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Reply #46: Oh, dear. Sounds great. How do you accomplish having the [View All]

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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-11 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Oh, dear. Sounds great. How do you accomplish having the
Edited on Mon Oct-10-11 07:09 PM by MineralMan
workers own the means of production, exactly? Those are lofty goals, and you're absolutely right about that being a good thing. So, get me from here to there. You don't have to provide all the details - just the framework with some basic steps in the process. I'll be waiting for your plan. I've been waiting for 40 years for such a plan.Frankly, I'm not bright enough to come up with one, although I've tried. Maybe you have the answer, but it's going to take more than slogans that date back over 100 years, I'm afraid. You've provided a slogan. Now match it with a plan. I've read Marx and Engels, too, and Lenin and all the others. What's your plan to move from here to there?

By the way, I've owned the means of my production since 1974. I produce goods and sell them. The goods change from time to time, but I own the means of production. It's worked OK, but not great. Right now, it's not working so well, but I continue to do as I have always done - make a living by my wits. It's how I live. I'd love it if everyone could do the same. It's not easy. Sometimes, it seems impossible. I'm a bright guy, and I have struggled to make ends meet a number of times in those almost 40 years. So, how does a guy who has worked in a factory all his life do it. What's he going to produce? Where does he get the equipment needed to do that production? What do you do to earn your keep?

Lots of questions - damned few answers. It's time to come up with some answers.
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  -Capitalism IS the problem Taverner  Oct-10-11 06:13 PM   #0 
  - Free trade, no tariffs. That fucked us over. nt  valerief   Oct-10-11 06:15 PM   #1 
  - But what led to free trade and no tariffs?  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:18 PM   #3 
  - Part of "Globalism" was killing unions  War Horse   Oct-10-11 06:27 PM   #11 
  - Capitalism is capitalism whether national or global.  Unvanguard   Oct-10-11 07:48 PM   #64 
  - Yet it gives us New technology, pharmaceuticals, entertainment and a lot of the pleasures in life.  dkf   Oct-10-11 06:18 PM   #2 
  - Capitalism is not the only way to provide incentives  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:19 PM   #5 
  - How do you reward achievements with money and not be capitalist?  dkf   Oct-10-11 06:22 PM   #7 
     - Is the Nobel prize a capitalist reward?  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:24 PM   #9 
     - Yes it is...  dkf   Oct-10-11 06:31 PM   #14 
     - Nobel was a capitalist, but that doesn't mean the prize is  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:33 PM   #16 
        - 0bama got $1.4 million for his prize.  dkf   Oct-10-11 06:36 PM   #21 
           - Yes...and?  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:36 PM   #24 
           - It's a nice chunk of change.  dkf   Oct-10-11 06:50 PM   #36 
              - Too bad he never earned a penny of that change,  white_wolf   Oct-10-11 06:52 PM   #39 
                 - They produce retirements for state pensioners.  dkf   Oct-10-11 07:19 PM   #56 
                    - No they don't.  white_wolf   Oct-10-11 07:29 PM   #59 
           - Exactly what did he do to win the prize?  Synicus Maximus   Oct-10-11 07:02 PM   #47 
              - Dunno. Doesn't seem like the ultimate in incentivizing though does it?  dkf   Oct-10-11 07:16 PM   #55 
                 - It's an example  Taverner   Oct-10-11 09:37 PM   #80 
     - If you reward with bonuses, that is capitalism. Money based on work effort and  Honeycombe8   Oct-10-11 09:16 PM   #73 
     - Why does a hedge fund manager get a bigger reward than the person who collects your garbage?  leftstreet   Oct-10-11 06:25 PM   #10 
        - Maybe because anyone who can walk and lift 50 pounds can collect garbage?  pipoman   Oct-10-11 06:34 PM   #17 
        - ...and anyone with a keyboard can be a hedge fund manager  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:35 PM   #20 
        - How do you know I haven't?  pipoman   Oct-10-11 06:57 PM   #45 
        - Who says the hedge fund managers are qualified or successful? Can you say 'bailout'?  LooseWilly   Oct-11-11 01:50 AM   #100 
           - Unqualified, unsuccessful hedge managers  pipoman   Oct-11-11 06:00 AM   #105 
        - So...go try and be a hedge fund manager. First, spend hundreds of thousands of  Honeycombe8   Oct-10-11 09:20 PM   #74 
        - "There are a lot of those jobs around"  Taverner   Oct-10-11 09:37 PM   #81 
        - Besides, what GOOD is a hedge fund manager? Anwser: Useless  Taverner   Oct-10-11 09:39 PM   #82 
        - Oh THIS conversation again...Anybody can do any job  snooper2   Oct-11-11 10:12 AM   #122 
        - Geez, basic Marxism. Perceived value of labor vs. actual value of labor. And yes, a garbage collecto  anneboleyn   Oct-10-11 10:09 PM   #84 
           - OFTLOF  pipoman   Oct-11-11 06:07 AM   #106 
              - The point is garbage collectors perform a far more important task than the hedge fund managers,  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 10:08 AM   #121 
                 - I know some in these parts are die-hard idealists  pipoman   Oct-11-11 06:46 PM   #203 
        - Why does he lose half his assets in 10 months whereas the person collecting your garbage still gets  dkf   Oct-10-11 06:34 PM   #19 
        - lol let me get my violin  leftstreet   Oct-10-11 06:37 PM   #25 
           - Well that's how he makes a lot and loses a lot  dkf   Oct-10-11 06:52 PM   #38 
        - The People Who Collect the Garbage Do Not Speak English  AndyTiedye   Oct-11-11 11:25 PM   #204 
  - The Space Program gave us alot of good stuff too.  Billypenn   Oct-11-11 09:57 AM   #117 
  - K&R  leftstreet   Oct-10-11 06:18 PM   #4 
  - capitalism with regulation worked so well that people stopped paying attention to gov't here  yurbud   Oct-10-11 06:20 PM   #6 
  - Not sure how well it worked  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:22 PM   #8 
  - that is a completely different argument, unrelated to capitalism.  Joe Fields   Oct-11-11 12:21 AM   #98 
     - I disagree. I think it is essential in the understanding of Capitalism.  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:15 PM   #167 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-11-11 01:55 AM   #102 
  - So what is the alternative  War Horse   Oct-10-11 06:30 PM   #12 
  - Yeah, what is the alternative to letting rich people profit from our labor?  leftstreet   Oct-10-11 06:32 PM   #15 
  - So you've reached a level of political enlightenment  War Horse   Oct-10-11 06:41 PM   #27 
  - I'll give you a list of alternatives...  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:44 PM   #29 
  - A few disagreements.  white_wolf   Oct-10-11 06:48 PM   #34 
     - All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communist  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:55 PM   #41 
  - No, I haven't even cracked a beer  leftstreet   Oct-10-11 06:44 PM   #30 
  - Alternatives Are, Be Self-Employed, Work for a Cooperative or a Non-Profit or a Government Agency  AndyTiedye   Oct-10-11 10:43 PM   #86 
  - The answer of "what we should do now" is to find an answer to this question  ChillbertKChesterton   Oct-10-11 06:34 PM   #18 
  - Then you can move along without me  War Horse   Oct-10-11 06:53 PM   # 
     - There's no way real social change can happen without it  ChillbertKChesterton   Oct-10-11 09:00 PM   #71 
  - The alternative is to scrap capitalism  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:36 PM   #22 
  - I wonder if folks said to George Washington "so what is the alternative"  TBF   Oct-10-11 06:42 PM   #28 
  - People say "well if you don't have an alternative, you shouldn't criticize Capitalism!"  ChillbertKChesterton   Oct-10-11 06:31 PM   #13 
  - all systems that totally eradicated capitalism have been impoverished totalitarian nightmares  Douglas Carpenter   Oct-10-11 06:36 PM   #23 
  - Yet Capitalism itself leads to impoverished totalitarian nightmares  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:38 PM   #26 
     - l modern Europe has shown a workable alternative - not perfect - but something that actually works  Douglas Carpenter   Oct-10-11 06:50 PM   #35 
  - No,UNREGULATED Capitalism is the problem  rustydog   Oct-10-11 06:45 PM   #31 
  - The problem is, Capitalism provides motivation to buy the regulators  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:47 PM   #32 
     - I'll have to give you that  War Horse   Oct-10-11 07:10 PM   #51 
     - Greed provides the motivation. No matter what system.  Gregorian   Oct-10-11 07:41 PM   #62 
     - Agreed  workinclasszero   Oct-10-11 07:49 PM   #65 
     - And there is no incentive to bribe government officials in Socialism? (nt)  Nederland   Oct-10-11 07:50 PM   #66 
  - Democratic Socialism IS the answer.  roamer65   Oct-10-11 06:48 PM   #33 
  - UNREGULATED Capitalism.  OHdem10   Oct-10-11 06:51 PM   #37 
  - OK. Then, it's time to find a path to a non-capitalistic  MineralMan   Oct-10-11 06:53 PM   #40 
  - If workers owned the means of production, how would millions starve to death?  leftstreet   Oct-10-11 06:55 PM   #42 
  - Oh, dear. Sounds great. How do you accomplish having the  MineralMan   Oct-10-11 06:59 PM   #46 
     - You didn't answer the question n/t  leftstreet   Oct-10-11 07:13 PM   #53 
     - Nor did you answer mine. I asked for a path, you provided an  MineralMan   Oct-10-11 07:35 PM   #60 
        - Why do you want a path to a system you say will kill millions? n/t  leftstreet   Oct-10-11 07:40 PM   #61 
     - Howzabout Capitalism Dominated by Worker-Owned Businesses?  AndyTiedye   Oct-10-11 08:35 PM   #68 
        - If *all* companies were employee owned - that would fall under the definition of Socialism  Taverner   Oct-10-11 09:34 PM   #78 
           - That would be Mutualism. An influential early form of anarchism.  white_wolf   Oct-10-11 10:11 PM   #85 
  - Economist David Ricardo suggested Social Democracy as a tranition phase  Taverner   Oct-10-11 06:57 PM   #44 
     - And how do you put people in control of the means of production,  MineralMan   Oct-10-11 07:03 PM   #48 
        - How do we get there? Nationalize certain companies. I'd start with Big Pharm.  Taverner   Oct-10-11 09:24 PM   #77 
        - When the Oil Companies Fuck Up Big Time, Cancel their Leases  AndyTiedye   Oct-10-11 11:37 PM   #94 
        - But that's just it - Capitalism won't let that happen  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:56 AM   #164 
        - It's easy to compensate the shareholders  socialist_n_TN   Oct-11-11 02:24 PM   #201 
        - You do realize that there is no current way to nationalize  MineralMan   Oct-11-11 07:58 AM   #107 
           - And that's where the conversation ends...  snooper2   Oct-11-11 10:14 AM   #123 
           - As a wise DU'er wrote in a different thread...  SidDithers   Oct-11-11 10:22 AM   #126 
           - That's what's so frustrating to me. I have lofty goals, too,  MineralMan   Oct-11-11 10:28 AM   #129 
           - At the rate we are going now, there won't be an "America" in twenty or so years  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:23 AM   #146 
           - We need a brand new government  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:21 AM   #143 
           - Industries have been nationalized before.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 10:20 AM   #125 
           - Yes, but getting Congress to authorize such things isn't so  MineralMan   Oct-11-11 10:30 AM   #130 
           - Congress has utterly failed. Fire them all, and then sue them for fraud. nt  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:22 AM   #145 
           - Thanks. I couldn't think of the instance, but I knew there was a precedent.  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:21 AM   #144 
           - That doesn't stop the government from doing other things it's not authorized to do  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:19 AM   #142 
        - Not Taverner, but I'd just wait till they crashed  socialist_n_TN   Oct-11-11 02:20 PM   #200 
  - It worked for a while.  moondust   Oct-10-11 06:56 PM   #43 
  - Corporatism is the problem, not capitalism.  Rex   Oct-10-11 07:04 PM   #49 
  - Wrong. Corporatism is Capitalism in it's final stage.  Odin2005   Oct-10-11 07:13 PM   #54 
     - Yep. It's a form of Imperialism. As Lenin said it's the highest stage of capitalism.  white_wolf   Oct-10-11 07:28 PM   #58 
  - Imagine  Zanzoobar   Oct-10-11 07:09 PM   #50 
  - I see the Capitalism defenders have arrived. UGH!  Odin2005   Oct-10-11 07:12 PM   #52 
  - do you not see a little irony in saying that and having a Howard Dean avatar?  Douglas Carpenter   Oct-10-11 07:21 PM   #57 
  - Absolutely true. The weasel word "corporatism" just distorts this fact.  Unvanguard   Oct-10-11 07:47 PM   #63 
  - Unregulated Capitalism is the enemy of workingmen.  demosincebirth   Oct-10-11 08:03 PM   #67 
  - K&R.  Vidar   Oct-10-11 08:39 PM   #69 
  - Here we go again. Every time things get tough it's capitalism's fault, but...  TreasonousBastard   Oct-10-11 08:56 PM   #70 
  - Capitalism works well for a few, but not the majority.  white_wolf   Oct-10-11 09:04 PM   #72 
  - But still no alternative.  TreasonousBastard   Oct-10-11 09:20 PM   #75 
     - We have an alternative. It's called socialism.  white_wolf   Oct-10-11 09:24 PM   #76 
        - What are the ills of socialism?  itsallhappening   Oct-10-11 09:44 PM   #83 
        - Hello?  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 08:34 AM   #109 
        - Why don't you tell me what you think they are and I will address them.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 09:41 AM   #112 
           - We could start with all the failed socialist states.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 09:48 AM   #113 
              - Your one flaw doesn't exist.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 09:50 AM   #115 
              - That's exactly what it is.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 10:00 AM   #119 
              - Oh, so we are judging an ideology based upon the atrocities committed in it's name, are we?  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 10:06 AM   #120 
                 - No.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 10:26 AM   #128 
                    - Your first sentence shows you are completely ignorant of socialism.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 10:34 AM   #132 
                    - Wow.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 10:49 AM   #135 
                    - Hitler WAS a Capitalist  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:39 AM   #154 
                       - You know when Hitler was asked about socialism he made it clear that his socialism wasn't Marxism.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 11:43 AM   #156 
                       - Nope.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:23 PM   #172 
                          - Have you ever even TAKEN a class on economics?  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:29 PM   #178 
                             - Read some history.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:34 PM   #181 
                                - He did not nationalize the German Auto Industry  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:38 PM   #183 
                                   - You need a remedial history class.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:42 PM   #188 
                                   - OK, then by your definition, Obama "Nationalized" the banks.  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:43 PM   #189 
                                   - Show sources that prove your claims that Hitler nationalized the majority of industry in Germany.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 12:46 PM   #192 
                    - By the way, I realize you said you were done, but I'm sorry you didn't get to  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 11:03 AM   #137 
                       - Wow - wishing death - how...Capitalist of you  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:43 AM   #157 
                          - You know I put the person your replying to on ignore, but I think I'm missing some funny stuff.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 11:45 AM   # 
                          - The poster wished you got to experience Pol Pot and the USSR  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:02 PM   #165 
                          - He's the one idolizing those societies.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:17 PM   #168 
                             - Everyone having a job is much better than people starving  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:19 PM   #170 
                             - You've created a false choice.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:23 PM   #173 
                                - You cannot feed everyone under a Capitalist system  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:26 PM   #177 
                                   - You can't feed everyone under any system.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:36 PM   #182 
                                   - We grow enough food to keep everyone on the planet well fed.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 12:41 PM   #186 
                                   - Explain the method by which you would accomplish that  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:44 PM   #190 
                             - That is such bullshit. I've never said I idolize the USSR.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 12:24 PM   #174 
                                - Judging from your posts, you're going on nothing more than  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:30 PM   #179 
                    - "The socialist system requires individuals to abandon free will and individual rights"  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:37 AM   #153 
                       - Which is why Ayn Rand idolized one of them.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 11:44 AM   #158 
                          - Yep - William Hickman. She would have loved Ted Bundy too  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:46 AM   #160 
              - Forgot to ask...  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 10:33 AM   #131 
                 - The only "right" socialism takes away is the "right" to own private property.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 10:36 AM   #134 
                    - Yeah, just that little insignificant right. LOL  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 10:53 AM   #136 
                       - The Capitalists have turned the means of production against the workers  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:25 AM   #148 
                       - What a strange analogy.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:18 PM   #169 
                          - "Productive People"???? The only thing they produce IS death  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:20 PM   #171 
                             - Wow, I think we have an Ayn Rand fan on our hands.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 12:25 PM   #175 
                             - Okay, Captain Hyperbole.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:26 PM   #176 
                                - I hate to be the one to break this to you - but you, and pretty much all of us - will never be rich  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:32 PM   #180 
                                   - You might not be invited.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:41 PM   #185 
                                      - Um, $300K is not rich  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:42 PM   #187 
                                         - Trajectory.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:46 PM   #191 
                                         - It doesn't really work that way  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:50 PM   #193 
                                         - It can, and sometimes does.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:53 PM   #195 
                                         - Good for you. I never said capitalism doesn't work for a minority of people.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 12:50 PM   #194 
                                         - It fails when you think like the other poster.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 12:53 PM   #196 
                                         - So are you saying those working for slave wages in China just need to work harder  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 12:56 PM   #197 
                                         - No.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 01:56 PM   #198 
                                         - Bullshit. China is as capitalist a nation you'll find on this planet.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 02:06 PM   #199 
                       - This computer is personal property.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 11:53 AM   #163 
              - The Soviet states were no more Socialist than Bush was Compassionate Conservatism  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:24 AM   #147 
        - Why Has Communism Failed to Protect the Workers in China from Said Evils?  AndyTiedye   Oct-10-11 10:51 PM   #89 
           - Oh please China abandoned even attempting to build socialism with Mao's death.  white_wolf   Oct-10-11 11:35 PM   #92 
           - Obviously. How Did That Happen?  AndyTiedye   Oct-10-11 11:59 PM   #95 
              - There is no "Communism" in China  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:27 AM   #149 
           - The former USSR is a better example.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 08:43 AM   #110 
              - Again - the USSR was not Communist  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:29 AM   #150 
                 - Yeah. The very early days of the USSR was the most free society on earth.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 11:41 AM   #155 
  - So the East Germans and the Soviets didn't make any great scientific discoveries? Or the Chinese?  anneboleyn   Oct-10-11 10:50 PM   #88 
  - Uh, no iphone without ARPANET, which was government funded. Many American innovations (human genome  anneboleyn   Oct-10-11 11:03 PM   #90 
  - K&R....n/t  unkachuck   Oct-10-11 09:36 PM   #79 
  - Yes, Marxism 101: there is no inherent correlation between labor and remuneration. "Surplus value."  anneboleyn   Oct-10-11 10:47 PM   #87 
  - +1  Starry Messenger   Oct-11-11 12:01 AM   #96 
  - +1  leftstreet   Oct-11-11 01:43 AM   #99 
  - Capitalism isn't the problem, Reganomics is the problem.  Initech   Oct-10-11 11:05 PM   #91 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-11-11 01:56 AM   #104 
  - Switzerland: capitalist, 3% unemployment, universal health care.  Nye Bevan   Oct-10-11 11:36 PM   #93 
  - capitalism with regulation did work.  Joe Fields   Oct-11-11 12:19 AM   #97 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-11-11 01:55 AM   #103 
  - Minimum Wage Petition to White House  Altruism   Oct-11-11 01:52 AM   #101 
  - Leave capitalism alone  walerosco   Oct-11-11 08:20 AM   #108 
  - There's something all ism's have in common  The2ndWheel   Oct-11-11 08:44 AM   #111 
  - toilet musings  Che Billy   Oct-11-11 09:49 AM   #114 
  - Well mused.  moondust   Oct-11-11 11:45 AM   #159 
  - Americans are a pro-capitalist people. Deal with it.  phleshdef   Oct-11-11 09:54 AM   #116 
  - Not entirely true.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 10:00 AM   #118 
  - I never said Americans don't want socialism as well.  phleshdef   Oct-11-11 11:07 AM   #138 
     - Agreed. Along with a sustainable safety-net.  itsallhappening   Oct-11-11 11:09 AM   #139 
  - Whether or not we sell the idea is irrelevant  Taverner   Oct-11-11 12:39 PM   #184 
  - And still it's 'anything but socialism'.  blindpig   Oct-11-11 10:16 AM   #124 
  - I think the OP is a fan of Debs's Socialist Party and the I.W.W.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 10:23 AM   #127 
     - He first read Marx while in prison in IL  Taverner   Oct-11-11 11:34 AM   #151 
        - Thanks. The more I read of him, the more I like him.  white_wolf   Oct-11-11 11:47 AM   #162 
  - Capitalism works.  Colonel Schwartz   Oct-11-11 10:35 AM   #133 
  - No, Not Really  NeedleCast   Oct-11-11 11:14 AM   #140 
  - Capitalism is fine. People suck. n/t  Cats Against Frist   Oct-11-11 11:16 AM   #141 
  - Ya can't get anymore reactionary than that.  blindpig   Oct-11-11 12:07 PM   #166 
  - Capitalism actually has two aspects that work together to maximize the damage.  GliderGuider   Oct-11-11 11:35 AM   #152 
  - Actually when "We tried Capitalism with regulation" it worked pretty well  ThomWV   Oct-11-11 11:47 AM   #161 
     - The problem with the "Capitalism works with regulation"  socialist_n_TN   Oct-11-11 02:44 PM   #202 

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