 |
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Deleted sub-thread |
Name removed |
Oct-20-11 11:51 PM |
#22 |
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I have no idea what you are talking about. |
Rex |
Oct-20-11 11:57 PM |
#27 |
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You are right. Yikes. |
dkf |
Oct-21-11 12:08 AM |
#32 |
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pan am flight 103 ?? |
spanone |
Oct-20-11 11:58 PM |
#28 |
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I am very curious to know what we said to the Brits about releasing the Pan Am bomber. |
dkf |
Oct-21-11 12:05 AM |
#31 |
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He was the *convicted* "Pan-Am bomber". He probably didn't do it. |
Spider Jerusalem |
Oct-21-11 09:17 PM |
#125 |
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That was never an issue when he became our new best friend |
sabrina 1 |
Oct-21-11 01:23 AM |
#59 |
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Who is this "we" |
thucythucy |
Oct-21-11 07:57 PM |
#119 |
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It's easy to explain. It's not who was taken down, but who's in charge at the time of the take down. |
Balbus |
Oct-21-11 12:02 AM |
#29 |
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Wrong - it's also about how you deal with Bad Guys |
ThoughtCriminal |
Oct-21-11 12:12 AM |
#36 |
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Might as well just assassinate them then. |
dkf |
Oct-21-11 12:24 AM |
#41 |
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I don't think so |
ThoughtCriminal |
Oct-21-11 12:29 AM |
#46 |
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We have a sizable chunk, maybe the majority who care more about the who than the what. |
TheKentuckian |
Oct-21-11 12:09 AM |
#33 |
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Jonestown* |
ellisonz |
Oct-21-11 02:50 AM |
#72 |
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Hehee, quite right |
TheKentuckian |
Oct-21-11 08:27 AM |
#89 |
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This time their team is doing it. |
sabrina 1 |
Oct-21-11 12:11 AM |
#34 |
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simply put with this poster, yep! |
SammyWinstonJack |
Oct-21-11 01:01 AM |
#55 |
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because there is a Dem in the White House |
TorchTheWitch |
Oct-21-11 12:11 AM |
#35 |
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Looks like you're still pursuing here arguments that arose in your other thread |
pinboy3niner |
Oct-21-11 12:20 AM |
#39 |
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Idiotic comparison. |
geek tragedy |
Oct-21-11 12:25 AM |
#42 |
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Plus, less people died than in Castro's Angola. It was a purely internationalist effort. |
joshcryer |
Oct-21-11 12:29 AM |
#45 |
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So you do support taking down Saddam Hussein. You just don't like the way we did it? |
dkf |
Oct-21-11 12:33 AM |
#47 |
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I support popular uprisings against dictators. |
geek tragedy |
Oct-21-11 12:36 AM |
#48 |
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They killed him you know...the Iraqis I mean. |
dkf |
Oct-21-11 12:45 AM |
#50 |
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After we invaded. |
geek tragedy |
Oct-21-11 12:48 AM |
#52 |
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And after we invaded Libya and according to the reports |
sabrina 1 |
Oct-21-11 03:31 PM |
#114 |
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taking out saddam was as stupid as george w bush was stupid |
ldf |
Oct-21-11 08:51 PM |
#120 |
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We should have a secret commitee |
obliviously |
Oct-21-11 12:26 AM |
#43 |
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Libya was a popular revolution with no US casualties. |
AngkorWot |
Oct-21-11 12:28 AM |
#44 |
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+1. What is so hard to understand about this? nt |
killbotfactory |
Oct-21-11 09:07 PM |
#122 |
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Simple. Bush. n/t |
greytdemocrat |
Oct-21-11 12:44 AM |
#49 |
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Many dem establishment types only supported the anti-iraq war movement for |
dameocrat67 |
Oct-21-11 12:46 AM |
#51 |
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+1 They grabbed the midterms being anti-war. Then promptly gave Bush more war $$ |
leftstreet |
Oct-21-11 01:00 AM |
#54 |
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In Libya, we aided a popular revolution in a way that minimized civilian deaths |
bhikkhu |
Oct-21-11 12:54 AM |
#53 |
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The transitional council apparently made a deal for Libyas oil profits |
dameocrat67 |
Oct-21-11 01:03 AM |
#56 |
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lol...Got a link? |
ellisonz |
Oct-21-11 02:51 AM |
#73 |
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yep |
dameocrat67 |
Oct-21-11 06:25 AM |
#82 |
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Oh - an "alleged secret deal" |
bhikkhu |
Oct-21-11 09:18 AM |
#93 |
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Well the oil wells are back working as of today, it was reported on MSNBC |
Javaman |
Oct-21-11 09:52 AM |
#96 |
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Much of Libyan production was leased out in 2004-2006 |
bhikkhu |
Oct-21-11 10:07 AM |
#97 |
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It was leased out under gaddafi... |
Javaman |
Oct-21-11 10:11 AM |
#98 |
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Nevertheless, the contracts stay the same |
bhikkhu |
Oct-21-11 10:31 AM |
#104 |
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Why would they change? It all depends on who becomes the new leader. |
Javaman |
Oct-21-11 10:50 AM |
#106 |
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" There will be a lot of tribal warfare, most of which will go unreported, to take their share..." |
ellisonz |
Oct-21-11 06:47 PM |
#115 |
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No, I have read extensively about that part of the world. |
Javaman |
Oct-22-11 12:16 AM |
#127 |
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Juan Cole: Those who expect Libya now to fragment ... are likely to be disappointed. |
pampango |
Oct-22-11 05:03 AM |
#131 |
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did I ever say fragment? |
Javaman |
Oct-22-11 07:49 AM |
#132 |
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Um, we went to Iraq initially based on lies. But we also went |
sabrina 1 |
Oct-21-11 01:30 AM |
#60 |
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"we aided a popular revolution in a way that minimized civilian deaths " |
inna |
Oct-21-11 01:39 AM |
#62 |
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Less deaths than Castro comitted in Angola. He called it an internationalist war. |
joshcryer |
Oct-21-11 02:25 AM |
#66 |
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Oy. Fucking. Vey. |
inna |
Oct-21-11 02:36 AM |
#71 |
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funny thing... |
unionworks |
Oct-21-11 01:42 AM |
#63 |
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I don't understand where we got the justification for continuing the conflict. |
BlueCheese |
Oct-21-11 01:52 AM |
#64 |
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Because the people of libya rose up |
Confusious |
Oct-21-11 02:06 AM |
#65 |
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The Iraqi people were certainly overjoyed to have Saddam gone. |
BlueCheese |
Oct-21-11 02:36 AM |
#69 |
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_ |
CJCRANE |
Oct-21-11 06:39 AM |
#85 |
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I think the answer is obvious |
bhikkhu |
Oct-21-11 10:15 AM |
#99 |
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I gave you the answer already |
Confusious |
Oct-21-11 02:39 PM |
#109 |
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I see. |
BlueCheese |
Oct-21-11 03:19 PM |
#113 |
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They asked for help, what don't you get about that? |
Confusious |
Oct-21-11 07:45 PM |
#116 |
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Last word from me. Tired of all the fighting on DU. |
BlueCheese |
Oct-21-11 09:11 PM |
#123 |
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Nice timing |
Confusious |
Oct-22-11 04:17 AM |
#128 |
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Some of the people of Libya rose up and slaughtered some other people |
eridani |
Oct-21-11 02:36 AM |
#70 |
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You make no sense. eom |
Confusious |
Oct-21-11 07:48 PM |
#117 |
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Exactly |
loyalsister |
Oct-21-11 02:52 AM |
#74 |
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It's the price tag: in terms of the number of our youth killed or maimed, |
99th_Monkey |
Oct-21-11 02:30 AM |
#67 |
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200 American civilians died in Qaddafi's attack on the Pan Am flight. How many Americans did |
pnwmom |
Oct-21-11 02:52 AM |
#75 |
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I actually never supported our involvement in... |
a la izquierda |
Oct-21-11 03:10 AM |
#76 |
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Then set your head at ease |
The Traveler |
Oct-21-11 03:14 AM |
#77 |
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Was Saddam worth $2 trillion & 5000 American lives? |
baldguy |
Oct-21-11 05:41 AM |
#78 |
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Simple really |
MrDiaz |
Oct-21-11 05:52 AM |
#79 |
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Iraq is too big to fail. In Iraq the U.S. has put itself in permanent no win situation |
Douglas Carpenter |
Oct-21-11 06:17 AM |
#80 |
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Fantastically dumb comparison. |
trumad |
Oct-21-11 06:22 AM |
#81 |
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Saddam had never attacked the US, but a significant percentage of Americans |
malaise |
Oct-21-11 06:37 AM |
#84 |
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How much US effort went into (and is still going into) taking down Saddam, vs. Qaddafi? |
eShirl |
Oct-21-11 07:06 AM |
#86 |
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Because Invading Iraq was not the right way to acheive the removal of Saddam. |
JoePhilly |
Oct-21-11 07:14 AM |
#87 |
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For me, it's Lockerbie and the murder of all those people. n/t |
Greybnk48 |
Oct-21-11 09:25 AM |
#94 |
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Because those fucking phony's don't care about war, only what they can use as a moral soapbox. |
Township75 |
Oct-21-11 09:34 AM |
#95 |
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Who is "people"? |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Oct-21-11 10:23 AM |
#100 |
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Yes too much downside when we are involved in changing other country's leaders. |
dkf |
Oct-21-11 08:56 PM |
#121 |
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It's the occupation of Iraq that I opposed. |
dawg |
Oct-21-11 10:24 AM |
#101 |
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because it's convenient |
Puzzledtraveller |
Oct-21-11 10:29 AM |
#102 |
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I must have missed our enormous invasion of Libya. nt |
Codeine |
Oct-21-11 10:31 AM |
#103 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-21-11 10:39 AM |
#105 |
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I would guess that many other people see additional perspectives |
LanternWaste |
Oct-21-11 11:02 AM |
#107 |
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Because 9-11 changed everything |
sibelian |
Oct-21-11 02:50 PM |
#111 |
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Libya was a rebellion we supported, not an invasion |
Motown_Johnny |
Oct-21-11 07:49 PM |
#118 |
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I don't get why people are apparently too thick to see the difference... |
Spider Jerusalem |
Oct-21-11 09:16 PM |
#124 |
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It's easier to intentionally blur the distinction between Obama and Bush |
Telly Savalas |
Oct-21-11 09:54 PM |
#126 |
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Oppression vs. liberation |
liberal N proud |
Oct-22-11 04:58 AM |
#130 |