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Reply #205: What doesn't work with the current policy? [View All]

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scribble Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 12:38 PM
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205. What doesn't work with the current policy?
On Usenet political newsgroups, I notice that trolls and flames always appear on any message list and most posters and lurkers just don't read them. I don't think DU has a big problem here, compared to those old Usenet posting days.

Posting useful, on-topic messages works better than moderation to take care of trolls and flames. On newsgroups, I find that making sure we post five to eight good messages a day tend to "shape" the message list in a newsgroup, and strongly discourages off-topic messages of any kind. They still appear; just not as many of them, and a useful post encourages a flame or troll to stay on-topic.

Most threads end after three or four back-and-forth replies... longer threads tend to shrink to just two or three contributors and don't tend bother anybody else, especially if those replies are just back-and-forth flames. The flames just became buried.

Over-moderation works better than anything I know, to kill a newsgroup, an email list, or a message thread -- whether it is on Usenet, Yahoo, or a political website. Even good third-party posters are left feeling "chilled" when they see a post has been deleted. This mild, temporary dismay decrease their posting frequency. If a good poster sees moderation that leaves him/her "chilled" more than two or three times in the space of about a month; they tend to go away and not come back.

So: I personally don't think that a complicated moderation process will work. I think that posters will take care of most trolls and flames in the course of posting. You can't eliminate all trolls and flames from a popular thread; only control their frequency. I think your current moderation methods already control this.


I know that DU has problems that newsgroups and email lists do not have, and threads here still probably need some moderation. I think that DU already does a good job of recognizing harmful and threatening messages without giving undue power, either to grammarian-moderators or to the kiddies and krypto-Republicans they chase through the threads.


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  -Visualize a Democratic Underground where rule-breaking posts are no longer deleted by the moderators EarlG  Nov-16-10 12:12 PM   #0 
  - really/  AngryAmish   Nov-16-10 12:13 PM   #1 
  - Hey, did you get your black belt?  MadHound   Nov-16-10 12:13 PM   #2 
  - I only have a black belt in Tekken  EarlG   Nov-16-10 12:15 PM   #4 
     - If we don't edit our posts, are you guys gonna kick our ass?  Dr.Phool   Nov-16-10 01:49 PM   #69 
     - YAY for Elad!!!  bigwillq   Nov-16-10 04:53 PM   #115 
     - Good one!  CLANG   Nov-16-10 08:29 PM   #133 
     - "Oh No! Dad got Feng Wei!"  The Doctor.   Nov-17-10 10:53 AM   #197 
  - Sounds like more work for you guys but  walldude   Nov-16-10 12:15 PM   #3 
  - Let me be the first K&R  SharonRB   Nov-16-10 12:15 PM   #5 
  - what do I think?  northzax   Nov-16-10 12:16 PM   #6 
  - I agree - a great idea.  appal_jack   Nov-16-10 03:59 PM   #107 
  - Sounds fair to me. n/t  CakeGrrl   Nov-16-10 12:16 PM   #7 
  - Sounds like a good idea  PBS Poll-435   Nov-16-10 12:16 PM   #8 
  - Great idea; I've actually posted things I regret posting, gotten responses before  blondeatlast   Nov-16-10 12:16 PM   #9 
  - We did the "cool down" thing in 2004 and it didn't go particularly well.  Renew Deal   Nov-16-10 12:32 PM   #23 
     - I don't think it punishes for deleting vs editing  tkmorris   Nov-16-10 12:54 PM   #38 
     - Disagree. I think self deleting rather than being willing to move towards more civil debate,  laughingliberal   Nov-16-10 01:08 PM   #48 
  - I think this is a very good idea.  CaliforniaPeggy   Nov-16-10 12:17 PM   #10 
  - Great idea. I like it. nt  sufrommich   Nov-16-10 12:17 PM   #11 
  - You guys are awesome, thanks for this.  no limit   Nov-16-10 12:18 PM   #12 
  - What's important is this--  blondeatlast   Nov-16-10 12:19 PM   #13 
  - Thank you! Rec'd. I like this, it's galling not to know why, or even if, your post was deleted  Catherina   Nov-16-10 12:19 PM   #14 
  - great way to encourage ownership of one's own words.  nashville_brook   Nov-16-10 12:20 PM   #15 
  - Sounds like a good idea.  Arkansas Granny   Nov-16-10 12:20 PM   #16 
  - I welcome this change. It sounds very constructive.  ixion   Nov-16-10 12:21 PM   #17 
  - I donated after I read Skinner's post earlier because I welcomed the changes.  CTyankee   Nov-16-10 12:21 PM   #18 
  - Sounds fine, but I would like to point out a minor bug...I mentioned this  TK421   Nov-16-10 12:23 PM   #19 
  - I'm not familiar with that PM bug  EarlG   Nov-16-10 12:36 PM   #26 
     - Got it, thanks...n/t  TK421   Nov-16-10 12:39 PM   #28 
     - I think the NEW MESSAGES indicator only shows up on the main pages (Latest, Greatest, etc.)...  Make7   Nov-17-10 12:02 AM   #166 
  - The Time-Out is brilliant. nt  glitch   Nov-16-10 12:26 PM   #20 
  - Why do you want to make members and moderators jump through so many hoops?  Renew Deal   Nov-16-10 12:29 PM   #21 
  - I think most members already 'self moderate'  leftstreet   Nov-16-10 02:30 PM   #91 
  - It sounds like people will be able to break the rules before they follow them. n/t  LoZoccolo   Nov-16-10 12:30 PM   #22 
  - i wonder if this applies to replies?  boston bean   Nov-16-10 12:42 PM   #31 
  - That's probably still preferable to the way it is now  EarlG   Nov-16-10 12:56 PM   #42 
     - I do see what you're saying, and I've previously held back on ideas about  LoZoccolo   Nov-16-10 01:03 PM   #46 
        - I'm glad to hear that  EarlG   Nov-16-10 01:22 PM   #55 
  - Brilliant.  David Zephyr   Nov-16-10 12:32 PM   #24 
  - Is what you're saying different than what LoZoccolo is saying?  Renew Deal   Nov-16-10 12:35 PM   #25 
  - Except that I do not think that that is a good thing.  LoZoccolo   Nov-16-10 12:39 PM   #29 
     - I don't care for that one either  Renew Deal   Nov-16-10 12:41 PM   #30 
        - I can see that; people would start new threads to continue the ones from which they were banished.  LoZoccolo   Nov-16-10 12:55 PM   #41 
           - I'm not sure about your "dedicated partisan" forum idea...or maybe I have a different  CTyankee   Nov-16-10 01:31 PM   #63 
              - Here's my view of what I'd like a "dedicated partisan" forum to be.  LoZoccolo   Nov-16-10 02:29 PM   #88 
                 - It's a good idea. I like a forum where there are constructive suggestions made, not complaints.  CTyankee   Nov-16-10 04:26 PM   #110 
  - Some were TS'd for less. Purges are never pretty, and the aftermath  John Commonsense   Nov-16-10 09:12 PM   #145 
     - EVERYONE who was td's feels its unfair. otherwise they would have to admit to being wrong  La Lioness Priyanka   Nov-16-10 09:16 PM   #146 
        - And those who were TS'd unfairly? Do they have to admit being wrong as well?  John Commonsense   Nov-16-10 11:15 PM   #160 
           - generally speaking i think du takes far too long to TS, rarely have i seen it be far too quick  La Lioness Priyanka   Nov-17-10 06:39 PM   #212 
  - Like.  emilyg   Nov-16-10 12:36 PM   #27 
  - That's ridiculous. I can't believe you are doing this.  KittyWampus   Nov-16-10 12:42 PM   #32 
  - Perhaps you could share your reasoning?  tkmorris   Nov-16-10 12:56 PM   #45 
  - I think this iw worth a test drive.  Ozymanithrax   Nov-16-10 12:44 PM   #33 
  - I'd like to see some editing/formatting upgrades.  immoderate   Nov-16-10 12:50 PM   #34 
  - I would SO love autoformatting here.  Hissyspit   Nov-16-10 12:56 PM   #44 
  - Yes, yes, yes! nt  blondeatlast   Nov-16-10 01:05 PM   #47 
  - Good idea, but I have a suggestion re: the PM's.....  A HERETIC I AM   Nov-16-10 12:51 PM   #35 
  - Agreed; I spend virtually all my time in GD; that would be very helpful, IMHO. nt  blondeatlast   Nov-16-10 01:36 PM   #65 
  - Will be an interesting experiment for you  snooper2   Nov-16-10 12:52 PM   #36 
  - Visualize whirled peas.  damntexdem   Nov-16-10 12:52 PM   #37 
  - I don't know I like this.  Behind the Aegis   Nov-16-10 12:55 PM   #39 
  - =1  foxfeet   Nov-16-10 02:06 PM   #78 
  - I like this idea! (Of course, I'm not modding this term... heheheh)  TygrBright   Nov-16-10 12:55 PM   #40 
  - it may take some time getting use to what is now not acceptable  seabeyond   Nov-16-10 12:56 PM   #43 
  - I think it's worth a test drive.  myrna minx   Nov-16-10 01:09 PM   #49 
  - It sounds extremely fair: the second chance, time away from posting.  pacalo   Nov-16-10 01:09 PM   #50 
  - You are making extra work for yourself. Enforce the rules or don't. nt  AtomicKitten   Nov-16-10 01:11 PM   #51 
  - Well, it's better than the current system, BUT.....  MicaelS   Nov-16-10 01:11 PM   #52 
  - The 60 minute window doesn't apply to this system  EarlG   Nov-16-10 01:18 PM   #53 
     - OK, that sounds good,  MicaelS   Nov-16-10 01:21 PM   #54 
     - Yeah, this is something we've been considering on and off for a long time  EarlG   Nov-16-10 01:25 PM   #59 
        - Thank you very much. n/t  MicaelS   Nov-16-10 01:27 PM   #60 
     - Thank you, time is my concern here since post and get off for the rest of the day  uppityperson   Nov-16-10 02:15 PM   #80 
  - The problem, as I see it, is that a lot of the deleted posts are essentially content-free.  Warren DeMontague   Nov-16-10 01:24 PM   #56 
  - But some of the posts that are deleted do clearly show what a jerk or homophobe  Lex   Nov-16-10 01:31 PM   #62 
  - O/T, but I *so* want a smiley of someone stirring a murky pot.  gkhouston   Nov-16-10 02:05 PM   #76 
  - That's true  EarlG   Nov-16-10 01:32 PM   #64 
     - Okay, I missed that part.  Warren DeMontague   Nov-16-10 02:18 PM   #81 
     - is the "whatever" referring to sexism here, because a lot of mods look the other way  bettyellen   Nov-16-10 07:04 PM   #125 
  - K & R nm  laughingliberal   Nov-16-10 01:24 PM   #57 
  - "Democrats as well as the robust criticism of Democrats from a liberal perspective."  LynneSin   Nov-16-10 01:25 PM   #58 
  - Maybe it should read center-left/liberal?  GreenPartyVoter   Nov-18-10 03:12 PM   #217 
  - Sounds good enough to give it a shot, to me. nt.  Hosnon   Nov-16-10 01:28 PM   #61 
  - K&R  Angry Dragon   Nov-16-10 01:36 PM   #66 
  - I predict abuse of this feature.  JVS   Nov-16-10 01:39 PM   #67 
  - LOL, bet you didn't have to break a sweat to make *that* prediction. n/t  gkhouston   Nov-16-10 01:57 PM   #73 
  - Recommended.  H2O Man   Nov-16-10 01:43 PM   #68 
  - ah, you and your concerns can go take a flying fuck elsewhere!!!@#!  TK421   Nov-16-10 08:08 PM   #129 
  - Nice.  Iggo   Nov-16-10 08:53 PM   #139 
  - So this would temporarily lock & hide an OP with an issue?  yowzayowzayowza   Nov-16-10 01:51 PM   #70 
  - That brings up the question of what happens with threads that would be locked now  muriel_volestrangler   Nov-16-10 04:05 PM   #109 
  - I have no objection to trying it  struggle4progress   Nov-16-10 01:53 PM   #71 
  - Will responses to the offending post be visible during the "cool-off"  blondeatlast   Nov-16-10 01:54 PM   #72 
  - This is a good point. If someone spawns a semi-inflammatory subthread, you  gkhouston   Nov-16-10 02:00 PM   #74 
  - You guys think of everything  NNN0LHI   Nov-16-10 02:03 PM   #75 
  - Well, they kind of SEE everything--and act on it with reason  blondeatlast   Nov-16-10 02:05 PM   #77 
  - This is getting waaaaaay too complicated.  JuniperLea   Nov-16-10 02:07 PM   #79 
  - I would not want to be here. I do not want to be part of a site that lets  jwirr   Nov-16-10 02:21 PM   #82 
  - Actually, disruptors would have a much harder time,  LWolf   Nov-16-10 08:34 PM   #135 
  - That's how I see it. nt  laughingliberal   Nov-16-10 10:55 PM   #155 
  - Very interesting. Intelligent discussion flies out the window when personal insults begin.  saracat   Nov-17-10 02:14 PM   #207 
  - I've Had Posts Deleted  marketbreakaway   Nov-16-10 02:22 PM   #83 
  - I like the edit request thingy.  lonestarnot   Nov-16-10 02:24 PM   #84 
  - Sounds good.  TexasObserver   Nov-16-10 02:25 PM   #85 
  - Good idea, man you guys are full of great ideas!  Rex   Nov-16-10 02:28 PM   #86 
  - Incredibly awesome!!!! Best DU change EVER!  obxhead   Nov-16-10 02:28 PM   #87 
  - ack double post EOM  pitohui   Nov-16-10 02:30 PM   #89 
  - i think it sounds like a real hassle  pitohui   Nov-16-10 02:30 PM   #90 
  - lol  Cronus Protagonist   Nov-16-10 02:58 PM   #98 
  - If someone didn't return to DU for some time, it'd be rather like it is now  muriel_volestrangler   Nov-16-10 03:49 PM   #104 
  - Sounds like a very possibly constructive solution, Worth the try.  chill_wind   Nov-16-10 02:32 PM   #92 
  - I applaud this approach, but...  SDuderstadt   Nov-16-10 02:36 PM   #93 
  - I love you man!  WingDinger   Nov-16-10 02:45 PM   #94 
  - Damn, that sounds like a lot of work  quinnox   Nov-16-10 02:47 PM   #95 
  - I sincerely want to thank you.  Joe Fields   Nov-16-10 02:47 PM   #96 
  - AFAIK the "rule violations" I've been accused of, were in the minds of the moderators  Cronus Protagonist   Nov-16-10 02:51 PM   #97 
  - *snort*  blondeatlast   Nov-16-10 08:12 PM   #130 
  - Or #3, Give Skittles a job  Hawkeye-X   Nov-16-10 03:00 PM   #99 
  - +44-6  taterguy   Nov-16-10 04:50 PM   #113 
  - Yes INDEED!  Adsos Letter   Nov-18-10 03:54 PM   #218 
  - A fair hearing is fine. I like this change a lot.  herbm   Nov-16-10 03:11 PM   #100 
  - So you are not just going to ban people without at least giving them a heads up  Peacetrain   Nov-16-10 03:16 PM   #101 
  - I think he said (further up the thread) that  Wednesdays   Nov-16-10 10:50 PM   #154 
  - One potential problem -  Geoff R. Casavant   Nov-16-10 03:39 PM   #102 
  - That sounds a good solution to me  muriel_volestrangler   Nov-16-10 03:56 PM   #105 
  - K&R! For one of the most important DU posts ever...  Rhiannon12866   Nov-16-10 03:48 PM   #103 
  - Thank you Skinner! What a brilliant idea!  Odin2005   Nov-16-10 03:58 PM   #106 
  - You should have a function where, for a fee, donors can view the pms between the mod and the poster.  rug   Nov-16-10 04:00 PM   #108 
  - I like that idea. The mod's identity could be concealed.  gkhouston   Nov-16-10 08:34 PM   #134 
  - See #116.  rug   Nov-16-10 09:01 PM   #141 
  - And for a slightly lesser fee, you can see the mod or the poster posing naked.  Wednesdays   Nov-16-10 10:55 PM   #156 
  - Will this happen in the I/P forum as well?  Violet_Crumble   Nov-16-10 04:32 PM   #111 
  - I approve, and I admire your courage and industry.  bemildred   Nov-16-10 04:46 PM   #112 
  - Brilliant plan!  Toucano   Nov-16-10 04:52 PM   #114 
  - What if someone disagrees with the moderator?  Cronus Protagonist   Nov-16-10 05:22 PM   #116 
  - Yeah, it might sometimes be nice to discuss it.  PeaceNikki   Nov-16-10 05:31 PM   #120 
  - Sounds great. n/t  Tx4obama   Nov-16-10 05:27 PM   #117 
  - Sounds like you folks have put some..  The Uncola   Nov-16-10 05:29 PM   #118 
  - This sound suspiciously like the MPAA  LawnLover   Nov-16-10 05:30 PM   #119 
  - From a mod point of view, and only my point of view, I'm not speaking for all mods...  Kerrytravelers   Nov-16-10 06:08 PM   #121 
  - It looks great in principle. Try it and see if how it works in practice. nt  GliderGuider   Nov-16-10 06:14 PM   #122 
  - Brilliant! Very fair and adult response to the problem! Thanks...  ProudDad   Nov-16-10 06:41 PM   #123 
  - From a Behavioral Point of View,  On the Road   Nov-16-10 07:02 PM   #124 
  - And what happens if the member is no longer on the board when the request is made, say bedtime?  DainBramaged   Nov-16-10 07:06 PM   #126 
  - KICK. ASS.  WilliamPitt   Nov-16-10 07:11 PM   #127 
  - Great idea, IMO, and worth a try n/t  pipi_k   Nov-16-10 07:19 PM   #128 
  - Heh, behavior modification 101  flying rabbit   Nov-16-10 08:23 PM   #131 
  - Make it 24 hours. People (including me) will get the message.  CLANG   Nov-16-10 08:27 PM   #132 
  - I love it :)  varelse   Nov-16-10 08:38 PM   #136 
  - I think it will work.  crim son   Nov-16-10 08:46 PM   #137 
  - Excellent! n/t  krispos42   Nov-16-10 08:49 PM   #138 
  - i think 15 min is not a deterrent. at the very least it wouldnt deter me  La Lioness Priyanka   Nov-16-10 08:58 PM   #140 
  - Most forums I visit hae a "Dont be a jerk" rule  pasto76   Nov-16-10 09:01 PM   #142 
  - Vizualize whirled peas too.  RoccoR5955   Nov-16-10 09:02 PM   #143 
  - I think an increase in item 1) is going to lead to a decrease in item 2).  harun   Nov-16-10 09:03 PM   #144 
  - Good  WolverineDG   Nov-16-10 09:30 PM   #147 
  - We do actually cite at least one rule for removing posts, etc,. when discussing an alert.  Kerrytravelers   Nov-17-10 12:21 AM   #167 
     - I agree. This is a very significant improvement.  TexasObserver   Nov-17-10 03:38 AM   #173 
     - I never received any such notice  WolverineDG   Nov-17-10 06:42 AM   #177 
        - It's always recorded along with the deleted post, for mods and admin to see  muriel_volestrangler   Nov-17-10 08:48 AM   #185 
        - Well, that was my experience  WolverineDG   Nov-17-10 10:49 AM   #196 
        - No notices were ever sent.  Kerrytravelers   Nov-17-10 11:13 AM   #200 
  - I pretty unambiguously hate this idea.  Chan790   Nov-16-10 09:39 PM   #148 
  - I wish more liberals agreed with you - I know I do.  theFrankFactor   Nov-17-10 07:34 AM   #181 
  - Hmmm...I'm not really seeing...  pipi_k   Nov-17-10 09:40 AM   #189 
  - Question  tavalon   Nov-16-10 09:44 PM   #149 
  - I like it.  klook   Nov-16-10 10:12 PM   #150 
  - dude, haven't found work since sept 2008  DeadEyeDyck   Nov-16-10 10:12 PM   #151 
  - So you can't be uncivil to other posters but you can say just about any uncivil thing about  Pirate Smile   Nov-16-10 10:13 PM   #152 
  - Skinner covered that in his thread. Here's the link in case you missed it.  EFerrari   Nov-16-10 11:55 PM   #165 
  - Question: Can we have robust criticism of Liberals from a Democratic  WonderGrunion   Nov-16-10 10:33 PM   #153 
  - Thank You.  alittlelark   Nov-16-10 11:01 PM   #157 
  - I support this wholeheartedly, in theory  Wednesdays   Nov-16-10 11:03 PM   #158 
  - If the poster isn't told what rule they are violating  EFerrari   Nov-16-10 11:53 PM   #164 
     - AFAIK, The plan is that they will be.  Dead_Parrot   Nov-17-10 04:42 AM   #175 
        - I've been here 7+ years and I have never had that happen.  Renew Deal   Nov-17-10 07:29 AM   #180 
        - It has been done.  Kerrytravelers   Nov-17-10 06:30 PM   #211 
        - Good to know.  EFerrari   Nov-17-10 11:17 AM   #201 
  - Does this mean I can talk about that rash on my cock now?  HEyHEY   Nov-16-10 11:07 PM   #159 
  - Throw 'em in The Penalty Box till they pick up their own poop! I like it!  Hassin Bin Sober   Nov-16-10 11:18 PM   #161 
  - +1 nt  laughingliberal   Nov-17-10 09:58 AM   #193 
  - Great idea! K&R n/t  pengillian101   Nov-16-10 11:34 PM   #162 
  - Excellent idea. Hope the moderators have time to implement it properly n/t  eridani   Nov-16-10 11:44 PM   #163 
  - What about when your post gets sent to Israel-Palestine even though it is  McCamy Taylor   Nov-17-10 12:50 AM   #168 
  - Too bad you can't make it retroactive to the archives.  Jamastiene   Nov-17-10 12:55 AM   #169 
  - sounds intriguing -- a few questions/comments about subthreads  fishwax   Nov-17-10 01:00 AM   #170 
  - Good point. n/t  Shining Jack   Nov-17-10 01:07 AM   #171 
  - Sounds to me like an IMPROVEMENT to the system. TRY IT!  Celtic Merlin   Nov-17-10 01:54 AM   #172 
  - Freedom of speech!  riverdale   Nov-17-10 03:14 PM   #209 
     - You prefer the current method?  Celtic Merlin   Nov-17-10 03:50 PM   #210 
  - As Pete Seeger once said  DFW   Nov-17-10 04:16 AM   #174 
  - OK, sounds fair  era veteran   Nov-17-10 06:02 AM   #176 
  - Makes sense, it's a fair way to go.  DemocraticPilgrim   Nov-17-10 06:43 AM   #178 
  - Sounds good on paper  zipplewrath   Nov-17-10 07:25 AM   #179 
  - I'm fascinated, and eager to see how this plays out.  LWolf   Nov-17-10 07:40 AM   #182 
  - Sounds do-able  Plucketeer   Nov-17-10 07:47 AM   #183 
  - While I applaud all of your hard work...  Javaman   Nov-17-10 08:00 AM   #184 
  - Wow...  MilitarismFTL   Nov-17-10 08:48 AM   #186 
  - What you guys should do is stop moderating AT ALL for a week.  Evoman   Nov-17-10 09:16 AM   #187 
  - The new standards should make DU stronger and  yellerpup   Nov-17-10 09:23 AM   #188 
  - excellent idea...  madrchsod   Nov-17-10 09:43 AM   #190 
  - Excellent idea.  mikelgb   Nov-17-10 09:48 AM   #191 
  - any time you give yourself more options, you can do a better job nt  durkermaker   Nov-17-10 09:57 AM   #192 
  - I like the idea. Emphasizes what makes DU different  garthranzz   Nov-17-10 10:16 AM   #194 
  - Maybe this should have been a poll.  LiberalAndProud   Nov-17-10 10:22 AM   #195 
  - Not bad, but you should NOT have a penalty period  grahamhgreen   Nov-17-10 10:58 AM   #198 
  - Excellent!! The only improvement I would put on that is to put such posts in their own forum.  patrice   Nov-17-10 10:59 AM   #199 
  - Sounds very fair, but more work for the Admins. K&R eom  BlueCaliDem   Nov-17-10 11:43 AM   #202 
  - May well lead to longer, more thought out posts.  The Green Manalishi   Nov-17-10 12:01 PM   #203 
  - I like it and look forward to it's implementation.  John Q. Citizen   Nov-17-10 12:17 PM   #204 
  - What doesn't work with the current policy?  scribble   Nov-17-10 12:38 PM   #205 
  - These policies would be an improvement  dreamnightwind   Nov-17-10 01:59 PM   #206 
  - "You spill it, you wipe it up".  dixiegrrrrl   Nov-17-10 02:37 PM   #208 
  - LOVE the very sane reasoning behind these's a very affirming and caring  defendandprotect   Nov-17-10 08:15 PM   #213 
  - I think all messages should stay in place with a few changes  ecstatic   Nov-18-10 06:13 AM   #214 
  - Love it!  LiberalLovinLug   Nov-18-10 03:04 PM   #215 
  - LOVE IT AND I WILL DONATE NEXT WEEK!  Dr Fate   Nov-18-10 03:10 PM   #216 

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