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Reply #208: Yawn. Yet another lame strawman fallacy... indeed, there's "nothing to see here". [View All]

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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #204
208. Yawn. Yet another lame strawman fallacy... indeed, there's "nothing to see here".
Edited on Sat Oct-15-11 08:02 PM by ClarkUSA


:nopity:
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  -Bush only started 2 wars. Obama started 3, and kept the other 2 going. Taverner  Oct-14-11 05:30 PM   #0 
  - I'm sorry, but I disagree.  CaliforniaPeggy   Oct-14-11 05:35 PM   #1 
  - Links  Taverner   Oct-14-11 05:37 PM   #4 
     - It "was welcomed by human rights advocates who have chronicled the atrocities committed by Mr. Kony"  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 05:37 PM   # 
        - So? There were reports of Iraqi military taking babies out of incubators in Kuwait!  Taverner   Oct-14-11 05:41 PM   #13 
        - "Tom Malinowsky... of Human Rights Watch, said the group had been advocating for such a deployment."  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 05:44 PM   #16 
           - I have to wonder if these people have even heard of the Lord's Resistance Army.  AngkorWot   Oct-14-11 05:46 PM   #18 
           - I wish I was surprised at how clueless people are about them  Posteritatis   Oct-14-11 05:56 PM   #33 
              - Oh, like the Gaddhafi supporters?  AngkorWot   Oct-14-11 06:02 PM   #40 
                 - I, ah, disagree strongly with them, but I can almost sorta kinda see their POV  Posteritatis   Oct-14-11 06:09 PM   #49 
                    - It's not that they really support Gaddhafi/Kony  AngkorWot   Oct-14-11 06:13 PM   #55 
                       - I can't speak for anyone else of course, but it's not a case of  polly7   Oct-14-11 09:38 PM   #95 
           - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Oct-14-11 05:47 PM   #19 
        - The government of Uganda, you know, the one that has a death penalty for gays...  Taverner   Oct-14-11 06:11 PM   #53 
        - If that's the criterion for the US eliminating a government, then why  eridani   Oct-15-11 04:11 AM   #139 
        - If that's the criterion for the US eliminating a government, then why  eridani   Oct-15-11 04:11 AM   #140 
        - Better to get involved in Uganda than Iran.  AverageJoe90   Oct-15-11 02:39 AM   #137 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-14-11 05:36 PM   #2 
  - Obama ended the Iraq war, will end Afghanistan on schedule as well, Libya/Yemen/Uganda are not wars.  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 05:36 PM   #3 
  - So it's only a war when the President has an 'R' next to his name? Got it.  Taverner   Oct-14-11 05:37 PM   #5 
  - And it ends when a D says it ended.  rug   Oct-14-11 05:39 PM   #7 
  - No, it ends when factual sources report that it has, not when nameless Obama critics say so.  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 05:40 PM   #11 
     - So you're saying we have no troops in Iraq. Got it.  Taverner   Oct-14-11 05:48 PM   #21 
     - That's not what I said. You're making another bogus statement.  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 08:20 PM   #73 
        - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Oct-14-11 09:58 PM   #103 
     - When are you changing your avatar back?  rug   Oct-14-11 05:51 PM   #23 
  - So it's a war when you and other nameless Obama critics on the internet say it is? Got it.  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 05:39 PM   #8 
  - The Iraq war is NOT ended, with 45,000 US troops still there  Divernan   Oct-14-11 05:56 PM   #32 
  - Does that logic apply to Germany, Japan and Korea?  RegieRocker   Oct-14-11 08:26 PM   #75 
  - No US soldier is dying in Germany, Japan, and Korea  Ter   Oct-14-11 08:46 PM   #82 
  - Are you 3? Was a soldier killed in irag in the last month little one?  RegieRocker   Oct-14-11 08:54 PM   #85 
     - Plenty were killed in the last year in Iraq  Ter   Oct-14-11 09:12 PM   #89 
     - Not last year last month. Sheesh youngins.  RegieRocker   Oct-14-11 09:28 PM   #93 
        - Why limit it to a month?  Ter   Oct-14-11 09:38 PM   #96 
     - YES! 3 killed in September in Iraq; 1 so far in October  Divernan   Oct-15-11 04:10 AM   #138 
  - Nevermind. I failed to look ahead. But I still agree with the sentiment. NT  Grown2Hate   Oct-14-11 10:10 PM   #109 
  - Not to mention mercenary forces, which will be DOUBLED in Iraq after 2011.  woo me with science   Oct-14-11 08:29 PM   #77 
     - actually safer than under Bush..at least we were united before in the vileness of it all.nt  xiamiam   Oct-15-11 10:57 AM   #145 
  - absurd and disgusting.  inna   Oct-14-11 06:08 PM   #48 
  - Who's truly absurd and disgusting is PUMA Jane "Blackface" Hamsher.  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 08:27 PM   #76 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-14-11 10:01 PM   #104 
     - So says someone who is making a laughably false accusation without a shred of proof.  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 11:09 PM   #115 
     - puke, indeed.  inna   Oct-15-11 12:05 AM   #130 
     - typically low and disgusting false accusation.  inna   Oct-15-11 12:24 AM   #131 
     - No, your great leader is, but whatever.  krabigirl   Oct-15-11 11:51 AM   #164 
  - Libya/Yemen/Uganda are not wars.  SlimJimmy   Oct-14-11 07:04 PM   #68 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Oct-14-11 08:34 PM   #78 
  - US soldiers are still dying in Iraq  Ter   Oct-14-11 08:45 PM   #81 
  - Your subjective opinion is irrelevant. Combat operations ended with the war last August.  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 11:14 PM   #117 
     - So what?  Ter   Oct-15-11 12:30 AM   #132 
     - Go tell their families that their deaths were subjective and a matter of opinion.  Union Scribe   Oct-15-11 05:19 PM   #188 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Oct-14-11 09:56 PM   #102 
  - We still have troops and civilian advisers and contractors in Iraq. And Americans continue to die  totodeinhere   Oct-14-11 11:18 PM   #119 
  - Are all our people out of Iraq? If not, it's not over.  GreenPartyVoter   Oct-15-11 11:06 AM   #148 
  - The Iraq war is over? I can't believe people buy into this crap!  krabigirl   Oct-15-11 11:51 AM   #163 
  - Pakistan might as well be on the list too for all intense proposes. n/t  RKP5637   Oct-14-11 05:38 PM   #6 
  - Iraq towers over all.  Faygo Kid   Oct-14-11 05:39 PM   #9 
  - Vietnam started with just a few troops. Operation Hotfoot.  Taverner   Oct-14-11 05:44 PM   #17 
     - Yeah, I remember.  Faygo Kid   Oct-14-11 06:57 PM   #66 
  - How many troops did we lose in Libya again?  AngkorWot   Oct-14-11 05:40 PM   #10 
  - You mean how many drones crashed? How many Libyans or Yemeni were killed?  Divernan   Oct-14-11 05:48 PM   #20 
  - So... no troops then?  AngkorWot   Oct-14-11 05:54 PM   #29 
     - War by remote control weaponry is still war.  Divernan   Oct-14-11 06:01 PM   #38 
     - Yep. I'm getting sick of having to explain this.  Taverner   Oct-14-11 06:03 PM   #43 
        - my view of this thread shows a lot of ignores and at least one who will be added..keep up the good  xiamiam   Oct-15-11 11:01 AM   #146 
     - So it's okay for the US to kill civilians?  Nevernose   Oct-14-11 11:27 PM   #124 
  - how much money did we blow in libya?  frylock   Oct-14-11 06:00 PM   #37 
  - So it's about money to you?  AngkorWot   Oct-14-11 06:03 PM   #42 
  - Libyans had the highest  walerosco   Oct-14-11 06:16 PM   #57 
  - Libyans had the highest standard living in Africa.  AngkorWot   Oct-14-11 06:24 PM   #60 
     - To answer your question  walerosco   Oct-14-11 06:54 PM   #65 
        - In May 2010, Libya was voted on to the UN Human Rights Council by a huge majority.  polly7   Oct-15-11 01:12 PM   #179 
  - It depends ... Ivory Coast, not a thin dime. They got no oil,  LiberalAndProud   Oct-14-11 09:07 PM   #88 
  - So people who disagree with you can't possibly have a problem with killing, and if they have  Marr   Oct-15-11 12:43 AM   #135 
  - worth about the same as an unemployed american living on the street  frylock   Oct-15-11 12:27 PM   #176 
  - US Military Intervention in Libya Cost At Least $896 Million  OnyxCollie   Oct-14-11 10:16 PM   #110 
  - What is it 1450? There need not be a single troop on the ground to have an all out war  TheKentuckian   Oct-14-11 06:09 PM   #50 
  - Just because nobody on our side is killed doesn't mean it's not a war.  totodeinhere   Oct-14-11 11:23 PM   #122 
  - fail  thelordofhell   Oct-14-11 05:40 PM   #12 
  - troops are still in Iraq, and dying, and he started the war in Libya.  provis99   Oct-14-11 05:42 PM   #15 
  - So he armed the insurgents in Libya??  thelordofhell   Oct-14-11 05:50 PM   #22 
  - He started American involvement in it.  Taverner   Oct-14-11 05:52 PM   #24 
  - Libya did not attack Obama; Obama attacked Libya.  provis99   Oct-14-11 05:52 PM   #25 
     - "Obama attacked Libya"  AngkorWot   Oct-14-11 05:56 PM   #31 
  - Can you BELIEVE they keep saying O ENDED the war in Iraq? w/ 45,000 troops still there?  Divernan   Oct-14-11 05:59 PM   #36 
     - Does that logic apply to Germany, Japan and Korea?  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 08:41 PM   #79 
     - Actually, he should withdraw those troops as well. n/t  totodeinhere   Oct-14-11 11:26 PM   #123 
     - THREE US SOLDIERS KILLED IN IRAQ IN SEPTEMBER; 1 SO FAR IN OCTOBER  Divernan   Oct-15-11 04:13 AM   #141 
     - They've clawed out their eyes so they can't see.  Union Scribe   Oct-15-11 05:22 PM   #190 
  - US military pushing O for up to 18,000 troops to remain in Iraq  Divernan   Oct-14-11 05:53 PM   #26 
     - Have you always been as outraged at US troops in Germany, Japan, and Korea?  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 08:42 PM   #80 
     - how many us troops were killed in combat last month in germany, japan, or korea?  frylock   Oct-15-11 12:38 PM   #178 
     - US plans $3 BILLION mercenary force in Iraq for 2012  Divernan   Oct-15-11 04:33 AM   #142 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Oct-14-11 05:41 PM   #14 
  - Posts like this make my inner historian start mainlining aspirin. (nt)  Posteritatis   Oct-14-11 05:54 PM   #27 
  - Google 'Operation Hotfoot' and then get back to me  Taverner   Oct-14-11 06:02 PM   #41 
     - Because everything now turns out identically to something that happened fifty years ago. Right. (nt)  Posteritatis   Oct-14-11 06:10 PM   #52 
        - I'm just saying, once we deploy troops somewhere, it's hard to get out  Taverner   Oct-14-11 06:14 PM   #56 
           - I guess that means we're still at war with Germany then.  uppityperson   Oct-14-11 10:06 PM   #106 
              - Yes. Yes it does. nt  Taverner   Oct-14-11 10:27 PM   #112 
              - Huh. Should've used the sarcasm smiley then. eom  uppityperson   Oct-14-11 11:08 PM   #114 
                 - We're technically at war with anywhere we have a base  Taverner   Oct-15-11 12:31 AM   #133 
                    - If THAT is your definition, you are really reaching. Wish I could unrec this again  uppityperson   Oct-15-11 04:50 PM   #185 
                       - So you think the empire is a good thing?  Taverner   Oct-15-11 04:54 PM   #186 
                          - No. I also don't think we are "at war" with any country that has a base in it.  uppityperson   Oct-15-11 05:10 PM   #187 
                             - If they weren't "allies" we would crush them  Taverner   Oct-15-11 05:21 PM   #189 
              - Uh oh. Somebody better tell the Aussies that we're at WAR with them!!one!1  Number23   Oct-15-11 05:41 PM   #195 
  - Obama vs McCain  libinnyandia   Oct-14-11 05:54 PM   #28 
  - Most assuredly we would be in Iran. But at least DU would be against the war.  Taverner   Oct-14-11 06:01 PM   #39 
  - don't kid yourself. we will be in Iran soon enough.  krabigirl   Oct-15-11 11:52 AM   #165 
  - And both men are/were quite happy to let their "good buddies"  truedelphi   Oct-14-11 05:56 PM   #30 
  - that's nice.  dionysus   Oct-14-11 05:58 PM   #34 
  - 238...  Itchinjim   Oct-14-11 05:59 PM   #35 
  - 745...  Taverner   Oct-14-11 06:04 PM   #44 
  - I read your links  Mz Pip   Oct-14-11 06:05 PM   #45 
  - Vietnam started with just 100 troops  Taverner   Oct-14-11 06:07 PM   #47 
     - So? n/t  Mz Pip   Oct-14-11 06:10 PM   #51 
        - Like I said to another poster, let's talk in five years  Taverner   Oct-14-11 06:13 PM   #54 
           - Then wait 5 years  Mz Pip   Oct-14-11 06:18 PM   #58 
              - But he did...  Taverner   Oct-14-11 06:19 PM   #59 
              - Considering all three were ongoing for some time, there really is. (nt)  Posteritatis   Oct-14-11 09:26 PM   #92 
                 - So political survival is worth anyone we kill? Got it!  Taverner   Oct-14-11 09:54 PM   #101 
                    - No, it means he didn't start them. You are really reaching here. Complain about US involvement if  uppityperson   Oct-14-11 10:08 PM   #107 
                    - Keep fabricating statements to respond to; it beats responding to peoples' words, after all. (nt)  Posteritatis   Oct-14-11 11:34 PM   #126 
              - sending drones into yemen and somalia is war..when someone pushes a button in nevada  xiamiam   Oct-15-11 11:06 AM   #147 
  - Yeah but those were much smaller wars and they were started  Rex   Oct-14-11 06:07 PM   #46 
  - Huh?  Tarheel_Dem   Oct-14-11 06:33 PM   #61 
  - Hey that was OMC's typical reponse  U4ikLefty   Oct-14-11 10:16 PM   #111 
  - K & R !!! - But... Well, You Know...  WillyT   Oct-14-11 06:35 PM   #62 
  - There were no wars in Libya, Yemen or Uganada prior to Obama's intervention?  LanternWaste   Oct-14-11 06:48 PM   #63 
  - So you supported Bill Clinton staying out of the Rwanda genocide?  moondust   Oct-14-11 06:54 PM   #64 
  - if he would have got a declaration of war from congress  belcffub   Oct-14-11 08:10 PM   #71 
     - You do know this was thoroughly approved by Congress, right? (nt)  Posteritatis   Oct-14-11 09:24 PM   #91 
        - in rawanda???  belcffub   Oct-15-11 11:30 AM   #156 
           - Ack! No, I meant Uganda  Posteritatis   Oct-15-11 12:26 PM   #175 
  - Yup, all by himself President Obama started wars in Libya, Yemen, and Uganda.  11 Bravo   Oct-14-11 07:03 PM   #67 
  - Oh. Horse. Shit.  Rosco T.   Oct-14-11 07:17 PM   #69 
  - I was thinking maybe a cry for attention  Major Nikon   Oct-14-11 08:58 PM   #86 
  - I was gonna say "bullshit", but  madamesilverspurs   Oct-14-11 07:26 PM   #70 
  - Agree to disagree MSS?  Taverner   Oct-14-11 09:48 PM   #99 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-14-11 08:10 PM   #72 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-14-11 08:59 PM   #87 
  - War is unhealthy for children and other living things  Taverner   Oct-14-11 09:47 PM   #98 
     - Perfect. Nothing sums up your intellectual heft quite so well as a 40 year old bumper sticker.  11 Bravo   Oct-15-11 11:27 AM   #154 
  - Self delete  RegieRocker   Oct-14-11 08:24 PM   #74 
  - Selective Outrage about War  joshcryer   Oct-14-11 08:52 PM   #83 
  - You gonna keyboard warrior this campaign too?  Union Scribe   Oct-15-11 05:24 PM   #191 
  - WTF.  cliffordu   Oct-14-11 08:52 PM   #84 
  - WTF is wrong with me? Sorry, I like peace, love and understanding. Not war, mahem and death. NT  Taverner   Oct-14-11 09:46 PM   #97 
     - i agree with you..and so do the millenials.supporting this nonsense because obama does it is obscene  xiamiam   Oct-15-11 11:13 AM   #149 
     - Blah. You still take part in WHY we there, ya know, that  cliffordu   Oct-16-11 02:11 AM   #211 
  - No mention of Somalia?  Riftaxe   Oct-14-11 09:19 PM   #90 
  - Un-recced. Sigh.  madinmaryland   Oct-14-11 09:35 PM   #94 
  - K&R  Fumesucker   Oct-14-11 09:51 PM   #100 
  - K&R- lotta people sucking up to military adventurism they wouldn't have stood for under Bush.  Poll_Blind   Oct-14-11 10:04 PM   #105 
  - It's an acquired taste, apparently.  chill_wind   Oct-15-11 12:44 AM   #136 
  - Yep. It's almost like this was intended.  krabigirl   Oct-15-11 11:49 AM   #162 
  - unrec for hyperbole. Complain about US involvement if you want, but no, he didn't start  uppityperson   Oct-14-11 10:10 PM   #108 
  - Very good point.  Vidar   Oct-14-11 10:45 PM   #113 
  - POTUS Obama is a War POTUS by nature alas. nt  PufPuf23   Oct-14-11 11:13 PM   #116 
  - Bullshit rhetoric are baseless attacks by nature alas. nt  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 11:17 PM   #118 
     - Some posters at DU have no credibility alas. nt  PufPuf23   Oct-14-11 11:19 PM   #120 
        - That explains the number of recs for this OP.  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 11:22 PM   #121 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-15-11 05:26 PM   #192 
  - War is only bad if a republican is president.  deaniac21   Oct-14-11 11:32 PM   #125 
  - Amazing... OP states a fact and is attacked. Pathetic. nt  GSLevel9   Oct-14-11 11:39 PM   #127 
  - No, the OP was a dishonest, ignorant whine.  geek tragedy   Oct-14-11 11:51 PM   #128 
  - OP spouts subjective negative rhetoric about Pres. Obama w/o a shred of proof and is called on it.  ClarkUSA   Oct-14-11 11:52 PM   #129 
     - Just assume Bush sent armed troops to Uganda, or bombed Libya  Dreamer Tatum   Oct-15-11 12:33 AM   #134 
        - In "mighty D" land, oxymorons abound, flourish and multiply.  Divernan   Oct-15-11 04:45 AM   #143 
        - amazing, isn't it..for a wicked policy which has no upside..nt  xiamiam   Oct-15-11 11:15 AM   #150 
           - Who's truly wicked is the leader of the LRA. Human Rights Watch has long asked for this deployment.  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 11:21 AM   #152 
              - OMG He's worse than Hitler! He's an evil doer! He's part of an axis of evil!  Taverner   Oct-15-11 11:29 AM   #155 
                 - "ordering village massacres, recruiting prepubescent soldiers, keeping harems of child brides and.."  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 11:48 AM   #161 
                    - The problem with that argument is  Harmony Blue   Oct-15-11 11:54 AM   #166 
                       - This is not about Uganda; it's about protecting the people of 4 African nations from LRA's brutality  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 11:56 AM   #169 
                          - We know about the LRA very well  Harmony Blue   Oct-15-11 12:00 PM   #171 
                             - That's a red herring. Again this is not about supporting the Uganda government.  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 12:03 PM   #173 
                                - "We" are choosing to be part of this civil war  Harmony Blue   Oct-15-11 01:19 PM   #180 
                                   - President Obama is doing for 4 nations what human rights groups have wanted for a long time.  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 02:58 PM   #183 
        - If human rights groups or the U.N. asked for the deployment or intervention, I'd be 100% supportive.  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 11:16 AM   #151 
  - SOCOM. Bush- 60 countries. Obama 120 countries by end of 2011  chill_wind   Oct-15-11 10:27 AM   #144 
  - Jeremy Scahill is fearmongering media whore. Still waiting for BushCo to invade Iran...  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 11:23 AM   #153 
     - Them's just the facts, Jack.  chill_wind   Oct-15-11 11:31 AM   #157 
        - You had to dig up an old news story from June 3 for that boogeyman nugget? Glad they nailed OBL!  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 11:46 AM   #158 
           - Again, just the facts and reality. n/t  chill_wind   Oct-15-11 11:54 AM   #168 
              - "reality" = Special Ops is doing a great job under Pres. Obama, far better than BushCo.  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 11:58 AM   #170 
  - Damn, I am feeling the FAIL of this thread right now.  dionysus   Oct-15-11 11:47 AM   #159 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-15-11 05:29 PM   #193 
  - I know. It's pretty epic. Up there with the Seabiscuit "Hillary will WIN!!one" variety  Number23   Oct-15-11 05:50 PM   #196 
  - Yep. Don't forget the drone attacks in pakistan and somalia as well.  krabigirl   Oct-15-11 11:48 AM   #160 
  - Senator Obama, 12-20-2007  bvar22   Oct-15-11 11:54 AM   #167 
  - Well, it's a good thing he didn't do that in this case, isn't it? (nt)  Posteritatis   Oct-15-11 12:28 PM   #177 
  - We have two pro-war parties in this country  MNBrewer   Oct-15-11 12:02 PM   #172 
  - We have folks on both sides of the aisle who are always attacking anything Pres. Obama does.  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 12:07 PM   #174 
     - I'm sorry if some of us think war is a bad way to solve problems  Taverner   Oct-15-11 04:48 PM   #184 
     - Glad Pres. O is saving lives."Human Rights Group Welcomes Obamas Decision to Send Troops to Uganda"  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 06:58 PM   #197 
        - You keep touting that one human rights group.  Taverner   Oct-15-11 07:02 PM   #198 
           - You keep making false accusations & revealing you could care less about stopping LRA's brutality.  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 07:06 PM   #199 
              - No - because at least I am consistent NT  Taverner   Oct-15-11 07:06 PM   #200 
                 - So you're fine with making false accusations & not wanting to stop LRA because you're "consistent".  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 07:09 PM   #201 
                    - I am fine with not going to war with anyone who's resources we want  Taverner   Oct-15-11 07:10 PM   #202 
                       - That's not what you said via Post #202 in reply to my Post #201 where I asked you this question -->  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 07:24 PM   #203 
                          - I am consistently anti-war. Your problem?  Taverner   Oct-15-11 07:52 PM   #206 
                             - So you believe WWII shouldn't have been fought and that we should have stayed the British colonies?  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 07:54 PM   #207 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-15-11 05:31 PM   #194 
     - Never anything outrageous comes from the Obama administration  MNBrewer   Oct-15-11 07:34 PM   #204 
        - Yawn. Yet another lame strawman fallacy... indeed, there's "nothing to see here".  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 08:01 PM   #208 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-15-11 02:16 PM   #181 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-15-11 02:17 PM   #182 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-15-11 07:38 PM   #205 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-15-11 08:17 PM   #209 
        - If we are to survive, our loyalties must be broadened further, to include the whole human community.  ClarkUSA   Oct-15-11 08:46 PM   #210 
 

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