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Reply #80: Good question. The 4th amendment is the most obvious [View All]

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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Good question. The 4th amendment is the most obvious
part of the Constitution these searches of people most intimate possessions, their bodies, violate. To conduct such a search, the 4th Amendment requires probable cause and then a warrant.

I think the 5th Amendment is also violated as no one is required to help the government implicate them in a crime and we as citizens have a right to 'take the fifth' if and when we believe we are being coerced into doing so. People are not suspects in a crime just because they buy an airline ticket, yet this is how they are being treated. In fact, they are being treated in some cases as if they have already been convicted of a crime.

When Tyner decided to leave the airport, to in effect exercise his 5th Amendment rights and protect his 4th amendment rights, the TSA threatened him. He was threatened with an $11,000.00 fine and/or possible arrest. Although when he asked if he was being arrested because he wanted to leave, it seems neither the agents nor the police were willing to put that into words. So clearly someone knew that they did not have the right to threaten an innocent person with arrest for refusing to forfeit his rights.

This battle has been going on for six years, and there are lawsuits filed against the use of these machines right now with more being filed since they were actually installed. Several of the suits claim that the machines should be banned as they violate the 4th Amendment.

There are other laws that I think may be violated also such as the right to freely travel from state to state with government interference.

The fact that these machines only affect those traveling within the U.S. while people coming from overseas are not subjected to them, is just plain illogical and proves they are not about security.

The ACLU has received over 900 complaints so far and on their site has pointed out that there are no laws governing the use of these tactics, machines/patdowns, only TSA policy. So it looks like it would be hard for the TSA to defend against lawsuits based on the law.

Two pilots have also filed lawsuits about two weeks ago, and the TSA has backed down on forcing pilots to comply with these policies. The pilots fought back and the TSA backed down, that suggests that the TSA realizes it has no standing to force these policies on law-abiding citizens.

And now, NY and NJ are introducing legislation to ban their use in their states. The move is a bi-partisan move in both states, with Democratic legisator, Greenfield saying that 'they set a dangerous precedent' and 'we do not want them in our state'.

When the people stand up, oppressive government tactics can be pushed back, IF they do it before it's too late.

It will be interesting to watch the results of all these lawsuits though. I hope the courts will settle the matter once and for all.

Thanks for your post, I am basing my response on what I have read from experts on Constitutional rights, sorry not to provide links, but I am rushing right now and am responding from memory.

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  -Jeremy Scahill:"The article my magazine, The Nation, published about John Tyner is a shameful smear" sabrina 1  Nov-26-10 02:06 AM   #0 
  - great post, k&r.  krabigirl   Nov-26-10 02:28 AM   #1 
  - I have known The Nation was compromised for years  molly77   Nov-26-10 01:51 PM   #43 
     - Can't disagree with you. They are not independent journalists  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 07:11 PM   #55 
  - Reporters crave access to folks in power more than just about anything. If the Nation thinks  McCamy Taylor   Nov-26-10 03:41 AM   #2 
  - Yes, I think many 'journalists' will do anything to gain access and  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 06:31 AM   #7 
  - K&R  Richard Steele   Nov-26-10 04:09 AM   #3 
  - K&R Awesome debunking, Sabrina! I've got one question, though....  Turborama   Nov-26-10 04:48 AM   #4 
  - Hey, Turborama ~  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 05:15 AM   #6 
     - Hiya, thanks for the reminder. That really makes sense, in more ways than one these days.  Turborama   Nov-26-10 09:12 AM   #19 
        - Lol, well I do that also. But don't stop!  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 01:03 PM   #40 
  - schop en recommanderen  Gravel Democrat   Nov-26-10 05:12 AM   #5 
  - K & R n/t  malaise   Nov-26-10 06:36 AM   #8 
  - I used to love The Nation.  EFerrari   Nov-26-10 07:00 AM   #9 
  - I think so too.  avaistheone1   Nov-26-10 10:07 AM   #22 
  - Sure seems like shameful gate keeping doesn't it?  pauldp   Nov-26-10 02:57 PM   #45 
  - David Corn effectively shut down any discussion of the Ohio 2004 vote  EFerrari   Nov-26-10 07:16 PM   #57 
     - Same thing happened with Moveon, Daily Kos and a few other  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 07:43 PM   #60 
        - That's a good question.  EFerrari   Nov-26-10 07:52 PM   #61 
           - Yes, I know, that was when I first discovered DU and used to read  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 08:05 PM   #62 
  - Let the Nation go the way of ACORN  RufusTFirefly   Nov-26-10 09:49 PM   #66 
  - What comparison are you making? ACORN was targeted by wingnuts.  EFerrari   Nov-26-10 09:53 PM   #67 
     - EF, I admire almost all your posts, but...  RufusTFirefly   Nov-26-10 09:56 PM   #68 
        - I wouldn't want to be responsible for such a directive.  EFerrari   Nov-26-10 10:10 PM   #69 
           - Actually, I don't disagree with that take  RufusTFirefly   Nov-26-10 10:16 PM   #71 
              - Agreed. It's hard not to participate in our national PTSD,  EFerrari   Nov-26-10 10:23 PM   #73 
  - Actually, that's exactly my take on the Nation.  RufusTFirefly   Nov-26-10 10:19 PM   #72 
     - There are a bunch of brilliant people writing but if you ask me  EFerrari   Nov-26-10 10:49 PM   #74 
  - That article was slimey, McCarthyite crap  Bluenorthwest   Nov-26-10 07:13 AM   #10 
  - I am hoping that this incident and the reaction to it from across  sabrina 1   Nov-27-10 12:46 AM   #77 
  - Not only a lousy political smear..  sendero   Nov-26-10 07:24 AM   #11 
  - Actually,  chervilant   Nov-26-10 09:43 AM   #21 
  - 'on the wrong side of the issue as well'. Exactly  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 02:17 PM   #44 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-26-10 07:31 AM   #12 
  - It seems to me that the Tea-baggers have been successful at  fasttense   Nov-26-10 07:37 AM   #13 
  - Good point about using the fake grass-roots movement to discredit  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 07:43 AM   #14 
     - Great work sabrina1.  avaistheone1   Nov-26-10 10:09 AM   #23 
     - +++  DemReadingDU   Nov-26-10 10:11 AM   #24 
  - one of the only handful of times I've rec'd a thread  TorchTheWitch   Nov-26-10 08:42 AM   #15 
  - Thank you, I appreciate that! n/t  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 11:06 AM   #31 
  - I read Tyner's blog posts going back several months, and decided not  leveymg   Nov-26-10 08:49 AM   #16 
  - K&R I thought it was a hit piece too.  Tatiana   Nov-26-10 08:58 AM   #17 
  - Hats Off to Scahill  NashVegas   Nov-26-10 09:05 AM   #18 
  - K & R and thanks for posting this.  chill_wind   Nov-26-10 09:36 AM   #20 
  - Yes. As is the attempt to defend TSA policy by associating opposition with the Koch brothers.  JackRiddler   Nov-26-10 10:14 AM   #25 
  - So, do ya'll see how it works?  Gold Metal Flake   Nov-26-10 10:17 AM   #26 
  - f 'n a -- k 'n r  nashville_brook   Nov-26-10 10:19 AM   #27 
  - HUGE K & R !!!  WillyT   Nov-26-10 10:23 AM   #28 
  - Even excellent liberal magazines make mistakes, but it's hard to imagine  bertman   Nov-26-10 10:49 AM   #29 
  - Yes, but what is striking about the article is that  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 10:57 AM   #30 
     - National publications such as magazines and newspapers are usually  bertman   Nov-26-10 11:10 AM   #32 
        - Nearly every article I've read supporting the use, even if  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 11:35 AM   #34 
  - K&R! -nt  Poboy   Nov-26-10 11:33 AM   #33 
  - The two Nation article writers respond to Greenwald. I don't see a response to Scahill yet.  madfloridian   Nov-26-10 11:40 AM   #35 
  - Thanks, they will have to respond to many people.  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 11:47 AM   #36 
  - Finally got a chance to read their response to Greenwald.  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 01:16 PM   #41 
     - I think the term you want is "half-wittedly".  EFerrari   Nov-26-10 07:05 PM   #54 
  - Everyone kick-a-lot!  JackRiddler   Nov-26-10 11:48 AM   #37 
  - Hell yeah!...................k/r  pauldp   Nov-26-10 12:08 PM   #38 
  - K&R (n/t)  ProudDad   Nov-26-10 12:45 PM   #39 
  - Can't recommend this highly enough  somone   Nov-26-10 01:22 PM   #42 
  - This is important. K&R. nt  woo me with science   Nov-26-10 03:02 PM   #46 
  - Well said...Do supporters of the TSA's "security" tactics think it only involves air travel?  GoddessOfGuinness   Nov-26-10 04:55 PM   #47 
  - These measures will never guarantee our safety, because well... they are not designed for it.  liberation   Nov-26-10 05:07 PM   #48 
     - The well-being of the common American is clearly  GoddessOfGuinness   Nov-26-10 05:52 PM   #49 
  - K&R Wow, what an article.  Mimosa   Nov-26-10 06:39 PM   #50 
  - Where does it say he stands up for gay rights?  veganlush   Nov-26-10 06:41 PM   #51 
  - Read more carefully.  Mimosa   Nov-26-10 06:44 PM   #52 
  - right. i read that.  veganlush   Nov-26-10 10:52 PM   #76 
  - See Mimosa's post below. He mentioned list of things the government  sabrina 1   Nov-26-10 07:15 PM   #56 
  - Fuckity-fuck, politics has become "sports team" BS. Policy be damned.  Odin2005   Nov-26-10 07:03 PM   #53 
  - Been that way here forever  TorchTheWitch   Nov-26-10 08:29 PM   #64 
  - k&r  defendandprotect   Nov-26-10 07:18 PM   #58 
  - Learning everytime I come here  kgnu_fan   Nov-26-10 07:27 PM   #59 
  - A big K&R.  20score   Nov-26-10 08:28 PM   #63 
  - I stopped by subscription 5 or 6 yrs ago  Duppers   Nov-26-10 08:31 PM   #65 
  - How very, very sad.....The Nation was, at one time, one of the more reliable sources...  BrklynLiberal   Nov-26-10 10:10 PM   #70 
  - Happy to be the 100th rec  Oilwellian   Nov-26-10 10:52 PM   #75 
  - Not kicked enough  Gold Metal Flake   Nov-27-10 10:14 AM   #78 
  - A Question . . .  GrpCaptMandrake   Nov-28-10 07:59 PM   #79 
     - Good question. The 4th amendment is the most obvious  sabrina 1   Nov-29-10 02:13 AM   #80 

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